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AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul

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Amos 24 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM
Amos 24 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM
catspaw49 24 Sep 01 - 05:24 PM
Troll 24 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM
kendall 24 Sep 01 - 06:27 PM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 01:01 AM
CarolC 25 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM
Don Firth 25 Sep 01 - 01:48 AM
Skeptic 25 Sep 01 - 01:51 AM
The Shambles 25 Sep 01 - 02:49 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 01 - 05:54 AM
GUEST,Steve Parkes 25 Sep 01 - 06:27 AM
Troll 25 Sep 01 - 08:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 01 - 08:51 AM
Troll 25 Sep 01 - 08:53 AM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM
Kim C 25 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM
Troll 25 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM
kendall 25 Sep 01 - 10:53 AM
Mrrzy 25 Sep 01 - 11:01 AM
Troll 25 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM
Kim C 25 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM
blt 25 Sep 01 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 25 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM
GUEST,just another dumb-assed guest 25 Sep 01 - 03:05 PM
Charley Noble 25 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,glenda (53) at work 25 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 04:25 PM
Steve in Idaho 25 Sep 01 - 04:45 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 01 - 04:52 PM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 05:02 PM
Kim C 25 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM
kendall 25 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM
kendall 25 Sep 01 - 08:22 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 25 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM
DougR 25 Sep 01 - 08:57 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 01 - 09:09 PM
kendall 25 Sep 01 - 09:27 PM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 09:59 PM
Lepus Rex 25 Sep 01 - 10:05 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 25 Sep 01 - 10:17 PM
Donuel 25 Sep 01 - 10:32 PM
CarolC 25 Sep 01 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 25 Sep 01 - 10:57 PM
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Subject: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM

The prior segment is over 110 posts and can be found here.

Regards,

Amos


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Amos
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:18 PM

The following is from a professional soldier and officer, and a former teacher of military history. While not typical of the kinds of communications found on this forum I believe that it offers some insight into another point of view:

==================================================== Recently, I was asked to look at the recent events through the lens of military history. I have joined the cast of thousands who have written an "open letter to Americans." Please share it if you feel so moved.

Tony

Dear friends and fellow Americans 14 September, 2001

Like everyone else in this great country, I am reeling from last week's attack on our sovereignty. But unlike some, I am not reeling from surprise. As a career soldier and a student and teacher of military history, I have a different perspective and I think you should hear it. This war will be won or lost by the American citizens, not diplomats, politicians or soldiers. Let me briefly explain.

In spite of what the media, and even our own government is telling us, this act was not committed by a group of mentally deranged fanatics. To dismiss them as such would be among the gravest of mistakes. This attack was committed by a ferocious, intelligent and dedicated adversary. Don't take this the wrong way. I don't admire these men and I deplore their tactics, but I respect their capabilities. The many parallels that have been made with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor are apropos. Not only because it was a brilliant sneak attack against a complacent America, but also because we may well be pulling our new adversaries out of caves 30 years after we think this war is over, just like my father's generation had to do with the formidable Japanese in the years following WW II.

These men hate the United States with all of their being, and we must not underestimate the power of their moral commitment. Napoleon, perhaps the world's greatest combination of soldier and statesman, stated "the moral is to the physical as three is to one." Patton thought the Frenchman underestimated its importance and said moral conviction was five times more important in battle than physical strength. Our enemies are willing better said anxious -- to give their lives for their cause. How committed are we America? And for how long?

In addition to demonstrating great moral conviction, the recent attack demonstrated a mastery of some of the basic fundamentals of warfare taught to most military officers worldwide, namely simplicity, security and surprise. When I first heard rumors that some of these men may have been trained at our own Air War College, it made perfect sense to me. This was not a random act of violence, and we can expect the same sort of military competence to be displayed in the battle to come. This war will escalate, with a good portion of it happening right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. These men will not go easily into the night. They do not fear us. We must not fear them.

In spite of our overwhelming conventional strength as the world's only "superpower" (a truly silly term), we are the underdog in this fight. As you listen to the carefully scripted rhetoric designed to prepare us for the march for war, please realize that America is not equipped or seriously trained for the battle ahead. To be certain, our soldiers are much better than the enemy, and we have some excellent "counter-terrorist" organizations, but they are mostly trained for hostage rescues, airfield seizures, or the occasional "body snatch," (which may come in handy). We will be fighting a war of annihilation, because if their early efforts are any indication, our enemy is ready and willing to die to the last man.

Eradicating the enemy will be costly and time consuming. They have already deployed their forces in as many as 20 countries, and are likely living the lives of everyday citizens. Simply put, our soldiers will be tasked with a ! search and destroy mission on multiple foreign landscapes, and the public must be patient and supportive until the strategy and tactics can be worked out.

For the most part, our military is still in the process of redefining itself and presided over by men and women who grew up with - and were promoted because they excelled in - Cold War doctrine, strategy and tactics. This will not be linear warfare, there will be no clear "centers of gravity" to strike with high technology weapons. Our vast technological edge will certainly be helpful, but it will not be decisive. Perhaps the perfect metaphor for the coming battle was introduced by the terrorists themselves aboard the hijacked aircraft -- this will be a knife fight, and it will be won or lost by the ingenuity and will of citizens and soldiers, not by software or smart bombs. We must also be patient with our military leaders.

Unlike Americans who are eager to put this messy time behind us, our adversaries have time on their side, and they will use it. They plan to fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle out until the American public loses its will to fight. This might be difficult to believe in this euphoric time of flag waving and patriotism, but it is generally acknowledged that America lacks the stomach for a long fight. We need only look as far back as Vietnam, when North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap (also a military history teacher) defeated the United States of America without ever winning a major tactical battle. American soldiers who marched to war cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were reviled and spat upon less than three years later when they returned. Although we hope that Usama Bin Laden is no Giap, he is certain to understand and employ the concept. We can expect not only large doses of pain like the recent attacks, but! also less audacious "sand in the gears" tactics, ranging from livestock infestations to attacks at water supplies and power distribution facilities.

These attacks are designed to hit us in our "comfort zone" forcing the average American to "pay more and play less" and eventually eroding our resolve. But it can only work if we let it. It is clear to me that the will of the American citizenry - you and I -is the center of gravity the enemy has targeted. It will be the fulcrum upon which victory or defeat will turn. He believes us to be soft, impatient, and self-centered. He may be right, but if so, we must change. The Prussian general Carl von Clausewitz, (the most often quoted and least read military theorist in history), says that there is a "remarkable trinity of war" that is composed of the (1) will of the people, (2) the political leadership of the government, and (3) the chance and probability that plays out on the field of battle, in that order. Every American citizen was in the crosshairs of last Tuesday's attack, not just those that were unfortunate enough to be in the World Trade Center or Pentagon. The will of the American people will decide this war. If we are to win, it will be because we have what it takes to persevere through a few more hits, learn from our! mistakes, improvise, and adapt. If we can do that, we will eventually prevail.

Everyone I've talked to In the past few days has shared a common frustration, saying in one form or another "I just wish I could do something!" You are already doing it. Just keep faith in America, and continue to support your President and military, and the outcome is certain.

If we fail to do so, the outcome is equally certain.

God Bless America

Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret)

Former Director of Military History, USAF Academy


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 05:24 PM

Thank you Amos...after the first ten threads, my dick went limp on keeping the thing going.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Troll
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM

Thanks Amos. Everyone should read and heed this letter. He's telling it like it is.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: kendall
Date: 24 Sep 01 - 06:27 PM

Guest nobody, what say you now?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM

Amos: Thank you for posting this. I wish every Mudcatter would read it, but I'm not really very hopeful that they will. Why? Because the Col. says things they don't want to hear! They don't want to believe that there are people in the world who are as dedicated to eliminating the U.S. it's citizens, and other free countries, as Nazi Germany was to impose it's will on the rest of the world.

If the majority of my fellow Mudcatters do read it, they will probably pooh pooh it. What the heck does this guy know? Doesn't he realize that it is the United States that's to blame for all of this?

We (read U.S.) have been supportive of regimes that were not worthy of our support, just because it best served our best interests to do so!

We should never put the interests of the United States ahead of others, they will say. And, they will lament that the United States is rich, while many other countries are poor. That's the fault of the U.S. too, of course, even though our foreign aid may be all that's keeping them afloat.

Some Americans just love to hate America, unfortunately.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:01 AM

Don Firth: I was referring to your post of September 21st (previous thread) where you said you were not "confident" of the evidence that Bin Laden might be guilty. My point is, I doubt that the government is going to share all of the evidence it has with the general public, and I don't think it should, in the event that there is a military trial at some point.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:15 AM

I can't speak for anyone else, DougR, but for my part, admitting our contribution to the state of affairs that confronts us now has nothing whatever to do with hating the US.

It has everything to do with seeing ourselves within the continuum of events that have led to how things are now so we can learn which of the methods we have used in the past have not served us very well in the long run. We need to do this or we will keep making the same mistakes over and over.

Of course, we can choose to deny our culpability and keep making the same mistakes over and over, but I will do whatever I can to try to help us choose something different.

The idea is to do what will work in the long run, not what will make us feel better in the sort run.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:48 AM

No, DougR, I don't expect the government to reveal everything they know (I certainly hope not!), but at the time I made the statement, most of what I'd heard about the government's reaction smacked of knee-jerk, including the fact that the best they could say was that bin Laden was a "confirmed suspect." There was (and for that matter, still is) reason to believe that Saddam Hussein and/or any of a number of others might have been behind it, or were at least involved. The instantaneous naming of bin Laden sounded a lot like "culprit of the day" to me.

My confidence that the government knows what it's doing is gradually increasing, but time will tell.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 01:51 AM

DougR,

I think the problem may be just which "interests' of the US we are putting ahead of others. And how we go about pushing them. We need to accept that we do have interests and have every right to push for them, just as any country has the right to refuse. But we need to look closely at what those interests are.

Clearly we can?t roll over and play dead. What we can do is demand more for our money, power and presence than a military base and trade concessions.

When we tell a country that we support freedom, democracy and individual rights and then prop up a petty dictator because it is in our "strategic best interests" (and sometimes in the best interests of big business), then we have a short term gain and a long term loss.

We are the biggest, strongest guy on the street. What kind of message do we send when we act erratically or hypocritically? We may not care today but probably will tomorrow.

After Desert Storm we (and UN or not it was our show) allowed the Kuwait Royal Family back into power with vague promises from them to give more power to the parliament (to date I don?t think they have). How is that in our ?best interest? It?s certainly seem to be convenient and easy but is it much more than a quick fix? What message have we sent to the citizens of Kuwait?

We seem to have myopia when it comes to looking at the consequences of our actions. And a very bad habit of assuming that the rest of the world thinks, acts and responds like we do.

McArthur understood the nature of the Japanese when he took over as military governor and managed to transform as fairly feudal society into a parliamentary democracy. Lots of bumps along the way but seems to have worked.

I think we need to decide what our core values are and promote them, not play the ?practical, expedient? game or get lost in endless arguments over the relative merits of value systems.

There needs to be a set of core values that we build on. Determining them will be difficult and contentious. My suggestion is for individual rights, individual moral autonomy, and strong democratic values affecting all aspects of society.

Granted, we need to work on those in this country but the essential questions seems to be to find a place to start from that is inclusive and not limited to practicality or convenience.

Regards and good night.

John


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:49 AM

El Al has sturdy doors. As far as a self destruct program goes. what makes the difference if the pilot blows it up or the terrorist does it? Also, if they say they will blow it up, what would be gained by opening the door?

Sealing the flight crew (no 'bloody' doors at all) will not prevent self destruction (bombs) as I said in my first post on the subject, but it would have and will prevent passengers with basic weapons from making threats, from controlling the aircraft and where the bomb explodes.

What are the good and pressing reasons for not taking this action, in addition to the other increased sucurity measures?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:54 AM

The most encouraging thing about that piece by Dr Kern is that it suggests that maybe the stupid rhetoric about cowards and madmen is just that - rhetoric.

If the people making the decisions really believed that all they might be up against is a few crazy cowards and fool who got lucky this one time, the world is in even more serious trouble than it looks like being in.

Dr Kern's piece suggests that behind the hot air and the public posturing there are in fact people who are using their heads to try to understand what has happened and why it happened, and what might be done to stop it happening again.

And of course that includes looking critically at things which America and its allies has done, with a view to trying to identify where these have been contributory factors.

How many times is it necessary to say that to try to understand and explain something is not the same thing as justifying or excusing it? It doesn't matter whether it's crime or violence in the family, or vandalism or terrorism, someone always seems to come up with the accusation that trying to look at the causes is some kind of treachery.

It's as if scientists who tried to understand the factors which led to disease were accused of somehow siding with the disease. "You and your talk about diets and cholesterol - these bugs are killing people, and you go around making excuses for them, and blaming the victims."


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: GUEST,Steve Parkes
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:27 AM

Col Kern says 'These men hate the United States with all of their being'. I'm not for a moment suggesting that what they did was justified--the end doesn't justfy the means. But one of the things you (and we) should do is try and understand why they hate the US so much; maybe there is something that can be done about it.

Steve


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:40 AM

Steve, bin Laden has issued two statements on this matter; one in 1996 ( The Ladenist Epistle) and one in 1998 (the Fatwa).
They pretty much explain his position.
I have a real problem with Blue Clickeys but I'll try to get the sites for you.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:51 AM

His position, but that's not exactly the same as the people who might see him as on their side. He's a millionaire from a very luxurious background, for example.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:53 AM

Go to Click here Scroll down to the side-bar with the picture of bin Laden. His writings can be accessed from there.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:33 AM

For 4 years on the Maestronet forum I posted my concern and outrage regarding bio war research , strategy and vulnerability. I suffered the paranoid accusations but persisted despite the antagonism. Now it is on TV every 10 minutes somewhere. This is not an "I told you so" , but just an explaination .

I was motivated in part by the death of my sister in a government radiation experiment in the early sixties. It took her 30 years to die. In part by a nearby bio war lab in VA that lost all containment and nearly caused an ebola epidemic. It was all well covered in the Washington post.

Civilians worldwide watched the bio war movies and was entertained but not mobilized against bio war. I am sadly reminded of a quote of a Roman emperor resigned to his deathbed "let all the evil in the mud hatch out" I. Claudus.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:20 AM

The thing is, not everybody worldwide hates the U.S. The events of the last two weeks shoudl be evidence of that. We have a lot of people all over the world supporting us. Anyone with the slightest shred of human decency is horrifed at what has happened, no matter where they're from.

Now... that being said... there are a few who don't like us and will try to harm us, for whatever reason. They may have good reasons. They may have deluded reasons. The hijackers are all dead now so we don't really know what their actual reasons were, and they're not going to tell us.

When I was a freshman in high school, I was mercilessly bullied by an older girl named Connie, who used to be my friend. I said, why are you doing this to me? She said, somebody told me you called me a bitch. Well, I never said any such thing, but she was convinced I had, and would not listen to me no matter what.

Connie was sure she had a good reason for wanting to kick my ass. But I never said an unkind word about her. I didn't deserve it. I didn't ask for it. But she thought I had.

I'm not sure where I'm trying to go here... I have already said that I have trouble understanding why people feel the need to be ugly to one another... I guess what I mean to say is, those who hate us believe they have a good reason for doing so, and we are urged to see their side of the story.

All right then. Did it ever occur to them that maybe we have a good reason for doing the things we do? Does no one urge them to see OUR side of the story?

Anyway, I am just rambling, don't anyone take me serious here. These are just some of the things I have been turning over in my head, trying to make sense of it all...


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:33 AM

Kim C, unfortunately, to fanatics there is only one side of the story; theirs. They have absolutely NO interest in knowing our reasons for anything.
To them what we have done is wrong and inexcusable and thats all they need to know.
And WE don't really need to know why they are mad at us as far as they are concerned. Their reasons are sound by their way of thinking and thats all they care about.

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: kendall
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:53 AM

Doug, I wish I could forgive what we have done to people around the world as easily as you do. Troll, it IS important why they hate us.We will never lick an enemy whom we dont understand. Proof? VIET NAM.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:01 AM

Yes, it's important why they hate us, but we aren't going to change, are we?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Troll
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM

Sorry Kendall. Poor communication. What I meant was they don't care if we know and/or understand why they hate us.
Mrrzy, from your comment I take it that you feel we brought it on ourselves because of some policy that you don't agree with. Is this correct?

troll


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:10 AM

"there is only one side of the story; theirs. They have absolutely NO interest in knowing our reasons for anything. To them what we have done is wrong and inexcusable and that's all they need to know."

True. And that unfortunately is just the way a lot of people seem to see it from this side as well. (What are we supposed to call it? The Allies? The terminology hasn't been worked out yet, has it.) Saying the enemy is evil may be true, it may help morale or something as well even. But it is no help whatsoever in anticipating what they might try to do next. Understanding them can help you do that.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 11:33 AM

It's absolutely true that one must know their adversary in order to achieve victory, whether it's war or chess or poker. I won't argue that a-tall.

Sigh.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: blt
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 02:46 PM

Trying to understand this mess is a necessity. As I cruise through websites from The Nation, BBC, the Quakers, CNN, and my local papers, I am overwhelmed by the information. Digesting all of it is a constant and not so appetizing task. I am also overwhelmed by the scale of things, and of being one human being, still alive, in the midst of it. It is as if I see myself as standing in the debris field, constantly.

I believe that the ability of the US military to conceive of an effective response to terrorism is severely limited by the scope of current tactics. I have no personal experience of the military, I just see that the rhetoric points one way and the reality of the situation another. It is as if the government believes that sounding resolute and simply being the United States is enough; as if just being angry is enough; as if the military cannot imagine any other role than that of ground troops, specialized forces, and smart bombs. It really shouldn't be surprising that a small group of individuals could successfully attack the US by using tactics that, even to my very un-militaristic mind, seem remarkably simple.

I don't think the US is to blame so much as I think the US is accountable for pursuing and supporting policies that disenfranchise people, both inside and outside the US. This is not to say that extremist and repressive governments such as the Taliban are on the same footing as the US government--the playing field is hardly level--but that it's clear that Western ideologies are not sacrosanct. Understanding this mess first of all means understanding ourselves. It's a first lesson in most anger management programs, to take a step back, breathe, and think. Of all the polls I've read, the most positive results were that 78% believe it is more important to wait to take military action (NY Times poll on 9/20).

blt


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:03 PM

Kendall, Not sure what you want to hear.

What say I now, I read the post. I agree with it. We have never fought a war like this... it will be prolonged. It will be bloody. What's your point? Does it lesson my backing of the president? Does it lesson my resolve to support the government and it's use of the military?

No....

And before anyone starts talking about how different I would feel if I had to be the one to fight. This fight, will be fought here. Not by armies, but by a handful of people that will kill citizens. On my way to work I pass by many 'targets' 2 Airports, One shipping port, one major hospital, McDill airforce base, and two power plants. Am I worried? Yes. Does that fear errode my confidence in our government and our military? No. I will fear, but I will not change my resolve. Sorry if you think that it would Kendall. I'm no war monger, I am very afraid. But I will not let fear win out in the end. I just hope, I pray, that if this turns into a war. America's resolve will remain strong. That we will not betray those soldiers that fight for us. And they do fight for all of us, even those that don't want to fight. That is why I respect thier job, and hope we never see the citizens of this country ever turn thier back on them like they have in the past. And if that makes me a War Monger, then I suppose that is what I am. But I will be a man proud of the soldiers, a warmonger that will gladly applaud them for the sacrifices they are willing to make, that so many of us (Including myself) can't and won't make. I owe them that much.

Love, hugs and kisses....

Just a War Monger.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: GUEST,just another dumb-assed guest
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:05 PM

Amen, blt, to paragraphs 1 and 3 (so long as paragraph 3 is seen as appropriately limited in its impact. Plaxcing it as third of three was a good choice, IMO.) On paragraph 2, however, I think the administration is carefully and appropriately treading a difficult path in maintaining public confidence and resolve.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 03:30 PM

Another one of my friends had forwarded Col. Kern's thoughtful letter to me the other day. As with the "Afgan letter" I sincerely hope there is a "real" person behind it. And I do hope there are some similar military and international policy people working on our response to these terrorist acts.

Aside from George W.'s foolish statements, I'm generally impressed with what the Bush Adminstration is saying. I'll probably be less impressed with the civil rights that will be abused in the process of investigating the terrorist acts, but then I can always join those who are concerned by funding law suits to punish the abusers.

I also hope that our long term relationships with our new "allies" in this fight to root out terrorism, do not end up inflicting more terrorism on us in the years to come, but I suppose that's being too thoughtful.

I wonder where I filed that old protest song I wrote back in 1990 just before we began the ground war in the Persian Gulf? Sigh, it was obsolete within a week.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: GUEST,glenda (53) at work
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM

Applause! Applause! - to the one who signed in as 'just a nobody'

"Just" an American - One who also wants to see us, as a country, maintain resolve and support for our military who have gone to fight for us. Let's not let our fear or doubts prevent us from standing for what we believe in. Even if we would not have chosen to go to war, let's be sure to offer the support those who serve need. None of us would have chosen war. But we HAVE been attacked!

glenda


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:25 PM

Glenda: One thing there is little of on the Mudcat, is doubt. I'm with you and "Just" though and believe the best thing Americans can do at this time is to support the President, his advisers and the Congress.

Kim C.: I agree with you 100%! I hope someone among Bush's influential advisers is someone who THINKS like a terriorist.

Kendall: I think were you to take a legal size lined tablet (you know the yellow colored ones) and make two columns, one of them things we (the U.S.) have done to harm the world, and the other, things we have done to help the world, you would find the second column so much longer than the first one, you'd have to get another tablet to list them all.

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:45 PM

I've noticed a few notes in reference to the troops that go in our stead. I'm a pacifist - to a degree. Having fought in Viet Nam and "experienced" the homecoming so common back then. I'm near tears when I see these references to support for the troops - whether we agree with the cause or not.
"When Johnny comes marchin home again, Hurrah - Hurrah . . . . .

I don't know if this is thread creep or not (actually do not know what that means) but a Veteran of Korea died yesterday. A Shoshone Warrior who joined as a SeaBee but ended up behind a machinegun on the Pusan Perimeter in Korea. Always a happy person to be around, gave me a key to his home, where I lived for two years, said what he meant and meant what he said. I will miss him dearly -

He would have loved to hear the words about supporting the troops. Ask some of the Indian Veterans about their home coming - I am proud to have known him - be proud of those who serve you -

Peace - Steve


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 04:52 PM

Let's not let our fear or doubts prevent us from standing for what we believe in.

--glenda

Those of us who are advocating for things like not striking back in anger, and trying to understand how the actions of the US in the past have contributed to the world situation, and who would like to see us correct these things are standing for what we believe in. We are not letting our fear or doubts prevent us from doing it.

And DougR, it is not doubt that drives our resolve to do what we can to try to help create a better outcome. It is our conviction that there can be a better way that drives us to do it.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:02 PM

The threat we face is great and serious. Rumsfeld repeated this many times today. To guard against a demoralized public we are being preped for the possibility of losing several cities to weapons of mass destruction. More anger and recriminations will result but our resolve to persevere as a nation will remain regardless of leadership. The sacrifice is to be made by civilians and military alike as demonstrated by our enemy. This modification of war has always been around but WWII made it the norm.

Anyone that says that America has contributed to the attack is not attacking our morale to fight back but asking the necessary questions to strengthen morale. Having the answers to how not to repeat mistakes of the past is merely common sense. To equate asking the hard questions with the degree of ones patriotism is wrong.

The quality of being an American is distinctly different than the quality of accepting American government as infallable.

Anyone here recall the Paul Robeson song 'You know who I am' ?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM

I wish my daddy were here to tell me what he thinks. He was pretty much always right.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:00 PM

So, on the one hand it's important to try to understand the mind of the terrorists, but on the other hand it is wrong to look at what things America has done which may have helped shape that mind.

I don't find easy to reconcile those two positions. Clearly some people seem to have managed to do so.

Whether the stack of things a country has done that's benefited people is higher than the stacks which have hurt people is an interesting mind experiment, though I can't really imagine how you could calibrate that kind of thing. But I can't see that it is too relevant anyway.

What I mean is this. If the people who are closest to you have been hurt by somebody, I doubt if you'd be too interested in good deeds done by that somebody to third parties elsewhere.

A thought experiment. Imagine that evidence were produced that showed conclusively that Bin Laden's organisation had been responsible for the attacks on September 11th - and also that, through various charitable works the same organisation had saved tens of thousands of people from dying from famine and disease.

It just wouldn't be relevant, would it? It wouldn't be something to set in the balance against September 11th - "Six thousand dead in the attack - twenty thousand saved in the famine. That's a credit balance of fourteen thousand. So thank you, on balance you're a good fellow."


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM

A trivial point maybe. I've notice people keep referring to 9/11 - well in many parts of the world, for all I know most parts of the world, 9/11 mean the Ninth of November. And that includes the parts of the world that hundreds of those people came from.

I think it'd be less confusing to refer to the Eleventh of September as the date of the tragedy.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: kendall
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:05 PM

Doug and Troll are always "right" Doug, you are right on the money with your column thing. However, We didn't get attacked for what we did right. You must come to grips with the fact that we have done things that pissed them off! That's what we are dealing with, and, looking the other way is not going to help us. Stop squirming and face the facts! Nobody, I got the idea from past posts that you favor a military response, and that letter from one who has been there tells it like it is. We may be forced to go to war, but, let's exhaust all other reasonable options first. If they use germ warfare, will we be justified in "dropping the big one"


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 06:19 PM

kendall, if terrorists use germ warfare against us, who would we be justified in nuking?


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: kendall
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:22 PM

Thats my point Carol C.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:31 PM

What did we do to piss them off, Kendall? We exist....

There is no distiction between citizen and soldier, sex, color, age, nationality, or religion. American is the only qualification they have. Yes, they spout off how we have supported Israel, turned our back on the Palastinians. Are you asking if we have done horrible things. Most certainly we have Kendall. But, lets paint a hypothetical picture. Assume this country was isolated. We kept our military only for self defence and maintained a humanitarian outlook for the rest of the world. As we supplied food to the hungry, supplies to build, and aid in time of disaster... lets say across the board, we did not care about politics, faith, military... only the suffering of others that we could help. Would that keep us from making enemies? Provide food to those suffering in Iran and they will hate you in Iraq. So we do side, with what is in our best interest. Sometimes we do not see the long term consequences, but we try to balance it out. They hate us because we do not believe as they do, that the Jews should be irradicated. They wish control over the super powers to thier own ends, not for the betterment of people as a whole. The best line I heard was a documentary about Bin Ladin...

"After bringing one super power to its military knees (the soviets) Bin Ladin turned his eyes to the next superpower." *rough quote*

I do support a military stance, it does not mean supporting war. But, we were attacked... is that thought so elusive? We are not walking in with guns blazing, there is alot of thought on what needs to be done to prepare *IF* we need to use the forces we have gathered. I challange any of the people that think that we are so hasty to tell me what they know that the government does not know. I hate to think that someone has special information that they do not know... But the assumption that I am hearing is that WAR mean droping nukes and killing babies. I think the administration will avoid these things at all costs, short of sacrificing our country. Could there be a nuclear exchange, let us pray not, but there is a slim margin of probability, very slim. Chemical and biological, possible, much more likely than nukes...

Carol, I do respect your view. I wish more people saw the world as you do... or actually followed it. But in this world it is rare that the fist is second. The WTC should show you that. I am not trolling, but what is the point where you say, no more, it's time to fight. The next attack, the next threat? I am not flaming you, but I honestly would like to know. And I agree completely, who would we nuke? Good question, and when you have to ask that, then it is a good idea not to consider it an option.

Kendall to answer that question, I think you need to take a good look at what our military is willing to do to protect it's people from such attacks. A bio attack could result in us using ordinance against ourselves. To prevent the spread. Horrible but a grim reality. But to a country that did that to our men and women... there would be no mercy.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM

"But to a country that did that" - but this one isn't about countries doing things is it? If that kind of thing were to happen the overwhelming likelihood would be that the operation was carried out and organised in the countrty that was being targetted.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: DougR
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 08:57 PM

If EVERYBODY in the world thought the way CarolC thinks, it would, in my opinion, be a perfect world. The trouble is, also in my opinion, a minority of the people in the world think as she does.

Kendall: of course we (the U.S.) has done stupid things. That's why there are two columns on your pads. I don't believe, however, that the government, regardless of who is at the helm (Democratic or Republican or Green Party, or whatever) is ever going to establish U. S. policy by POPULAR vote! That's where I think you, CarolC and the majority of the posters here will continue to be frustrated.

I can see it now: some future president, before he decides to recognize and assist a government in some country somewhere in the world sends ballots to the whole population and asks for a vote as whether or not we should do it. Even if this unlikely event were to occur, one could never be certain that they would be on the winning side. What does one do then? Carp, carp, carp. Second guess, second guess, second guess! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:09 PM

Sorry kendall. For some reason, my brain has been transposing some of the words I've been reading today. I read your words as "we will be justified" rather than "will we be justified".

I need to get my brain working better before I can read or respond to any of the other questons or remarks directed to me.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: kendall
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:27 PM

GAWD!! This is SO damned frustrating!! Listen to what I'm saying you two! We pissed them off, they attacked us. They did not attack us because of what WE think, they attacked us because of what THEY think! What is so hard to understand about that? While you are busy justifying what we have done to them, and condemning what they did to us, consider this, It is always easier to lay blame than to solve the problem!

According to the latest news, we are gathering a lot of support, even from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the United Arab emerates. We are supplying the Northern Alliance with weapons. GOOD, let them settle his hash. It would be more satisfying to hit them hard, but, it would be more sensible to let the allies do it.

Finally, I'm not argueing with you Doug, and justa nobody, I'm simply pointing out some facts that you dont seem to want to see.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 09:59 PM

I did a WTC disaster painting 5 years ago and forgot all about it until the person who bought it emailed me today.

A 16 sq.ft painting of exploding skyscrapers with an F16 and hands reaching toward heaven has caused the buyer to email me after all these years. I put it on ebay 5 years ago entitled 'Horrendous Horrible Awful Horrific Painting'. Here is here email from today:,,,,,,,,,

Well, well, well! Who would have thought that your "Tidal Wave" painting, complete with airplane, would providentially capture what has transpired??? I just realized this AM while passing it, that the upreaching hands, the towers (imagine!), the entire maelstrom of it all not only illustrates, but eerily mirrors all the horrific images shown on the news channels. WOW! When the timeliness of the painting slapped me with the "AHA!" Syndrome, I got goosepimples. Anyway, I've upgraded (retitled) the work from "Tidal Wave" to "Whirl Trade." Got to go--can't write because my goosepimples are getting in the way. Best regards, Jonie

here it is:
http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/wtc.html


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:05 PM

Damn, Donuel. That's eerie...

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:17 PM

Sorry you are so frustrated.... so ok... from what Bin Ladin has said, we need to arm the palistinians, lay sanctions against Israel, and remove our troops from 'muslim' soil... ok... that will solve everything.

Kendall, What is your solution to solving this global popularity contest? You assist one group another WILL be upset. If you feed one group of people, there will be another group pissed because you have done that. You assist one country that was invaded, you piss off another group of people. What is it you think we should do? Isolationism is no answer, we would have enemies because we would be uncaring to those that asked for aid. How long would we last trying that? Ok... I also want to know... what did we do to "Them"? What attack, what assault, what butchery did we commit to Bin Ladin? What in the hell did we do that we should understand that justifies the death of 7000 people? Jesus man... does this mean we should stop and try to understand 'why' a man walks into an abortion clinic with a bomb? Because he feels that he was wronged and had no other way of lashing out? Don't give the murdering bastard the excuse. Do I believe the US is flawless, no. We have done boneheaded things in the past. It just seems that you want us to understand, then what? I do understand why.... so now that I do... what? What should I think Kendall? Please tell me how I should think so you are not so frustrated. Since I understand, should I believe that we do not need to respond? Should I think that because to Bin Ladin *HE* was justified that I should have any mercy?

I think what frustrates you more Kendall, is that you have made your mind up one way. You simply pointing out what we refuse to see? Don't flatter yourself that much. Just because we do not come to the same conclusion as you does not mean we have not accepted our own failings.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:32 PM

Thank you Guest just. You do have understanding of the balancing act of war we are in and clearly have compassion for the victims as we all do. There are people who do not understand. There in lies a danger of unbridled patriotism that can lead to vigilantes and extremes that will not serve our country well.

Hope your baby is better. We had to put ours on antibiotics and he is feeling better . The rest of us are just plain run down.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:32 PM

I think what is needed, and I think this may actually happening, is a shift of focus. From a mentality in which we think of ourselves as separate from the rest of the world, and only cooperating when it serves our interests, to a mentality in which we see ourselves as a part of a larger whole, and we act in whatever way is in the best interest of this larger whole.


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Subject: RE: AMERICAN ATTACKS**PART ELEVEN: Long Haul
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 25 Sep 01 - 10:57 PM

Don, Baby is fine, we refuse antibiotics for a while. His pediatrition gave him too many for too damn long. Found out when nothing was helping us with a strep infection he had. Thank you for seeing that just because we do not agree on the specifics means that one of us can't see what has happened.

I do appologize for the gruffness of my previous post. But being told I refuse to see the reasons simply because I do not come to the same conclusions as others is rather insulting.

Carol, I'll vote for ya.... In order though for your ideas to fully be implemented, it seems to me that most of the world would have to think as you do. I wish it did. But even if most of the world did, you would still have dissidents... how would you handle that? I mean if you ruled the world? *not a flame I do respect your view and you have always obliged answers... even when I rant a bit harshly* I am curious, knowing what a delicate balance you would have... what would you do with the Bin Ladin's if your plans could be implemented.


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