Public Liability

Subject: Public Liability
From: Madam Gashee
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 08:01 AM

I've been asked by the shanty group that I'm involved with to organise some Public Liability Insurance cover. One of our members also plays for a local ceilidh band, who at a recent engagement were asked by the venue to have £10,000,000 Public Liability insurance in place. (no , it's not a typing mistake, £10 Mill!) The hotel later dropped it to 3-4 Mill! I understand that this is a rare occurance but prior to us taking out cover I would like to know if anyone has anyone experienced a similar situation?

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: IanC
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM

Actually, public liability insurance is quite cheap. UK shops usually have £5 million cover free with their contents insurance. We have ours along with employers and professional indemnity. If you dance in public, you normall join a national morris dancing organisation (like The Morris Ring or Open Morris). The membership fee includes free 3rd party cover. Is there some choirs association which you could belong to, 'cos if so they will probably provide cover.

Why doesn't the venue already have it in place, though? it should have by law if it ever does anything at all. I'd huess that a hotel should always have cover (in the UK, anyway).

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 02:52 PM

Public liabilty insurance should lie with the hiring body, not the hired.

The VENUE you are booked to play in must be insured. You are being employed by the 'committee' who should have arranged this insurance, you should therefore also be covered. Your equipment and instruments ought to be insured separately, by yourselves, for accidental damage.

You only need separate Public Liability IF you have equipment that could endanger the public like a very tall speaker stack that is essential to your stage set, any stage set that you use that moves or could endanger the public, or any free standing item like a dancing processional giant/ninny/beast/model that moves/stands and could endanger the public. I have no idea why the band is being asked for insurance, because for dancing it is the venues' responsibility. You cannot be sued for playing dance music, or giving instructions on how to dance, but you can be sued if your equipment damages someone. If the someone falls over and blames the slippery floor, it is the venues' responsibility. ALL venues that hold dances should be licensed for singing/dancing/public entertainment. If it isn't, you are compounding a crime by performing there. Even the hallowed Covent Garden is not exempt - And as for the Millennium Dome - it very nearly didn't open on Jan 1st, because they didn't have the public liability insurance certificate! (They got a special judge to do it on the 31st Dec.....).

The only buildings exempt from public liabilty and fire regulations are churches/places of worship, and then only if they are purpose built to be a place of worship. But most churches wouldn't want you dancing in them anyway..... miserable gits.

LTS

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: Madam Gashee
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM

Interesting stuff. As we are a singing group with only a couple of concertinas & a fiddle for 'Equipment' it would seem that a public liability insurance is not necessary. We tend to play council organised shanty & maritime festivals or staged or pub events. Thanks for the advice. Any further comments welcome.

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 06:16 PM

We set up a non-alcoholic St. Patrick's Day mini celtic festival (have for several years). The first year, we did it in an episcopalian church. No problems. The next year, the minister asked whether we carried liability insurance. I said that hadn't been a problem the last year, and we found another place to hold the event. As a presenter, I realized that insurance might come up. I am involved in a couple different non-profit folklore societies and used them (and their waiver) as an umbrella for the times we needed insurance. People are not likely to behave stupidly at something we set up (I would hope), so it depends on how paranoid the places you rent turn out. (by the way, this is in the US, if that makes a difference)

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: Gareth
Date: 02 Oct 01 - 07:08 PM

Your friendly claims clerk replies -

1/. Unfortunatley the doctrine of the deepest pocket, and sue everybody has spread from the USA to the rest of the world.

2/. If a drunken fool slips and falls they will look for compensation. The allegation that it was a loose cable, or wild dancing inspired by the band will run at least to preliminary hearings in the UK

3/. To protect thier own backs Pl Indemnity insurance is asked for.

4/. Purchased in bulk, via an association, Pl insurance is cheap. "One Off" policies are expensive, the costs of aministration means that premiums have to be loaded to cover that cost.

5/. Most of the burning costs on a Pl claim go on lawyers fees, not in compensation to the injured.

I suppose the best solution is kill the lawyers, but then that was the theme of the Peasents Revolt - see versions of the "Cutty Wren" - unfortunately the Dt version is bowdlerised.

Gareth (in Wat Tyler / John the Red Nose) mode.

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: Tone d' F
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 02:35 AM

At the moment I use Event Insurance Services for events I organise,but I am looking int a cheaper more long term public liability insurance

I should have a result today (Wednesday)

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: Madam Gashee
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 03:48 AM

Thanks everyone. I would be interested in your latest quote Tone d'F ( if you're in Britain)

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 01:05 PM

When I used to dance with a Morris team we always had to have Public Liability Insurance (no jokes ,please) and this was done through the Morris Federation, I would have thought it was standard practice for venues to ask for this as it is the liability of the band should their members cause injury or damage in any way. I would have thought an organisation such as the musicians union or EFDSS might have some sort of block policy.

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: GUEST,BB
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 02:09 PM

Members of the Musicians Union automatically have Public Liability insurance. Maybe you should think about joining - they have a good folk and roots section these days.

For event insurance, I also use Event Insurance Services through a local broker, which costs £65 for 5 day's cover for up to 1000 people, but that's only up to £1m.

Adequate for our event though.

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Oct 01 - 05:32 PM

Ah yes, but that is because the Morris dancing is a display thing..... not a participatory activity. You volunteer to join in a dance, but you don't volunteer to have morris dancers traipsing over your best foot, or re-enactors swinging bloody great broadswords in your face. That's what public liability covers. Accidental damage to members of the public who are watching. If they do not follow the safety guides (in my giants' case, it's a team of minders and usually a well marked parade route) then they are at fault, but will try and blame anyone but themselves.

LTS

Subject: RE: Public Liability
From: GUEST,ponytrax
Date: 04 Oct 01 - 02:03 AM

As I was wandering all innocent thru the MudCat

well this is fascinating. NO, I am serious!

I am a USA mudcatter. So I have a homeowner's policy that has as part a $2Mil liability, plus I have another $5Mil supplimental policy (quite cheap, I can't remember what it is but it only kicks in after the homeowner's and another really cheap ($110/year)$2Mil policy I have thru a horsemen's association) plus a tertiary policy on liability only that my sisters and I share because we share a vacation home.

Anyway, if you have a good agent and belong to associaitons, these specific-danger supplimental liability policies for shocking high sums can be quite cheap. Plus my agent pointed out that if insurance company A recieves notification that you have these supplimental policies, your primary premium can go down.

Here is where a good agent comes in handy. At least in the USA, anyway.