BS: America has LOST THE WAR

Subject: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM

There is already a Billion dollar monument in Washington DC to our defeat. The National Airport is closed indefitetly.
Rather than immediately equip flights with any viable defense (that could defeat a boxcutter)it is virtually business as usual at 40% flight reductions, 100,000 layoffs and bankruptcies. There is already a defiling/defeat of our Constitution. It took Walter Cronkite this morning to explain that the Bush administration policy of disallowing any journalist or civilian cameras access to "the war" as well as the rules for search and seizure suspended without so much as a review board.
We have declared war on John Doe. The Supream Court selected President said "we will destroy all evil in the world, Were gonna git those terrist folks, huntem,smokem,bringem ta justice dead or alive...in our crusade", and many other stammering utterences so childish as to qualify as a new low in history. In the use/misuse of the english language we seem to be most forgiving.
It is forcast our strong suit will be staying power of 15 or more years at war. As the WTC is now referred to with 3 or more adjectives , by the time a cessation of hostilities is ever achieved, there will be no adjectives for the WTC since it will be overshadowed my many worse events.
America has already lost because of the lost freedom that was so anxiously surrendered due to the "horrible senseless trajedy" at the WTC.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:44 AM

No, we havn't lost, yet, the Sears tower still stands, the White House is unscathed, the statue of Paul Bunyon in Bangor Maine is still there.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM

Donuel:

This is a stupid thing to say and do.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:00 AM

Now, now Amos. It's not nice to tell someone they've done something stupid.
Unless you're a talking to some one who doesn't agree with you who happens to be a little right of center.
They're fair game.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:06 AM

Also remember Amos, never try to teach a pig to sing.
It wastes your time and it annoys the pig.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: flattop
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:09 AM

Use your brain Donuel. Take your time. Read a bit of history. Look at how much of America that hasn't been crippled. People, including leaders will adjust from day to day.

Remember what what's-his-name said to John Travolta, "When we were good we were never as good as they thought we were. When we bad we were never as bad as they thought we were." Walter Concrete won't have the last word. One of us will argue. Given margins of errors and margins of cheating on both sides, Bush is as legitimate as the other guy and he might be better in a crisis. Who knows?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Clancy
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:25 AM

We haven't even started. The only way we can lose the war against terrorism is by betraying our own principles of decency, fairness and justice. Someone has been watching too much talk show TV over the last week...

Bush is our President. I didn't vote for him, but I'm not asking for a recount now, Donuel. We don't need to bomb Afganistan into the stone age...they're already there, and anyone who could fly, drive, run, limp or crawl has already abandoned the Taliban's bankrupt regime.

There's an overreaction that comes with the sudden realization that, hey, maybe we SHOULD have paid attention to Gary Hart and the others on the Commission that studied and reported on terrorism. It said we would face this much and worse...and it did so a few months ago.

Thank God for Americans, Donuel...we don't give up so easily. I'm not saying you're chicken, but you sure are demonstrating some "hen-house ways!"

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Skeptic
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:26 AM

We are not at war. Maybe after Bush's speech tonight we will be, if Congress so votes. Not sure who we would declare war on but we'll see.

As I understand it, under State of Emergency declarations, the President has far more powers to temporally suspend things (already in Law). If War is declared by Congress, they have to start authorizing things like keeping the press out (deja vu: Desert Storm), suspending habeas corpus and so on.

BTW, the conspiracy sights are having a field day as their scenario for the powers that be getting rid of the Constitution, suspending elections and so on has always been for a permanant state of emergency to be declared.

But we should be troubled by the press thing. Censoring after the fact (as was done in WWII) is one thing. This is another and is a little ominous.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:30 AM

YOU have already lost, Donuel, and anyone else who thinks like that. Give up at the first sign of trouble? Concede defeat and run away like scared rabits? Presuming you are in the US, what happened to the spirit that fought off the British oppression? What happened to the power that led the world? I guess it still lingers on in the millions upon millions of Americans who will not accept defeat at the hands of a bully.

The British did not accept it at Dunkirk or during the Blitz - and that spirit helped us hold out until allies came to our aid. Don't give up like that. Stick it out, everyone is already with you.

I am NOT advocating violence or retaliation btw - just the opposite. It is a strong man indeed who will not accept defeat from either his enemies or his own emotions!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:48 AM

Wasn't Walter Cronkite the guy who thought that the Tet offensive was a stunning strategic victory for the North Vietnamese?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Gimli
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:04 AM

"Faithless is he who leaves the path when at its darkest"

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:04 AM

To quote a famous movie:

"Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? No! It's not over till we say it's over!"

[yes I know it was not the Germans but if you know the movie, you'll understand ;-) ]

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

Donuel.....I'm not sure if you are scared, confused, or a complete flake. I'll have to figure it's the former which is certainly natural in this time. You posted the article on the other thread and I think we have two different ways of seeing it. Whatever you are, I'll assume you are not a troll as you have been around awhile and yet also don't respond much after posting controversial threads.

I too worry about the overall direction that is being taken, but at the same time I am heartened that time keeps passing without a massive retaliation. Whatever reservations I may have about Dubya, I also believe that he is "covered" by many intelligent advisors in his cabinet and Congress. I am not so naive as to think that we will do ALL the things I'd like to see and remain free of bloodshed.......it won't happen. I can only hope though that most of what we do will result in diminishing of the NEED the terrorists feel to attack innocents.

I see great hope in the world reaction and the world involvement in this action. I also see that perhaps we will have the sense to come down on our own home-grown terrorists. We are also making noises that we will now and finally get serious about not just rooting out the terrorists, but getting to the root causes of their actions.

What I also believe is that the people of the world and this country have the stamina and the desire to end this type of "warfare." Look to the heartland of this country and you see folks looking for an end to terrorism and not anxious to go into any kind of false war. They are willing to support Bush in his efforts to bring Bin Laden to justice and to stamp out the organization, but they fear for their children and the world they inherit. Hence, they are willing to do whatever it takes to end this. They are also prepared for a long term gain over short term vengeance. It is in this reaction which I see growing across the country, even among the hawks, that I take the most encouragement. Many of these same people were at first ready to blow the hell out of anything in the Middle East, but are now moving over to a more long term stance. Not all.....but many......

BTW, if you DID post this as a troll.........Fuck off, ya' got me. Now go have a Coke and a Smile and Shut the Fuck Up!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:45 PM

what's so funny bout peace love and understanding?

The thing is, and I mentioned this elsewhere, we have to find ways to communicate with people who don't understand things like peace love and understanding. They demand to be heard, but they don't want anyone to listen. It's like they want to scream just to hear themselves scream.

So how DO you teach the pig to sing?

I am glad we have not rushed headlong into military retaliation, and I for one do not want to see Any At All! I don't. BUT I am also aware that force may be necessary if all other options are exhausted. I'm praying for lots of Plan B's.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:03 PM

KimC, was that movie Stripes with Harold Ramis and whathisname?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:07 PM

The movie was "Animal House" with the line being delivered by John Belushi. Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:40 PM

Spaw, you get a Golden Fart award for today. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:55 PM

There are probably some things that are even more difficult than teaching a pig to sing. Ask Buddha or Jesus or any other enlightened soul about that, and they could tell you some interesting tales...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Shenandoah
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:12 PM

Donuel has it pretty dead on, actually.

Some of you might want to stop your jingo dancing for long enough to actually read the 4th Amendment.

And recognize that the agencies which make up the secret US government, known to the citizenry of the US as "the intelligence community" (ie the CIA, National Security Agency, and the FBI) are not a branch of government, nor are they accountable to the citizenry of this country in any way.

The government doesn't need to suspend the Constitution or elections to destroy our democratic freedoms. Judging by people's responses here, most of you don't even know what our constitutionally protected civil rights are. If you think the government is going to protect democratic rights in this country, you are seriously deluded. Seriously deluded.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:25 PM

Indeed it is an impudent thing to say and was done after a long day of news monitoring. To be true to myself and honor the serios posts here I will simply add a quote that suggests why I believe we have lost before we begin.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction...

The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness... of annihilation."

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:26 PM

I have heard that hornpipe before, Shennendoah--that because of the covert actions of the government, we should all be upset because we have no civil rights, and in fact, we never had any. You are both just looking for a rabble to rouse--hopefully it won't happen--

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM

The last time that I checked, the FBI and the CIA have been held accountable for various acts (ever heard of the freedom of information act). As a specific example, please note that the CIA was prohibited from dealing with many of the "unsavory" characters that they had used in the past. There have also been a number of Senate hearings over mismanagement and misconduct by the FBI. Of course, you could argue that these are well orchestrated smoke-screens that hide the hidden agenda by Big Brother to enslave us. If you buy into that, you might be better off hiding out in the woods with the brainiacs who think that the Federal Income Tax is Facism since it is not specifically mentioned in the original constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

I think the point is here that we may have lost the Gulf War. (The sins of the father visited on the son?) We ignored the plight of the poor arabs while we were defending oil wells for our own use. The poor arabs became Mujehedeem and joined the fanatical Taliban who now control Afghanistan and have undue influence in Pakhastan.

Now that we see that we just can't ignore the needs of the poor people of the world, or ignore their grievances, we can learn from this lesson and proceed with understanding and compassion.

Also, the knowledge that when poor people are not listened to they can easilly be exploited by reprehensible and opportunistic fanatatics and facists such as bin Laden, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and the callous leaders of the Sudan.

If we learn this lesson, we can win the war over ignorance and unmindful detachment from the poor countries and peoples of the world. We can begin to explain ourselves as a nation through our humanitarian deeds.We are still the recipient of appx. 75% of the world's gross national production.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

To help the world get out of this one somewhat intact we will have to use our head ,heart and hands.

Head: An international tribunal to investigate and indict specific terrorists.

Heart: Align ourselves with the mocerate Islmaic cleriks of influence that can bring the message of terrorism as the antithisis to Islam.

Hands: and teeth of the military will be required to enforce the indictments.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:39 PM

Donuel: I didn't hear the Walter Cronkite quote but if you think the freedom of speech is going to be stifled by the government, I think you are incorrect. There is round-the-clock coverage of events on many of the cable networks, particularly Fox News Network and CNN.

If, and when, there is a military response I'm sure we will hear about it. On the other hand if what you are seeking is full disclosure of military plans prior to any action to be taken, you are going to be sorely disappointed.

This is not a criminal action, it is an act of war, and wartime restrictions on information is going to be the rule.

As someone said before, we are not defeated ...we haven't even started yet.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

Donuel:

The three point plan you itemize is excellent, in theory, as long as we are willing to consider the use of multi-kiloton explsives and the massascre of 5000 humans who were non-combatants and innocent of known offense as a big crime.

Justice is a process used to channel and remdiate crime.

War is a process used to stop destructive acts by a declared enemy who has by action or formal word revealed a destructive intention toward the state declaring war.

Ben laden, in his fatwah has declared that it is the duty of good Muslims to rise up and kill Americans and take their money, according to the bit posted here recently. In addition he announced a major strike against the United States of "unprecedented force" a few weeks ago, but whe one occurred he insisted it wasn't him!!

Whether it was him directly or not there are good reasons for believing he was involved, based on the known connections of known participants. Subject to later information, of course.

Hopw many or how much crime do you think it takes from one organized group before "war" becomes an appropriate term?

If it is warm your scenario still holds, with one exception. Leave the tribunal out of it and the military force enforces the edicts of the best intelligence we can bring to bear.

A lot of the same people will--one way or another--get rubbed out of their current identities.

The military process will prbably cost less, be faster, and be more of an incentive against similar future recurrence, I think.

Always willing to be wrong.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

If we put DougR, Donuel, and Amos, along with X-Ed(if he doesn't return to active status) together in a room, we would probably have the highest rated show on CNBC--all sides presented(sometimes in the same post!) with enough vinnigar to keep it interesting!!

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM

Whatever the post.....Let me say that I'm glad Donuel is coming back and discussing things here and on other threads. While the topics are controversial and we will all not agree, at least he has stated his positions and proved himself not a troll.

Donuel....Thanks for your posts, no matter if we agree or not.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:34 PM

Kim, the point is that you teach a pig to sing. And you can't change some people's minds.
Frank, there are poor people in ALL the Arab states, even those who have oil. There is a big gap between the "haves" and the "have-nots" but it is the responsibility of those countries governments to address those issues. If we interfere then we are meddling with the affairs of another nation. And thats wrong.
It was wrong when we did it in Chile, it was wrong in Nicaragua and El Salvador AND IT'S WRONG HERE TOO>.
Afghanistan has no oil. The Mujahadeen are for the most part, Afghan tribesmen. bin Laden brought in what he called "Afghan Arabs" to help fight the Russians. These were not poor men but men who already had some experience in warfare and/or terrorism.
When the Russians left,the country erupted into civil war with one group of Mujahadeen fighting another. The Tailban -mostly Pashtuns from the south- came out on top.
The rest of the country is in ruins and the tribes who lost out now skulk and starve in the mountains or, in the north, conduct guerrilla warfare.
A couple of months ago, the US sent $42 million in aid -mostly food and medicines- to Afghanistan but it is unlikely that the aid ever reached anyone but Talliban supporters.
I am not sure which poor people we are ignoring, but their own governments can't deny them the aid we send and then blame us.
Unless you want us to be the cops of the world.
BTW, yes, we are the reciepient of 75% of the worlds GNP. We make most of it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:39 PM

Yeah, what spaw said.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:49 PM

Sorry. The Talliban are Pathans. The language they speak is Pashtun or Pushtu.
I am covered with rue.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:53 PM

I tried posting on Maestronet, like frog in a small pond, but members are mostly interested in dicussing the psalm Bush mentioned or yelling that we the cowardly public have no need to know and should therefor be silent.

This forum has such a multitude of intelligent people I am but an ameoba in a large lake.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Sourdough
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM

Donuel;

One of the things that I think gets overlooked by not just yourself but most other people in a discussion such as this one is that somewhere there are people, cabinet officers, legislators, national security advisors, economists, CEO's, security people and the like who have to make decisions about what to do - right now. They have to protect lives and property in an immediate sense.

Of course, I agree that we must think clearly and act decisively to change the context that produces terrorists and the people who are willing to shelter them, however there are some people whom we expect to make decisions about what to do this afternoon, tomorrow and next week to protect us and our families. Unfortunately this kind of pressure in an emergency has led to major injustices, especially the rounding up of Japanese on the West Coast and Axis nationals on the East Coast following the US entry into WW II. However, our system was such their injustices were finally recognized and their tribulations apologized for. The bravery of their sons became appreciated to the extent that in the 1960 there was a feature film about the Japanes-Americans fighting who unit in the US Army was one of the most decorated in the entire war. An open society recognized and apologized for one of its mistakes. The injustice now stands as an example of the significance of suspending civil rights.

If you are ever in a position where you have to make a decision that will immediately affect the safety and the confidence of hundreds, to say nothing of hundreds of millions, of lives, you may find that you, too, have a tendency to over react. The purpose of a Consitution is to bring things back into balance once a crisis has been normalised. Whether or not we are able to do that in this case will be the test of whether we have won or lost.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM

Syrian rue?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:57 PM

Well, we're a pretty much all a bunch of amoebas here......sadly we got some pond scum too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM

Sourdough,

The problem with people like you is that you tend to rain on the parade by actually making cogent comments that represent a blending of education and good common sense. You go girl....

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM

Kin I be a rotifer 'Spaw? Huh? Kin I? Huh?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:12 PM

Guest Yabbit:

The trouble with people like you is they say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things say nice things.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:16 PM

Sourdough, you have fractured the suspension of belief that some of us are in charge:-) With a selected head of state ,trust in a democratic process in times of declared war against John Doe is threatened, no matter how high Shrub's ratings are now.

If we were together on Politically Incorrect I would get the cat calls and cheers and you would get the polite but enthusiastic applause.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:20 PM

Could somebody interpret Donuel's last message. My Ph.D. isn't serving me too well in this instance.

And Amos, sorry about the repeated message. My bad, bad, bad, bad, bad.....

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Skeptic
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

troll,

I think how we interfere may have something to do with it. After all, we are interfering in Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia to mention a few

Do you propose isolationism of some sort as a solution?

Perhaps we need to look at how we meddle and interfere, and why we are publically proclaiming support for democratic government, civil liberties and so on but acting in against those ends. Wonder what the Kuwaiti (and others) think about the us coming in , kicking out the Iraqis and then restoring a monarchy that traditionally has been less than supportive of democracy in their own country?

It isn't rue you are covered in.

That's for the whale comment made elsewhere. Why worry about thread creep when we can go at it across multiple sites, after all.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Margo
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM

No we haven't.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:31 PM

The people who have lost the war are those whose husbands, wives, children, siblings, best friends died for no reason on 9/11. The next round of people to lose the war will be the mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, and children of the combatants who die -- or of the victims of the next senseless attack.

My son is 22 -- just the right age for cannon fodder, historically. I pray for his safety every day of my life. I have tremendous faith, but it does seem that extremist fundamentalism of ANY stripe just creates and then justifies chaos and death and hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:44 PM

Fourth Amendment? That's unreasonable search and seizure, right? the right of the people to be secure in their persons and houses and papers and all that, and no troops being quartered in peacetime? Ain't that the one?

Y'know the DEA got in some big trouble over that awhile back.

well, I have posted to so many threads the last 10 days they are all running together now and my head hurts. Before I go to my pig-singing lesson I better find an aspiring or something.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

...aspiRIN... (see what I mean?)

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:55 PM

July-6-2002

Sorry I haven't posted in awhile , on our way to the 4th of July fireworks I was detained for 48 hours at the security checkpoint for not having my national identity card. I'm still a little sore from the "reasonable" search and seizure.

Should the war continue another 12 years my 6 year old son will surely be drafted.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM

Sounds a little vague, but in the event that you were actually mistreated, it should not be taken as a sign of general decline of rights. If you compare the present (even factoring in the possibility of some abuses by panicky officers) to the past you will see that there has been a steady decrease in the ability of police and others to abuse their power.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:41 AM

Hello Donuel I think the Media Should not be given full access to coverage of the war look back at what happened to the seal team who landed on the beach and where swarmed by reporters.I for one would not want the media letting our enemy know what the hell were doing remember the old saying from WW2 lose lips sink ships.Donuel also the fourth Admendment can be over ridden by a thing called probable cause. I would like to also ask a question have you ever faced a bully when you were in school? Deda those people have not lost a war they have lost the ones they love to lose the war they would have to give up completely and not go on with their lives.Your right about your son but they have proven they can harm him whether he is over there fighting against them or back here enjoying the day not bothering anyone. Amos Bin Laden is without a doubt responsible for the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania and since he has already struck there why shouldn't we arrest him anyway for those crimes. Before I leave for the night I would like to end this with a little story. There was a captain of a fighting ship. He was fully engaged with an enemy vessel, the cannons were roaring, men were screaming the fight was intense. The captain of the enemy vessel seen he was getting the better of are hero and shouted to him"good sir do you wish to surrender" are hero's reply was "I have not yet begun to fight" That man and hero of the story was John Paul Jones and he went on to win that day.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GeorgeH
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:10 AM

To my mind a lot of the replies here indicate just how close to the truth Donnel is . .

As for the person who said "The only way we can lose the war against terrorism is by betraying our own principles of decency, fairness and justice.", well, that really hands it to Donnel, Game, Set and Match. Even within its own land, the US's principles of "Decency, fairness and justice" are often pretty hard to discern. In its international policies and actions they're often invisible.

Oh, and Terrorism isn't an entity on which you can make war, its a strategy. Which (amongst its other deployments) will always be used by those who have no other way to redress what they perceive as wrongs.

Finally, will the US start its global and all-inclusive war against terrorism by a categoric and irrevocable undertaking that it will never again give overt or covert support to any terrorist organisation?

In the State Sponsorship of Terrorism league the US comes pretty high - which says a lot about its committment to "decency, fairness and justice".

I guess I ought to stay out of here before I cause too much more upset. The extent to which people's hearts have run away with their heads is both frightening and deeply depressing . .

G.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:52 AM

George H.

The reason that big D (and you) is difficult to take seriously is the overall lack of an objective reading of American history. The fundamental fact is that our various freedoms have been strengthened thru time. Consider the following.

1.It is argued that freedom of the press is infringed. How does this compare to T. Roosevelt who could get away with literally blackballing members of the press who disagreed with his policies.

2.What about the freedom to protest/strike? Is it infringed like seventy years ago when the military and police often served as mercenaries and shot down dozens of striking workers for mining companies and factories. On a similar note, ever heard of what happened to the World War One Veteran's bonus march on Washington D.C. in the 1920s.

3.Our protection against various abuses by law enforcement is greatly improved. Do you really think that things are nearly as bad now as during the J. Edgar Hoover reign in the FBI.

All of these areas have shown improvement even since the Reagan administration. Of course, there is always room for improvement, and tempered skepticism toward the government is great in a Demoracacy. However, shrill and unsubstantiated cries of "The sky is falling" aren't.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:03 AM

IN A DEEP, LOW VOICE

"The Sky is sagging, the Sky is sagging".

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:26 AM

Good boy John, its nice to see caution rather than hysteria. As Don Rickles would say, "You get a cookie."

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Butch, at work
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

Donuel, before making yourself look like a blind, unthinking person, try reading some American history. We have not lost, we have not yet fought this one. By your definition, we lost WWII on DEc. 20th, 1941! I am sure there are a few vets out there (not to mention scholors) who would challange you on your fine conclusion!

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:36 AM

Butch, . To be true to myself and honor the vets and serious posts here I will simply add a quote that suggests why I believe we have lost before we begin.

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction...

The chain reaction of evil - hate begetting hate, wars producing more wars - must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the darkness... of annihilation."

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

Invoking the King is a good literary touch, but producing some actual facts to support the stuff that you have been spouting would get a lot of people off your back.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:09 AM

Does anyone have a coherent idea of just how the US should handle this crisis? And If I hear "JustLOVE them and try to understand them " or a variant thereof one more time, I'm gonna puke.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:11 AM

Donuel,

Are you, as BillD indicated, in the DC area? Am curious to know a bit more about what happened to you on the 4th of July--PM me if you want--

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:17 AM

Once the first reports of killed Muslims at the hands of American forces are broadcast world wide it will be too late to create any lasting icon of a peaceful political solution.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:37 AM

MTed the 4th of July post was a satire of a fictitious incident that occurred 7-4-NEXT YEAR.

Regarding the reality of today: For my wife to get to work she has to allow for an extra 40 minutes per day since they search everyone on the buses she takes to work.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:13 AM

Date: 20-Sep-01 - 04:16 PM

Sourdough, you have fractured the suspension of belief that some of us are in charge:-) With a selected head of state ,trust in a democratic process in times of declared war against John Doe is threatened, no matter how high Shrub's ratings are now.

If we were together on Politically Incorrect I would get the cat calls and cheers and you would get the polite but enthusiastic applause.

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR From: GUEST,Yeah but... Date: 20-Sep-01 - 04:20 PM

Could somebody interpret Donuel's last message. My Ph.D. isn't serving me too well in this instance.

OK , Some people here become so embroiled in their interpretations of what our foreign policies should be, they invest in a belief that their opinions may make a difference (as if they are in charge or elections are fair). Sourdough may have brought some of these people down to earth with moderate comments. President Bush is the legitimate President however there is a fear that the democratic process has been dealt a blow. The selection by the Supream Court of Bush may come back to haunt him later after our declared war against all terrorists "in general" is proven to be a tough process with many domestic perils. Despite his current high approval ratings they could drop like a stone similar to his Dads.

My opinions can be inflamatory in title and controversial in satire and may enrage or delight. A moderate approach to common sense will get much more polite applause in comparison.-end of translation for the PHD challenged.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM

Somehow, Donuel, I don't think that they appreciate your Ionesco-like sense of humor.

At any rate, at the rate of 40 minutes a day, your wife will have been detained for more than 48 hours by the next fourth of July, and I am sure that they check ID's on the bus, as well. A few nights back, we drove down Georgia Av., only to encounter a police barricade--nearly twenty police officers, carefully examining each car--not to worry, it was only a "sobriety check"--

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Yeah but...
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:32 PM

Donuel,

Thanks for rendering it into English. Now that we understand your opinion, care to dazzle us with some facts.....

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:18 PM

We have lost the war. Japanese planes have pulverized our Pacific Fleet. The USS Arizona stands as a lasting monument to our negligence and our defeat. The President has called for War, creating a martial law footing which will rob us of our tradition of freedom. We have no alternative but to surrender our country and hope for mercy.

Donuel, 1941

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Troll,

My opinion, for what its worth, is that:

A/ We continue 'harassing' the Taliban to hand him over... while at the same time continuing to encourage them (through diplomatic means) to continue to 'suggest' to him that he leaves. A re-iteration & clarification of the statement that NO terrorism, ANYWHERE will be tolerated needs to be made again, & again.

B/ We drop food, etc, to the Refugee Camps inside Pakistan. That might go a long way towards keeping the Pakistani Government on our side, despite pressure from sections of their own Population. Hopefully it will also draw more people out of Afghanistan anyway.

C/ Do NOTHING Militarily until we can increase support BY doing nothing.... let more & more Nations fall into line behind us, encouraged by the fact that we are exercising restraint. (I DON'T consider that we can claim that we have, just yet, simply because we havent struck in the past week). That will allow us to build up more & more HUMINT, & other forms, as more & more is processed... doubtless we cant have already discovered all that there is to discover even regarding the events of 11/9. Anyway, its seldom possible to have ENOUGH information about ones enemy.

D/ Bin Ladens assets may have already been frozen since '98, but doubtless there are others in the 'Terrorist community' who might continue to support him, who's assets HAVENT been seized/frozen yet... we need to get Financial Institutions to do just that.

E/ Actively RECRUIT Arabs/Muslims as Translators/Linguists, even Covert Operatives. (An ENORMOUS task, I know.... they would all have to be subjected to the most stringent Security checks, & so on). Naturally, that involves continuing to ensure that those in our own countries are not harrassed, attacked, or intimidated.

F/ Work with the Authorities in 'Palestine'. The Israeli's, to my mind, made a very bold & laudable step in pulling back from the territiories so recently moved into.

G/ Work with ANYONE who will listen, to root out terrorism & potential terrorism wherever, but DO NOT repeat the errors made in setting Bin Laden up to resist the Soviets. Gaddafi, despite the past, has, for a few years now, its reported, has been HOLDING BACK the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism in North Africa.

H/ Keep re-iterating that TERRORISM is the enemy, & NOT those who have made a tool of it in the past. We must not let any of this be perceived as purely against islam, even Islamic Fundamentalism.

Maybe with all this done, & or ongoing, we CAN consign the word terrorism to the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

Ooops, forgot to say that that's is just my own, half-arsed personal opinion, of course..I'm just a nobody!

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM

Entry by bus into Federal installations does in fact involve searches - not sobriety searches. If you have not heard of the proposed National Identity Card you soon will.

Some believe the only worthy facts in the conflict involve posting the ravings of terrorists. Others produce no facts at all and smugly snipe the conversation of others. Perhaps they believe they will be merely inconvienienced by the war. They are not expecting to die in the stench of their own small pox pustuels. Escalation to bio war is still unthinkable to some today as last weeks events were back in August.

Calm , cautious , discriminate thinking is not the sole domain of war zealots. In fact I think it is sorely lacking in the war zealot mind set represented here.

I have delineated a well organized response to global terrorism in other threads. You have read them , perhaps you pay little attenion to the attribution of various posts.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM

Hello Donuel As I said in my last post to Deda they have already proven they could hurt us if they so choose.If we let them get away with this then most likely they will step up their attacks they tried to blow up the WTC before nothing was done look what happened. I would also like to point out that 40 minutes of your wifes time every day is nothing if it means she will make it home safely.

Paul from Hull 1)I don't believe we should arrest him remember all the hijackings where their demands were we released one of their leaders.

2)we have sent over 42 million dollars worth of food and medical supplies to pakistan before this even happened let alone the other monetary aid we send. the pakistan government was behind us but factions of the people said they would kill are troops if they went into afghanistan.

3) We need to strike against them now just not Bin Laden and his group but evrywhere these factions are hiding.We let them prepare for us thru our Bsing and inaction more American lives are lost I am saddened that more innocents will have to die in bombings and such but if the garden is choked with weeds even the pretty flowers must go.

4) I also asked if any of you ever had to face the school bully? (might have missed it the way my message got all jumbled together)The reason I ask is because if you haven't I don't believe you understand what must be done.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 03:27 AM

troll,

You said:

Does anyone have a coherent idea of just how the US should handle this crisis?

I've posted this on two other threads as well as this one. The first time was in response to someone's question. I figure it couldn't hurt to post it here, too.

GUEST, just a nobody... we do everything we possibly can to promote, protect, and preserve a coalition with as many countries in the world as we possibly can.

We work together with all of the countries in the coalition to come up with a plan to use diplomatic, law enforcement, and finanial avenues to isolate and starve the organizations who are responsible for the terrorist attacks. This includes holding banks accountable for any help they give to terrorist organizations by sheltering money for them.

We make absolute sure that we do not do anything to destabilize any countries that have governments who are friendly to us or who are willing to help us.

We learn to work with other countries as equals instead of acting like a father figure to them and treating them like children.

If there is anything that is going to save the US, it will be for us to learn that we need the rest of the world, and we need their help as much as they need ours. If we fail to learn this lesson, I fear that we are in very big trouble.

The first and most important thing, in my opinion, is that at this moment in history, perhaps more than any other moment in history, we not only have the compassion and sympathy of much of the rest of the world, we also have their empathy. By that, I mean that they can, probably for the first time ever, see themselves in our shoes. This is very critical, and should not be wasted.

Because of this, they will very probably be willing to work with us and help us, as long as what we propose to do helps all of us. Most other countries probably won't have the burning desire or need for retribution that we have here. Most of them will probably be interested in solving the problem of terrorism, and no more. If we use our military might in a way that destabilizes countries that are crucial to this effort, at least one of which has nuclear weapons (Pakistan), the other countries in the coalition will probably recognize that they will not be helped in the long run by these military actions, that they may, in fact be hurt, and may remove themselves from the coalition.

I did a research paper about a year ago to find out what is the most powerful motivator for people. This was not research that originated with me. I was researching work that was done by others. What I found was that the most powerful motivator is what I would call "enlightened self-interest". By that I mean, people are motivated the most powerfully, and in the most lasting way when they understand how it is in their best interest to behave in a certain way. But what makes it enlightened self interest is the understanding of how what is in their best interest is also in the best interest of others. So, obviously I'm not talking about extortion. I mean people are motivated most powerfully by what is genuinely in their best interest.

If the US says, "You must do what we want or you will suffer in some way", that would be extortion. If we say, "We must work together to find a way to solve this problem in such a way that we all benefit", that would be motivating people through the use of enlightened self-interest.

Once we have built a coalition of willing participants that is based on the idea of enlightened self-interest, we determine what the benefits will be for all of the members of the coalition. The most obvious would be to protect all of us from terrorism. Even the banks will probably suffer in the long run if terrorism is allowed to destroy the economies of many of the richest nations on earth. So, even for the banks, there is an element of enlightened self-interest in helping to eliminate terrorism. In fact, it seems to me that there are probably very few groups, nations, or other interests who would benefit in the long run from allowing terrorism to continue or to flourish in the world.

If we put together such a coalition, we will need to identify what sort of actions would be detrimental to any of the members in the long run. One example of this would be if we caused, through military action in Afghanistan, destabilization in Pakistan resulting in an overthrow of the government now in place which is friendly to us at this time, by Muslim fundamentalists who are friendly with the Taliban. This, of course would be contrary to Pakistan's self-interest (as defined by the majority of people there at this time, which would likely change if we killed a lot of Afghanis), and it would also be contrary to our self-interest, because we would then have two enemies in the place of one, and one of them with nuclear weapons.

You see where I'm going with this. So we form a solid coalition. We work with the coalition as equals, rather than as an authority figure who says, "you're either for us or against us". Then, we put together the best minds that each of the countries in the coalition have at their disposal, and formulate plans to use the tools at our disposal to find out who the terrorists are, and how leverage might be applied to dry up whatever resources they have to help them to accomplish what they are trying to do. And whenever it is possible to, try to take into custody important figures within the terrorist organizations only if doing so does not put any member/countries of the coalition in jeopardy in any significant way.

It seems to me that the most important thing we can do to the terrorists is to remove their sting. Even if they are still walking the streets, if they are perceived as ineffectual and weak by the starry eyed youths whom they would want to recruit, would anyone want to join them, much less give up their life for them? Take away the glory and there is no point in any of it. We don't take away the glory by killing them or making them glorified prisoners. We take away the glory by making them ineffectual.

This isn't in the other posts, but I'm putting it here. I think we need to get our act together with regard to basic security issues as well. Things like the air marshals and better inspection of passengers, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:41 AM

. If stopping this war is the question I do not have an answer. It would be like trying to stop 1,000 supertankers at full speed from hitting the statue of Liberty on a 1 mile collision course. ': Time for all these things to happen is compromised when one leads with the fist. You can consult the art of war yourself but if you want literal war strategies HERE is one outlined scenario. Slow down... secretly cease the expected counter attack...A quick reaction would serve our purposes best with a miniature defeat... listen and watch. They will become confused between overconfidence and fear of a belated reprisal causing some mistakes to be exploited. Monitor the reaction when they think there is no massive US reponse. If a call for fatwa occurs more clues will crawl out of the woodwork and we can collect strategic bonanzas. At home there needs to be good old fashioned systemic beurocratic work with complete cross over communication between the CIA,FBI,INO,NSA,CC,DOD,Eschelon,Interpole and others . Recruit the talent you need in cyber and cultural areas that was not available or willing to help us before the attack. Set them apart from in house pros and give them a project similar in scope to WWII code breaking. Use time and sympathy of the International community well. Dry up some financial holdings, but not 'all' so you can still do in depth tracing of the money they try to use. There will be plenty of time through December and January for international support to grow. Beware of revolutions springing up in quasi moderate Islamic states like Saudi Arabia(they are not helping at this time and the King has fled to Geneva). Do not enter into their civil war. Learn from the mistakes of the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and get Congress to ask the hard questions as soon as possible. Blank checks are for blind policy. Appropriate with insight. In forming an international tribunal if the UN will not unaminously support a G5 request form a brand new tribunal consisting of Islmaic judges and near complete international representation , the obvious missing judges would be Isreal , India and perhaps even the US . IF a perception of a puppet or Kangaroo court occurs having the US publicly get denied select outrageous and reasonable requests should solve that. Go to the Hague or create one in Nuremberg if we have to. Based on the intelligence from the US ,interpole and other's evidence is presented for 2 years or more handing down public indictments that would not jeopardize the covert operations of sensitive secret indictments. As in magic , misdirection will be an advantage to get the terrorists not mentioned in the public indictments. If there is an international array of enforcment volunteers make sure they have clear cut warrants and single targets to capture. Make sure Islams know of bounties for certain indictments handed down so even a single modest man could be instrumental in handing over a terrorist. Choose your seasons and tides of PR well. Whatever help moderate cleriks can afford in the months prior to Ramadan and right after will probably be the maximum help they can ever produce. Link further extractions with the most favorable PR afforded by Islams themselves as well as bounties that serve Islam to capture Islam. Do not mix the various tribes of Islam when employing bounties. Like catchs like. Fomenting additional hatred between various branches of Islam is not to our advantage here for many reasons. Of course there are new weapons that can be used without knowledge to the outside world. Many of these as I will call them vibrational weapons are nearly non leathal and can be used with much stealth. Enough said.

Fullfill the capture of the leading criminals the tribunal granted public indictments for and call that a victory. The secret warrants may be done as best advantage allows. But like I said , I think its too late since after our rolling thunder air raid any number of crimes could be alleged against the US true or not here is the other thread.

I gave this crude idea a couple hours of thought and wrote this with no workable knowledge of existing intel programs. No crystal ball but I had inspiration from the likes of the Dali Lama , William Weld and Elvis Prestly : "wise men say , only fools rush in , but Bush can't help bombing Afghan i stan." The public has every right to want to smite the enemy right now - and we may get one or two right away. It seems that there is great hope that prudence is our on side with the statements from the DOD that this will be a very long process.

Setting the correct goal is crucial. Our existing goal is not a precise one "ridding the world of evil" but it will do until time for refining it allows.

Send US toops into the Afgan mountains of 10 million land mines? We are too smart for that. We have an advisor in the defeated Russian general that fought the Afgan war.

There will again be a time when our enemy is again our friend.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM

Powell said dismantling the al-Qaida network is the first goal. He also indicated that any military action in Afghanistan, where bin Laden is believed to be hiding, will not be on the scale of the Gulf War.

``Let's not assume there will be a large-scale move,'' Powell said. ``I don't think we should even consider a large-scale war at this point.''

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

Thank you Carol, Donuel. At least you have put some thught into the sujbect and are not simply shooting from the lip.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: toadfrog
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 05:54 PM

I think, in order to win a "war against terrorism," we would have to eliminate terrorism forever. So we may win battles, but will surely lose the "war." That is considerably more than a semantical quibble. Whoever thought up the expression, "war against terrorism," unnecessarily set the U.S.A. up for an uneccessary defeat, by promissing the impossible.

From what I understand, General Powell is now in charge and is intent on behaving reasonably. If so, Bush deserves credit for letting cooler heads prevail. But his rhetoric is nonetheless foolish and self-defeating.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM

Wow, Toad! I wasn't aware General Powell is president now! I've been watching the news channels and I haven't heard a word about a new election! When did that happen?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM

I sincerely hope you are right, toadfrog. If so, I will feel much more confident in our ability solve the problems we face right now.

Where did you hear this news?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

As I said very early on in this whole discussion, be thankful that Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell are in powerful positions. Their politics are certainly not mine, but they are exceedingly competent and will bring a voice of reason to all of this. If Cheney had his way, we would have launched the cruise missiles by now.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM

The Afghanis are not our enemy! We should drop bread on them, not more bombs. Doug, if W has a lick of sense, Powell WILL be in charge. He knows more about fighting than W does.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Guest, Deda at home
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:03 PM

According to a wire service piece in my local Sunday paper, the population of Kabul is 2.5 MILLION; Afghanistan is roughly the size of Texas, three quarters of it steep rough mountain, total population about 250 MILLION (still according to today's paper, from a wire service); I found these figures amazing after the posts that have flown around about how Afghanistan has been all but wiped out already. This also puts a different spin on what we know about the Taliban, about girls not being allowed to go to school past the age of 8 and all the other extreme repressions -- this is not just happening for a few hundred or a few thousand or even a few hundred thousand women. I still have trouble believing the numbers and would like to know if anyone can confirm or refute.

In theory I love Amos's idea of getting food to the people with kindly messages, but a vast majority of the population are illiterate, even the men.

In ancient Rome, when the dominant religions included polytheistic paganism (Jupiter, Juno, etc.) and Stoicism, the ethic of life for the educated classes included an obligation of public service -- entering law, politics, or the army, following the Cursus Honoris (Course of Honor). When Christianity took hold, Augustine wrote about the City of God, which meant living with an eye to God, only, which was the opposite of, which he specficically contrasted to, the City of Rome, public service, and the old traditions. Rome fell. Of course this is not the only reason, and of course Rome was no nirvana, but with the shift in emphasis from service due to the city or the empire TO service due only to God, there was no one left paying enough attention, minding the store, or trying to fix what was wrong. Or no one with any education, anyway. The thugs were the only ones left playing.

Rome was: The greatest military power of her day; vast; wealthy; sophisticated; symbolized by an eagle; the one and only true world superpower of the time; widely resented, even hated. Does any of that ring a bell?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:44 PM

I seriously doubt the president is planning military operations, Kendall, anymore than anyother president would do. They all rely on their military advisers. I agree, however, we are very lucky to have the team of advisers Bush has.

I'm not as confident as you, Mick, that the Vice President is chomping at the bit to throw any missiles at anybody. You may be thinking of what the previous administration did under similar circumstances, though.

It seems to me that the administration has shown great restraint, though the majority of the population evidently favors a quick military strike.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM

I agree, Doug, and the administration before did the same. The restraint shown, however, has been by Powell. All reports are that he has prevailed against those that want to go in as quickly as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:04 PM

ROME provides many valuable lessons. There have been a few since then, such as :

Do not fight a war with multiple fronts.

Do not fight a land war in Asia.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:05 PM

Powell is a soldier and -generally speaking- soldiers want to prevent war not wage it. They are, after all, the ones who die.
But the war has been brought to our shores and passions run high. Another atrocity like WTC and it will be hard to stop the planes and missiles.
One thing we could do is not exercise our veto the next time the question of punishing Israel for ignoring the UN sanctions concerning settlments on the West Bank. That would send two clear messages.
1) Israel would learn that we will not back her up if she defies the UN.
2) The Islamic world would learn that we are not willing to be a party to represion.
Then we would have to apply the same even-handed approach to the rest of the world and withdraw support from any regieme we deem opressive.
But to quote Eliza Dolittle, "Not bloody likely!"

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM

ROME provides many valuable lessons. There have been a few since then, such as :

Do not fight a war with multiple fronts.

Do not fight a land war in Asia.

Donuel, you make good points, but you are prone to overstatement. Did not the US achieve victory in World War 2 violating both of your rules?

True this is not a War of State versus State as in the traditional sense. This is like a massive homicide investigation, and as long as the killers are on the loose we are none of us safe. They have forced us to change our way of living, but I believe it is on a short-term basis, as any community would change its behavior if a mass murder were to take place by persons unknown . If we establish a firm objective (establishing guilt in the attack and punishing those guilty), devise a strategy for achieving this (enlist other nations in an effort to gather evidence in the investigation and capture the culprits), and keep our tactical methods flexible to accomodate the unexpected, I believe we can succeed.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:16 AM

Yep, Leej (great to "see" you), I agree. With regard to the tactical methods, they need to be compact and precise. I have heard much talk about taking out the Taliban. Mistake, mistake, mistake. We need to weaken them, strengthen the Afghan opposition, and let them do it. Trying to take out Hussein is what gave us bin-Laden. Our involvement on Moslem holy soil is one of the key reasons he went radical. My point is that we must approach this in a very slow and calculated fashion, or we risk creating many more bin-Laden's.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:24 AM

Poor Powell, if and when there is an attack, I suppose he will be blamed for not being able to control the Hawks. I still believe, however, that the president is running things.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM

*grin*

Nice try DougR. If there is an attack and the results cause more problems than they solve, Bush will be blamed for listening to the wrong people.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:43 AM

Mick, I don't believe it was the Gulf War that made bin Laden "go radical". He stated of T.V. That he has hated the US since he was a child. I'll try to find the article.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM

Mick, I don't believe it was the Gulf War that made bin Laden "go radical". He stated of T.V. That he has hated the US since he was a child. I'll try to find the article.

troll

And here it is: from the Drudge report and the "Online Sun"
TERROR chief Osama bin Laden has called on Muslims to wage war against the "scum" of the West, it was revealed last night.

Bin Laden made the chilling demand in a rare TV interview from his mountain lair in Afghanistan.

The fanatic smirked as he spoke of his "joy and delight" at the 1998 US embassy bombings that killed 224 people. He launched a hate-filled tirade against America and its allies.

Bin Laden called for a Jihad, or holy war, to drive Americans out of Islamic lands. He said: "We cannot leave the house of God to these malicious Jews and Christians.

"Every US man is an enemy. We demand the liberation of our land from Americans. We call on the sons of the Muslim Nation to pursue Jihad and inflict pain on America and its allies.

"We are duty-bound to protect the nation against the US, Israel and their allies, and to resist this occupation."

Bin Laden, No1 suspect for the New York and Washington atrocities, was captured on camera in 1998 by Arabic satellite channel Al Jazera, based in the Gulf country of Qatar.

He predicted a miltary strike against Afghanistan, whose brutal Taliban rulers have sheltered the exiled Saudi millionaire. Bin Laden said: "We have chosen the road for ourselves, and we are not interested by America's missiles.

"We warn them that any strikes against Afghanistan will be seen as a strike against the State of Islam."

Hate-filled ... terror chief wants a 'holy war' against the West

He smiled as he admitted he "incited" attacks on US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya: "The bombing was a grace from the Almighty, bringing delight to the Muslim world."

Bin Laden praised the bombers, and those who attacked the World Trade Center in 1993. He said: "May Allah accept these young men as martyrs in his cause.

"I view with a high degree of pride these great men who lifted the humiliation that had befallen our nation."

But when quizzed about America's claim that he spearheaded the attacks, bin Laden said: "Its allegations are void, unless it meant the association in their incitement. I admit any day that I was the one who endorsed an edict to protect the Muslim nation." He added: "Ever since I was a boy I felt hatred towards the Americans and felt that I was at war against them.

"Three-quarters of the US people support attacks on Iraq. The American President's ratings are high when he kills innocent civilians."

Of the US intervention in Kuwait, he said: "I'm sure that free Muslim women, let alone Muslim men, feel ashamed when such scum as the American army are called upon to defend them."

Bin Laden spoke of war between Muslims and "Zionist crusaders" led by the US and Israel, and called the United Nations an "infidel regime."

He added: "Our enemies move freely in our seas, land and air space, striking without consulting anyone.

"We should learn a lesson from our brothers in Palestine.

"They were known for their export-bound agriculture, citrus fruits and textiles. They later became destitutes and cheap labourers for Jews."

Smile masks a heart of hate

Family pose ... Bin Laden with 22 of his brothers and sisters Picture: CAMERA PRESS

Click to enlarge

THE smiling lad ringed in our picture looks like he doesn't have a care in the world as he poses with 22 of his brothers and sisters.

But the 14-year-old is Osama bin Laden - and within a few years the grinning schoolboy was on his way to becoming the world's most cold-hearted mass murderer. The bin Laden children lined up next to a pink Chrysler Imperial for this snapshot on a trip to Falun, Sweden, in 1971.

The holiday was paid for by their father Mohammed, a billionaire building tycoon. Osama inherited a fortune when his dad died soon afterwards - and used it to build a worldwide network of terror.

Clues that nail warlord

Straw ... dossier of evidence

By SIMON HUGHES

THE Sun today reveals vital clues that have convinced America and Britain that bin Laden was behind the murderous blitz on New York and Washington.

After the attack, a US spy satellite picked up two known associates of the terror warlord talking on mobile phones about "two targets being hit."

Then there is Nawaq Al-Hamzi, 25, a hijacker on the plane that hit the Pentagon.

He had been secretly videotaped by the CIA meeting an associate of bin Laden.

FBI agents further traced the plot to bin Laden by arresting Nabib Almarabh in Chicago.

He had been the target of a long-running probe into bin Laden's ties to the US.

Almarabh, Ahmed Al-ghamdi and Satam Al Suqmi, were suspected of channelling funds to bin Laden bank accounts.

And Al-ghamdi and Al Suqami were among the hijackers. All three had lived in Boston, scene of two hijackings, and where a bin Laden terror cell was thought to be based.

There is also evidence bin Laden made millions from dealing in shares he knew would be affected by the atrocities.

Powell ... 'US has the proof'

Top German banker Ernst Welteke said: "There were activities on the international financial markets that must have needed expert knowledge."

Some prices, like oil and gold, shot up after the hijacks.

Others, like airlines and insurance plunged - and huge profits were made.

Investors do deals to sell later below current prices, thus betting that prices will fall.

US-hating bin Laden was also linked to 1998 attacks on American embassies and is known to be the mastermind behind the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.

Secretary of State Colin Powell has pledged to reveal US evidence against bin Laden. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has received a secret four-page dossier blaming him.

MONDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER, 2001

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

troll, I have been wondering about what the solution is myself, but being quite ignorant in matters diplomatic & military, I don't know. Being 34 years old I have no real experience with a war-time America... sure, there was Desert Storm, but at the time, I wasn't paying attention.

I understand the importance of protecting the Afghani people from collateral damage, but how can we sit back and just do nothing? It has already been said in several discussions here already that when being nice fails, you can't be nice anymore.

So I don't know. I am hoping for a miracle.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

With the proposed freezing of terrorist related accounts I bet processing Swiss accounts have swamped Swiss bankers as money is being moved. IT is probably already there as well as Aruba ,Cayman Islands etc.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM

Mick; I agree with your suggestion that it would be much better for dissidents inside Afgahanistan were to overthrow the Taliban, and I'd be for us doing anything we need to do to support them.

CarolC: Bush will be blamed for whatever. If it is a definite "screw-up" he would deserve it. If, on the other hand, if whatever happens results in good things happening, he deserves the credit. Fair?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Doug, thats the way it should but the reality is that the screw-ups will be blamed on Bush while the credit for doing it right will go to Colin Powell and others.
Watch and see if I'm not right.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM

Oh, I agree with you troll.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:42 PM

I'd be curious to know how Doug and troll define "good things happening". More dead Them than dead Us? Do you remember Mark Twain's story about the stranger's prayer?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:29 PM

If Bush listens to Powell, and we have a good result because of it, I will give Bush credit for having enough sense to listen to Powell.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

Kim C, it sounds like you think that the only two options we have available to us are to use military force, or do nothing. I get the impression that a lot of people in this country think the same way.

The point is that there are many other options that we can utilize before we ever think about using military force. Military force is the approach with the greatest potential for causing the problem to get worse, rather than better. So it should be the last option we consider.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM

Deda, I've seen enough dead people to last me several lifetimes. I can't speak for Doug, but for me "good things happening" would be the cessation of terrorist activity world-wide with as few deaths on any side as possible.
What no one seems to really understand yet is that this is not a political problem of "have vs. have-not".And it can't be solved by throwing money at it. Admittedly it is political in some cases -the ETA (Basque separatists) comes to mind- but not with bin Laden.
Tell me, how do you negotiate with a man who is quite willing to die if he can take you with him? Give in to his demands?
bin Laden wants world-wide Isalm; nothing more, nothing less and he is prepared to kill every man ,woman, and child that he perceives as being between him and his goal. That includes most of us.
A "good thing" would be all of us ( the US and allies) getting out of this alive.
To inject a little sarcasm, I somehow don't think telling Mr. bin Laden to behave or he'll get no jam with tea is going to have much effect.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

What about the Mongols Donuel? They executed a massive landwar in Asia and Europe, and on Multiple fronts--I thought that you were amusing before, but only because I thought that you were playing the gadfly--if we are actually expected to take the proposals you have made seriously, am not sure what the reason for it would be--

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM

I think the original question was about whether Bush should get credit if good things happen. If we can get out of this with relatively few casualties on both sides, I'll give Bush a LOT of credit. It'll be hard for me, because I don't have much respect for him, but I'll do it happily. I'd give a lot more than cheerful credit to someone I generally don't much like, for a resolution with few casualties.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:09 AM

CarolC: I, for one, will welcome hearing your many alternatives.

Troll: I agree. You just beat me to making the reply.

I think one of the problems we have (you and I)discussing this with our fellow mudcatters is, they don't accept that the folks the U.S. is dealing with are not the kind of enemy we are use to. Nazism, Facism, Communism; all of them had a common goal: to take over the world. But none of them, as horrible as their transgressions against society were, advocated using using humans to blow up other humans. The only example of this kind of barbaric behaviour that comes to mind is the Japanese in WWII, who sent thousands of young men to their death trying to sink ships in the Pacific.

The people the U. S. are dealing with now cannot simply be asked to apologize and be good from now on. Over seven thousand of your fellow Americans were killed in an act of war on September 11th. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we are not dealing with rational folks here?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM

DougR, they're not my alternatives in most cases. Mostly, they are the alternatives that I've been hearing about from the many people I've been listening to lately. I need to spend a little time thinking about how to articulate what I think about your question before I answer it.

In the meantime, I'll tell you something I heard General Powell say today that I thought was extremely appropriate. I wish I had his exact words to give you, but I don't, so I'll have to paraphrase.

He said that we need to approach this in the context of being a part of the many against the few. He said that we need to be careful about how we do things or we could find ourselves trying to deal with this as one of the few against the many. He said that it would be very difficult for us to accomplish what we want to do in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

M. Ted , Lets enter hypothetical mode to answer your question of why be so careful with elaborate strategy and a world court of some kind to legitimaize our war against terrorism -

If we were at war with a nation that released nuclear radiation in the form of depleted uranium from the Mississippi to the east coast that caused a continual deformation of our infant children you would be pretty darn mad. Now lets get real...

This is what we did to Iraq on a large scale. The "DU" we left in the Balkans is tiny in comparison. Using nuclear weapons is surprisingly not a war crime. Is this ironic , tragic , or the proudest moment in the history of mankind?

Now we have a foe full of 2000 years of vengence with a nuke or two that thinks he knows us because we trained him and Allah guides him. We will win at all costs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How much will the lesson cost??: 3 buildings and 7000 lives, a city , 20 cities , 200,000 ground troops ? Will the lessons be learned ?

Is a better weapon of mass destruction the saner weapon? Are non fissionable radioactive weapons humane?

We hear about crack babies but not a word about the twisted masses of deformed flesh that are called Iraqi infants.

Patriots need not reply with "they had it coming" remarks. Nobody should have it coming, NOT YOU , NOT THE 7000 , NOT ANYONE.

There are many here that understand there is more at stake than a successful killing of bin Laden.

Deliberate calm thought is required by a kung fu master, samuri , ninga and the US to vanquish this enemy.

I am just an average guy and can not fathom all the complexities. I don't think Rumfeld has a handle on all the complexities to come either.

Here is to hope for the best possible outcome with luck and courage on our side. Don Hakman (humorist who is not amused at the moment)

PS. Tonight, 10 miles away from my home ,people were killed by a tornado that ripped through the University of MD outside Washington DC. I did not sense the power of the storm from here.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:36 AM

Donuel: what's your point?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:43 AM

Now with some of the histrionics out of my system due to tonights violent events , I may add that we may get very lucky. Perhaps the tritium in the suit case nukes has gone stale , perhaps a pang of humanity will change the mind of technician who is paid a kings ransom to maintain the terrorist nukes, perhaps they are immediately found and neutralized, perhaps they will not explode due to a drunk russian having a bad day when he made a 2 rubel part incorrectly...Perhaps we will be forever in the shadow of the WTC and feel lucky that certain battles are less costly.

Random thoughts at 2AM:

"Loony Bin" Laden (the antichrist uni bomber to the 20th power) THe mad man from Shoddy arabia , our man in Afghanistan , the misunderstood middle child in need of attention , the downfall of his people , the next war criminal to be terminated. I saw his signature today on the fax he sent and was shown on CNN. It actually consisted of a target in cross hairs and 2 wiggly lines. I also saw a video of the 1st plane striking the WTC I had never seen before.

Are will willng to shut down the internet to stymie is efforts of communicating mass destruction or have the operations already been put into motion?

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:51 AM

Hey Joe, Did You know that the British Captain who asked John Paul Jones if he was surendering, was knighted for his heroism in sacrificing his ship and himself so that the convoy of merchant ships that he was escorting escaped and was unscathed. He saved the convoy by fighting off 3 (three) ships, "Bon Homme Richard" a three decker (ship of the Line) and two French Frigates.

Upon hearing the news about the Knighthood, Capt Jones, never at a loss for words, remarked "If our paths cross again, I'll make a Lord of him" (or words to that effects.

The terrorists responsible for the Sept 11th attack, don't really know what kind of trouble they are in. Remember the "Rattlesnake Flag" with the words "Don't Tread On Me" that was used during our war of indpendence???
Well, THE TREAD ON US. and will surely feel our bite.

One really pissed off Yankee
Jody Gibson

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:10 AM

There is idealism Americans can not suffer to hear, such as the Dali Lama's teaching "to harm the enemy is to harm yourself". There is idealism that a Texas governor is the supream authority on International relations and world war. This we accept at a 90% approval rating according to official announcments.

The virus like enemy we face is said to be within the body of of country and spread throughout the world. We are poised with nuclear weapons at the ready. We are prepared day and night to shoot down our own airliners.

It will be hard to know when and how we can declare victory one day. Even after such a declared victory we will live in a psychological state of remission. If there are questions to be asked I thought I would ask them now. As Tom Lehrer said "if there are any songs to come out of WWIII we better write them now". When asked "what to do" I attempted to answer the challenge. The point that there are no winners in modern war of mass destruction , only war itself is the winner ... was understood by many.

Some of us are long winded and detailed , some of us are succinct and vague but we are all trying to come to grips with "winning" yet another domestic and global war.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM

Donuel, please cite your sources on DU in Iraq.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM

Maybe because I went to grade school in Denver while they had weekly nuclear air raid drills, maybe because my parents were well versed in the horror of war but I had this actual dream when I was 11 that remains vivid to this day.

"there was a brief simple warning on TV that a nuclear attack had been reported and there was less than 5 minures to prepare. Looking out my door I could see the neighbors doing the same. At first there was a silent disbelief but was followed in seconds by cries of outrage and blame. Neighbor blaming neihbor for an enemy unseen about to kill us all. The voices overlapped each other ,heated and wild, as to whom to blame while many scurried for cover until there was again only silence and a sudden bright light."

Having thought of that dream for many years the overall feeling I recall of the penultimate moment when all were arguing and blaming, is that we were all to blame in some way beyond our understanding.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Margo
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

You can blow someone's head off without being hateful, with no compunction, just knowing that it is the right thing to do. The action taken is not hateful. Just right. All violence is not neccesarily bad or wrong. There is a good fight.

Margo

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM

I think you missed my point Donuel--I am wondering why any of us should pay particular attention to *your* plans and strategies-- You rant and rail as if no one else understands anything but you, and I am beginning to think that you are the one that doesn't understand what anyone else has to say--I suspect we differ here, but I think you should start looking for your sock-

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM

Well Ted if you have something to say other than one run on sentence explaining the virtue of shutting up ,because you have heard it all before , we are still waiting for you to make your point. Meaning, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Take what you want and disregard the rest. I have no investment in what you wish to take seriously or laugh at with comedic relief.

If we have a potential meaningful collaboration of thought or deed let me know what it might be. A push large or small can sometimes turn great hurricanes.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Burke
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:19 PM

Deda quoted some statistics above about Afghanistan that seemed all wrong, since it's population would be almost as many as in the US. Here's information from The World Almanac Knowledge Source

POPULATION
The population, predominantly rural, may be divided into four main ethnic groups. The Pathans (Pashtuns), or true Afghans, make up about 38% of the total population and are divided into two subgroups, the Durani and Ghilzais. The Tajiks, of Iranian stock, make up about 25%, and most of the remainder consists of Hazaras (19%) and Uzbeks (6%). About 80% of the people live and work in rural areas, and many still lead a nomadic life.

Population Characteristics.
A 1979 census placed the population at 15,551,358. The overall population density was 24 persons per sq km (62 per sq mi). The resident population of Afghanistan was estimated at 14,825,000 in 1989; another 5.6 million were refugees of the war of the '80s, living in Pakistan and Iran. More than half of these refugees returned to Afghanistan in the early 1990s. The country faced a new crisis in 2000-1, as an estimated 500,000 people sought refuge in tent camps in N and W Afghanistan, and another 180,000 crossed the border into Pakistan.

Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM

Nice work, Burke!

DougR