American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 07:24 PM

Isn't it kind of sad, though, when the flag becomes the thing around which these kinds of dramas unfold, rather than the principles that the flag is supposed to represent?

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 08:14 PM

McGrath: I was working in Washington, D.C. at the heighth of the Viet Nam protests and was a good friend of the Deputy Attorney General at the time. He was in charge of security of the Capital. Protestors were overturning cars in the streets setting them afire, causing damage to government buildings, etc. I can assure you, based on his discussions with me after, no one in the White House or in the upper echelons of government were sitting around a cafeteria sipping coffee or lecturing to anyone.

Do you suppose when the Terriorists hit the Pentagon and the WTC, Vice President Cheney was sitting around chatting in the cafeteria.

Get real. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Paul G.
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 08:20 PM

Doug R -- you clearly have some experience with and exposure to the Washington environment during a crisis. Here's a question that's been on my mind almost constantly the last few days...Just where is the Vice President? What's he doing? While Powell, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft and even Tommy Thompson have been getting daily heavy press, we hear and see nothing of the VEEP. Is the S.O.P. or is he just hiding out in the Senate chamber?

Paul

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 08:31 PM

Hey Doug,

Here are the original names of the main Canadian political parties...

The Liberals.

The Progressive Conservatives (cute, eh?).

The New Democratic Party or NDP (socialist).

And more recently...the Bloc Quebecois (separatist) and the Reform Party (far right), recently renamed the Canadian Alliance (or something like that...trying hard not to be quite so far right as before, but no one is convinced).

What did comedians call them? The Gliberals, the Regressive Constipatives, and the Nearly Defunct Party (NDP)...HA! HA! HA!

As for the Bloc...well, how about Block-head-EK-WA...and the Canadian Reform Alliance Party, of course had the brief and unfortunate acronym CRAP (no kidding!)...which gave the press a field day, as you can imagine.

All this has nothing to do with Attacks on America, but I thought you could use a little Canadian comic relief.

By the way, the most brilliant of the above psuedonyms is definitely...the GLIBerals!!! Marvellous! It sums them up to a "T".

And they are the only ones with any hope of winning a majority government...which they have now done twice...I think...or is it 3 times...geez...it's like watching "I Love Lucy" reruns. No surprises here. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 08:58 PM

You can pick on these guys all you like.

You might be an armchair patriot if........

1. You didn't own a Flag prior to 9/11.

2. When you went into buy a flag, you had to ask the sales clerk which one was the American flag. (This is definitive. No need to read further).

3. You don't know what the 13 stripes or 50 stars are for.

4. You think the purpose of Memorial and Veterans Day is so Sears can have a blockbuster sale. And get mad when all teh parades tie up traffic.

5. You have never registered to vote.

6. You have ever lied so you wouldn't have to serve on a jury.

7. You really meant to give blood but there was a game on TV you really couldn't miss.

8. You're not sure what the Bill of Rights is but think it's probably not a good idea.

9. You think that anyone who disagrees with the president should be deported.

10. You are registered but have never bothered to vote.

11. You worry a lot about dependence of Mid East Oil while you drive to the Rally for America in your SUV. Alone. Because your spouse needed stop at Public on the way home and you didn't want to have to wait.

12. You think "My Country Right or Wrong" is silly because it's impossible for the US to be wrong.

13. You think that the solution is to nuke Somebody. Anybody. Bagdad, Kabul, Cairo, Miami.

14 You just figured out that the Star Spangled Banner was the National Anthem, not the NFL/ NCAA theme song.

15. You think radio talk show hosts are a reliable source of information about American History. Extra credit if you feel the same way about "People Magazine" and Jay Leno and David Letterman.

16. You fully support the statement: "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA"

17. You think that what we really need to do is get rid of all those foreign looking types. Even if they have lived in here for a few generations.

18. Before 9/11, you thought Afghanistan was somewhere in South America. Which you though was somewhere near Africa. Or maybe Japan.

But leave the rest of us out of your silly little diatribes. Childish name calling solves exactly nothing.

troll

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 11:17 PM

Huh?

Man, there are gonna be a whole whack of "armchair patriots" out there really ticked off at you now, troll...

Almost everyone I've ever met is somewhere on that list!

Well, no, not really, but....hell, there are plenty of people like that in Canada. They eat at Tim Hortons and "read" the Toronto Sun (it's about 99% advertising and pictures...mostly of girls in bikinis or grisly scenes of violence and destruction).

In fact, your list of possible options sounds a lot like the editorial page of the Toronto Sun. :-)

- LH

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 11:51 PM

Yeah...well... the truth hurts sometimes. But I get tired of being lumped in with those yahoos. I figured I'd lay 'em out so those who like to take potshots would have something to aim at.

troll

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:06 AM

PaulG: I have no idea where the VP is, but I would assume he is a part of the team planning future events. It hadn't occurred to me, but I really haven't seen much or read much about him recently.

DougR

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:08 AM

I don't know if they ran nationally, but Public TV had a couple of very interesting programs on tonight. One on Afghanstan, and the other (Front Line) narrated by Bill Moyers, a summation of the U. S. and it's exposure to terriorism.

DougR

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:01 AM

Something to ponder in the wee small hours of the night.

click here

troll hope this works

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: GUEST,Boris
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:28 AM

Tom Lehrer did a song in 1965 about whatever became of Hubert Humphrey? Veeps disappearing into the woodwork is as American as apple pie.

Boris

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: BlueJay
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:59 AM

Troll, you're right. This sick diatribe is exactly what I need to read in the middle of the night. Don't paint all us "liberals" with the same brush. I feel that Bush is doing a pretty good job, and has some excellent advisors at this time. I feel no need to blame America for this tragedy,and I am hopeful that a multinational coalition can at least reduce this sort of thing.

But last night, on the Politically Incorrect, some Republican dickhead attacked the much reviled Susan Sontag, and stated, people like you "should not be permitted" to express their opinions in public. Because she said in some piece that we need to look at the reasons for terrorism, and not just willy nilly bomb the hell out of them. This from someone professing to believe in individual rights.

He later retracted that statement, but his retraction rang hollow to me. He said what he meant. That's why the Conservative movement has always been pretty scary to me.

Tonight's show was pretty much the same. Bill Maher and Jesse Jackson were on the side of trying to understand why this act of terrorism occured, and a couple of conservatives stating that this is not necessary, we just need to go and get the bastards. And a comedian thrown in for laughs.

You know what? I, a known Liberal, also think we ought to go and get the bastards. But I think we need to examine the causes of terrorism as well. How long is it going to be before the millions of AIDS victims in Africa begin commiting terrorist acts against the U.S. and Europe? What about South America? Indonesia? Southeast Asia? We'd better damn well start thinking about this shit.

I think Bush's handlers have done fairly well so far. If Bush's daddy had shown even half the compassion for the Afghans after the Soviet war, that the Junior is showing today, we might not be in the position we are today. I am NOT attacking America, but that was a serious blunder, by Republicans and Democrats as well.

I don't have the answers. Obviously, we can't afford to feed everyone in the world. But as long as two thirds of the world's population is living in diseased, abject poverty and famine, these types of attacks will continue. We have made a start. Some of the drug companies who produce AIDS medications have reduced their prices to third world countries. And that was before September 11th. I applaud them. But it's just a start.

Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:48 AM

Bluejay, get down off the ceiling and re-read the piece. He's talking about the far left, not the moderate liberals. We have the exact mindset with the far right, the "Nuke 'em all. Let God sort 'em out" types.
Everyone is aware that our Govt. has made poilcy blunders over the years. It's no big secret.
As far as Maher's show, he invites people on who will give predictable responses off which he or his other guests can play.
That's really a no-brainer and I'm surprised you haven't figured it out yet.
He invites a hard lefty like Sontag and a couple of hard rightists to appear on the same show and you expect cordial debate. Hell, they'ed probably attack her if she said it's a nice day.
That's why he invited them in the first place. To stir the pot. What kind of show would he have with Sontag and Chomsky and Jackson and Sharpton. Pretty dull I would imagine.
The next time you watch "Politically Incorrect" ask yourself WHY he has those particular people on as guests.

troll

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Peg
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:19 AM

Well said, Blue Jay.

Gosh, Troll. You figured out the strategy of Bill Maher's guest rosters on Politically Incorrect. Well done.

The point is, people like Maher and Sontag (who make their livings by more or less expressing their opinions on current events) have been demonized for saying some very reasonable things...and likewise some very passionate things. But because their views do not dovetail with the "new patriotism" (we got attacked, we are hurting and angry, bomb 'em all and ask questions later) they are treated as if they're advocating boiling up babies for stew or something...

Censorship is a dangerous thing. This country has been heading towards it for some time now, and it is certainly true that ultra-political correctness is responsible for a great deal of it (like the banning of To Kill a Mockingbird in a southern school not long ago, by a board on which most of the members had not even read it!). What concerns me is that many of the moves towarsd stifling opinions such as those mentioned above have been waiting in thewings for along time...now the amplified mood and tension in this country has allowed people to believe it is a good idea to stifle opinions and dissension from the prevailing war cry...this is most un-American if you ask me.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:53 AM

Self-righteousness and self-lefteousness will never tire of demonizing one another. It's their stock in trade. Each one of them is utterly "un-American" in the eyes of the other.

Of course, most of the world is un-American too...by definition.

Take a look at the globe. Scary, scary...un-Americans in all directions, despite the fact that there are McDonalds restaurants in Moscow and Beijing now.

How the heck did that happen anyway? Where did it all go wrong after 1776? (whimsical sarcasm)

What I am suggesting is that the USA is the only society presently on Earth that subconsciously thinks it owns and has the right to run this planet. This is such a deeply held assumption (reflected constantly in American entertainment and media) that a good many Americans tend not to be consciously aware of it, like not seeing the forest for the trees, but the rest of the world is keenly aware of it...and doesn't like it one bit.

This certainly does not justify any act of terrorism, but it gives some insight into at least one reason why terrorism happens in the first place.

- LH

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM

I think that the Sullivan editorial was a bit unfair--well, actually, I think that it was stupid, distorted, and biased, but, for the sake of our discussion, I'll stand on unfair. He basically says that anyone is an extreme leftist(and, by extension, a "liberal") if they say that American foreign policy may have had something to do with the terrorist attack--basically, a stupid contention--We all know that we were attacked because of our dominant political/economic and military position in the world(if you don't believe it, ask Bin Laden)--

His whole lambast of the "liberal"/leftist position is based on an attack on ideas that are no longer the exclusive property of the liberal cause(if they ever were)-- he says:

>One of the most telling things I have seen since the Sept. 11 massacre was an early "peace movement" e-mail. It listed >>>three major demands: stop the war; stop racism; stop ethnic scapegoating.

If you look at the record, you'll see that our President, hardly a liberal, let alone a leftwing extremist, has been one of the strongest voices against ethnic scapegoating--on the issues of racism and sexism, take a look at his cabinet, you may disagree with their politics, but one cannot help but notice the diversity, and even though he has been emphatic in his use of the concept of "War on Terrorism", he has also been very, very, conscious of the folly of the "show of military force" approach, and has been clear from the beginning that this war won't be big on headlines--

If Sullivan is right, it must be very painful for the conservatives out their to see how wholeheartedly their President has embraced these "liberal" causes--

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:06 AM

Peg, you won't believe this, but I agree with you! Censorship of the unpatriotic or seemingly unpatriotic during these hyper-patriotic times (very broad but how deep? but that's a question for another post) must be spoken up against. Clamping down on freedom of expression is just making this country more like the sort of country bin Laden apparently prefers. Our liberty breeds libertines, but it also breeds heroes and hardworking ordinary Joes (and Janes). We mustn't give up our freedom to protest those who hate us because of it.

***

Shutters on storefronts, shutters on the mind
We kill ourselves to keep ourselves safe from crime
That's the gospel of bondage.
--Bruce Cockburn

***

Alex

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:31 AM

No Ted. Sullivan makes a distinction between the hard leftists and the liberals. And I believe he makes that pretty clear. His contention is that they don't want to come out against terrorism because then they can't blame America.
I have no idea if this is true or not since I don't normally hang around folks of that political persuasion but based on some columns I've read, it sounds likely.
The Liberal establishment HAS regarded such things as racism and sexism as their personal property, but they are not the only ones who feel strongly about those issues. As you said, look at President Bush.
What Sullivan was refering to is the extreme left, a small but very vocal minority who have influence far in excess of their numbers. Why? Because the Liberal establishment was reluctant to disagree for fear they would be called reactionary.
The Conservative establishment has been no better. The neoconservatives (far right to a man. Or woman)have been no better, calling for the immediate bombing of Iran and excoriating the President when he said no.
The extermes of both parties have much in common but the latest thing is that they are being repudiated by the more moderate members of their respective political groups.
Sorry if it upset you. BTW, have you read bin Ladens writings? I don't recall him saying anything about our dominant political/economic and military position in the world. He was mostly pissed about our troops in Saudi Arabir and our support of Israel. Maybe I mised something.
Peg, I spotted Mahers guest strategy the first time I ever saw the show. We used to do much the same thing when I was in TV back in the 60's. I just wasn't sure if Bluejay had. As I said, it's a no-brainer.

troll

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:54 AM

Troll - Without its dominant military/political/economic system in the world, I don't think the USA would presently have those troops in Saudia Arabia, nor have the Saudi government in their pocket. Highly doubtful. So yeah, I think you may have missed what is implicitly obvious in Bin Laden's writings.

When Britain was the dominant world power, it had troops in many far flung places too. If Bin Laden were living in the 1800's he might well be besieging Kartoum or participating in the Indian Mutiny, throwing the Sahibs and Memsahibs in the Black Hole of Calcutta...or defending the Kyber Pass against a British column.

So it goes...

- LH

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: GUEST,Ozzie
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:01 PM

Little hawk,

It MIGHT be true that some Americans unconsciously think that they own the planet and have the right to run it. However, it is also true that a lot of people elsewhere consciously think that they should own the planet and run it their way. Most of them are a lot more scary than us, so count your blessings.

Ten or so duplicate copies of this message deleted. (Do you have any idea how tedious that is?) --JoeClone, 5-Oct-01.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:42 PM

Hey Ozazie -- be a little patient with that Submit button thing!! It really does work the first time! :>)

A

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:45 PM

The trouble with getting into a thread late is that there is so much to respond to. I'll try to be brief....

I don't mean to pick on Peg but it is her comments that have me wanting to respond the most. Yes I do wave the flag, and I am proud to do so. I believe that the people who hate Americans enough to plan and execute this horrific deed see that same flag with hatred because it represents to them, the American way of life. Do I want retaliation? Yes, but not in the conventional way, go bomb the beJesus out of Afghanistan or anything like that. We are a diverse population in the US. Different religious beliefs, different ethnicities, different cultures and different regional backgrounds. The flag is one thing that all Americans have in common regardless of our differences, it's the one thing we can all share. So I display it at my home, at work and on my car. This is my belief. You, in my opinion, have pretty clearly stated that flag-waving Americans all fit very neatly into a dick waving, trash talkin, gun totin' mob. I don't agree. Is it so bad for me to be proud to be an American? I have no problem with you not waving a flag why should you care that I do?

I'm 43 and it's unlikely that my country would ask me to participate in any wartime activities. But I would if they did. And I will support in any way I can those people who support the freedoms that terrorist organizations would like to take away from me.....

I am NOT saying that your opinion on the subject is wrong. You have your right to believe what you want and I respect that. In turn, I can believe what I want....just one of those many freedoms that we both share.

Frank

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:49 PM

LH:

I think there are important differences between British Imperialism and American imperialism.

Their empire was autocratic and political, and economically oppressive for the benefit of the conquerors.

Ours -- we assert -- is commercial and ideational. We are not much into conquering nations. Our moves against Afghans are going to be selective, focused on the sub-class of those participating in the military attack against us. Mind you there are good arguments that we are reorganizing Afghanistan in the long-term interests of big oil. But I am not sure I buy that.

A

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:47 PM

LH the fact that we exist could also be a reason we are in Saudi Arabia. The truth is that the Saudis invited us there to help protect them from Saddam.
Bin Laden had offered to use his "expertise" to set up a defense force but the Saudi Govt. turned him down and requested US help instead. This rebuff put him down on us AND the Saudi Govt. You may say that this was because of our dominant military/political/economic system but It's probably because we have a better army than anything bin Laden could have cobbled together. Remember, Saddam had the sixth largest army in the world at that time.
We didn't just go barging in; they invited us and after it was over they asked us to stay. They are terrified of Saddam and rightly so. The Saudi defense force is mostly a bunch of playboy princes playing jet jockey. Bin Laden does not like the fact that we are there on a number of levels which I have enumerated. His other reason for hating us is because of our support for Israel. I suppose that this too, can be ascribed to our powerful position in the world.
But then, how do you explain the other countries who offer Israel their support?

troll

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:15 PM

Troll, He makes no actual distinctions, he doesn't even back up his claims with quotes from any of the people he lumps into his concept of the left--Typical Wall Street Journal editorial, in that it bashes academics and intellectuals and restates one of their favorite ideas, which is that the Ivory Tower crowd are fundamentally weak and anti-American--As a longtime Journal reader, I have seen this over and over again, in many different contexts, and find it to be one of the less likeable aspects of the publication--

The Journal readers themselves generally care little if anything about international politics and a lot about international finances-- they tend toward an odd and unconsidered sort of social liberalism, combined with the old Republican ideas of fiscal conservatism(which, cynically translated, means "keep government out of my business unless I need a bailout")--most have not even tried to reconcil the longstanding Wall Street need to expand international trade, with the American businessman's general tendency toward isolationism--

Not withstanding the fact that I think his editorial is generally wrongheaded--he does have an accurate sense of the fact that the Liberal and Left community are held together by a compulsion toward re-affirming what used to be called "The Party Line", no matter how absurd the context--

Don't get me started, Troll, because I may kick into my own anti-liberal rant, which I am trying to avoid, in the spirit of national unity--

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

the Saudis invited us there - the Saudi government represents nobody but itself, a family not unlike a Mafia family. About as representative as the Taliban, and pretty similar in a lot of ways - except a lot wealthier. And as I understand it the reason they have asked the Americans to stay is to protect them against the rest of the Saudi population.

And the only reason Saddam had such a big powerful army was largely because the USA been helped built it up to fight Iran. And, for the British and the French arms dealers and their political subordinates, he was a great customer.

The basis of this thing is the old belief that "my enemy's enemy is my friend", and it looks as if, beneath the rhetoric of fighting for freedom and against terrorism, that is still the underlying assumption.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:37 PM

Frank: I hope you won't expect to receive the same courteous reply from our Liberal friends to your post that you exhibit in yours. The Liberal view is never wrong;the Conservative view is never right. Simple. Liberals can write or say anything they wish, when Conservatives do so, they are right-wing extremist kooks. Simple.

Incidentially, I forgot who asked about the whereabouts of the V.P., but I just saw him appear at a press conference with the president, so he's still aound.

DougR

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:03 PM

McGrath has provided my answer.

- LH

And the British...well, they did empire-building in the manner and ethic of their time. That manner and ethic has changed since the end of WWII, official colonialism being unacceptable now...it's done through marketing now, backed up by military strength...the big wallet and the Big Stick...when it's needed. And everyone out there in the world knows it.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:07 PM

I'm afraid you're probably right Doug....To be honest I don't like the person described in the posts about flag wavers, which is why I guess is why I don't want to be associated with them.

Sometimes I think that is why the descriptions are like that, it's a lot easier to sound right when you describe the other person as an idiot......

Take Care,
Frank

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:13 PM

What's so unusual or reprehensible about Maher's approach to choosing guests? It is standard practice to choose known viewpoints just to keep things interesting. We even do it at dinner parties: If you want a lively discussion, invite people with differing viewpoints.

How long would we watch a show where everyone agreed?

As for me, I can't imagine how anyone sitting at home watching Bill Maher's show last night could have agreed with Conroy's views. I can understand her passion but I thought she was off the wall when it comes to implementing a response to terrorism. (Not 'terriorism', DougR. I keep picturing a feisty little dog. *G*)

Eb

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:50 PM

"What's so unusual or reprehensible about Maher's approach to choosing guests? "

I didn't see that show, but from what people have said it sounds like what is wrong is that it was put together by people interested primarily in making an entertaining show. And there are some times when being entertaining is not what the most important thing, and this is one of them.

When something important and frightening has happened, discussing it is important, and that should include all kind of people with all kinds of ways of seeing it and there'll be disagreements.

But when it turns into a flaming session, with people sounding off about side issues and sneering at other people's politics - that is a waste of space, and it's disrespectful to those who have died and those who are going to die before we are through. Whether on the telly or on the net.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:51 PM

"The flag is one thing that all Americans have in common regardless of our differences, it's the one thing we can all share." - how about our ideals? Our wishes for a tolerance of diversity, whether it be of religion, creed, or personal attributes?

I guess I can't understand being proud of anything that just happened, through no fault of/no thanks to anybody. I can't be proud of my race or my gender or my nationality, these are not achievements, they are all accidents of birth. I am, however, GLAD I'm American, GLAD that I live in the US, and I wouldn't trade either my race or gender for the other possibilities abounding. But I will not pledge allegience to a scrap of cloth, no matter how meaningful to others - all right, even meaningful to ME. It's a flag. It's not America. It's not even what America was meant to be, which is a nation of tolerance and diversity.On the other hand, if I'd suffered hardships elsewhere and survived to BECOME an American citizen, THEN I might be "proud" of it. It would then be an accomplishment, which my being BORN American is not. But as I said, I wouldn't trade it, and I have lived outside of the US for slightly under half my life.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:53 PM

Change the orientation and the Sullivan article could be about the radical right with similar conclusions about extremist conservatives. The cry by the neo-conservatives to bomb Bagdad and take out Saddam is as shrill as that of the "America deserved it" crowd.

The political situation is complex. It is complicated by multiple economic, military, social and moral realities. The solutions will be equally complex which, maybe, people are beginning to realize. In part thanks to the absurd positions of the extremes.

The Attack has served to highlight the extremes to both their detriment and too give the slightly left and right of center moderates more credibility and, hopefully, more political clout.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:10 PM

troll,

While I recognize that plagiarism is a form of flattery and appreciate the implied compliment, I see no reason for you to get the credit and/or take the blame* for my "You might be a Super-Patriot if..."

As background, it was written for another forum as a satirical comment to some of the conservatives there (who make most of the conservatives here look like bleeding heart liberals).

However, in the spirit of equal time for all:

You might be an Left Wing Liberal Nut if....... . 1. The only flag you owned prior to 9/11 was the UN Flag and it still is. 2. When you went into buy a flag, you were outraged that Wal-Mart wasn't carrying Taliban Flags and planb to organize a protest. 3. You don't know what the 13 stripes or 50 stars are for but you are sure they are symbolic of oppression and war-mongering. 4. You think the purpose of Memorial and Veterans Day is to glorify war. You usually wear a black armband for all the innocents unjustly murdered and fly a Peace flag. 5. You have been registered to vote since you were old enough. 6. You have never had to serve on a jury as your impassioned speech explaining why the jury system was part of the plot by white males to oppress people of color. 7. You refuse to give blood because of a boycott against the company that makes the needles.. 8. You support the Bill of Rights but are sure the penumbra of rights includes a prohibition against war-mongering conservative, big-money white males being allowed any rights at all. Other than paying for social programs. 9. You think that anyone who agrees with the president should be deported. 10. You are registered to vote but you have never voted as a symbolic protest against the oppressive, racist establishment that discriminates against the victimized poor and people of color. 11. You worry a lot about dependence of Mid East Oil while you drive to the Rally for Feminists Against War in your SUV. Alone. Because your spouse needed stop at Public on the way home and you didn't want to have to wait. 12. You think "My Country Right or Wrong" is silly because it's impossible for the US to be right.. 13. You think that the solution is to engage in meaningful dialogue with the al qaeda and to begin by offering full reparations for all past wrongs and future ones as well. 14 The Star Spangled Banner is a jingoistic, hard to sing song that glorifies war and the oppression of people of color everywhere. As a Nation we should allow each distinct ethnic or interest group there own National Anthem at all public events and include a period of silence for those to whom all anthems are offensive. 15. You think radical/liberal internet sites are a reliable source of information about American History. Extra credit if you get ALL your ideas from Noam Chomsky and approved feminists sites. 16. You fully support the statement: "What's wrong with America is male dominated capitalism " 17. You think that what we really need to do is make all white anglo-saxon males pay reparations to anyone who feels they have been victimized. Those members of minorities who don't feel they are victims are in denial and need to be counseled and helped to understand the extent of their victimization 18. You know exactly where Afghanistan is. In fact, you know the physical address of the UN aid mission to Kabul. You aren't too sure about where the local homeless shelter is but wish all those tacky homeless sorts wouldn't hang around the peace rally.

Regards

John

* Your "I was just trying to protect you" argument won't hold water.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:34 PM

I wasn't trying to protect you. I stole the thing outright and had absolutely no intention of giving you any credit whatsoever.
And if you try to make something of it, I'll order the most expensive item on the menu tonight. Remember, it's your turn to pay.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

troll

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:34 PM

(no idea where those italics came from)

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:42 PM

Skeptic-The miracle of the internet is that it is possible for people to engage in long discussions without either having, or expressing, an original thought--it's all just cut and paste--I must admit that I thought Troll's post was original--Tsk,Tsk,Tsk.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:46 PM

troll

And next week it will be my turn. Since it bothers you far more than it does me....order away. I'll return the favor.

I really don't need you to protect me. I spent 13 years as Purchasing/CSR Manager in a hospital. I have been harassed by true professionals of the art. After listening to a 5 minute screaming tirade (it was impressive. Didn't repeat himself once. And it was multi-lingual)from an opthamologist about how the surgical gloves we had for him would cause the patient to go blind (they were the same gloves he always used and in fact was the brand he demanded we carry), I don't think I have a lot to worry about from Mudcat.

Though willing to be proved wrong as I appreciate watching a true artist at work.

BTW, I think we ought to start alternating where we go for diner. The Mexican place this week and Wolfgang's next and so on. Suddenly, I'm glad its my turn.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Skeptic
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:50 PM

M Ted,

Original no, Unique, yes. There is truly only one of him and he proves that God really does play dice with the universe and has a wierd sense of humor besides.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:02 PM

You might be an armchair patriot if........

1. You didn't own a Flag prior to 9/11.

One of the flags I own was carried by me as the leader of the Idaho delegation of Viet Nam veterans at our Homecoming Parade in Washington D.C - November 1982.

2. When you went into buy a flag, you had to ask the sales clerk which one was the American flag. (This is definitive. No need to read further).

See #1

3. You don't know what the 13 stripes or 50 stars are for.

My state is one of those stars and the men in my last outfit probably came from most of those fifty - and my Best Friend was from one of the original 13 - and to further our study here - the Marine rifle company I was assigned to in July of 1966 shed the red part of that symbol. Did you know that the point element of my company died in under 30 seconds?

4. You think the purpose of Memorial and Veterans Day is so Sears can have a blockbuster sale. And get mad when all the parades tie up traffic.

And then have the gall to not consider hiring one of those the days are for because they aren't "normal."

5. You have never registered to vote.

I turned 21 the week my company died on the DMZ in Viet Nam. First thing I did when I got home was register - and vote every year. Never have voted for the person that won - until Mr. Clinton.

6. You have ever lied so you wouldn't have to serve on a jury.

I didn't have to - my disability was too high for "problems" associated with my service to MY country - I was dismissed.

7. You really meant to give blood but there was a game on TV you really couldn't miss.

Know what Gammaglobulin is? The first troops in Viet Nam got this stuff shot in out asses in the millions of units. That was before they figured out that minute amounts of it would mess you up. I can't give blood. But then maybe the blood out of my hands that occurred as I pulled the red hot chunk of steel out of Ira Jones leg at DaNang during a mortar attack would count?

8. You're not sure what the Bill of Rights is but think it's probably not a good idea.

Don't even fucking go there with me. And I consider myself a liberal.

9. You think that anyone who disagrees with the president should be deported.

This outfit was founded on disagreement. I like it.

10. You are registered but have never bothered to vote.

See #5

11. You worry a lot about dependence of Mid East Oil while you drive to the Rally for America in your SUV. Alone. Because your spouse needed stop at Public on the way home and you didn't want to have to wait.

I worry about alternative modes of transportation as I drive my Harley wherever I want to. Until things change they will stay the same.

12. You think "My Country Right or Wrong" is silly because it's impossible for the US to be wrong.

I don't think - I fucking know that when I was in the middle of a shit hole fire fight I didn't give a good God Damn about whether or not my country was right or wrong - I was too Damned worried about living for the next 30 seconds or so. And so will the world after this show gets the curtain raised.

13. You think that the solution is to nuke Somebody. Anybody. Bagdad, Kabul, Cairo, Miami.

The sloution is so complicated that I have yet to meet any one person that has it figured out yet - and it will take generations for those same solutions to have an impact/effect. Little Hawk, and others, are right about the humanitarian piece of this as are the rest about the killing that is coming.

14 You just figured out that the Star Spangled Banner was the National Anthem, not the NFL/ NCAA theme song.

And I don't give a flying shit what anyone says - the last line of the National Anthem is, "Gentlemen Start You Engines." It epitomizes what I fought for.

15. You think radio talk show hosts are a reliable source of information about American History. Extra credit if you feel the same way about "People Magazine" and Jay Leno and David Letterman.

Yeah and I am going to get to chat with Jeff Gordon - all I have to do is get on line at noon - real personal and all. Skewed at best. And Bill Mahar is a joke. He should have been left on PBS where no one noticed.

16. You fully support the statement: "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA"

I've always owned GM, except for my Ford and Harleys, so I don't know what to think about this. Maybe I don't care. Is it OK that I don't care about some things?

17. You think that what we really need to do is get rid of all those foreign looking types. Even if they have lived in here for a few generations.

My best friend mentioned above? Did I mention that he was blown to bits at a shitty little river crossing where some NVA Mortar team had their shit together and put one down the hatch of his Amtrack? And that his parents were from Latvia? And that his older brother was killed by German mortar fire in 1944 as his parents ran from the Germans?

18. Before 9/11, you thought Afghanistan was somewhere in South America. Which you though was somewhere near Africa. Or maybe Japan.

Or did I sit and cry as I watched the young Russian troops die in their own Viet Nam.

But leave the rest of us out of your silly little diatribes. Childish name calling solves exactly nothing.

No shit.

Steve Neff
US Marines
1962-1967
Viet Nam 65-66

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:09 PM

McGrath: That program is intended as entertainment. As someone already said (I sure don't want to claim authorship), controversy evidently is what makes it entertaining. I don't anyone views it as a news show.

Eb; I guess the president can't talk right, and I can't spell right. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:19 PM

Frank: I hope you won't expect to receive the same courteous reply from our Liberal friends to your post that you exhibit in yours. The Liberal view is never wrong;the Conservative view is never right. Simple. Liberals can write or say anything they wish, when Conservatives do so, they are right-wing extremist kooks. Simple.

DougR, I actually take exception to that statement. I consider myself a liberal (who votes moderate). Would you put me in the category you described above?

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:20 PM

Well said, Mrrz! Brava!

I always wondered how you could ally yourself with a flag.

Where the flag flaps, there flap I?

What I can't understand are people who seem to actively despise the USA, loudly, and yet stay here. (Not meaning anybody on this thread (really!) but thinking specifically of a person from a mailing list I'm on...).

The great thing about this country is that you can complain about it, out loud, without being carted off to the gulags or the Donskoi Monastery. And you can leave whenever you want, if only you can find someone willing to let you into THEIR country.

Alex

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Pseudolus
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:33 PM

Mrrzy, when you were in school did you ever have a situation where a school team, whether it be athletic or schoolastic, achieved something and you felt school pride? Or even a team that maybe wasn't the best, but you supported them anyway and felt school pride? How about watching the olympics and seeing someone from your country win a medal, perhaps against great odds? Being born and raised in the US is not something I chose but I'm certainly not ashamed of it, in fact I would tell someone that I am an American with pride. The folks that worked and continue to work in the WTC rescue effort are a group of people of whom I've met none. The one tie that I have with them is that they are Americans, predominantly, and they are people I am proud to be associated with even if it is in a small way, that we are Americans.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, my point earlier was that I may have a different opinion than others, but I am entitled to that opinion. I am not a war monger because I wave the flag proudly. This is just the type of American I choose to be......

Frank

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:47 PM

Doug R - somewhere back, if you unravel this this thread back far enough you said with regard to peace protesters in Washing, DC, probably around the fall of 1969:

"Protestors were overturning cars in the streets setting them afire, causing damage to government buildings, etc."

I find that kind of generalization irritating, implying that maybe some large percentage of the protesters were doing such acts. There were some 600,000 of us in Ocotber of 1969 marching peacefully down the Mall. Well, some of us were shouting chants and singing. There might have been as many as 600 who were indulging themselves in attacking private and public property, probably some proportion of them being paid provocators. But don't worry. That's old history and you're free to make of it what you want...

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:56 PM

Maybe it'd be useful to make a distinction between being proud for something and proud of it.

When your team wins you feel proud for the way they played; but only the players really have the right to feel proud of the way they played.

And the same would go for being ashamed - of your team, things done by your country, whatever.

If I was a Muslim now I'd be feeling that the terrorist had brought shame on my religion, but I wouldn't agree with anyone who suggested that I had should be feeling ashamed of being a Muslim. The same if I'd been an American at the time of My Lai, or the carpet bombing campaign of carnage.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:59 PM

I was bumped by a kind soul here that my response to Troll's parody on the recently patriotic and the generally apathetic could be construed as an attack on the poster. It isn't. I didn't take it as bad - rather I took it as a means by which to vent about some of the things that have been said here. I've been a bit on the prod lately and after reading the post I realized I needed to go back and say that I was not responding in a negative way - just that some of the things said over the past several weeks has deeply affected those of us who do have convictions - and not recent ones either.

I'm deeply patriotic to my country. I was, and still am, very proud of my service to my country. In 1969 when folks were marching in D.C. against the war I was part of the Viet Nam Veterans Against the War that provided protection for them from those who would have conspired to deny them their rights.

I fought for everyone. Not some simple sector or piece of it. For all of it. Thanks so much for PMing me - sometimes I need a wake up call that I am not being clear. It happens when I get to remembering and get cranky. Forgive me if this response hit those it wasn't intended for.

Like my friend Little Hawk said to me one day, "I was just having a bad day I guess."

Steve

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:55 PM

I kind of liked your post, Steve. It reminded me of what my father said about his first firefight with the Germans in WWII, in a field not far from Normandy. More than anything, he wished desperately that he could be anywhere but there, and he decided right then that he was going to get through it alive one way or another...whatever it took...until the fighting ended...and then never go to war again. He did that, and managed to be a pretty good soldier too in the interim, winning medals for valour.

A lot of the young Germans he was fighting against must have felt the same way he did, and a lot of them (and more than a few of my Dad's mates) didn't make it. Those who did rebuilt the postwar world, and they accomplished with peace far greater things than they had ever done in war.

War is a tragedy and a misery I wish upon no one.

- LH

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM

Steve, I was in the amphibs from 63 to 67, USS GUAM-LPH9. We were in the Carribean Ready Squadron, four ships, one Marine helo squadron and a reinforced batallion landing team.

We trained the Grunts in Helo ops, take 'em in, land 'em behind the beachhead, and bring up their gear. In the four or five months we were down there each year, we got to know the grunts prety well. We were proud of them. We helped train them. They were "our" Marines.

Then they went to Viet Nam and when they came back the next year to train the replacments, we grieved with them.

I was involved in that ratf**k in Santo Domingo. I was a BAR man on the ships landing party.

A friend of mine got greased. I got a campaign ribbon. I still can't look at the WALL.

I don't know what brought this on. I guess it was us being in at the same time.

stay loose

troll

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Amos
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:09 PM

Thanks, troll.

Thanks.

A.