Are you scared of planes now?

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 09:46 PM

I am still not scared of flying, I hope to be at the Mudcat World Gathering in 2006.john

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: 53
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 09:26 PM

i've never liked to fly and now if i can't get ther by car i won't be going. BOB

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Deckman
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 09:17 PM

You might find this interesting! Question ... will I ever fly again? Absolutly not! I was an Army medic and I had enough of unsafe choppers and airplanes then. But my fear of flying does not extend to Bride Judy. My Xmas gift to her is plane tickets to visit her best friend in Arizona. I did request that she change her mind but it is HER DECISION! I grew up in a very unsafe household. Today, my ability to controll my circumstances is vital. Will I ever get into a pressured metal tube, contolled by strangers, and fly five miles in the sky ... I don't think so! ... Bob

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Nancy King
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 04:45 PM

I wonder how much today's crash in New York will affect the way people view air travel. It sure won't do the airlines any good. I have flown since 9/11 and presumably will do so again, but I'm verrry interested in the investigation into today's crash. Jeez.

Nancy

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,maxine
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 04:22 PM

We just got back to the UK two weeks ago from Orlando (did the Disney thing!) I have to say that the security at Orlando was not great. One minute we were going through passport control and the next we were waiting to get on the aircraft. No searches-nothing. Having said that, while we were out there, I bought myself a guitar and just as I was getting on the aircraft a steward jumped out and said "is that a guitar, cos if it is it can't come on the aircraft - it could be used as a lethal weapon" !! Now my playing is bad but not that bad! Steel strings I suppose...anyway, after much begging and pleading my guitar was finally stowed away in the stewards own private locker, sparing the poor instrument from the humilliation of the hold and the luggage conveyor belt at Gatwick. At the end of the day however, it was the crews decision to make and if they really felt happier without my guitar on board then so be it.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: bbc
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 01:31 PM

I have flown many times in the past, w/ no problems. I don't expect to fly in the future, though, unless there is absolutely no choice. I don't consider it patriotic to risk my life by my choice of transportation. I prefer to have more control over my circumstances. Best thoughts to all suffering losses at this time.

bbc (in NY)

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 12:25 PM

the airplanes are, by & large, flown by trained, competent pilots and serviced by good mechanics...barring the rare accident or even rarer hijacking, I would trust them more than driving on the freeway surrounded by idiots who do not seem to care whether I get off the road alive...

Live is a game of odds, and the odds are very good that a plane trip will be safe, notwithstanding that the ones which aren't make a BIG noise. I would NOT, though, take up crop dusting or ferrying supplies in the Yukon as a career!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 12:02 PM

I ain't afraid of no planes. But many are, even in the most peaceful of times. My wife and I just flew back from Wisconsin. Everything was quiet in the airport and on the plane, but someone hit our car while we were just sitting in it.

Only goes to show..

Jerry Rasmussen

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 10:23 AM

Jeez, when I posted my previous message on this thread, I'd had no idea there had been a plane crash in NYC less than an hour before.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 10:17 AM

It is the fastest way to get ...there. I will fly whenever I can. Still.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 10:06 AM

I love to go places by train but oversea from the UK the options get somewhat limited, especialy if I am going to the states, as I will be this weekend. Still yet to try the Eurostar though.

I also enjoy flying aand its attendant bits and pieces, the movies , meals and drinks, and have done for years, both for work and pleasure. The atrocity of 11th September is not going to stop me making my journey to the States, that after all would chalk one up for the vermin that did it.

Because of the work I do I recently undertook a course dealing with the extraction of casualties from car wreaks. The instructors had a seemingly endless supply of potographic and video material to show whatever point they were making. They also stated that while cars are better built etc. than they were, the supply of up to date instructional material is not expected to diminish.

So at the end of the day shit happens, I just hope that should it happen to me I neither embarress myself or put someone else in even more danger while trying to save my own skin. We can hide in our houses, providing they don't burn down round our ears, or we can go out and carry on living.

Sledge

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 10:00 AM

My sentiments about airline travel pretty much match mmm's: I've taken one round trip in my life, from Newark NJ to Florida and back in 1983, and that put me off flying forever. There are myriad reasons for my refusal to board an airliner: the feeling of loss of control over one's destiny; the statistics, such as many have quoted, that indicate the riskiness of airline travel; the height from which an airliner can crash; the turbulence and the foul weather (including interminable delays for de-icing only to wait for the ice to form again); the rudeness of other passengers (with no way to escape from them); air quality in the cabin (of concern to me because of my medical problems); the inconvenience of pre-flight and post-flight processing; the dependence on outmoded and failing equipment and technology; the dependence on the alertness of overworked air traffic controllers; the lapses in maintenance and other procedures that allow needless accidents to happen; the lapses in security that allow hijackers and other dangerous people to board... and now the revelations, in the wake of 9/11, that show just how inadequate the security situation is, and just how reluctant the airlines are to make real improvements in security.

So I don't travel much. Since I don't particularly enjoy travelling by any means of transportation, I don' t miss it much!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: mmm1a
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 09:09 AM

Last time I flew was to my Mothers funeral, that was bad enough but add to the fact I had a teething 7 month old ,and my 5 and 6 yr old sons , didn't help matters . The flight was alful lots of turbulants. This was 19 yrs ago and I swore then I would never fly again. 9-11 only made my resolve stronger if I can't get there by car,boat or train , then forget it. Besides if you fall out of a car you can survive , fall out of a plane , your chances are pretty close to zero. mmm

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 08:35 AM

Don't know about motorbikes (cycles) but I used to love flying, then I started taking the airlines to do so. Then I got involved in "contract security". My brother, David, is a Flight Attendent Supervisor for United. I'm not afraid of flying or of airplanes (I still think they are "way cool") but I am fraid of the degree of impact the airlines have on our economy, I am afraid for the Flight Attendents who have always had to put up with more than their pay compensates them for and the security at airports scares me silly! I am very annoyed (to be polite in the extreme) with the nonsense going on in congress about providing adequate security for the airports. Two months have gone by and people are still able to get weapons on board commercial aircraft.

yikes!>

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Nov 01 - 08:25 AM

The most accurate method is to compare the number of deaths with the number of journeys made. So accurate, in fact, that this is the measure used by the industry and its insurers. This makes much more sense, because what matters to the individual is the journey, not how long it took or how far it went. Also, it enables comparison of different types of jet, both long haul and short haul.

By this measure, air travel takes on a rather different complexion. Deaths per 100 million passenger journeys are, on average, 55 for airliners compared with 4.5 for cars, and 2.7 for trains. Only motorbikes, at 100 deaths per 100 million passenger journeys, are more risky than aircraft on this basis.

from: Andrew Weir, Flight into danger, New Scientist, 7. 8. 1999

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 11:12 AM

Kendall, if 50% of the traffic fatalities involve being drunk, then 50% involve being sober. Sounds like you have the same chance either way. (Wolfgang, don't explain it, it's a joke)

Far more interesting statistics are found, and not open to interpretation, by checking the age of the current fleet of airliners. Even the biggies are still flying 25 year old equipment. Although we at times tend to think the 747 is still a new plane (and there are some new ones of course) there are many of the original production still in the air.....at least for now. Even worse, the 727 is still in service with many of it's original number flying overhead right now. What makes the 727 worse is that it's numbers of take-offs and landings are far greater than the 747. That is to say that the 727 lands and takes off a lot more because of it's sshort duration flight usage and the real airplane killer, pressurization/depressurization, has occurred much more that it does on a 747.

The FAA in their infinite wisdom has allowed the airlines to promote aviation instead of safety and many older jets have wound up with start-up airlines where they get the double whammy of age with reduced and dubious maintenance. It's interesting that the FAA would allow this, but it's only a small portion of the way they rate an airline. More emphasis is placed on "on-time" performance to satisfy the flying public ("If you've got time to spare, go by air.") than on the unscheduled landing performance or other issues of maintenance and equipment.

Sorry to put a high note on this tragedy, but perhaps the 911 events have hurt the biggies, but it may have forced some of the smaller start-ups out of business....and THAT will keep you safer (if you flew those guys).

Spaw

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:40 AM

Non-stop return to London England for $460, booked 3 weeks in advance. Prices are actually quite good the same ticket last year this time would have been $650-$800

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Flying High
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:36 AM

I am scared shitless of flying under any circumstances. However, after about 8 mixed drinks (I highly recommend) Seagram's 7 and 7-Up) it is bearable. After 12 drinks, i would get on the damn plane even if Bin Laden was the pilot. On a more serious note, I have heard that ticket prices remain high. I would think that the airlines would offer dirt cheap rates which would get some of the slightly reluctant people on the planes. I think that other people would start following suit.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:56 AM

Are you scared of planes now?

Nope! Flying to London next month as a tourist!

I refuse to be intimidated!!

Rob Dale

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: sophocleese
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:45 AM

It may be safer in terms of incidents of air rage. I just heard a story of a plane being escorted back into the airport by fighter jets and then boarded by a S.W.A.T. team. All because a drunk was smoking in the loo and refused to come out. I mean that's getting really close to dying for a smoke. The poor twit just didn't realize how nervous people are at the moment.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 03:40 AM

Well, I wasn't afraid to fly before, well maybe never 100 percent comfortable even before 911, but I sure as hell won't fly now, especially over American airspace.

The recent announcement today of the expanded NO FLY ZONES over strategic sites in the US, such as dams and stuff (and who knows what else) has seen to that. The thought of being on a commercial flight that runs into bad weather and has to alter its course slightly and is gunned down by "friendly fire" has managed to smash the last vestige of confidence I might have had. Guess I'm not going to Arizona for a visit this fall after all.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:31 AM

Jeeze, Kendall, will you stop trying to scare Peg? She SAID she was feeling a bit more secure than before, and here you come along and rain on her parade. What a guy!

DougR

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 12:25 PM

Nope. Not afraid to fly anywhere as long as there's a gig or a vacation at the other end. I love flying, airline food, in-flight movies, cabin-crews, my fellow passengers, Southwest Airlines peanuts and the antics of their staff, I love it all!

Seamus

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 10:39 AM

According to a recent survey, people are saying they are not afraid to fly, but, they prefer to be home waiting for the other shoe to drop. Peg, lightening DOES strike more than once in the same place. The Empire State bldg. has been hit hundreds of times. Consider this; when a plane crashes and kills a hundred people, we get upset. Yet, we stand still for 50,000 car accidents per year, half of which involve alcohol. Are the people in that plane any deader than the ones in the cars?

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 04:19 AM

I would query your assertion that the probability of dying in the next hour is greater in air travel than in a car.

Murray, you're completely right to question that assertion for it depends how you look at it whether it is true or not. The way you look at it it is most probably not true. The catch I had built into my assertion, however, was 'long distance car travel', the bit you have not cited. Long distance car travel is usually much safer per time than short distance car travel for a load of reasons. That is what makes the assertion in my version true under most circumstances. But I admit there are circumstances (way of defining things, what to look at, which country you look at etc) under which the assertion is not true even in my version.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:38 PM

Wolfgang, you are of course perfectly correct, there is no "unquestionably" about it. And I am aware that the statistics can be interpreted differently according to your agenda. "Death per use" is not really an apt measure either since what you really want to know is "what is the probability that this 757 will crash, either on take-off or on landing,?" which are the only times when there is a risk factor (unless the unthinkable happens) How many actually perished in previous crashes is not really statistically relevant.

I would query your assertion that the probability of dying in the next hour is greater in air travel than in a car. Only if you are less than an hour from touchdown.

The bugger of it all is that there is nothing you can do in a plane to affect your chances. At least in a car you can minimize your risk. I mean, my chances of dying in a car are much less than those of some of the idiots who pass me at 80mph every day ..............

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: mooman
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 06:20 PM

Never liked planes but have to use 'em regularly! (Travelling at close to the speed of sound in a 100 ton pressurized metal tube five miles above the ground? No... best not too think too hard about it!)Just back from a quick work trip to Northern Italy today and recent horrific and tragic events will certainly not prevent me from travelling.

mooman

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: steve in ottawa
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 05:55 PM

It's the cost of the ticket that'll keep me from flying more than one round trip this year.

Terrorists?

Terrorists would have a hard time doing more than crashing on a flight where the hostages expect to die. I think the Bin Laden people are few enough that they won't waste their suicide attackers on crashing planes into empty fields in the near future.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

Wolfgang, I don't want to minimize a tragedy but "several" dead is a lower cost than approximately 6,000 dead.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM

DougR; yeah, that, plus the old chestnut of lightning not striking in the same place twice...perhaps that is disingenuous of me.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner at work)
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

Peg. I would prefer to go in my sleep too; just like my dad, not screaming like the passengers in his car. lol Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:26 PM

Probably not, but I still remember the hijacking of a train with several dead in the Netherlands in 1977 by a terrorist organisation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:09 PM

At least you will never see terrorists crashing a fully loaded train into the center of New York or the Golden Gate Bridge.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:59 AM

Murray writes: statistics does show that flying is unquestionably the safest mode of transport

That can be and has been questioned often in the risk assessment literature. It depends upon the definition of 'safety'. You may be surprised that there are more than one definition but there are. Among several statistics used are 'deaths per distance', 'deaths per time', and 'deaths per use'. Flying is the safest if you use 'deaths per distance' as a measure (flight lines do that, of course). Flying is far from being the safest if you use other less often cited definitions.

I once did a calculation just for the fun of it and for instructional purposes when Challenger exploded. I calculated the safety of American space shuttle flights by using the definition of safety airlines use, namely deaths per distance. Flying space shuttle was about as safe as driving a car in Germany at that time. So why did the NASA stop flights for some time and did reconsider safety? Because they used another statistic, namely 'deaths per use' and in that statistic space shuttle flights were extremely unsafe.

I do not want to say that one of these measures is better than the other. Each of them has its place under the appropriate circumstances. But to say that flying is unquestionably the safest is not correct.

For those of you who are scared of flying, I can only offer you a good rational reason for your fears. The safety statistics from the airlines, 'deaths per distance' are thought to compares different means of transport over long distances and are fine in that context. Your personal fears do not compare one intercontinental flight with the next twenty years of cycling near your home (in order to come to the same overall distance). You are bothered by the question 'will I come out here safe after boarding', so you are interested in the statistics of 'deaths per use'. And in that statistic, deaths per use, air travel is by far not the safest. Same for the 'deaths per time' statistic by the way: Your probability to die within the next hour of travel is higher in air travel than it is in long distance car travel. No wonder your level of fear is higher.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 11:16 AM

CarolC. I think that anyone who isn't scared of planes and automobiles isn't paying attention. I use both but I'm wary. I think you're ok.

And yes, I look up now when I hear an aircraft, and lots of stuff can go through my mind. None of it is good.

regards, chance

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM

I checked on flights to teh Getaway and they've gone up in price since ther Tragedy. So, I checked the train, yesterday. Round trip for two, from Denver to Chi, to Philly, to Baltimore: $718!! And, that is without a sleeping berth.

This country NEEDS to have mroe rail service, to more places, and be affordable. Lacking that, I guess we'll have to fly even though I do not enjoy it. I am not afraid to, howevere.

kat

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 08:13 AM

NOW? Always! Doug mentioned that he wasn't afraid as long as the planes are well maintained. I don't trust the airlines to put the money into maintenance. Flying is inconvenient and tiring. Flying is not necessarily faster and now, with the new security systems that is even more true than before.

Consider, I used to fly to Philadelphia on business from Maine quite often. I live 45 minutes from the airport. You had to arrive 1 hour early to go through ticketing, baggage check, etc. I always had to take a flight with a change of planes. (If I wanted a direct flight I had to be at the airport at 5:00 AM for the only direct flight of the day.) The flight, including changes, generally took 3 to 4 hours. then I had to arrange my rental car, check in to the hotel, and I could finally relax. Total trip time 6 to 8 hours. If I rented a car in Maine and drove to Philly I can leave when I want, drive for 8 to 9 hours and arrive directly at the hotel. With a good audio book and good music, I don't have to jostle along, herded with the other passengers, I can stop and stretch when I like, and the whole thing is cheaper than the air fare. Go figure!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Willie-O
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 07:55 AM

Well the airlines, especially in the U.S., are certainly convinced that we're all afraid of flying now, since their patriotic response to this tragedy has been to promise 100,000 immediate layoffs.

And despite everyone's absolutely correct sentiments that the passenger rail services should be developed and improved, not degraded and overpriced, this hasn't happened.

The current conventional wisdom that nobody wants to fly anymore, is going to be yesterday's news by...next week or so. (The current rumour that a follow-up action was planned for Sept 22 will be the turning point; if it doesn't happen things will normalize pretty quickly; if by chance it does, people will really be scared)

Me, I haven't been off the ground in ten years. But I'll be going soon enough...

Willie-O
saving for Scotland

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 03:16 AM

Nope.... not at all.

If my time is up, it's up.

E

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: DougR
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:26 AM

That's interesting Peg, that as far as fear of terriorists is concerned, you feel safe now than before. What do you attribute that too? Increased airport security? Possible Air Marshalls? ?

DougR

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Melani
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 02:01 AM

I've been scared of planes since STan Rogers died. This didn't help.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 01:42 AM

Bill D, I take your point about PMs, but since my integrity was questioned publicly, I feel I have to respond publicly to LR. This once at least.

Firstly I am no racist and have never made a racist statement in my life. My suggestions about profiling Middle Eastern passengers make perfect sense from a management point of view, and if we accept that one of the priorities in this situation is to get airline travel back to normal, it will become imperative to devote greater care to screening the section of the population which contains the next wave of potential terrorists.

If the Scottish National Party ever started a campaign of international hijacking and bombing to draw attention to their cause, then I would fully expect as a Scot to be subjected to selective security procedures, and you wouldn't hear me bitching about it.

If the Japanese ever decided on a belated resumption of their hijacking activities I would advocate the same security measures in respect of Japanese nationals. And the same would go for any group which posed a threat, no matter what their color race or creed. If such procedures had been implemented by AA at Logan on 9-11 then we would not be having this discussion.

Regarding my dislike of Islam, I believe that any religion should be judged by the behavior of its practitioners rather than by quotations from whatever piece of fiction they profess to follow. In the case of Islam, I have witnessed first hand the hypocrisy, drunkenness and whoring of the Saudi so-called Royal Family, and we have all witnessed an altogether more disturbing manifestation of Islam in action. You ever see a Unitarian suicide bomber? But race never even enters the equation.

I will however settle for being a "religionist"

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Peg
Date: 21 Sep 01 - 12:03 AM

I was scared to fly before. (well, scared to crash actually)

Now? I think I would actualy feel safer in terms of terrorism, oddly enough...but that was not what frightened me before; it was mechanical failure. I still fear that.

But I fear being in cars, too. And I fear being a pedestrian espcially in Boston.

Ya can't live in fear. We're all gonna die and most of us won't know exactly when. I would prefer not to go screaming, I know that.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: DougR
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:57 PM

Why should anyone be scared of airplanes? As long as they are well maintained, have lots of fuel, competent pilots and have sufficient air in their tires, they are as safe as any mode of transportation. Probably safer.

Now Terriorists. That's a different question.

DougR

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: gus C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM

I think there is a new truth that hasn't really been widely considered- Airline Hijacking is a thing of the past. Not only because of new security measures, but, because a terrorist can no longer wave a knife or Gun in the passengers faces and intimidatingly tell them "don't do anything stupid and you'll be OK." No one believes that anymore, Passengers will respond like cornered animals fighting for their lives. The downed plane in Pittsburg was a result of knowing what the other planes had been used for, you don't need a cell phone to know what those planes were used for now.would be Hijackers are likely to not even try , and if any do they willmore than likely be stopped, if not by the Passengers and crew , then they are likely to meet jet fighters with orders to fire. I Bet no one Hijacks an airliner for at least 20 yrs, The Passengers and crew have the upper hand now, They outnumber the hijackers and they will consider themselves already dead if they don't take action and attempt to overtake the hijackers.Hijackers depend on intimidation to control the situation you can't intimidate people who see stopping you , at any cost, as their only hope of survival.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:30 PM

BillD. - are you flying to the Getaway or driving? I would like to thank you in person for being the voice of reason throughout this past week.
Mary

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Mike Byers
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 10:26 PM

Right on, Jenny the T. I've got lots of flying time in large and small aircraft, but I consider commercial air travel to be the most expensive way to be uncomfortable without having major surgery. If I've got to go somewhere and flying on an airliner is the only way to get there, I'll do it. But I surely don't enjoy it.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:16 PM

...and you can't take this discussion to PMs to sort out?....

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 08:08 PM

Well, Murray, my point was, judging by your entries on this thread and on some previous threads (mostly recent ones), what would be "self evident" is that you are a racist or an anti-Semite. And, no, I don't necessarily think you ARE a racist or anti-Semite. I'd like to think that you're just a guy with a narrow view of Islam who likes shooting off his mouth...

But what are the things that might make someone think that you ARE a racist, you might be heard to ask? (Though I didn't hear you ask...) Your links to anti-Islamic websites, and comments supporting a horribly racist conservative editorial, for starters. Ah, and these statements:

1. "The probability of any hijacker being of any other ethnic background other than Middle Eastern is zero. Therefore I would propose that ALL passengers of Middle Eastern background should be subjected to special security treatment, yes, discriminatory treatment while on board an airliner. They should have to check in well in advance, undergo thorough body searches, and should be confined to one area of the airplane under constant supervision. Like having to piss with the door open."

2. "I have to confess to having a deep, deep dislike of Islam based on my experience of meeting many of the members of the so-called "Royal Family" of Saudi Arabia..."

So... you said yourself on a recent thread that you're not afraid of being labelled a racist. But if your are NOT a racist, how do you justify these statements? (Which of course you don't have to, but I can ask:)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:47 PM

As it happens, LR, I am neither racist nor anti-Semitic.

If you really are too thick to figure out what I meant then I will spell it out for you.

Muslims are forbidden to drink alcohol. Therefore it would ruin their credibility in the Islamic world if it were believed that their nefarious misdeeds wqere committed as a result of being intoxicated.

I trust you can now work the rape bit out yourself.

Sheesh ......

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:37 PM

Oh, because you're a racist and an anti-Semite? OK.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:35 PM

Self-evident LR surely?

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:33 PM

Murray: Uh, why?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:32 PM

No. In fact, if I had to die in either a plane crash or a car crash, I'd go for the plane.

In a car, I'd probably end up on the road in some undignified position, with people gawking and taking photos to send to rotten.com. Plus, I'd be more likely to survive for a while, which would suck.

But on a plane, I'd probably die quickly, and my family couldn't do an open-casket thing against my wishes. And with a high-profile death like that, people would send lots money to my survivors.

Of course, dying either way would be awful.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:26 PM

I work a stone's throw from Miami International Airport, and I have always really enjoyed seeing the big 747's landing and taking off, sometimes so low overhead it seemed like you could almost touch them.

It was like a ghost town last week while the flight embargo was in effect, and it is so good to see things (almost) back to normal.

As a enthusiastic amateur of statistics, I have no problem with flying. Apart from the fact that I actively enjoy the experience, statistics does show that flying is unquestionably the safest mode of transport. I have no qualms either about my two sons coming out here, always assuming BA haven't gone bankrupt before then.

However if my luck does run out and I am ever on an aircraft which has been hijacked for a suicide mission, you better believe my last cellphone message before we crash will be to the FBI and the posthumous text will read "We've been hijacked by Islamic fundamentalists, THEY'RE DRUNK OUT OF THEIR SKULLS AND THEY'RE RAPING ALL THE WOMEN"

Murray

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:16 PM

I'm flying tomorrow (Dallas to Boston). Never was scaredof flying, and still am not - but have made sure all the wills, insurance, docs etc are in order for the kids ... just in case.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: kendall
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:23 PM

Midchuck, I also prefer trains to planes. The hell of it is, they dont go to England.

I have never been a comfortable flyer, and this has not increased my desire to fly. However, I will not let my reptilian brain keep me from that trip to the UK next month. Two of the airlines have sent me messages to tell me about security. There will be armed Sky Marshals aboard, and, I doubt that anyone can get a knife past the security now. My reason says go. I'll go.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Troll
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:12 PM

I'm not afraid of flying but I really prefer to have my pocket knife in my pocket than not.

troll

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Greycap
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:08 PM

I'm not scared of planes as such - I'm terrified of crashing to my death.However, it's apparently quicker than going into hospital for 'tests' and some other methods....... My 2 cents

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 04:01 PM

From Downtown NY, No. Like the buzz bombs, in the hours after the attack, when I heard a plane go overhead (airforce jets, as it turned out) and there where rumors that there was still highjacked airplanes out there, in New York I saw no panic, only concern that others may be in danger. For the most part, I saw a lot of sad, concerned, brave folks. Larry

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 03:20 PM

I don't think this trauma was caused by airplanes, exactly!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Jenny the T
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:19 PM

Afraid to fly? Nah.

I don't enjoy riding on the airlines, though--didn't before, and won't now. I much prefer Flying is only really pleasurable for me if I'm in the cockpit, driving.

I do think the recent tragedy highlighted the folly of relying primarily on one form of long-distance transportation. With the airlines shut down, the Postal Service was in a frenzy, trying to figure out how to move the mail. Business travellers were stranded. Even baby chicks (usually shipped, one day old, via air to the growers) died by the thousands, stranded in airport warehouses.

We need a viable rail system in this country. Not as a replacement for the airlines (though I'd sure love to travel by train), but as a companion to them. Putting all your transportation eggs in one basket is no recipe for success.

JtT

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 02:03 PM

I'm not afraid of planes, I'm afraid of landings, and have been for years. Now, I don't think I'd be afraid to fly, I just can't imagine it would be worth the trouble for anything under about a thousand miles... I had been planning on flying into Boston for my reunion next Spring, and I'm already thinking I'll drive instead, even though the last time took me days, and then the boys were still in diapers and I didn't have to stop for them to pee... I hear on NPR that the trade show industry is taking a huge hit as vendors, exhibitors and participants alike are staying home in droves... wonder if they'll ask us to take a train to New Orleans for our next one? I've got a song about that, at least!

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:52 PM

I will fly with no fear at all. The only difference - If I am involved in a hijacking I will assume the worst. In the past, I just figured it was a way to earn frequent flyer miles. I had a friend on one of those hijacked planes that flew all over Europe in the 70s. She put in for the extra miles but I don't know if she ever got them. It is somewhat comforting to hear and see planes taking off and landing at La Guardia. Another "normal" thing.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:43 PM

I always was scared of planes. Nevertheless, I do take them when there's a good reason to. I don't see that changing.

- LH

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM

No.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:41 PM

For quite a few years, I worked a job that required me flying a lot......Like 4-5 flights every week. I enjoyed flying and the only thing that bothered me then (and now) was the deteriorating condition of the planes themselves. The FAA has had a long term problem in promoting aviation and not safety.

If I had the same job today, I'd still fly. Right now especially, things are probably safer than in the past 30 years. But I tell ya' what.......I will never look at a plane again without seeing that second plane crashing into the WTC.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:20 PM

I love trains. I don't know about the high speed ones, though.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM

We could have had a really efficient high-speed passenger train system by now, with electronic interlocks to keep from getting two trains on the same track or go around a curve too fast...you'd still have a few wrecks, but I bet you could make it a good deal safer than either cars or planes. And it couldn't be either stolen or hijacked. And no more airport parking.

But I guess everyone thought trains were old fashioned.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:07 PM

Bill D, I'm afraid of cars, too. Pretty pathetic, isn't it? However, I have a good reason to be afraid of cars. I've been in five car accidents. I don't enjoy that sudden impact feeling at all.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 12:06 PM

The safest form of transport...

Ya... but if a car crashes, they ask, "Was anybody hurt?"

If a plan crashes, they ask, "Was anybody identifiable??"

---George Carlin--

I have always prefered flying after a few pints and a couple of whiskies... I'd much rather drive, if at all possible...

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:58 AM

Sure, I'd get on a plane. I've been on a plane many times before and I really have no qualm about getting on a plane again. The last time I flew was just after the awful ValuJet crash, and while I was on the trip, the TWA flight went down! So I have flown with the full knowledge that disaster could happen. I figure if it comes my time to leave this Earth there ain't gonna be no way for me to avoid it nohow.

That being said, however, unless we're talking overseas travel, I prefer to drive. I like being able to stop whenever I want, wherever I want, look at the scenery, take pictures, eat something besides Diet Coke and peanuts, etc. Plus nowadays I don't think they're going to let me on an aircraft with my knitting.

I talked to a guy last night who had flown into Nashville from Colorado Springs yesterday. He said they didn't open his guitar case. Go figure.

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:57 AM

automobiles run into each other in traffic every day....are you 'freaked' when you you drive? There is not enough time in the world to live in constant fear of everything dangerous. If you have taken all the reasonable precautions YOU can take, don't dwell on it.

There ARE people who choose to live in seclusion away from everything....but they don't have doctors nearby in case of emergencies. You either control your mind, or it controls you.....

not very soothing am I? sorry...I don't know what else to say

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:53 AM

No, I am not scared of planes, they are still the safest form of transport,

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,Penny S. at work
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:52 AM

Last weekend, after a gap of a few days, the Heathrow planes started overflying South London again, on a slightly different line, and seemingly rather lower than before. And everyone in the street I was in (not many) was looking up rather surreptiously, and then commenting shamefacedly about doing so.

Penny

Subject: RE: Are you scared of planes now?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:51 AM

I was afraid of planes before. Now I simply feel vindicated. (Confirmed airplaneophobe)

Subject: Are you scared of planes now?
From: GUEST,prefer to be anonymous (that's allowed?)
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 11:38 AM

I'm not too scared to travel, and would be happy to jump in a plane today (as long as it was going somewhere nice)

However, living near an airport (Manchester, UK) I find myself completely freaked as I watch the planes flying over my house, coming in to land.

It's not that I think they'll hit me, but it just reminds me of last week too much.

Interested to know what others here think.

Anon.