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BS: Here be dragons....

Chip2447 30 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM
CarolC 30 Sep 01 - 12:41 AM
Sorcha 30 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM
CarolC 30 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM
Jon Freeman 30 Sep 01 - 08:40 AM
McGrath of Harlow 30 Sep 01 - 12:51 PM
SINSULL 30 Sep 01 - 05:08 PM
Mr Red 30 Sep 01 - 05:54 PM
Gareth 30 Sep 01 - 07:15 PM
CarolC 30 Sep 01 - 07:18 PM
Jon Freeman 30 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM
Joe Offer 30 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM
Chip2447 30 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM
Troll 01 Oct 01 - 12:16 AM
Bert 01 Oct 01 - 01:39 AM
Madam Gashee 01 Oct 01 - 03:19 AM
Jon Freeman 01 Oct 01 - 07:13 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 01 Oct 01 - 07:17 AM
Nemesis 01 Oct 01 - 10:31 AM
Grab 01 Oct 01 - 11:10 AM
GUEST 01 Oct 01 - 11:30 AM
sian, west wales 01 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM
Mrrzy 01 Oct 01 - 01:18 PM
CarolC 01 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM
Chip2447 01 Oct 01 - 04:23 PM
CarolC 01 Oct 01 - 04:43 PM
Mr Red 01 Oct 01 - 06:38 PM
Nemesis 01 Oct 01 - 09:44 PM
CarolC 01 Oct 01 - 09:53 PM
Paul from Hull 01 Oct 01 - 10:09 PM
DougR 01 Oct 01 - 10:35 PM
CarolC 01 Oct 01 - 10:48 PM
Paul from Hull 01 Oct 01 - 10:56 PM
CarolC 01 Oct 01 - 11:10 PM
Nemesis 02 Oct 01 - 04:48 AM
CarolC 02 Oct 01 - 11:19 AM
Paul from Hull 02 Oct 01 - 12:23 PM
Nemesis 02 Oct 01 - 08:48 PM
CarolC 02 Oct 01 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,Celtic Soul 03 Oct 01 - 10:25 AM
DougR 03 Oct 01 - 06:03 PM

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Subject: Here be dragons....
From: Chip2447
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:30 AM

I just got home from the Kansas City Ren Fest and noticed a rather large police/security prescence. As many of you may know, it also happened to be the debut Nascar event at the brand new race facility in Kansas City. Said racetrack is about 5 miles as the crow flies from the Ren fair.
There were at least one police and one (armed?) National Guard helo shuttling back and forth between the fair and the track all day...
One cropdusting plane, and probably 150,000 people gathered in one small area could have been nasty... Is this veteran seeing ghosts where none should be? Chip2447


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:41 AM

I had a bit of a scare today, myself. I heard a whole lot of fighter jet activity over the area where I live, which is not something that generally happens around here. And it lasted for quite a while. It seemed like they were circling around at a fairly low elevation. I got a bit nervous.

I found out later that Pres. Bush went to Camp David, so I'm assuming that the fighter jets were escorting him and checking things out. I'm pretty much right under the flight path between DC and Camp David. I felt a bit better after I figured that out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 01:02 AM

Hell, the turkey buzzards have been circling lil' ole' Torrington for over a week now. It's called a "migration flock"...........it's NOT because a whole lot of people are going to die here..........it's just a large flock of turkey buzzards.

I'm sorry, I don't really mean to make light of your concerns, but let's be real about concerns......

I am just really tired of the "buzzards are circling" mentality...........I live about 15 miles from one of the biggest MinuteMan missile sites in the lower 48........sheesh. If I and mine are going to die, I just hope we do it immediately.......not a long drawn out "On The Beach" type thing.........

I do know a lot of "survival" techniques and skills; I just really would prefer not to have to use them...........SOS around here now means Same Old Shit.......we die or we don't............EndGame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 01:10 AM

If I ever see a glow-in-the-dark fiddle player heading my way, I'll know who it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 08:40 AM

And I was thinking of the Welsh (well I think they were London based but did some Welsh stuff and had some Welsh members). They played at the Conwy Festival - some of thier stuff was sort of Pogues like - great bunch of people - they were open to joining in with jams in addition to the program. Anyway, I don't know if they are still going but here is a URL I've just found.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 12:51 PM

If it happens, it happens, if it doesn't it doesn't. You just get on and live your life in the meantime. That's how it's always been. No point in worrying about it.

Maybe it helps to have been a child in the Blitz.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 05:08 PM

A plane flew over very low one night this week at about 3AM. I was instantly awake and waiting in dread for it to hi the ground - it didn't. Several neighbors had the same reaction. Ridiculous, I know. Common sense says that the next terrorist attack will not use the same ploy. Ah well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Mr Red
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 05:54 PM

SINSULL
'tsa natural reaction
double bluff is ever in my mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:15 PM

Perhaps I' am being fatalistic, but "If its got your name on it !!"

It's different here in Wales, as the Us of A is sooooo much bigger, but we tend to get used to low flying Air Craft - well the RAF must practice hill dodging (low flying) On the back road between Builth and Aberystwyth a couple of years ago I was overtaken by a pair of RAF Hawks, on the inside (left) and 100 feet lower down the valley side ! Interesting !!!

That being said about 12 years ago, when my late father could still walk with the aid of a zimmer frame, I was detailed off to drive my parents on a "sentimental" tour of North Wales.

Fine, untill we were on the road past lake Bala. Then the fun started. There wsas a Nato exercise on, and a couple of USAF A-10's (Warthogs/Thunderbolts)were doing practice runs along the road.

Myself, I was praying no BF armourer had left live rounds "up the spout".

"What are those Planes" asked father ? " US Thunderbolts", I said - a mistake. Wether he saw the USA markings or the straight wings, or just the name I don't know. He had a flash back to 1944/5.

It was an intersting minute. Trying to steer with one hand, and restrain this disabled veteren fron throwing my mother out of the car (Auto) and jumping out himself, with the other.

Just one of those things I supose - but it shows how long the Phycological damage lasts.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:18 PM

I know I don't speak for all US Americans when I say this, but I know I do speak for some. There is a different kind of stress that can come with living in a country that not only has the capability of destroying the world many times over with nuclear weapons, but that has actually used used them on civilian populations during war time.

If you don't live a country with that kind of history, no matter how may blitzes you've lived through, it's not possible for you to understand. For some of us, it's a feeling of responsibility to do whatever we can to try to help prevent the worst from happening. So for that reason, for some of us, times like this are particularly stressful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:28 PM

Gareth, thinking North Wales, the Llanberis pass was a good place - you could be above the jets which presumably came from RAF Valley on Anglesey/ Ynys Mon.

I'm in Norfolk now and not too far from RAF Coltishall where they fly Jaguars. I don't see much of them but seeing the odd one fly over is nothing unusual.

In the past, the one thing that used to concern me a little was seing a flight of Hercules? (big prop things and say 5 of them) going over where I lived (Bryn Pydew - a village 4 miles from Llandudno) to Valley. I know Valley is mostly training but co-incidence, my imagination or otherwise, I seemed to observe more of that movement at times like the Gulf problem...

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:44 PM

The Red Army Faction was active in Germany when I was stationed in Berlin in 1972-73, and then there was that horrible incident at the 1972 Olympics in Munich. After a while, you get used to it, and life goes on. You realize that even though your city may have a few terrorist incidents every year, it's unlikely that you will be a victim. It would be very difficult for terrorists to kill more than we kill on the highways. Even when bad things like this happen, most of life is still good.
FDR spoke the truth when he said that the only thing we have to fear, is fear itself.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Chip2447
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM

The low flying A/C dont bother me, like I said, I'm a veteran...worked on the flight deck of a helo carrier. The Ren fest and the race went on as normal, a few people commented on the helos, in fact I think that few actually noticed them. Are we too complacent, in our own well being?


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Troll
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 12:16 AM

Chip, which helo carrier (LPH?) and when. I spent three years on an eggbeater farm, '64 to '67. USS GUAM LPH9. I'm a plank owner.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Bert
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:39 AM

Here be dragons. For those of you who missed it Jon was referring to the Welsh flag "The Draig Goch" (The Red Dragon)


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Madam Gashee
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 03:19 AM

Actually it's the "Y Ddraig Goch". The word 'THE' in front changes the 'D' of Draig to Ddraig!


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 07:13 AM

Acutally, Bert I wasn't reffering to the Welsh flag. I was reffering to a band called "Here Be Dragons".

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 07:17 AM

Actually, it's the presence of the vowel 'y' which makes feminine nouns undergo a soft mutation - in this case, from 'd' to 'dd'.

cf.
'ei pherlau' - 'her pearls' (vs.'perlau'=pearls
'fy nghi' - 'my dog' (vs. 'ci'=dog)


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Nemesis
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 10:31 AM

Dear CarolC,

I find it extremely patronising, and yes, hopefully you do probably only speak for yourself, to state that you don't think others can't understand the kind of stress that living in the USA - which is a nation capable of nuclear weapons, dah-di-dah-di-dah, etc. What's a Cruise missile then? How many of those have you had trundling past your particular garden gate in the dark? Get real! Many, many countries (politically stable or otherwise) have nuclear capacity. Equally, there are many ways of killing people: machetes - Rwanda; Sarin Gas - Tokyo; Machine guns - Munich; JP233 cluster bombs, Semtex - Belfast, London, Brighton, Manchester, Altitude-sensitive detonators _ Lockerbie; Assault Rifles - Dunblane, Colombine High, Poison - Guyana Town Massacre; Landmines - Angola, Mozambique, etc, etc, ad nauseum. As barmy as Dubyah was touted to be before all this happens - he is not going to start pushing the button for nuclear strikes in Afghanistan or any where else for that matter.

In exasperation, Hille


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Grab
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:10 AM

Hell, the Americans just haven't lived in the UK. In the US, low-flying exercises are done in places with no/few ppl. In the UK, everywhere's taken, and most of the air exercise areas are popular holiday spots. You want to see an F111, go to Scotland, you'll see more of them than you will buzzards! And Northern England (Lake District, Peak District) and North Wales for Tornados. It's not for nothing that the UK's known as the biggest American aircraft carrier. ;-)

There was a report last year of an Airprox (near-miss) involving a paraglider. The paraglider had reported where he was going to be to the RAF on the freephone number, and was happily flying around when a couple of Tornados entered the valley he was in. The lead one saw him in time and pulled up over him, but the wingman didn't have enough space to manoever and had to go UNDER the poor guy! The resultant turbulence collapsed the paraglider, but it reinflated a couple of hundred feet lower.

UK skies are BUSY - I guess there just isn't a similar problem in the States.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:30 AM

As one who grew up as the child of a Marine, I am quite used to the sounds of aircraft, artillery, small arms fire, tanks, and helicopters. I have come to love the sound of helicopters overhead...there is something comforting about it...


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: sian, west wales
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM

I've been overtaken by a Hercules at eye-level too - on the road from Aberystwyth to Llangurig. I gave the b**ger a run for his money, though - might have even beat 'im if it wasn't for that darned horse-shoe bend at Goginan!

We've had a lot more low-flyers over Carmarthen town in the last couple of weeks. Usually they're farther up the Tywi valley, around Llandeilo. There used to be a lot of REALLY low flying, and the fly-boy bosses assured everyone that all you had to do was note down the numbers on the wings and report offenders. Sure. Like you've got time to do that as you're trying to keep you mini from rattling apart or sheep from stampeding! They shot themselves in the foot one year though. The National Urdd (young people's) Eisteddfod was held locally and the pilots thought it would be cool to use the big marquee as a reference point. Poor kids were competing against the roar of low flying jets ... and boy did the parents get hot under the collar. Pulled down some major apologies from Government ...

Oh, and regarding Dreigiau (pl.of Draig) - did you know that Welsh is the only gender-based language in which dragon is female?

Waiting for the bad jokes

sian, west wales


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:18 PM

Sian-WW, very interesting little factoid. Hmmm. But back to the thread - here BE dragons. Doesn't hurt to notice them. Fear in the presence of danger is normal and intelligent. Absence of fear is not. Keeping on with what you need/want to do in the presence of fear is courage. We (here in the US) are not imagining our danger - it's real. And I understand people who have no patience with us going Yikes at every shadow, after all, that fear was real for a lot of the world for a long time before it came stateside. But it IS new to us, however unrealistic our past may have been, it really was our past. The trick is not to pretend it doesn't scare you - or, even worse, not HAVE it scare you. The trick is courage, not fear. Dragons are ignored at your peril.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM

Hille,

I apologise if you found my words patronizing. Please understand what I was attempting to communicate was exactly the opposite of patronization.

If my country uses nuclear weapons against another country, assuming that you are not in the US, you will more than likely not feel any responsibility for what my government has done.

However, as a voter in this coutry, I will feel responsible.

I do feel that for you to tell me with the degree of certainty that you have, that you know for a fact what the president of my country will or will not do, is in itself patronizing.

If you are in the US, then I am simply at a loss for words. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, as am I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Chip2447
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 04:23 PM

Troll, did my time on your sister ship...Guadalcanal Lph-7 78-82. I hear that the Guad is joining the Intrepid Sea Air Space Museum in New York...


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 04:43 PM

And for the record, Hille, I didn't say more stress, I said a different kind of stress. And it is different. So I think whatever riteous indignation you feel as a result of reading my post is really a product of your not having read it very carefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 06:38 PM

Sian-WW
Nice to know that the dragon is Mrs Red
My ex was anything but a fire breather - she had a lawyer to do that for her.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Nemesis
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 09:44 PM

CarolC,

1. I'm not going to argue/nit pick semantics here "different/more" or whatever - I didn't use either of those words in my reply - so maybe both of us should read each other's threads more carefully.

2. I live in the UK - who are shoulder to shoulder with the USA whether we like it or not (so, responsibility weighs pretty heavily on our shoulders too - because what ever happens involves us (and most of the democratic World too). It is naive to imagine that the USA is alone in taking moral responsibility for a response to Bin Laden/Terrorism, etc. Remember approx 250-350 British people died in this attack too. 3. We have had tremendous analysis in the media of this entire situation (more so I gather than the USA - but without directly comparing newspaper for newspaper and column inches I couldn't state that with absolute authority). Because here in the UK we have been aware of it for far longer, hence why the SAS were into Afghanistan within 2 days of the attack. 4. I can tell you with a degree of certainty that President Bush will not be pushing any nuclear buttons - because a. Bush's personality, inclinations, political agenda, etc, etc has been exhaustively analysed here since the day he first declared for President. b. As a citizen of the rest of the World I make it my business to be informed about what the President of the World's most powerful nation (allegedly) is doing, what he's like and what he's up to. c. Personally, as a former M15 chief's niece, who's worked for the UN, World Bank, with friends flying JP233 cluster bombs into Saudi, relief flights into Kurdistan, having lived in an African war zone with women in the local maternity hospital ward being bayoneted by rebel troops, the market place being shot up by neighbouring country's MIG fighters, friends in civilian airplanes shot down with SAM missiles, etc, etc I feel it is beholden upon me to be informed and objective and have a vague idea about what it is all about before I open my mouth.

Cheers, Hille


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 09:53 PM

Hille, I think you know less about the US than you think you know. A lot of people don't know just how close this country came to a nuclear holocaust during the Presidency of John F. Kennedy. It is the brinksmanship and ratcheting up of tensions that I am concerned about, and that is the paradigm and the filter through which I see the recent events here in the US, as well as other parts of the world.

You opened your first message to me on this thread saying that you found my words to be extremely patronizing. Well, I find your words to be extremely patronizing as well. So I guess there isn't much to be gained from continuing this discussion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 10:09 PM

I disagree...I think you SHOULD continue to discuss this.

I think its important.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: DougR
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 10:35 PM

Right, CarolC, cut off debate with Hille.

Hille: you have to understand that many Americans, and I think Carol is one, feel very heavily the burden of President Truman's decision to end WWII by dropping the atomic bomb. I doubt that most of these Americans were even around when that event happened, but they have read, have been taught, and believe, that America is somehow guilty because of it. These Americans, I believe, view the glass as being half-empty instead of half-full. They readily accept that America is guilty of something ...they may not know what, but surely guilty of something!

I realize, Hille, that you may not agree with my POV, but I really believe at this time the best thing we can do is to unite the free world against terriorism. We cannot unite by being devisive, and I belive the attitude reflected by CarolC, and those who agree with her, is just that.

She has every right to feel as she does, I agree, but at this time we need to be positive, and we need to be supportive of our government. The Congress has put aside partisanship, why can't it's citizens?

Like it or not, our fate is in the hands of our government, and the governments of the free world, and they are not going to come to us for advice, so other than having interesting discussions on the Mudcat, our opinions mean very little anyway.

I respect CarolC, and as I said she has a right to her views, I just don't agree with them.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 10:48 PM

DougR, I appreciate your support. But your analysis doesn't describe me. However, I don't see that there is any point in trying to flog this dead horse any longer, so I'm going to attempt a graceful exit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 10:56 PM

*shrugs*


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 11:10 PM

Sorry Paul from Hull. I just don't have the stomach for getting into any serious unpleasantness right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Nemesis
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 04:48 AM

CarolC,

I REALLY am not trying into serious unpleasantness here - and I am concerned that you feel that I am getting at you. Of course it is always to difficult to see the expressions on people's faces when they write or to truly completely understand what we are trying to express -given the limited time factors to try and get it down thru the keyboard.

However, many of us do understand American politics and recent American history. I'm old enough to have lived thru the Cold War and remember the chilling horror of helplessness that everything was going to end with M.A.D., courtesy of USA and USSR machismo one-up-manship. The same ratcheting up then , etc that you are referring to now.

DougR (re. the guilt trip) I grew up with an immediate nuclear family (pardon the pun) who were apologists and had a guilt trip over every single bad or wrong thing "white" people had done from the Crusades thru to slavery thru and denying Jewish refugees in WWII.

But, then as I grew up I realised I really shouldn't be apologising (like to the African on the bus - who accused me of their "Colonial master", (who me I'm just going home with the shopping) for the past - it's what I/we do NOW that counts. Surely?

DougR, I think what you wrote is a calming well-balanced assessment (even tho' apparently it doesn't fit CArolC) - and it does go a long way to explaining why Americans feel they are alone in responsibility for this.

I truly believe, looking at the facts though, that we are not going to see a Norman Schwarzkopf "Let's bomb Rio" scenario" (and Clinton mucked it up last time in Afghanistan)- everyone, thank god, is being pretty pragmatic and establishing the facts and aware of the cost, financial and human to both "sides". Thank god also, that some food aid is even being delivered to Afghanistan.

I think that out of this truly appalling atrocity, which even Ghadaffi has condemned, the opportunity to build bridges between nations and peoples (and getting to the root causes of what motivates such acts) is far more important than being seen to take revenge - It worries me that internal pressure on Bush to do just that will precipitate and ratchet things up. But I am really impressed and reassured so far with the restraint shown far. I suppose in a black and white world that makes me a pacifist. But, it's not a black and white world, is it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 11:19 AM

Hille, I will say only this. You lead with your fist. That's not a very good way to start a conversation with me if you want it to continue. And unless you are an US citizen, or a resident of the US with the intention of becoming a citizen, you are not in any position to tell citizens of the US how we should feel about what happens here. And believe me, there is no way for you to really know what is happening here unless you are here, any more than it would be possible for me to know what it's like for you to be where you are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 12:23 PM

I cant follow this 'debate' any more, so I'm going to stop trying....sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: Nemesis
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 08:48 PM

Yeah, Paul - I agree - it's pretty pathetic and I'm ignoring this thread now.

CarolC - I understand you and probably a lot of Americans are quite stressed at the moment - welcome to the real World where we've all been stressed out for years. Please rest assured, America is NOT alone in that. And, I think you are ratcheting up this discussion into something that is not intended to be: "lead with my fist", indeed? That's quite an aggressively defensive thing to say...

Fin.

(Paul, I'll see you at nosebagcomic - where it's probably safer..)


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 09:04 PM

welcome to the real World where we've all been stressed out for years

That statement shows how profoundly ignorant you are about the US and what it's been like to live here for the last several decades.

Fin


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 10:25 AM

I had a little reality check of my own in recent history. I work in a Federal building in downtown DC. In fact, it is headquarters to a rather well know intelligence agency. Well, we were told that the whole building had to go in to have our photos taken for ID.

Well, I was puzzled, as my ID is all of about 6 months old, so it's not like the picture is outdated, and so I asked. I was told that the photos were not for a new ID tag, they were to ID our remains if it should prove necessary.

:::shudder:::


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Subject: RE: BS: Here be dragons....
From: DougR
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 06:03 PM

Jeezw, Celtic, that's pretty scary.

My Cardiologist was in D.C. when the plane hit the Pentagon. He said the streets in downtown Washington looked like something out of a movie. They were totally empty.

When I worked there, I lived in McClean, VA. Was there any difficulty getting across the bridges into Virgina and Maryland? Sorry, Creep, I know.

DougR


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 22 January 12:36 AM EST

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