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BS: America has LOST THE WAR

DougR 26 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM
Burke 25 Sep 01 - 11:19 PM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM
M.Ted 25 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM
Margo 25 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM
Troll 25 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 08:10 AM
CRANKY YANKEE 25 Sep 01 - 06:51 AM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 01:43 AM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 01:36 AM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM
CarolC 25 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 12:09 AM
Deda 24 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM
M.Ted 24 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM
Troll 24 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM
CarolC 24 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM
CarolC 24 Sep 01 - 05:29 PM
Deda 24 Sep 01 - 02:42 PM
DougR 24 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM
Troll 24 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM
DougR 24 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM
Donuel 24 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM
Kim C 24 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM
Troll 24 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM
Troll 24 Sep 01 - 09:43 AM
CarolC 24 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM
DougR 24 Sep 01 - 12:24 AM
Big Mick 24 Sep 01 - 12:16 AM
Lonesome EJ 24 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM
Troll 23 Sep 01 - 11:05 PM
Donuel 23 Sep 01 - 11:04 PM
Big Mick 23 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM
DougR 23 Sep 01 - 08:44 PM
GUEST,Guest, Deda at home 23 Sep 01 - 08:03 PM
kendall 23 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM
Big Mick 23 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM
CarolC 23 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM
DougR 23 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM
toadfrog 23 Sep 01 - 05:54 PM
Troll 23 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM
Amos 23 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM
Donuel 23 Sep 01 - 10:41 AM
Amos 22 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM
CarolC 22 Sep 01 - 03:27 AM
GUEST,Joe 22 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM
Donuel 21 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM
Paul from Hull 21 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM
Paul from Hull 21 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 26 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM

Nice work, Burke!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Burke
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:19 PM

Deda quoted some statistics above about Afghanistan that seemed all wrong, since it's population would be almost as many as in the US. Here's information from The World Almanac Knowledge Source

POPULATION
The population, predominantly rural, may be divided into four main ethnic groups. The Pathans (Pashtuns), or true Afghans, make up about 38% of the total population and are divided into two subgroups, the Durani and Ghilzais. The Tajiks, of Iranian stock, make up about 25%, and most of the remainder consists of Hazaras (19%) and Uzbeks (6%). About 80% of the people live and work in rural areas, and many still lead a nomadic life.

Population Characteristics.
A 1979 census placed the population at 15,551,358. The overall population density was 24 persons per sq km (62 per sq mi). The resident population of Afghanistan was estimated at 14,825,000 in 1989; another 5.6 million were refugees of the war of the '80s, living in Pakistan and Iran. More than half of these refugees returned to Afghanistan in the early 1990s. The country faced a new crisis in 2000-1, as an estimated 500,000 people sought refuge in tent camps in N and W Afghanistan, and another 180,000 crossed the border into Pakistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:15 PM

Well Ted if you have something to say other than one run on sentence explaining the virtue of shutting up ,because you have heard it all before , we are still waiting for you to make your point. Meaning, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Take what you want and disregard the rest. I have no investment in what you wish to take seriously or laugh at with comedic relief.

If we have a potential meaningful collaboration of thought or deed let me know what it might be. A push large or small can sometimes turn great hurricanes.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:28 PM

I think you missed my point Donuel--I am wondering why any of us should pay particular attention to *your* plans and strategies-- You rant and rail as if no one else understands anything but you, and I am beginning to think that you are the one that doesn't understand what anyone else has to say--I suspect we differ here, but I think you should start looking for your sock-


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Margo
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:57 PM

You can blow someone's head off without being hateful, with no compunction, just knowing that it is the right thing to do. The action taken is not hateful. Just right. All violence is not neccesarily bad or wrong. There is a good fight.

Margo


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM

Maybe because I went to grade school in Denver while they had weekly nuclear air raid drills, maybe because my parents were well versed in the horror of war but I had this actual dream when I was 11 that remains vivid to this day.

"there was a brief simple warning on TV that a nuclear attack had been reported and there was less than 5 minures to prepare. Looking out my door I could see the neighbors doing the same. At first there was a silent disbelief but was followed in seconds by cries of outrage and blame. Neighbor blaming neihbor for an enemy unseen about to kill us all. The voices overlapped each other ,heated and wild, as to whom to blame while many scurried for cover until there was again only silence and a sudden bright light."

Having thought of that dream for many years the overall feeling I recall of the penultimate moment when all were arguing and blaming, is that we were all to blame in some way beyond our understanding.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:27 AM

Donuel, please cite your sources on DU in Iraq.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:10 AM

There is idealism Americans can not suffer to hear, such as the Dali Lama's teaching "to harm the enemy is to harm yourself". There is idealism that a Texas governor is the supream authority on International relations and world war. This we accept at a 90% approval rating according to official announcments.

The virus like enemy we face is said to be within the body of of country and spread throughout the world. We are poised with nuclear weapons at the ready. We are prepared day and night to shoot down our own airliners.

It will be hard to know when and how we can declare victory one day. Even after such a declared victory we will live in a psychological state of remission. If there are questions to be asked I thought I would ask them now. As Tom Lehrer said "if there are any songs to come out of WWIII we better write them now". When asked "what to do" I attempted to answer the challenge. The point that there are no winners in modern war of mass destruction , only war itself is the winner ... was understood by many.

Some of us are long winded and detailed , some of us are succinct and vague but we are all trying to come to grips with "winning" yet another domestic and global war.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:51 AM

Hey Joe, Did You know that the British Captain who asked John Paul Jones if he was surendering, was knighted for his heroism in sacrificing his ship and himself so that the convoy of merchant ships that he was escorting escaped and was unscathed. He saved the convoy by fighting off 3 (three) ships, "Bon Homme Richard" a three decker (ship of the Line) and two French Frigates.

Upon hearing the news about the Knighthood, Capt Jones, never at a loss for words, remarked "If our paths cross again, I'll make a Lord of him" (or words to that effects.

The terrorists responsible for the Sept 11th attack, don't really know what kind of trouble they are in. Remember the "Rattlesnake Flag" with the words "Don't Tread On Me" that was used during our war of indpendence???
Well, THE TREAD ON US. and will surely feel our bite.

One really pissed off Yankee
Jody Gibson


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:43 AM

Now with some of the histrionics out of my system due to tonights violent events , I may add that we may get very lucky. Perhaps the tritium in the suit case nukes has gone stale , perhaps a pang of humanity will change the mind of technician who is paid a kings ransom to maintain the terrorist nukes, perhaps they are immediately found and neutralized, perhaps they will not explode due to a drunk russian having a bad day when he made a 2 rubel part incorrectly...Perhaps we will be forever in the shadow of the WTC and feel lucky that certain battles are less costly.

Random thoughts at 2AM:

"Loony Bin" Laden (the antichrist uni bomber to the 20th power) THe mad man from Shoddy arabia , our man in Afghanistan , the misunderstood middle child in need of attention , the downfall of his people , the next war criminal to be terminated. I saw his signature today on the fax he sent and was shown on CNN. It actually consisted of a target in cross hairs and 2 wiggly lines. I also saw a video of the 1st plane striking the WTC I had never seen before.

Are will willng to shut down the internet to stymie is efforts of communicating mass destruction or have the operations already been put into motion?


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:36 AM

Donuel: what's your point?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:59 AM

M. Ted , Lets enter hypothetical mode to answer your question of why be so careful with elaborate strategy and a world court of some kind to legitimaize our war against terrorism -

If we were at war with a nation that released nuclear radiation in the form of depleted uranium from the Mississippi to the east coast that caused a continual deformation of our infant children you would be pretty darn mad. Now lets get real...

This is what we did to Iraq on a large scale. The "DU" we left in the Balkans is tiny in comparison. Using nuclear weapons is surprisingly not a war crime. Is this ironic , tragic , or the proudest moment in the history of mankind?

Now we have a foe full of 2000 years of vengence with a nuke or two that thinks he knows us because we trained him and Allah guides him. We will win at all costs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How much will the lesson cost??: 3 buildings and 7000 lives, a city , 20 cities , 200,000 ground troops ? Will the lessons be learned ?

Is a better weapon of mass destruction the saner weapon? Are non fissionable radioactive weapons humane?

We hear about crack babies but not a word about the twisted masses of deformed flesh that are called Iraqi infants.

Patriots need not reply with "they had it coming" remarks. Nobody should have it coming, NOT YOU , NOT THE 7000 , NOT ANYONE.

There are many here that understand there is more at stake than a successful killing of bin Laden.

Deliberate calm thought is required by a kung fu master, samuri , ninga and the US to vanquish this enemy.

I am just an average guy and can not fathom all the complexities. I don't think Rumfeld has a handle on all the complexities to come either.

Here is to hope for the best possible outcome with luck and courage on our side. Don Hakman (humorist who is not amused at the moment)

PS. Tonight, 10 miles away from my home ,people were killed by a tornado that ripped through the University of MD outside Washington DC. I did not sense the power of the storm from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:26 AM

DougR, they're not my alternatives in most cases. Mostly, they are the alternatives that I've been hearing about from the many people I've been listening to lately. I need to spend a little time thinking about how to articulate what I think about your question before I answer it.

In the meantime, I'll tell you something I heard General Powell say today that I thought was extremely appropriate. I wish I had his exact words to give you, but I don't, so I'll have to paraphrase.

He said that we need to approach this in the context of being a part of the many against the few. He said that we need to be careful about how we do things or we could find ourselves trying to deal with this as one of the few against the many. He said that it would be very difficult for us to accomplish what we want to do in that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:09 AM

CarolC: I, for one, will welcome hearing your many alternatives.

Troll: I agree. You just beat me to making the reply.

I think one of the problems we have (you and I)discussing this with our fellow mudcatters is, they don't accept that the folks the U.S. is dealing with are not the kind of enemy we are use to. Nazism, Facism, Communism; all of them had a common goal: to take over the world. But none of them, as horrible as their transgressions against society were, advocated using using humans to blow up other humans. The only example of this kind of barbaric behaviour that comes to mind is the Japanese in WWII, who sent thousands of young men to their death trying to sink ships in the Pacific.

The people the U. S. are dealing with now cannot simply be asked to apologize and be good from now on. Over seven thousand of your fellow Americans were killed in an act of war on September 11th. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that we are not dealing with rational folks here?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:14 PM

I think the original question was about whether Bush should get credit if good things happen. If we can get out of this with relatively few casualties on both sides, I'll give Bush a LOT of credit. It'll be hard for me, because I don't have much respect for him, but I'll do it happily. I'd give a lot more than cheerful credit to someone I generally don't much like, for a resolution with few casualties.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

What about the Mongols Donuel? They executed a massive landwar in Asia and Europe, and on Multiple fronts--I thought that you were amusing before, but only because I thought that you were playing the gadfly--if we are actually expected to take the proposals you have made seriously, am not sure what the reason for it would be--


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:59 PM

Deda, I've seen enough dead people to last me several lifetimes. I can't speak for Doug, but for me "good things happening" would be the cessation of terrorist activity world-wide with as few deaths on any side as possible.
What no one seems to really understand yet is that this is not a political problem of "have vs. have-not".And it can't be solved by throwing money at it. Admittedly it is political in some cases -the ETA (Basque separatists) comes to mind- but not with bin Laden.
Tell me, how do you negotiate with a man who is quite willing to die if he can take you with him? Give in to his demands?
bin Laden wants world-wide Isalm; nothing more, nothing less and he is prepared to kill every man ,woman, and child that he perceives as being between him and his goal. That includes most of us.
A "good thing" would be all of us ( the US and allies) getting out of this alive.
To inject a little sarcasm, I somehow don't think telling Mr. bin Laden to behave or he'll get no jam with tea is going to have much effect.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

Kim C, it sounds like you think that the only two options we have available to us are to use military force, or do nothing. I get the impression that a lot of people in this country think the same way.

The point is that there are many other options that we can utilize before we ever think about using military force. Military force is the approach with the greatest potential for causing the problem to get worse, rather than better. So it should be the last option we consider.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:29 PM

If Bush listens to Powell, and we have a good result because of it, I will give Bush credit for having enough sense to listen to Powell.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Deda
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:42 PM

I'd be curious to know how Doug and troll define "good things happening". More dead Them than dead Us? Do you remember Mark Twain's story about the stranger's prayer?


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM

Oh, I agree with you troll.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Doug, thats the way it should but the reality is that the screw-ups will be blamed on Bush while the credit for doing it right will go to Colin Powell and others.
Watch and see if I'm not right.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM

Mick; I agree with your suggestion that it would be much better for dissidents inside Afgahanistan were to overthrow the Taliban, and I'd be for us doing anything we need to do to support them.

CarolC: Bush will be blamed for whatever. If it is a definite "screw-up" he would deserve it. If, on the other hand, if whatever happens results in good things happening, he deserves the credit. Fair?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:19 PM

With the proposed freezing of terrorist related accounts I bet processing Swiss accounts have swamped Swiss bankers as money is being moved. IT is probably already there as well as Aruba ,Cayman Islands etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Kim C
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

troll, I have been wondering about what the solution is myself, but being quite ignorant in matters diplomatic & military, I don't know. Being 34 years old I have no real experience with a war-time America... sure, there was Desert Storm, but at the time, I wasn't paying attention.

I understand the importance of protecting the Afghani people from collateral damage, but how can we sit back and just do nothing? It has already been said in several discussions here already that when being nice fails, you can't be nice anymore.

So I don't know. I am hoping for a miracle.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:49 AM

Mick, I don't believe it was the Gulf War that made bin Laden "go radical". He stated of T.V. That he has hated the US since he was a child. I'll try to find the article.

troll

And here it is: from the Drudge report and the "Online Sun"
TERROR chief Osama bin Laden has called on Muslims to wage war against the "scum" of the West, it was revealed last night.

Bin Laden made the chilling demand in a rare TV interview from his mountain lair in Afghanistan.

The fanatic smirked as he spoke of his "joy and delight" at the 1998 US embassy bombings that killed 224 people. He launched a hate-filled tirade against America and its allies.

Bin Laden called for a Jihad, or holy war, to drive Americans out of Islamic lands. He said: "We cannot leave the house of God to these malicious Jews and Christians.

"Every US man is an enemy. We demand the liberation of our land from Americans. We call on the sons of the Muslim Nation to pursue Jihad and inflict pain on America and its allies.

"We are duty-bound to protect the nation against the US, Israel and their allies, and to resist this occupation."

Bin Laden, No1 suspect for the New York and Washington atrocities, was captured on camera in 1998 by Arabic satellite channel Al Jazera, based in the Gulf country of Qatar.

He predicted a miltary strike against Afghanistan, whose brutal Taliban rulers have sheltered the exiled Saudi millionaire. Bin Laden said: "We have chosen the road for ourselves, and we are not interested by America's missiles.

"We warn them that any strikes against Afghanistan will be seen as a strike against the State of Islam."

Hate-filled ... terror chief wants a 'holy war' against the West

He smiled as he admitted he "incited" attacks on US embassies in Tanzania and Kenya: "The bombing was a grace from the Almighty, bringing delight to the Muslim world."

Bin Laden praised the bombers, and those who attacked the World Trade Center in 1993. He said: "May Allah accept these young men as martyrs in his cause.

"I view with a high degree of pride these great men who lifted the humiliation that had befallen our nation."

But when quizzed about America's claim that he spearheaded the attacks, bin Laden said: "Its allegations are void, unless it meant the association in their incitement. I admit any day that I was the one who endorsed an edict to protect the Muslim nation." He added: "Ever since I was a boy I felt hatred towards the Americans and felt that I was at war against them.

"Three-quarters of the US people support attacks on Iraq. The American President's ratings are high when he kills innocent civilians."

Of the US intervention in Kuwait, he said: "I'm sure that free Muslim women, let alone Muslim men, feel ashamed when such scum as the American army are called upon to defend them."

Bin Laden spoke of war between Muslims and "Zionist crusaders" led by the US and Israel, and called the United Nations an "infidel regime."

He added: "Our enemies move freely in our seas, land and air space, striking without consulting anyone.

"We should learn a lesson from our brothers in Palestine.

"They were known for their export-bound agriculture, citrus fruits and textiles. They later became destitutes and cheap labourers for Jews."

Smile masks a heart of hate

Family pose ... Bin Laden with 22 of his brothers and sisters Picture: CAMERA PRESS

Click to enlarge

THE smiling lad ringed in our picture looks like he doesn't have a care in the world as he poses with 22 of his brothers and sisters.

But the 14-year-old is Osama bin Laden - and within a few years the grinning schoolboy was on his way to becoming the world's most cold-hearted mass murderer. The bin Laden children lined up next to a pink Chrysler Imperial for this snapshot on a trip to Falun, Sweden, in 1971.

The holiday was paid for by their father Mohammed, a billionaire building tycoon. Osama inherited a fortune when his dad died soon afterwards - and used it to build a worldwide network of terror.

Clues that nail warlord

Straw ... dossier of evidence

By SIMON HUGHES

THE Sun today reveals vital clues that have convinced America and Britain that bin Laden was behind the murderous blitz on New York and Washington.

After the attack, a US spy satellite picked up two known associates of the terror warlord talking on mobile phones about "two targets being hit."

Then there is Nawaq Al-Hamzi, 25, a hijacker on the plane that hit the Pentagon.

He had been secretly videotaped by the CIA meeting an associate of bin Laden.

FBI agents further traced the plot to bin Laden by arresting Nabib Almarabh in Chicago.

He had been the target of a long-running probe into bin Laden's ties to the US.

Almarabh, Ahmed Al-ghamdi and Satam Al Suqmi, were suspected of channelling funds to bin Laden bank accounts.

And Al-ghamdi and Al Suqami were among the hijackers. All three had lived in Boston, scene of two hijackings, and where a bin Laden terror cell was thought to be based.

There is also evidence bin Laden made millions from dealing in shares he knew would be affected by the atrocities.

Powell ... 'US has the proof'

Top German banker Ernst Welteke said: "There were activities on the international financial markets that must have needed expert knowledge."

Some prices, like oil and gold, shot up after the hijacks.

Others, like airlines and insurance plunged - and huge profits were made.

Investors do deals to sell later below current prices, thus betting that prices will fall.

US-hating bin Laden was also linked to 1998 attacks on American embassies and is known to be the mastermind behind the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center.

Secretary of State Colin Powell has pledged to reveal US evidence against bin Laden. British Foreign Secretary Jack Straw has received a secret four-page dossier blaming him.

MONDAY, 24 SEPTEMBER, 2001


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 09:43 AM

Mick, I don't believe it was the Gulf War that made bin Laden "go radical". He stated of T.V. That he has hated the US since he was a child. I'll try to find the article.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM

*grin*

Nice try DougR. If there is an attack and the results cause more problems than they solve, Bush will be blamed for listening to the wrong people.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:24 AM

Poor Powell, if and when there is an attack, I suppose he will be blamed for not being able to control the Hawks. I still believe, however, that the president is running things.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:16 AM

Yep, Leej (great to "see" you), I agree. With regard to the tactical methods, they need to be compact and precise. I have heard much talk about taking out the Taliban. Mistake, mistake, mistake. We need to weaken them, strengthen the Afghan opposition, and let them do it. Trying to take out Hussein is what gave us bin-Laden. Our involvement on Moslem holy soil is one of the key reasons he went radical. My point is that we must approach this in a very slow and calculated fashion, or we risk creating many more bin-Laden's.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM

ROME provides many valuable lessons. There have been a few since then, such as :

Do not fight a war with multiple fronts.

Do not fight a land war in Asia.

Donuel, you make good points, but you are prone to overstatement. Did not the US achieve victory in World War 2 violating both of your rules?

True this is not a War of State versus State as in the traditional sense. This is like a massive homicide investigation, and as long as the killers are on the loose we are none of us safe. They have forced us to change our way of living, but I believe it is on a short-term basis, as any community would change its behavior if a mass murder were to take place by persons unknown . If we establish a firm objective (establishing guilt in the attack and punishing those guilty), devise a strategy for achieving this (enlist other nations in an effort to gather evidence in the investigation and capture the culprits), and keep our tactical methods flexible to accomodate the unexpected, I believe we can succeed.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:05 PM

Powell is a soldier and -generally speaking- soldiers want to prevent war not wage it. They are, after all, the ones who die.
But the war has been brought to our shores and passions run high. Another atrocity like WTC and it will be hard to stop the planes and missiles.
One thing we could do is not exercise our veto the next time the question of punishing Israel for ignoring the UN sanctions concerning settlments on the West Bank. That would send two clear messages.
1) Israel would learn that we will not back her up if she defies the UN.
2) The Islamic world would learn that we are not willing to be a party to represion.
Then we would have to apply the same even-handed approach to the rest of the world and withdraw support from any regieme we deem opressive.
But to quote Eliza Dolittle, "Not bloody likely!"

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 11:04 PM

ROME provides many valuable lessons. There have been a few since then, such as :

Do not fight a war with multiple fronts.

Do not fight a land war in Asia.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 09:55 PM

I agree, Doug, and the administration before did the same. The restraint shown, however, has been by Powell. All reports are that he has prevailed against those that want to go in as quickly as possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:44 PM

I seriously doubt the president is planning military operations, Kendall, anymore than anyother president would do. They all rely on their military advisers. I agree, however, we are very lucky to have the team of advisers Bush has.

I'm not as confident as you, Mick, that the Vice President is chomping at the bit to throw any missiles at anybody. You may be thinking of what the previous administration did under similar circumstances, though.

It seems to me that the administration has shown great restraint, though the majority of the population evidently favors a quick military strike.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Guest, Deda at home
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 08:03 PM

According to a wire service piece in my local Sunday paper, the population of Kabul is 2.5 MILLION; Afghanistan is roughly the size of Texas, three quarters of it steep rough mountain, total population about 250 MILLION (still according to today's paper, from a wire service); I found these figures amazing after the posts that have flown around about how Afghanistan has been all but wiped out already. This also puts a different spin on what we know about the Taliban, about girls not being allowed to go to school past the age of 8 and all the other extreme repressions -- this is not just happening for a few hundred or a few thousand or even a few hundred thousand women. I still have trouble believing the numbers and would like to know if anyone can confirm or refute.

In theory I love Amos's idea of getting food to the people with kindly messages, but a vast majority of the population are illiterate, even the men.

In ancient Rome, when the dominant religions included polytheistic paganism (Jupiter, Juno, etc.) and Stoicism, the ethic of life for the educated classes included an obligation of public service -- entering law, politics, or the army, following the Cursus Honoris (Course of Honor). When Christianity took hold, Augustine wrote about the City of God, which meant living with an eye to God, only, which was the opposite of, which he specficically contrasted to, the City of Rome, public service, and the old traditions. Rome fell. Of course this is not the only reason, and of course Rome was no nirvana, but with the shift in emphasis from service due to the city or the empire TO service due only to God, there was no one left paying enough attention, minding the store, or trying to fix what was wrong. Or no one with any education, anyway. The thugs were the only ones left playing.

Rome was: The greatest military power of her day; vast; wealthy; sophisticated; symbolized by an eagle; the one and only true world superpower of the time; widely resented, even hated. Does any of that ring a bell?


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: kendall
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 07:57 PM

The Afghanis are not our enemy! We should drop bread on them, not more bombs. Doug, if W has a lick of sense, Powell WILL be in charge. He knows more about fighting than W does.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 07:29 PM

As I said very early on in this whole discussion, be thankful that Condoleeza Rice and Colin Powell are in powerful positions. Their politics are certainly not mine, but they are exceedingly competent and will bring a voice of reason to all of this. If Cheney had his way, we would have launched the cruise missiles by now.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:54 PM

I sincerely hope you are right, toadfrog. If so, I will feel much more confident in our ability solve the problems we face right now.

Where did you hear this news?


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 06:03 PM

Wow, Toad! I wasn't aware General Powell is president now! I've been watching the news channels and I haven't heard a word about a new election! When did that happen?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: toadfrog
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 05:54 PM

I think, in order to win a "war against terrorism," we would have to eliminate terrorism forever. So we may win battles, but will surely lose the "war." That is considerably more than a semantical quibble. Whoever thought up the expression, "war against terrorism," unnecessarily set the U.S.A. up for an uneccessary defeat, by promissing the impossible.

From what I understand, General Powell is now in charge and is intent on behaving reasonably. If so, Bush deserves credit for letting cooler heads prevail. But his rhetoric is nonetheless foolish and self-defeating.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Troll
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 04:48 PM

Thank you Carol, Donuel. At least you have put some thught into the sujbect and are not simply shooting from the lip.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:44 AM

Powell said dismantling the al-Qaida network is the first goal. He also indicated that any military action in Afghanistan, where bin Laden is believed to be hiding, will not be on the scale of the Gulf War.

``Let's not assume there will be a large-scale move,'' Powell said. ``I don't think we should even consider a large-scale war at this point.''


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Sep 01 - 10:41 AM

. If stopping this war is the question I do not have an answer. It would be like trying to stop 1,000 supertankers at full speed from hitting the statue of Liberty on a 1 mile collision course. ': Time for all these things to happen is compromised when one leads with the fist. You can consult the art of war yourself but if you want literal war strategies HERE is one outlined scenario. Slow down... secretly cease the expected counter attack...A quick reaction would serve our purposes best with a miniature defeat... listen and watch. They will become confused between overconfidence and fear of a belated reprisal causing some mistakes to be exploited. Monitor the reaction when they think there is no massive US reponse. If a call for fatwa occurs more clues will crawl out of the woodwork and we can collect strategic bonanzas. At home there needs to be good old fashioned systemic beurocratic work with complete cross over communication between the CIA,FBI,INO,NSA,CC,DOD,Eschelon,Interpole and others . Recruit the talent you need in cyber and cultural areas that was not available or willing to help us before the attack. Set them apart from in house pros and give them a project similar in scope to WWII code breaking. Use time and sympathy of the International community well. Dry up some financial holdings, but not 'all' so you can still do in depth tracing of the money they try to use. There will be plenty of time through December and January for international support to grow. Beware of revolutions springing up in quasi moderate Islamic states like Saudi Arabia(they are not helping at this time and the King has fled to Geneva). Do not enter into their civil war. Learn from the mistakes of the Gulf of Tonkin resolution and get Congress to ask the hard questions as soon as possible. Blank checks are for blind policy. Appropriate with insight. In forming an international tribunal if the UN will not unaminously support a G5 request form a brand new tribunal consisting of Islmaic judges and near complete international representation , the obvious missing judges would be Isreal , India and perhaps even the US . IF a perception of a puppet or Kangaroo court occurs having the US publicly get denied select outrageous and reasonable requests should solve that. Go to the Hague or create one in Nuremberg if we have to. Based on the intelligence from the US ,interpole and other's evidence is presented for 2 years or more handing down public indictments that would not jeopardize the covert operations of sensitive secret indictments. As in magic , misdirection will be an advantage to get the terrorists not mentioned in the public indictments. If there is an international array of enforcment volunteers make sure they have clear cut warrants and single targets to capture. Make sure Islams know of bounties for certain indictments handed down so even a single modest man could be instrumental in handing over a terrorist. Choose your seasons and tides of PR well. Whatever help moderate cleriks can afford in the months prior to Ramadan and right after will probably be the maximum help they can ever produce. Link further extractions with the most favorable PR afforded by Islams themselves as well as bounties that serve Islam to capture Islam. Do not mix the various tribes of Islam when employing bounties. Like catchs like. Fomenting additional hatred between various branches of Islam is not to our advantage here for many reasons. Of course there are new weapons that can be used without knowledge to the outside world. Many of these as I will call them vibrational weapons are nearly non leathal and can be used with much stealth. Enough said.

Fullfill the capture of the leading criminals the tribunal granted public indictments for and call that a victory. The secret warrants may be done as best advantage allows. But like I said , I think its too late since after our rolling thunder air raid any number of crimes could be alleged against the US true or not here is the other thread.

I gave this crude idea a couple hours of thought and wrote this with no workable knowledge of existing intel programs. No crystal ball but I had inspiration from the likes of the Dali Lama , William Weld and Elvis Prestly : "wise men say , only fools rush in , but Bush can't help bombing Afghan i stan." The public has every right to want to smite the enemy right now - and we may get one or two right away. It seems that there is great hope that prudence is our on side with the statements from the DOD that this will be a very long process.

Setting the correct goal is crucial. Our existing goal is not a precise one "ridding the world of evil" but it will do until time for refining it allows.

Send US toops into the Afgan mountains of 10 million land mines? We are too smart for that. We have an advisor in the defeated Russian general that fought the Afgan war.

There will again be a time when our enemy is again our friend.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 03:27 AM

troll,

You said:

Does anyone have a coherent idea of just how the US should handle this crisis?

I've posted this on two other threads as well as this one. The first time was in response to someone's question. I figure it couldn't hurt to post it here, too.

GUEST, just a nobody... we do everything we possibly can to promote, protect, and preserve a coalition with as many countries in the world as we possibly can.

We work together with all of the countries in the coalition to come up with a plan to use diplomatic, law enforcement, and finanial avenues to isolate and starve the organizations who are responsible for the terrorist attacks. This includes holding banks accountable for any help they give to terrorist organizations by sheltering money for them.

We make absolute sure that we do not do anything to destabilize any countries that have governments who are friendly to us or who are willing to help us.

We learn to work with other countries as equals instead of acting like a father figure to them and treating them like children.

If there is anything that is going to save the US, it will be for us to learn that we need the rest of the world, and we need their help as much as they need ours. If we fail to learn this lesson, I fear that we are in very big trouble.

The first and most important thing, in my opinion, is that at this moment in history, perhaps more than any other moment in history, we not only have the compassion and sympathy of much of the rest of the world, we also have their empathy. By that, I mean that they can, probably for the first time ever, see themselves in our shoes. This is very critical, and should not be wasted.

Because of this, they will very probably be willing to work with us and help us, as long as what we propose to do helps all of us. Most other countries probably won't have the burning desire or need for retribution that we have here. Most of them will probably be interested in solving the problem of terrorism, and no more. If we use our military might in a way that destabilizes countries that are crucial to this effort, at least one of which has nuclear weapons (Pakistan), the other countries in the coalition will probably recognize that they will not be helped in the long run by these military actions, that they may, in fact be hurt, and may remove themselves from the coalition.

I did a research paper about a year ago to find out what is the most powerful motivator for people. This was not research that originated with me. I was researching work that was done by others. What I found was that the most powerful motivator is what I would call "enlightened self-interest". By that I mean, people are motivated the most powerfully, and in the most lasting way when they understand how it is in their best interest to behave in a certain way. But what makes it enlightened self interest is the understanding of how what is in their best interest is also in the best interest of others. So, obviously I'm not talking about extortion. I mean people are motivated most powerfully by what is genuinely in their best interest.

If the US says, "You must do what we want or you will suffer in some way", that would be extortion. If we say, "We must work together to find a way to solve this problem in such a way that we all benefit", that would be motivating people through the use of enlightened self-interest.

Once we have built a coalition of willing participants that is based on the idea of enlightened self-interest, we determine what the benefits will be for all of the members of the coalition. The most obvious would be to protect all of us from terrorism. Even the banks will probably suffer in the long run if terrorism is allowed to destroy the economies of many of the richest nations on earth. So, even for the banks, there is an element of enlightened self-interest in helping to eliminate terrorism. In fact, it seems to me that there are probably very few groups, nations, or other interests who would benefit in the long run from allowing terrorism to continue or to flourish in the world.

If we put together such a coalition, we will need to identify what sort of actions would be detrimental to any of the members in the long run. One example of this would be if we caused, through military action in Afghanistan, destabilization in Pakistan resulting in an overthrow of the government now in place which is friendly to us at this time, by Muslim fundamentalists who are friendly with the Taliban. This, of course would be contrary to Pakistan's self-interest (as defined by the majority of people there at this time, which would likely change if we killed a lot of Afghanis), and it would also be contrary to our self-interest, because we would then have two enemies in the place of one, and one of them with nuclear weapons.

You see where I'm going with this. So we form a solid coalition. We work with the coalition as equals, rather than as an authority figure who says, "you're either for us or against us". Then, we put together the best minds that each of the countries in the coalition have at their disposal, and formulate plans to use the tools at our disposal to find out who the terrorists are, and how leverage might be applied to dry up whatever resources they have to help them to accomplish what they are trying to do. And whenever it is possible to, try to take into custody important figures within the terrorist organizations only if doing so does not put any member/countries of the coalition in jeopardy in any significant way.

It seems to me that the most important thing we can do to the terrorists is to remove their sting. Even if they are still walking the streets, if they are perceived as ineffectual and weak by the starry eyed youths whom they would want to recruit, would anyone want to join them, much less give up their life for them? Take away the glory and there is no point in any of it. We don't take away the glory by killing them or making them glorified prisoners. We take away the glory by making them ineffectual.

This isn't in the other posts, but I'm putting it here. I think we need to get our act together with regard to basic security issues as well. Things like the air marshals and better inspection of passengers, etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 22 Sep 01 - 02:52 AM

Hello Donuel As I said in my last post to Deda they have already proven they could hurt us if they so choose.If we let them get away with this then most likely they will step up their attacks they tried to blow up the WTC before nothing was done look what happened. I would also like to point out that 40 minutes of your wifes time every day is nothing if it means she will make it home safely.

Paul from Hull 1)I don't believe we should arrest him remember all the hijackings where their demands were we released one of their leaders.

2)we have sent over 42 million dollars worth of food and medical supplies to pakistan before this even happened let alone the other monetary aid we send. the pakistan government was behind us but factions of the people said they would kill are troops if they went into afghanistan.

3) We need to strike against them now just not Bin Laden and his group but evrywhere these factions are hiding.We let them prepare for us thru our Bsing and inaction more American lives are lost I am saddened that more innocents will have to die in bombings and such but if the garden is choked with weeds even the pretty flowers must go.

4) I also asked if any of you ever had to face the school bully? (might have missed it the way my message got all jumbled together)The reason I ask is because if you haven't I don't believe you understand what must be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:32 PM

Entry by bus into Federal installations does in fact involve searches - not sobriety searches. If you have not heard of the proposed National Identity Card you soon will.

Some believe the only worthy facts in the conflict involve posting the ravings of terrorists. Others produce no facts at all and smugly snipe the conversation of others. Perhaps they believe they will be merely inconvienienced by the war. They are not expecting to die in the stench of their own small pox pustuels. Escalation to bio war is still unthinkable to some today as last weeks events were back in August.

Calm , cautious , discriminate thinking is not the sole domain of war zealots. In fact I think it is sorely lacking in the war zealot mind set represented here.

I have delineated a well organized response to global terrorism in other threads. You have read them , perhaps you pay little attenion to the attribution of various posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:29 PM

Ooops, forgot to say that that's is just my own, half-arsed personal opinion, of course..I'm just a nobody!


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Subject: RE: BS: America has LOST THE WAR
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:25 PM

Troll,

My opinion, for what its worth, is that:

A/ We continue 'harassing' the Taliban to hand him over... while at the same time continuing to encourage them (through diplomatic means) to continue to 'suggest' to him that he leaves. A re-iteration & clarification of the statement that NO terrorism, ANYWHERE will be tolerated needs to be made again, & again.

B/ We drop food, etc, to the Refugee Camps inside Pakistan. That might go a long way towards keeping the Pakistani Government on our side, despite pressure from sections of their own Population. Hopefully it will also draw more people out of Afghanistan anyway.

C/ Do NOTHING Militarily until we can increase support BY doing nothing.... let more & more Nations fall into line behind us, encouraged by the fact that we are exercising restraint. (I DON'T consider that we can claim that we have, just yet, simply because we havent struck in the past week). That will allow us to build up more & more HUMINT, & other forms, as more & more is processed... doubtless we cant have already discovered all that there is to discover even regarding the events of 11/9. Anyway, its seldom possible to have ENOUGH information about ones enemy.

D/ Bin Ladens assets may have already been frozen since '98, but doubtless there are others in the 'Terrorist community' who might continue to support him, who's assets HAVENT been seized/frozen yet... we need to get Financial Institutions to do just that.

E/ Actively RECRUIT Arabs/Muslims as Translators/Linguists, even Covert Operatives. (An ENORMOUS task, I know.... they would all have to be subjected to the most stringent Security checks, & so on). Naturally, that involves continuing to ensure that those in our own countries are not harrassed, attacked, or intimidated.

F/ Work with the Authorities in 'Palestine'. The Israeli's, to my mind, made a very bold & laudable step in pulling back from the territiories so recently moved into.

G/ Work with ANYONE who will listen, to root out terrorism & potential terrorism wherever, but DO NOT repeat the errors made in setting Bin Laden up to resist the Soviets. Gaddafi, despite the past, has, for a few years now, its reported, has been HOLDING BACK the rise of Islamic Fundamentalism in North Africa.

H/ Keep re-iterating that TERRORISM is the enemy, & NOT those who have made a tool of it in the past. We must not let any of this be perceived as purely against islam, even Islamic Fundamentalism.

Maybe with all this done, & or ongoing, we CAN consign the word terrorism to the history books.


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