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Lyr Add: If We Ever Needed The Lord Before

wysiwyg 20 Sep 01 - 09:58 PM
GUEST,Alice M. Woods Samuel 07 Jun 11 - 11:08 AM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jun 11 - 01:17 PM
wysiwyg 07 Jun 11 - 01:57 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Jun 11 - 03:29 PM
wysiwyg 07 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM
Azizi 07 Jun 11 - 07:10 PM
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Subject: IF WE EVER NEEDED THE LORD BEFORE
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 09:58 PM

IF WE EVER NEEDED THE LORD BEFORE
Traditional Negro Spiritual


If we ever needed the Lord before
We sure do need Him now
(Oh) We sure do need Him now
(O Lord) We sure do need Him now
If we ever needed the Lord before
We sure do need Him now
We need Him every day and every hour

We need Him in the morning
We need Him in the night
We need Him in the noonday
When the Sun is shining bright

We need Him when we're happy
We need Him when we're sad
We need Him when we're burdened
Just to make our hearts feel glad


SOURCE:
Park New Choir, http://parknewchoir.free.fr/

@spirituals

SH


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: IF WE EVER NEEDED THE LORD BEFORE
From: GUEST,Alice M. Woods Samuel
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 11:08 AM

Thanks so very much for sharing these lyrics with me. I have had this song on my heart for quite sometime, and wanted to teach it to the Male Chorus at our church. You must know i am old school. I like all the good new songs that minister, but I thank God that He has allowed me to reach 72 lovely years and I have been in music since i was 6years old. I stared playing for Sunday School when i was 9years old. Thank you so much for allowing me to have this minute with you, and keep those good old songs available.May God bless your efforts.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: IF WE EVER NEEDED THE LORD BEFORE
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 01:17 PM

If We Ever Needed the Lord Before, Thomas A. Dorsey, words and music. Gospel.
Not a traditional spiritual.

Collected on cd, Thomas A. Dorsey, Precious Lord, The Great Gospel Songs of Thomas A. Dorsey, 1973.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: IF WE EVER NEEDED THE LORD BEFORE
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 01:57 PM

Perhaps the Park New Choir (who attributed it thus) had done their own "origins" homework; we have not yet done so, and we do not know where Dorsey got it from.

Thanks, Alice.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: If We Ever Needed The Lord Before
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 03:29 PM

The Parks are good singers, but copy and revise is their practice.

Certainly they did not credit this composition by Thomas Dorsey.
Sung by many gospel groups.

Sinai Keynotes
http://www.yotube.com/watch?v=U6NAQnVZXPs&feature=related
Hinsdale
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v
Take Six
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvAMtUDvRuw&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Samoan Gospel Heralds
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8SeOPKV1c&feature=related
?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWRZomaNUKg

Yo Sho Do Need Him Now, Statesman Quartet, parallel gospel version of the same period.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ltOdpi9p2Q&feature=related


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: If We Ever Needed The Lord Before
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM

YMMV, but my view is that like Brumley, Dorsey nabbed credit for a number of songs that may have (and likely did have) folk roots. Therefore when any published composer lists a song as "a spiritual," (and sometimes even when they do not), that attribution is taken or given as-is for the purposes of discussion as indicated in the Spirituals Permathread.

I don't think any of us, from this side of the pond, white or black, young or old, can say what the process of any European performer is or has been, given the language differences and the differences in scholarship here vs. there. The Spirituals are a well-studied genre in many parts of Europe and when an item is attributed as a Spiritual, that attribution is taken as-is for the purposes of discussion as reflected in the Spirituals Permathread.

(There is whole OTHER view of the genre for people who listen to a lot of early black gospel quartet and church singing. The roots-- and the connection to the roots-- are very clear from that view and I recommend Sinner's Crossroads/WFMU-FM for serious aficionados.)

Finally, the word itself ("a spiritual") has so many definitions across the board that it's part of the impossible quest to define "what is folk--" because it is, essentially, a part of FOLK music and thus will escape narrow definition every time.

Scholarship can, at best, add detail-- but seldom definition. I like that. Some folks find it frustrating. YMMV.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: If We Ever Needed The Lord Before
From: Azizi
Date: 07 Jun 11 - 07:10 PM

Susan, on behalf of all of those who greatly respect Rev. Thomas A Dorsey as the Father of Black Gospel Music, I take exception to your statement that it is your view that "Dorsey napped credit for a number of songs that may have (and likely did have) folk roots." I interprete "napping credit" as "taking credit for something you didn't do." This reads to me as a put down of Thomas A Dorsey [I realize that you also mention (Alfred) Brumley. Since I don't know as much about Brumley as I do Dorsey, I'll let those who might want to speak on his behalf).

I'm curious to know the bases for your views about Dorsey's "napping credit for songs that may have or likely did have folk roots". And what do you mean by "folk roots" in the context of a discussion about Thomas A Dorsey's songs?

Which of his religous or secular songs are you referring to?

   
Also, Susan, with regard to the other portion of your 07 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM comment, I'm taking this opportunity to repeat something that I've shared with you before on this forum- there are distinct differences between songs that are categorized as Spirituals and songs that are categorized as (Black) Gospel. Just because you or others label a Gospel composition as a Spiritual, that does not make it a Spiritual.

Here's an excerpt from
http://ctl.du.edu/spirituals/History/ that provides an explanation of the differences between Spirituals and Gospels:

"What is the Difference Between the Spirituals and Gospel Music?

Many people ask what the difference is between the spirituals and Black gospel music. Simply put, the spirituals are the Southern sacred "folk" songs created and first sung by African Americans during slavery. Their original composers are unknown, and they have assumed a position of collective ownership by the whole community. They lend themselves easily to communal singing. Many are in a call-and-response structure, with back-and-forth exchanges between the leader and the group. A formal concert tradition has evolved from the original spirituals, with solo and choral arrangements based on original slave melodies, employed for performance by amateur and professional artists.

Black gospel music originated in the churches of the urban North in the 1920's, and has been the predominant music of the twentieth century Black Church. Each gospel song has an identifiable composer. Gospel fuses musical elements of both the spirituals and the blues, and incorporates extensive musical improvisation, with piano, guitar or other instrumental accompaniment. While the gospel tradition descended directly from the spirituals and the blues, the spirituals have also continued to exist as a parallel cultural force."

[Formatting changed for clarity and italics provided for emphasis]

Imo, this portion of the last sentence "the spirituals have ... continued to exist as a parallel cultural force" means that Spirituals are still being sung, and not that new Spirituals are being composed [unless the definition for "composed" means that new verses are created for the songs, sometimes extemporaneously]. Songs that are composed that have the same structure or a similar structure as Spirituals aren't considered by African Americans I know to be Spirituals. We call them old school Gospels.

And example of a old time Gospel song whose structure is somewhat similar to the structure of a pre-emancipation Spiritual is Andre Crouch's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRFq-5CRNOs&feature=related

Another category of Black church singing that [I believe] is neither Spirituals or Gospels is the Black style of singing Dr. Watts hymns (including adding extemporaneous verses). Here's a link to an example of that religious music which is still sung in some churches in South Carolina and North Carolina http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skEzQq2ySRA&feature=related He Set Me Free


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