American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 11:25 PM

Jesus Troll - Semper Fi my Brother - been to the wall once - enough for me - a couple of the guys in my first outfit had fought in Santo Domingo - and they said it was a ratf**k. Humpin a BAR really dates you - Cranky Old fart like me.

Little Hawk - I really want to meet you some day. I believe that you and carol have some good energy about you.

Maybe I can talk my partner into riding our bikes out to wherever it is you live one of these days.

Steve

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:19 AM

Well, Charlie, I was there, and I assume you were too. I lived in Virginia at the time, but was forwarned by a friend in the Administration that the plan of the "anti-whatever you want to call it" was to block the bridges connecting Virgina and Maryland to the District of Columbia, on a certain day so that federal employees could not report to work that day. The goal was to freeze the government.

On that particular day, the agency I worked for had appropriations hearings on Capital Hill. The Chairman of our agency, and a few key program directors, and myself were expected to testify before the Congressional committe that controlled our budget request.

The Deputy Chairman of our agency was in London at the time, but owned a home in Georgetown (the home Jackie Kennedy bought after her husband was assinated). Our Chairman asked that I spend the night in his home so that, if the protestors were successful in blocking the bridges, I would be available to go to the Hill with our delegation.

My wife drove me into Georgetown that night and we had dinner, at a local restaurant. She dropped me off at the DC's house and drove back to McClean.

The town looked like a military base. Army troops, and vehicles, outnumbered taxicabs.

The following morning I was awakened by the sound of helicopters hovering overhead. The house had a cupola on the roof that allowed a view of the bridges leading into Washington from Virginia and Maryland. I could see that Army troops were standing shoulder to shoulder on the bridges, and that traffic was moving slowly into the District of Columbia. The protesters failed to keep traffic from entering the District.

The protesters had rented Ryder and Hertz rental trucks and mounted Viet Cong flags on them. They drove the trucks through the streets of Georgetown and young protesters, armed with brooms, riding in the backs of the trucks swept broken glass into the streets intended to destroy tires of cars driving the streets.

Taxis, of course. were non-existant.

I began walking from the Deputy Chairman's home in Georgetown to our offices on 14th Street. Young people carrying Viet Cong flags were setting cars afire on "M" street and turned over on their side. Store windows were broken by thrown rocks, etc. I walked through that whole mess to our office witnessing needless destruction along the way.

Charley Nobel: I can't comment on what took place when you were involved in the protests. I didn't go to Washington until July of 1970. The 600,000 march, which frankly I wasn't aware of (that's lots of people!) was before my time.

But that's the way it was when I was there, and I'm SURE it colored my attitude toward so-called peacefull protestors forever.

DougR

Dougr

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Troll
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:41 AM

Yeah. 61 in Dec. We had M1's and the Grunts had M14's. Then they got M16's but the Navy still had M1's. Hell, we carried '03's in boot! Like I said, '63 to '67.

Skeptic tells me you have a '49 Knucklehead. Sweet. He's my kid brother. He was a corpsman.

troll

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Peg
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 12:06 PM

Pseudolus/Frank: thank you for your thoughtful comments and you have offered a perspective which at least tries to encapsulate the complexity of this issue (not an easy task).

And I am afraid I will offer what may seem a simplistic answer to your words, which is that, although the flag is a symbol of our country and therefore of the things we often say America "stands for" (such as freedom, pride, courage, individuality, etc.), the problem is that soemone displaying a flag in this time of crisis may be saying one thing, and another flag displayer may be saying another, etc. I am certainly proud to be an American. I certainly do take comfort in the fact that in some communities this tragedy has helped draw people together.

However, I don't wish to display a flag at this time, not because it is not an important symbol, etc. but because there seems to be an assumption that something specific is meant by it. Some people say it simply stands for unity, for national pride, for compassion, etc. Some say it is honoring the dead (then why not a black armband or black flag?) But my observation has been that the flag is at this moment in time, and for MANY, a symbol of a desire for retaliation, for nationalism. We are a very diverse nation. We ae also a very racist nation. The attacks upon Americans on our home turf, Americans whose skin color or mode of dress or religion or language make them somehow emblematic of our "enemy" (do we even know exactly who this is?) has served only to drive us apart, not unite us. Sad to say, the types of people engaged in this sort of profiling out of blind rage or ignorance are ALSO usually the militant flag wavers.

The majority of people displayig flags on their homes, cars or desks are not war-mongers and I know that. But without talking directly to someone and finding out where they stand it is all too easy to make assumptions. And one assumption I see being made over and over again in my community, as well as in the national media, is that waving a flag is synonymous with being in favor of indiscriminate military action. I do not know how to rectify this problem. Perhaps there is no way to do so.

Sadly, some cannot allow that this potent symbol can stand for peace as easily as for war. And because so many are waving it while speaking words of hatred and violence, I choose not to wave it as accompaniment to my prayers or words in favor of peace and justice.

I guess I am saying, thereis just too much confusion out there as to what this symbol means right now. And I remember the Gulf War and the proliferation of flags and yellow ribbons...and the jingoistic slogans.

I am glad our government is so far holding off on any dramatic military actions but I do fear that, within a few days, some major attack will occur and the terrorism will begin anew.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:03 PM

Well, Peg, you are seeing clearly into the problem not only of the flag but of symbols in general.

People intending to make parking lots out of foreign nations will see that in the symbol; people intending to balance the world's equation of violence so that terrorism is reduced or eliminated will see that in the flag.

There is no dictionary for flags or automobiles or mink coats where you can find out what they mean.

At least when ten people come up with ten ridiculous interpretations of "Consittutional rtights" they can refer to a source and find out where they are relative to it.

I too am exercising a free choice to be patriotic in the best sense I can come up with without posting any flags about it.

A

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Amos
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:11 PM

Please POST TO PART FOURTEEN which can be found over here, instead of to this thread which is now over 100 posts.

Thanks,

A.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:42 PM

Quite a lot more flags around where I live than normal right now, some English, some British. That's because there was a crucial football match, England v Greece. (Two all draw).

The only flag I've got is an Irish tricolour, and that's just for sporting events.

Subject: RE: American Attacks:Thirteen and Lucky?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

Doug - I would have been similarly disgusted by the destructive actions of those antiwar protestors you saw in DC, although I was bitterly opposed to that war.

I'm afraid there are generally assholes on both sides of any given issue, and they give the rest of the people a bad name.

My idea of protest is to speak out, to write letters and articles, and perhaps to march in the streets, but NEVER to destroy property or inflict violence on people.

There are always individuals out there who are willing and eager to be destructive, and are just looking for an excuse. I believe that is mainly because they are angry inside about their own failures in life...the failure to achieve success, happiness, whatever...and they want to take it out on someone else, some scapegoat.

Just yesterday I was in the grocery lineup, and the guy ahead of me inadvertently stepped back and I guess he caught his heel on the front of my shopping cart. He reacted with a sudden burst of anger and pushed the cart back violently. I wasn't looking his way at the time, so I didn't see his eyes, just caught the incident in my peripheral vision, so to speak. He then walked away very fast toward the bank machine, muttered something, and then came back to the checkout. Then he got in a rambling conversation with the checkout girl about how he had lost $500 dollars somehow, through some misadventure or someone's dishonesty or something. The girl was trying to be polite and calculate his grocery bill. He then got on the subject of "people who rob little old ladies" and how he WISHED he could get hold of one of them and absolutely beat the crap out of him...this appeared to be his keenest desire in life at that moment.

I was rapidly becoming aware that this guy was teetering on the edge of losing it. He was filled with pointless anger. The girl was aware of it too, and she just kept agreeing with him, and eventually got him through the checkout, and off he went.

I thought "there is a guy who may very well hurt or kill someone any time soon, and he probably doesn't even have the slightest idea why".

Maybe he was once a young protestor who thought he did know why. Maybe not.

Anyway, there are some people out there with either not much maturity or not much self-control, and when there's a demonstration some of them can get out of hand.

Steve - Well, I live in Orillia, Ontario, and Carol lives fairly near Washington DC, I believe...so you'd have to make 2 trips unless she comes up here for another visit. Thanks for the kind words.

- LH

- LH