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BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?

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Steve Parkes 05 Oct 01 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,MC Fat 05 Oct 01 - 07:42 AM
mooman 05 Oct 01 - 08:26 AM
GUEST 05 Oct 01 - 08:29 AM
The Walrus at work 05 Oct 01 - 08:34 AM
Linda Kelly 05 Oct 01 - 10:00 AM
Fiolar 05 Oct 01 - 10:07 AM
ScottyG 05 Oct 01 - 10:08 AM
A Wandering Minstrel 05 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,ej cookie gone astray again 05 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM
Wyrd Sister 05 Oct 01 - 01:37 PM
Mrs.Duck 05 Oct 01 - 01:45 PM
Paul from Hull 05 Oct 01 - 01:56 PM
alanabit 05 Oct 01 - 02:41 PM
Paul from Hull 05 Oct 01 - 02:49 PM
Paul from Hull 05 Oct 01 - 02:54 PM
Gareth 05 Oct 01 - 03:04 PM
Joe Offer 05 Oct 01 - 03:37 PM
Eric the Viking 05 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM
Bernard 05 Oct 01 - 04:03 PM
Eric the Viking 05 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM
Jon Freeman 05 Oct 01 - 04:06 PM
Mr Red 05 Oct 01 - 04:22 PM
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Susanne (skw) 05 Oct 01 - 06:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Oct 01 - 07:29 PM
Paul from Hull 05 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM
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Gareth 05 Oct 01 - 07:55 PM
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Cobble 05 Oct 01 - 08:43 PM
AliUK 05 Oct 01 - 09:24 PM
alanabit 06 Oct 01 - 05:59 AM
Scotland the brave 06 Oct 01 - 06:31 AM
Lanfranc 06 Oct 01 - 08:33 AM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Oct 01 - 09:01 AM
banjomad (inactive) 06 Oct 01 - 10:06 AM
Gareth 06 Oct 01 - 10:22 AM
Cllr 06 Oct 01 - 01:25 PM
John MacKenzie 06 Oct 01 - 01:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 06 Oct 01 - 01:34 PM
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Subject: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:34 AM

OK--let's talk about Mrs Thatcher. This is carried over from the Politics: Tony Blair's speech thread.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:42 AM

The old git has just managed to 'handbag' herself !! Thank god she's not in charge anymore she'd have compulsory identity cards for muslims. The only positive thing is that every time she opens her trap it does the Tories harm


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: mooman
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:26 AM

I disliked Mrs "Milk Snatcher" Thatcher (referring to the discontinuation of milk at school for young children when she was Education Secretary) well before she ever became leader.

I cannot think of anything she did which I could consider good for the UK.

Perhaps the very worst thing she did was to engender a atmosphere of "selfishness" and "self-interest" amongst a very large part of the population during her tenure which has been very hard to shake off since, either by John Major's government or Tony and his cronies.

I think Tony performed fairly well in his recent speeches but, like others have said he is definitely a "control freak" and rather intolerant of any left-wing views within the Labour party. I personally regret the loss of some of these "old labour" values. There was nothing wrong with many of these principles but, unfortunately, a number of rather extreme individuals gave "old labour" a very bad name back in the 70s and 80s which allowed Mrs Thatcher somewhat of a free rein.

She is well past her "sell by" date now and I believe she would serve us all better by keeping her more ridiculous and ill-considered views to herself.

mooman


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:29 AM

the belgrano. 300 odd murdered.

ej


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:34 AM

Guest,

Hardly "murdered", it was a little situation called a "War" (and before we get the "it was sailing in the wrong direcetion" - ever heard of "keeping station") - any way, sinking the Belgrano persuaded the Argentinian Navy to keep their Carrier in port and therefore may have saved a lot more lives.

That said, I think her last statement just proves that the old bitch has finally gone ga-ga and should be shipped away to a suitable home asap.

Walrus


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:00 AM

I can't talk about that women coherently -my anger at the damage she systematically caused this country over her period of office is beyond estimation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Fiolar
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:07 AM

Thatcher and her crew as most people know only endgendered total self interest and balls to everybody else. As a former member of the nursing profession, I and many of my colleagues had to apply for our jobs on at least two occasions when so-called reorganisations tore the Health Service apart. Instead of concentrating on the job at hand, ie, care of patients, many had to worry about whether they had a job. She can now go around the world as an "honoured guest" and earn thousands in fees for speaking at dinners and such like. As for the "society" aspect, I hate to think of the number of hospitals that were closed and the occupants put into "care in the community" which meant for many, walking around the streets all day and sleeping in a doorway at night. The lucky few ended up in prison where at least they had shelter and a warm meal. As for putting her in a home why the hell should the residents of the home have to put up with her?


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: ScottyG
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:08 AM

I heard this in a pub (in Scotland) during the Thatcher occupation of 10 Downing Street.

Britain started out as a KINGdom, with KINGS ruling the lands. Then Britain succumbed to the Romans and became part of the EMPIRE, thus falling under the rule of the EMPEROR. They sent the Romans packing and once again became a KINGDOM with KINGS (and queens.) Now, though the Monarchy is preserved, the Royals do not govern, so Britain is not a KINGdom, nor and EMPIRE, it's a country. (Emphasis on the first syllable, sans the "o".)

SG


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM

I can think of several comments but, unlike the Baroness and in a spirit of Quakerly tolerance I will forbear to post them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,ej cookie gone astray again
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM

war is murder. anyway, the boat was outside the exclusion zone. even if it had been sailing towards it, would that make it ok? not to mention the fact that the whole falklands crisis was an unescessary exercise in political chicanery. honestly, would it matter if the falklands were under argenine rule? it would have been cheaper to re-house the inhabitants of the island and give them SIGNIFICANT compensation. a war never makes economic sense, and don't tell me it was for the good of the people. social welfare never figured that highly on thatcher's agenda.

ej


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:37 PM

The only political comment I ever heard my exceptionally tolerant and non-swearing mother utter was to refer to "that bloody woman"!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:45 PM

The woman who systematically dismantled Britain and sold it off to the highest bidder with her foot on the throat of any one who dared challenge her - no I have no comment!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 01:56 PM

I'm ashamed to admit that I voted for her in '79...on the basis that I thought it was about time we had a Woman P.M.

...shame we didnt get one


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:41 PM

I never did know all the facts about the Belgrano, but then again, the Foreign Office policy of the time hardly helped them to emerge. I am poorly placed to judge whether or not it was a legitimate act of war. However, the government's unseemly haste in prosecuting Clive Ponting and other botched attempts at cover ups - Spycatcher, Sarah Tidsall affair and the opening lies after the killing of IRA members in Gibraltar, did not increase my confidence in the information we got from them. At any rate, there was no reason to take much satisfaction in the sinking of an obsolete training vessel and the drowning of three hundred people - many of whom were probably teenage cadets. It's a bit like gloating over a terrorist attack on a youth club.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:49 PM

Sorry, but it was not "an obsolete training vessel", Alanabit.

& I honestly didnt see much gloating about it, other than the callous & infantile banner headline in the 'Sun'


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 02:54 PM

..sorry, I meant to also say that other than those 2 points, I agreed with just about everything in your post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:04 PM

Long may she survive and rant !!! To remind us what damage she did.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 03:37 PM

It seems to me that in the 1980's Thatcher and Reagan were the heralds of the death of liberalism. It seemed to die at the same time in many places in the world - Germany, Israel, Canada, and even to some extent in Scandanavia. Liberalism has come back to some extent since Thatcher and Reagan left us, but it's it's a new, business-oriented kind of liberalism, typified by Blair and Clinton - and I'm not entirely comfortable with it. I still call myself a Social Democrat, and I see no place in this world today where democratic socialism has a home.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Thatcher, Thatcher the milk snatcher
Taking the milk from childrens mouths
I remember the demo's well Richard-went on about 6.

Margret Thatcher, her money, her brand of politics, her philospohy of greed and self centredness and all her cronies should be given to the people who she most shat upon for them to do unto her. The poll tax, the removal and destruction of society, the dismantling of the welfare state has left us in Britain with a legacy of want and need. profits not people, money not minds and bodies. We haven't even begun to rebuild a tiny amount of what she killed off.

I hope she rots-better still I would love to have her live long enough to see a new Britain, where freedom,equality and tolerance become the norm. Where the rich have their greedy gains removed and the population have equality of opportuninty and the help they need to have a fairer life.

personally I wouldn't even waste my shit on her or her cronies!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Bernard
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:03 PM

Silly old cow will be expressing dismay that the relatives of the innocent passengers on the ill-fated aircraft haven't apologised, next... or the aircraft manufacturers... or airline pilots...

Never open your mouth until your brain is in gear!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM

I say chaps,What I really meant to say was. I don't really like her or her brand of politics. (Of course if I had gone to Eton and Winchester I would think she is STILL A C..T and F.....G bitch)

Terrrrribly sorry, but there you have it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM

The thing about Thatcher is that after her pretty well every other politician looks quite human. That's the best thing about her - and it's the worst thing as well..

I have a feeling that she's blown it now though. My big worry was that Blair would see her as some kind of a role model for making war, in the way he has in other ways at times. I don't think he will now. Gladstone is the man, it seems.

I think democratic socialism might start sneaking back in now, Joe. De-regulation of everything fuelled by big business is looking a bit sick right now. And the heroes of the hour are the very people who've been victims of cuts in funds for public services - firefighters and people like that. Tax and spend start sound quite a sensible idea now. "No such thing as society" sounds even more stupid than it did before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:06 PM

I don't know. I can't help but feel that we were in a mess, the extreme left had gone too far and someone like Thatcher was probably a good thing for a very short term but then we should have got rid of her.

Somehow fear of what another Labour government might do seemed to over-rule any realisation as to what Thatcher would do. I think it was this same fear that paved the way for Tony Blair to strip labour of some of its traditional values.

As for Thatcher herself, I never liked her and I love mooman's "well past her sell by date..."

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 04:22 PM

You know. My rose-coloured spectacles. I always called them my Maggie Thatcher glasses (both pairs are prescription lenses). I don't need them now - or do I?


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM

A comedian friend of mine had a great bit way back in the early 80's, when for a brief moment in time Canada had a scape-goat/fall-person, Kim Campbell to bear the brunt of Brian Mulroney and the Conservative Party's impending election decimation. (Mulroney resigned just before the election and Kim Campbell became the temporary prime minister and sacraficial lamb.)

His line was: "I've finally figured out WHO Kim Campbell is. She's the female version of Margaret Thatcher." (I always loved that joke.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: alanabit
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 05:54 PM

I am sure if we float the question, Paul, that some other Mudcatter will refresh our memories. From what I recall, the Belgrano was a large, but rather old ship which the Argentines purchased after it had become surplus to the US navy's requirements. It was mainly used for training recruits. (That is if my admittedly fallible memory serves me well!) Its wake may have endangered any passing canoeists, but up against practically any Royal Navy vessel which was present at the time - let alone HMS Conqueror, it represented about as much threat to our ships as a canary would to any self respecting cat. I am going to go along with Joe, McGrath and Eric, because I think they are all seeing the world from a similar standpoint to myself. I can appreciate what John Freeman is driving at, but I have to ask myself if he has bought into the newspapers reading of seventies Britain. I was a NUPE shop steward in the seventies when a Labour government full of honest triers - David Ennals, Jim Callaghan, Hattersley and Dennis Healey et al were trying to battle a cash strapped government through a hung Parliament at a time of world recession and OPEC induced inflation. They borrowed money from the IMF and the Shit of Persia. Effectively, the IMF ordered them to operate policies which may well have seemed too severe for the previous government (three day week etc....) Before Thatcher came to power, 84% of the wealth of our country was in the hands of 7% of the population. Margeret Thatcher proclaimed that this was not enough. If you think that her redistribution of wealth was a by product of her policies, just read her speeches - and those of Keith Joseph - before the election. Labour were then in the position of presiding over Conservative economic policies at a time when inflation was effectively cutting living standards of its own supporters still further. As an ancilliary worker in an NHS hospital I was on a basic wage of twenty pounds eighty pence per week. (Sorry - there's no pound sign - I'm using a German computer). Guess why I joined NUPE and took part in limited industrial action. Yes, things were bad in the seventies, but there were certain features of British life which only emerged later on. I do not recall seing large numbers of young beggars on the street. I do not recall race riots. I do not recall seeing abandoned council housing estates at the same time that large numbers of people were homeless. For me John, the only thing Thatcher proved was yes, it was possible to make things worse.


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Subject: LYR ADD: Targets
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 06:57 PM

A great opportunity to post another Harvey Andrews song:

TARGETS
(Harvey Andrews)

Chorus:
Call us equal, call us proud
Call yourself a liar
No matter what the people do
They'll set the target higher

You read it now, they tell you how the Lady is a leader
With hats and curls and strings of pearls, they say the people need her
She took the milk from my son John, locked it in her larder
Then said, The secret of success is - work a little harder

My girl she nurses sick and old, the builders of the nation
And then they pay a pauper's wage and tell her it's vocation
She'd love to ride the world around, to give the cups and prizes
But someone's got to lead the blind and see the cripple rises

We would have married long ago and we're still hoping one day
Two up two down and a little lawn and time to rest on Sunday
I wish the ones who kept us here could live like us and borrow
I'd place a pound for what it's worth they'd be gone tomorrow
We'd like a yacht, some rooms to spare, horses in the stable
We might as well believe that we could buy meat for the table

From Harvey's album 'Fantasies from a Corner Seat' (1975)


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:29 PM

1975. And she hadn't really got started by then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM

Certainly couldnt agree with you more re: Thatcher... screwing the country up as she did constitutes Treason in my book...

But the Belgrano, though it WAS an old WW2 vintage Cruiser, sold off by the US Navy, was a considerable threat to the Task Force, at sea or against our Troops when they went ashore.

Being that age, it was armoured, of course, something thats FAR too expensive to do in more recent years with Warships... an estimate at the time was that it would have taken, IIRC, 40 Exocet missiles to take it out of action (yes, the British also used Exocet, at the time)The ONLY thing that could have dealt with it was a torpedo...

It was manpower intensive, slow, noisy, & fuel-hungry, but still cheaper to keep in service than purchasing a new Warship (though the Argentine Navy had some new Warships too), & in fact in many ways irreplaceable anyhow, & with its armour, & its 6" (or 8", I cant remember, & too idle to look it up) guns,it was superior in some ways to modern Warships.

It WAS used as a Training Ship prior to the Invasion, yes, but those Cadets were, apparently, replaced by more experienced Crew, because it WAS intended to engage the Task Force, given the opportunity, & could, & would have caused ENORMOUS damage had it done so.

Its been alleged that Conqueror's Torpedo 'Officer' (probably a Petty Officer, actually) - the man that actually pressed the button that fired the Torpedoes that sank Belgrano, vomited over his console..so he wasnt without sentiment for the Ship....cant have been an easy thing to do....

Its a great pity that Thatcher secured her Political position with the deaths of so many - Argentine, British, & Gurkha.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:38 PM

....& Suzanne, thanks for posting that song....hadnt seen it before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:39 PM

Mind you, I feel uneasy about talking about here as if she was some kind of baleful evil magician, a political version of Voldemort.

She only had power because a lot of people voted for her party, and kept on voting for her party. Never by any means a majority, but more than voted for any of the others (unlike in the case of George Bush).

I remember Danny Cohn-Bendit in 1968 when asked about how he felt as a leader of the Student Rising in France said "I'm not a leader. I'm a megaphone." I think there was a real sense in which Maggie Thatcher was a megaphone, amplifying the hates and fears and prejudices of millions of people who are still around. A bit scarey to think that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 07:55 PM

Alanabit and others.

I yield to no person my detestation of that bloody woman, and all she stood for. I Beg to remind the lunatic fringe on the left how thier destruction of the British Labour Party enshured that that ***** maintained power in the 1980's.

But in the intrests of historical accuracy -

The ANS "General Belgrano" (ex USN "Phoeonix") was a light Cruiser mounting 15 x 6" Guns in manuel turrets.

Escorted by 2 British built type 42 destroyesrs armed with 1 x 4.5" Automated Guns plus 4 Exocet launchers each.

Max speed about 30 knots.

Question What is the turning circle of a light cruiser - 10 ships lengths ?

Remember - it is not what the enemy is doing know but what she can do is the problem. - " Reverse Course Helmsman" In Spanish

The order was given by Admiral Woodward to HMS/S Conqueror was shadow - and if there was any difficulty sink. And no these were not Thatchers Orders, they were the orders of the man on the spot. This was done. Sorry, no submarine could have shaddowed and been imune from detection by SONAR (ASDIC) at speed over the Burnwood bank.

Now the sceptical may wonder what threat a cruiser and two missile carrying Destroyers could have been to the Royal Navy if they had got into range.

I leave that to your imagination - unless of course you categorise the Argentinian Navy as abject " Dago" cowards.

In the early 1970's there was a war between India and Pakistan - it resulted in independance for East Pakistan, now known as Bangladesh.

The Pakistani goverment sent a troop convoy escorted by three Ex USN "Fletcher" Class Destroyers (5 x 5" Guns in single turrets). The convoy was intercepted by the INS "DELHI" (ex RNZNS "Achillies") A training ship, by then carring 4 x 6" Guns in twin turrets.

BTW If you have ever seen the film the "Battle of the River Plate" The Indian Goverment lent the INS "Dehli" to the film company to play herself as the "Achillies"

The result of this Gun line battle ?

Two "Fletcher" Class DDs sunk, One "Fletcher" retired hurt, and the Troop Convoy destroyed. Not bad for a ship built in 1936 - and classified as a training ship.

I take no pleasure in death or destruction. What a pity it is that those who give the orders tend not to be on the recieving end.

But please do not distort history by suggesting that the "Belgrano" was sunk to appease that ****** blood lust.

The job was done for naval reasons, on naval orders.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:03 PM

Paul-

thank God there are two of us who think the same way over the "Belgrano"

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM

Agreed, mate...

Not that I wish to change, or influence anyone's opinions, but if we can provide information that puts things in a different perspective...


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:23 PM

Intersting fact - Falklands

HMS "Glamorgan" 1950's built Light Cruiser took an Exocet hit in the Aircraft hanger and remained on station, as an effective unit.

HMS " Sheffield" 1980's build Destroyer received one Exocet hit - and burnt.

I suppose its what you design and build for.

The Type 42's were designed to get a troop convoy from the US of A to Europe, and after that they were expendable - like the "Liberty Ship"

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cobble
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 08:43 PM

To put you right Gareth Glamorgan was built in the sixties a county class destroyer of which two are still on the go for a South American Navy. That was my time in the RN. She carried sea slug missiles and at the time had four 4.5 inch guns.

Cobble.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: AliUK
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 09:24 PM

well. I have made my views on the bitch Thatcher known in previous threads. "Tramp the Dirt Down" by Elvis Costello ( on his Spike album) about sums up what I'm going to do when the old cow finally bites the dust. And to illustrate how she thinks just look at who she's best mates with, does the name Pinochet ring any bells. I always remember the Spitting Image sketches in which she got her political advice from her next door neighbour, an ageing and thoroughly bitter Adolf Hitler.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: alanabit
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 05:59 AM

Thank-you Paul and Gareth for your detailed information. I am going to have to find out a bit more about this, but I can't fault the way you have backed up your arguments. I am sure you will understand my distrust of practically anything the ministries announced at the time. Still, there is plenty left on the charge sheet against "that woman".


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Scotland the brave
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:31 AM

She just likes to start wars, and should lock up because she's mad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Lanfranc
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:33 AM

I remember the photo of her walking around the industrial wasteland she and her policies created. "If you require a monument, look around you"

I remember the only IRA bomb the target of which I could even marginally approve of, and my disappointment when the bitch survived.

I remember that, during the Falklands episode, I felt rather lonely in my opposition to the whole thing. I wasn't alone, but few of my friends or colleagues at the time thought as I did.

I remember how I exulted when she was voted out of office.

In my lifetime, she is the only politician for whom I can honestly say I feel something akin to hatred, and I do not hate easily.

History might put her in perspective, catalogue the damage she did, and, to a (fortunately) lesser degree, continues to do. As usual, it depends who gets to write it.

I'm with Elvis Costello on this one!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 09:01 AM

As I've always seen it, the danger which was averted by the sinking of the Belgrano was that a peace deal might have been hammered out.

The only people who benefited by the war were the Thatcher government. Without it, it is overwhelmingly likely that the next election would have seen her thrown out. And leaving aside the Belgrano, there wouldn't have been any invasion of the Falklands/Malvinas if cutbacks relating to the islands hadn't given the increasingly precarious Argentine generals a clear invitation to invade, on the assumption that the British government really wanted to get rid of this expensive outpost. I have always had a suspicion that this was really what was intended all along.

Actually it's not quite true that the only people who benefited from the war were Thatcher and co. The people of Argentina did as well, in that it meant they got rid of the generals.

That was the irony of that war - the best outcome for Britain would have been the defeat that was averted, and the best outcome for Argentina was the defeat that was achieved.

That's leaving aside the poor young men on both sides who were butchered. And the three civilian islanders killed by "friendly fire" by the British.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: banjomad (inactive)
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 10:06 AM

In the normal course of events I never ever hate anyone. With Margaret Thatcher I will make an exeption, this person sent British soldiers to their death's to further her political career. Dave, formerly the Zander


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 10:22 AM

Cobble - I stand corrected on the building date for "Glamorgan" - The original design of the County Class was designated Light Cruiser, they were reclassified as Destroyers by the Admiralty to get the costs through the Treasury. The same trick was used on the I class aircraft carriers, calling them through deck cruisers.

The point was/is any warship will normally survive and operate within the limits of damage allowed in design.

The Counties were designed to take hits, the type 42's were not designed to do so to the same extent.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:25 PM

I still think she was one of the greatest prime ministers we have had.

Cllr AKA Thatcherite revolutionary


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:29 PM

It often causes me to be amazed at the amount of hatred that the name Margaret Thatcher engenders. I am not a card carrying member of any political party, but I can't find it in my heart to hate Maggie, or anybody else as much as some of our contributors seem to. What I admire about Maggie is what I admire in anybody, i.e. her ability to be true to her beliefs, right or wrong. She would never do what the New Labour (Conservative in disguise) Party has done, and abandon all her principals and betray her friends in order to curry favour with the electorate. In case anybody's interested, I waste my vote on the Scottish Nationalist Party, and no I don't agree with all of their policies either.

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:34 PM

What I admire about Maggie is what I admire in anybody, i.e. her ability to be true to her beliefs, right or wrong.

Bin Laden for example?


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:42 PM

Jock I applaud your comments, I can admire people who are dedicated to their political beliefs even if I disagree with them. Having a mutual respect gives people a greater ability to work together particularly in the political field.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:52 PM

a desire to be true to ones beliefs is a good thing and should be recognised as such especially in the context of what jock was trying to say.

Mcgrath Comparing Thatcher to Bin Laden is not really understanding the comment or worse deliberatly mis representing it because of your fanatical hatred.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

Over here in the Colonies, I never could make much sense of the Falklands thing at all. The US has had enough of those to last the world a lifetime......I mean like after Grenada, where could you go to get any worse? The Reagan and Thatcher years only gave me enjoyment in my imagination. I was always hoping to hear that a security guard had caught Maggie, with a giant dildo strapped on, butt-fucking Reagan in the Oval Office.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 01:56 PM

Hmmm...think I'll leave this particular issue alone....


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 02:07 PM

*G* Catspaw...

As for the Falklands, I see it as us 'calling the Argies bluff' really...but then they called OUR bluff by HOLDING, & 'forcing' us to fight...

However, I think a lot of Conflicts can be seen in that way


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 02:09 PM

Spaw.

That is a visual image I _really_ didn't need.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:26 PM

I wasn't actually comparing Thatcher to Bin Laden. In fcat I was contrasting them, as a way of challenging whether that remark of Giok really stands up. If really it is appropriate to "admire in anybody" the "ability to be true to (their) beliefs, right or wrong", the logic of that has to be to admire that in Bin Laden or in Hitler.

Well, maybe it is possible to distinguish between the actual beliefs and the ability to be true to them. That's why I put a question mark in my reply.

As I said earlier, I don't go for seeing Maggie Thatcher as the person to carry the responsibility for everything that happened in her time. People elected her. She didn't come to power through an army coup like Pinochet. If there is blame - and I think there is - it rests on a lot of people, those who voted for her, yes and those who drove them to vote for her. And also those who have consistently refused to reform the voting system so that a fanatical minority could never achieve overwhelming power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:37 PM

Agreed, Mr McGrath, with just about all of that

...I feel that there are a number of extreme left-wing individuals who engendered a LOT more than 'one person - one vote' FOR the Tories.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:53 PM

God -yes.

Let the nuts on the left hang their collective heads in shame the way they helped keep that ***** in power.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM

McGrath the reason that your comparison falls down, ( and as they say comparisons are odious ) Is that none of the fanatics you cite stood for election, AND got elected, and more than once. This fact alone no matter how much one agrees with the result gives them legitimacy, or a mandate as they prefer to call it.

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:10 PM

Ooops! doesnt that bring up the knotty problem of President Ford then?

*evil, teasing grin*


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:12 PM

Mrs Thatcher was elected in 1979 thanks to the unstinting efforts of the trade unions to impose their rule over the elected Labour Government. The country was in absolute rag order at the time. In 1977 I drove Green Goddesses in Wigan as part of the the emergency fire cover for the Firemen's strike. The next year we had a squadron clearing streets because of a bin-mens strike. The winter of '78/79 was was notable for hospital porters picket lines turning back patients because the porters did not think they were ill enough. Also, there were strikes of delivery drivers who then picketed hospitals and schools to prevent heating fuel from getting through. In addition there were further public service strikes resulting in unburied bodies in Liverpool and massive heaps of rubbish in Glasgow. The Wilson/Callaghan government clique had shown themselves to be totally ineffective in dealing with these troubles, as had the Heath government a few years earlier. Mrs. Thatcher was by no means not perfect, but she was MANY times better than the incompetants who preceeded her. Also, to hear some of the invective regarding the Falklands, it would be easy to gain the impression that the whole event was set up with Galtieri simply so she could kick his forces out and get re-elected. Come on, get real!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM

Sapper, if I believed that LAST bit WAS the case, I'd be sending you a Private Message on here asking if you could knock up a 'certain piece of kit'....& I'd willingly go & position it.

Thats a bit flippant, sorry....& to save upsetting 'Councillor' (who is someone I dont dislike at all, though I despise his political affiliations, & his defence of Thatcher) I think I'll shut up on this subject now!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:45 PM

Sapper -

My politics are somewhat left of center - but, like you, it infuriates me to hear the mantra, that that ***** set up the Falklands War to gain electorial sympathy.

260 plus UK servicemen may have died to save her face ( and many more Argentinian conscripts) but that particular crime can not be layed to the cow.

Foe what it's worth I suspect that the Falklands war may well have saved the British Labour Party from complete electorial breakdown.

As stories go, this one is worth telling. At the time of the war I was at a routine meeting in East Kent, held in the Miners Institute in Aylesham (nr Dover). Business in the smokey back room had finished and I was enjoying a pint or so before cycling back to Whitstable.

One of our lunatic fringe started sounding off to say that the whole thing was a capitalist war etc. Sure enough the stupid sod was picked up by half a dozen colliers (not Thatcher sympathisers) and projected out of the bar horizontally - to general applause.

Nobody can pretend that that war was to protect democracy in the Falklands, or in Argentina - but I suspect that it was a case of the Government making all the right decisions for all the wrong reasons.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Tone d' F
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:09 PM

so you don't think that the fact that the Falklands gives the UK legal access to antartica Via Drake Passage and Paradise bay had any bearing on it's value.

mmm... Flaklands lamb only £3,220 per pound (spitting Image)


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:17 PM

I'm curious, truly: Just what is/was it that the people who voted her party into power like/liked about her? And what was her political reputation before she achieved the prominence?

I hope no one takes offense if I say that some of the invective on this thread sounds just a bit sexist? I can't fathom a 'Catter speaking of a 'bull' politician, especially in a negative sense. Is it possible that the fact that this was a woman prime minister makes it easier and more 'correct' to hate her?

Eb


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: AliUK
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:45 PM

since when was Thatcher ever a woman? And that's a direct quote from a feminist of many years that I know, and most of the feminists I know were of the same opinion. The Malvinas conflict was a result of many interests, political and economical, as has already been pointed out, like the straits of Gibralter. The Malvinas Islands are a handy staging ground for the UK's interests in the Antarctic mineral fields. The only reason the British ahave got the arse end of Spain is because the impirialist/economic policies of the era were to control the traffic in and out of the Med. Also, Thatch's government were flagging a bit at the time and they were in serious danger of getting booted out. Then the Pols in the conservative party wouldn't have been able to continue to line their pockets and those of their industrialist cronies through the sale of the public utilities and services.. 79 was the year when the British voters didn't do what they did this year, stay at home to register then non-vote. This was the end of the era of british popular political consciousness.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Tone d' F
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:24 PM

We brits don't vote people into power, we let the 40% to 60% of people that vote do it.

But not satisfied by that you can win by having the highest percentage of votes something like 51% willput you in power even though 39% of the voters were against you.

Strangely enough I don't think people are sexist about Thatcher, just hateful, resentful, spiteful and rude but not sexist

It looks as though she read Das Kapital and reversed it, selling off the assets quicker than a Yankie carpetbagger.

If the Falklands had not happened she would have been out of office but as with PM's before her, stick a pin in the patriotic nerve and you're ok for another six months

Before entering polotics she was a research scientist who's claim to fame was working out just how much air to put into ice cream to make it soft (Mr Whippy)

She was assertive and domaneering and when she wanted your opinion she would give you it. As for why the Tory's voted her as leader, I can only guess being controlled by her was cheaper than a visit to Ms Whiplash (sorry conservetives but your slease track record sucks)

From what was on offer she was the best of the lot as with Hitler and Mousolini things started out seemingly ok and all three started wars


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:30 PM

I suppose this would not be a good time to post the following extracted from the Freeserve news site.

Tories need to break with Thatcherism, says vice-chairman

A leading Tory says the party must break with Thatcherism.

Vice-chairman Gary Streeter says they need to act in the same way that Tony Blair convinced Labour to ditch Clause Four.

He says Baroness Thatcher was a fantastic Prime Minister but she has only a very small part to play in the future.

Mr Streeter told GMTV: "We are talking about 15 and 20 years ago and it's a very different world in which we live today.

"Society has changed enormously and I think if we are to attract support from a wider group of people, then we have to say, 'that was great then but that's yesterday, we leave that behind and we look forward'.

"I think you will find that Baroness Thatcher has a very small part to play in the future of our party, although she was a giant in the century that we've just enjoyed."

Mr Streeter says the party could benefit from a confrontation between Mr Duncan Smith and hardline Thatcherites.

"If we are to show people we are changing and we have changed, picking a fight with a reactionary group within the party, as Mr Blair did, is not necessarily a bad thing," he said.

Those reactionary forces include racist party members, according to Mr Streeter.

"I think we have to pick a battle with them and say that will not do for the future of this Party because we are now looking forward to a multi-racial, multi-cultural society," he said.

Let us respect thier greif in private.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ringer
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:35 AM

Just remind me which war(s) Mrs Thatcher started, Tone d'F.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Scotland the brave
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM

magaret thatcher, as I said she's just a mad old cow, who should be really locked up for her and our sakes.

And anyone who could admire that old bitch must be a tory in disguise. I just wish that the old bitch would just crawl under a stone and die. Or do like one of heroes Hitler, just put a gun to her head and shoot herself, I mean what she did to Scotland was terrible, and her pals in the Labour party, that helped her by doing nothing. They just sat back and let her run riot here in Scotland, and yet there are still people here in Scotland thinks that she's great. I really can't understand why Scots can vote for the Tories or New Labour or even the Liberals because all they care about is what happens in Westminster and not in Scotland. I don't know how they could make that old bitch (Sorry to old bitches everywhere) a barnoness. To be one you would need to be human and she's not and never will be. I agree that she stuck to her ideas and all that sort of thing, but to ruin Scotland and Wales and also start a war just so that she could remain prime minster is beyond a joke. So one final word I just wish would hurry up and die.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Penny S.
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 03:26 PM

Did anyone see the program in which she was challenged about the Belgrano by Diana Gould? I missed it, wanting to miss her, but watched a repeat later, when our family had met Mrs Gould, whom we liked. Our video failed to record it, so I couldn't rewatch to verify what I saw. Mrs Thatcher gave a very good impression of someone in the position of defending a deciasion she couldn't defend - either because it was taken by someone else, or because she had doubts about it. She was definitely uneasy, which was very surprising for her. And yet, as has been shown above, there were statements she could have made, and which she must have met in disputing with Tam Dalyell. It was very odd.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Tone d' F
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:17 PM

Bald Eagle, yeah sorry it was an undeclared war and the Argentinians did'nt remove their military escort for the scrap metal merchants and they did then invade.

I appologise, my memory of the details of 20yrs ago were iffy, and as with everything you only remember what you want to remember.

Mrs T did not start the Falklands war


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ferret
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:20 PM

Margaret Thatcher is one of the few politicians that I have to agree with the sentiment of this song about.

I'D LOVE TO SHOVE HER

By: Saw. Dr,/O'Glacain Performed by "The Irish Brigade" From the Album "Ten Years On The Run"

They have voted for another magi's bottom of the poll Well she's nothing left to do now But sine up at the dole Kicked out on here hole In the Falklands and in Ulster She went in with guns ablaze But like any dried up cow now They sent her out to graze God above be praised

Chorus: Oh I'd love to shove her I'd love to shove her once Where, off Mount Errigal I'd love to shove her love to shove her once Where, off Mount Errigal Gone, Magi Thatcher is gone Woe, Woe Gone, Magi Thatcher is gone

She was the iron lady who spoke for the British nation since they sent her to the scrape yard Her mouth has constipation And her silence's is in contrast to the politicians here Charlie Hohy and Ian Paisley Both have verbal diarrhoea Talking from there rear

Chorus: Oh I'd love to shove her I'd love to shove her once Where, off Mount Errigal I'd love to shove her love to shove her once Where, off Mount Errigal Gone, Magi Thatcher is gone Woe, Woe Gone, Magi Thatcher is gone

After thirty years of service her love life can begin She can stay at home with Dennis now and help him get it in I'm talking about the gin Well she can think of former glory now she's nothing else to do Will she often think of Brighton When she's siting on the loo What a chance we blew

Chorus: Oh I'd love to shove her I'd love to shove her once Where, off Mount Errigal I'd love to shove her love to shove her once Where, off Mount Errigal Gone, Magi Thatcher is gone Woe, Woe Gone, Magi Thatcher is gone

They're going to hang her picture In the Tory hall of fame Though there's many people that I know That would spit upon her name All the tragedy and death she coursed Lives on though years may pass Sure the Proves won't be happy Till she's six feet under grass Sentex up her ass

Chorus: Oh I'd love to shove her I'd love to shove her once Where, off Mount Errigal I'd love to shove her love to shove her once Where, off Mount Errigal Gone, Magi Thatcher is gone Woe, Woe Gone, Magi Thatcher is gone

They have voted for another She can go and kiss my ass.

------------------------------------

As for voting her in, well the 1983

Conservative 42.4% Labour 27.6% Liberal/SDP Alliance 25.4% Welsh/Scottish Nat 1.5% Others 3.1%

Under Britain's present electoral system the number of seats held by a party in Parliament dose not reflect the total number of votes polled by that party in a General Election. On the basis of the 1983 General Election results the Conservative benefited most from the system and the Liberal/SDP Alliance cam of worst. The Election results showed that the Alliance needed, on average, more than ten time's as many votes per MP as the victorious Conservative. Proportional representation (PR), a system used in other democratic countries, would (and now in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland but not England.) have produced different results. With PR, the number of MP's elected is, as far as possible, proportional to the share of the national vote each party obtains.

That's Conservative 32,776 Labour 40,463 Liberal/SDP Alliance 338,302 votes per MP

British democracy is the best that money can buy. Isn't democracy a wonderful thing.

As for Argentine light cruisers, well the Afghan SAM's were not aimed or fired at the us plans till after they had gone in but they still had to be taken out before they were able to kill U.S. lives and not after, do we wait till the Argentines sink one of the British ships before taking out a threat a 6" shell dose a lot of damage.

All the best Ferret.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:39 PM

Six of the current eight top threads are B.S.

And people wonder, "what has happened to the DT/MC


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Troll
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:58 PM

Guest:click here

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ringer
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 06:45 AM

What a very unsavoury thread this is. Not much argument, but lots of hatred and vituperation. I suggest that if you can't refer to Mrs Thatcher except in terms of "that bitch" you don't bother to post. Rather, stew in your own vile juices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 07:03 AM

BE - your comments remind me of some of those US commentators who, after September 11, were bemusedly wondering "Why do people hate us?".
Doesn't the level of vitriol and contempt in this thread tell you something about the effect the woman had on this country? Sure, there aren't many reasoned arguments as to exactly why she was such a socially divisive and malign influence on the UK, but the visceral comments from the posters should be as eloquent. Look where many of them come from - parts of Britain where the employment prospects were virtually destroyed during her tenure, in pursuit of a misguided monetarist policy adopted only by Pinochet's Chile.
I'm one of the fortunate ones - I was lucky to work for a right-wing newspaper group throughout the Tories' reign, and I never had it so good. Others didn't.
Remember Corby, Consett, the miners' strike...? Those aren't just numbers; they're people and families. Some 15 years on, some of those who were kicked onto the scrapheap are "lucky" enough to work in call centres and do other McJobs.
Others have been repeatedly processed through inadequate training schemes designed, it seems, merely to massage the unemployment figures.
Bitter? I thought the thread was a model of restraint!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:29 AM

When someones contribution to a thread contains the lines "I can't understand how anyone could--------" then there is no point putting your side of the argument 'cos as they said, they can't ( or won't ) understand.

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ringer
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:40 AM

And most of the posts in this thread, Gervase, remind me of the old saw, "Empty vessels make the most sound". The levels of "vitriol and contempt" tell me nothing except that the posters are vitriolic and contemptuous. No doubt Osama bin Laden is also full of vitriol and contempt: does that justify his arguments and actions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: red flag
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:12 PM

Bald Eagle, I take that you have never lived under her government, here in Britian, and therefore can't really comment on this subject.

Until you have lived with Thatcher as you prime minister, then as I say you really don't know what it was like for us here in Britian, mind you I'm not the only one here in britain that hates her there are millions of others who hate her too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: red flag
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM

Bald Eagle, I take that you have never lived under her government, here in Britian, and therefore can't really comment on this subject.

Until you have lived with Thatcher as your prime minister, then as I say you really don't know what it was like for us here in Britian, mind you I'm not the only one here in britain that hates her there are millions of others who hate her too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM

SF I still think Thatcher is great, just 'cos you repeat your self does'nt make your bile any more illuminating.

I'm not a tory in disguise I'm a Tory And I asure there are millions of people who thinks she was/is great.

I don't start these threads and I don't particulary expect a sympathetic audience to my views I'm still entitled to make them. I try not to hate anyone although PIRA sympathisers and BNP come pretty close I still wouldn't want them to be tortured.

Gervaise you should know better. (OT are you coming to my halloween party?) Labour political history in the seventies doesnt make pretty reading either.

Jock couldn't agree with you more.

Cllr (Still being a Tory and Proud of it)


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:44 PM

Actually - I think we should put a preservation order on Cllr - he is a very rare specimin.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 03:31 PM

As someone who did live in the UK under Maggies rule, I can honestly say that it never did me any harm. Then again I was not against her by reason of her politics or her sex, before she had even moved into No.10. I travelled a lot in Europe in those days, and found that she was greatly admired across the channel, which helped this country's image, but things like that account for nothing in the face of blind prejudice. On the basis that I think there is a certain amount of winding-up going on in this thread, and also the general tone of cultural fascism, this you may be pleased to hear is my last word on this thread.

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 04:38 PM

Whatever else she was she was more in touch with, and sympathetic to the lot of the squadie than any politician since. I believe it was genuine concern for our people in the S Atlantic the led to the sinking of the Belgrano.
Remember also that the Falklands were invaded against the will of every islander, by a truly odious, fascist regime that had disappeared thousands of its own people.
It might have been cheaper to resettle the entire population, but there were other Galtieris watching to see if appeasement was to be the British response.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 06:43 PM

Keith,

I disagree - at the end of the day the sinking of the "Belgrano" was an opperational decision by the Navy, or put it another way, can you imagine the ructions there would have been if it had leaked, and it would have leaked, that the Prime Minister had overuled the Admiral on the spot. - And a light cruiser and two exocet armed destroyers had got amoungst the troop ships ? It could have made PQ17 look like a picnic.

I concur with your description of the Junta, I also remind you of the hysterical sympathy Thatcher and others poured over Pinochot (sic) in recent times.

I also concur on the subject of appeasement. If the Patrol ship had not been on the cuts list ?

No- as I said earlier in this thread :-

1/. Don't charge/credit that woman with the "Belgrano" sinking.
and
2/. It was a case of a Government making the correct decisions for the wrong reasons.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: mooman
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:50 AM

Although I don't share Cllr's politics and have always detested MT, Cllr has a great sense of humour, makes some shrewd observations, is fully entitled to his perspective and is most welcome here as far as I'm concerned!

Mudcat has (mostly) been, and should continue to be, a broad and tolerant "church" (in the non-religious sense).

"Don't let the b*****s get you down" Cllr!

mooman


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:32 PM

I accept what you say Gareth, but she was subject to much personal criticism over the sinking, and she never tried to evade the responsibility by saying it was purely the Navy's decision, which is how any other politician might have played it.
I see PQ17 has sailed into the thread.Nice one Gareth!
Keith


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Roughyed
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 07:02 PM

I wonder what it was that made Thatcher grate so much. She certainly inspired - and still obviously does - massive hatred. Yet I have more comtempt for the politicians such as Michael Howard or Portillo who did not believe a word of the vicious nonsense they spouted. Their only concern was for their miserable careers and they did not give a damn about the damage they did. Yet somehow I hate her more and I know it's not because she was a woman. As for the remarks about the unions, they could not have damaged the fabric of the country worse that Thatchers government. There is some serious rewriting of history in this column


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 07:11 PM

Keith - agreed she did not try to evade responsability. It might have been interesting to see what would have happened if she had.

PQ17, reminds me I owe you a pint or two over that thread, I'll PM you next time im M25 North about.

Swan - I had the honour/misfortune to act as an election agent/organiser (volentary/unpaid) in Kent in those days. The mental scars are still with me.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: red flag
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 09:45 AM

Thatcher is a still a dictor, and those who think that she was great, try telling that to the millions of people that were made reduntant by her and her party. I understand that cllr has a nice wee job, I would really love it if they came up here in Scotland were we have only 1 Tory MP, which just goes to show how much the Tories are liked here in Scotland. Unlike those from the South east of England, the Tory heartland. I mean if you came up here to Scotand and said that you were proud to be a tory then I bet you wouldn't stand a chance of getting out of Scotland alive.

As for saying that Thatcher should die, I just wish she would. I meand thanks to your party, the industry here in Scotland is very low. I think that cllr should take off the rose coloured glasses and take a look at the real that Thatcher and her greedy pals created.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 12:23 PM

The fact that we have only one Tory MP in Scotland is because the Labour???? party have successfully fooled most of the people up here that their name means what it says. Goodness me they'll be calling themselves Socialists next!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: red flag
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 01:25 PM

New Labour Party (Old tory) Party. always fool the people of Scotland even when they were a socialist party.

The reason why there is only one Tory MP is because the SNP slipped up and alowed them to win, well we really felt sorry for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:50 AM

Sorry for the delay I just got back from Tunisa(Hmm I forgot to check if we have any mudcatters out there)

Any way back to the plot. Red flag What do you mean "nice wee job" I wasn't given it, I fought a bloody hard election and got voted in. I'm a full time councillor on very little money. I don't denigrate Socialist or New Labour or Liberals for donating time and energy for being involved with local government or was this a remark aimed not just at me but all those involved in local democracy. My family on my fathers side are from Scotland I have cousins (scottish) running a hotel in Inverness. and I am good friends with a former chairman of the local conservative branch in Glasgow. Red flag you really do assume far too much about my knowledge. As for rose tinted specs thats better than the thistle tainted ones you seem to be wearing.

cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John J
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:50 PM

That bloody woman....


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

John J

LOL, short and sweet ... like a roasted maggot

Also thank all of you who made kind comments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: red flag
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:09 PM

Cllr,

At Least your family all have jobs and by the looks of them bloody good ones at that including yourself, I mean am I supposed to feel sorry that you're a councilor with very little pay, it's still a job, as I say take a real look at Britian and as I said go to the poorer areas of Britain and tell them that the Tories are the best party for them. Oh by the way I'm a Scottish Nationalist, and I will never vote for a right wing party like yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: red flag
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:17 PM

P.S I wish that i could go to Tunisa on the giro that I get and bet there's quite a lot of other people would like to go as well. I proud to a Scot


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:34 PM

Children - Children !

Let those who wish to fantasize do so.

Some day Thatcher will be used to frighten you, like Monmouth Hal (Henry V) in France, or Boney in Kent.

A ledgend with bad conetations.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:39 PM

I think almost the worst thing about the Thatcher years that it legitimised an arrogant vicious personalised style in political discourse, and I think that is reflected in the way this thread has gone. Every time you time you turned on the radio there'd be some politician sneering and strutting and totally humourless.

Thank God she's no longer there, and that way of thinking has gone with her for the time being anyway. Honestly, it's bad enough, but it really is different.

But to pretend that all that was just down to Thatcher, and that there is some cathartic value in going on about her now is is missing the point.

I think it was a pretty sick time, but I see her as a symptom of the illness rather than the cause. "I hate this bloody headache" is an understandable thing to say at the time - but once you've recovered it's a rather futile sort of thing on which to waste your curses.

Incidentally, I've always thought it was remarkably prescient of Bob Dylan to write Maggie's Farm ten years before the Tories accidentally made Thatcher the leader of the party.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:08 PM

red flag I never suggested you should vote for my Party, I mean get real.

I was telling you not to pretend you knew my background.

You didn't respond to that particular point... except by saying My family has good jobs (of which you have no idea.) I don't have to validate my views by what my brothers are employed or not employed as.

Please understand that my view on TBW is my own, I don't dis-believe yours but mine is different.

cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:16 PM

dear mr Mcgrath Some people say " never trust a politician who does not have a sense of humour" Personally I think that politicians with a sense of humour are the most dangerous.

Cllr ( Oh No I've hoisted my self by my own petard) _Thats assuming most of you mudcatters credit me with a sense of humour_


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 04:05 AM

Whether you're a Nice Guy or a Nasty Guy is entirely down your you own nature. Your politics are largely dependant on your background--you vote for the party you perceive a being better for your situation. As far as being good for the Country goes, it all depends on who you think the "Country" is: Business, the workers, the government ... add your own items to the list. If we stay off politics and religion, and stick to music, we'll all get on well. But we can all benefit from vigorous debate, as long as it doesn't descend into mere personal abuse. It's always been my curse to see the other bloke's point of view; if you can't see it, make the effort!

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:19 AM

Personally I think that politicians with a sense of humour are the most dangerous.

Now that is an interesting observation by cllr. I think it might be a much more interesting topic to explore (maybe in another BS thread since this si getting rather overlong) then continuing to excoriate Thatcher, which reminds me a bit of the way Cromwell's body was dug up for formal execution after the Restoration.

Having a sense of humour, for example, makes Ann Widdicombe a much more appealing politician to people who disagree with her politics than Margaret Thatcher ever was. I suppose that might make her more dangerous in some circumstances. If Reagan and Bush junior hadn't had a sense of humour they'd probably never have been elected, and if the American voters hadn't had a sense of humour they'd never have elected them. (Well, in the case of Bush junior they didn't really, but that is another matter.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:59 AM

Rise again, Rise again, That her name not be lost to the knowledge of men, and those that loved her best and who were with her to the end will see the Margaret Hilda Thatcher Rise Again.

_snigger_

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: red flag
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 07:27 AM

Fair enough I give in!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: red flag
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 07:38 AM

Oh just one thing I bet they don't get 151 (pounds) a fornight to live on, or live in carboard boxes or in doorways.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 07:44 AM

I think that PROVES your sense of humour Councillor...& yes you therefore ARE hoist on your own petard!

*G*

I cant understand ANYBODY's admiration for 'That Woman' but I've got a lot of time for YOU, Councillor..after all, youre a Folkie..you cant be ALL bad...*G*


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 08:14 AM

Red flag Cardboard Box ... Luxury when we were kids all we had was a hole in the ground.

So what? I bet you don't live in a cardboard box either

Cllr

Ps I apologise if you do live in a card board box, if so do all your cardboard boxes come with internet connections. If that is right I will tell him to move up to Scotland 'cos my brother can't afford it, he's disabled and can't work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:36 PM

Who said that Red flag lives in a card board box, I'm disabled and can't work either so he can't go to internet cafes or the Libary to go onto the internet all thanks to Margaret Thatcher and her pals, that's what they did to the disabled.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM

Hmm. I admit to not having real all of this post, but certainly what I have read has been very critical of Margaret Thatcher. I have no idea how she and her party's policies affected Great Britain, but I think the majority in the U. S. viewed her as a strong leader, and a strong ally. I certainly do.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 02:29 PM

Oh my God - will the Doctor lend DougR the Tardis so that he can transport to the UK in May 1979 and the following 18 years.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 04:29 PM

Doug, Margaret Thatcher was a strong leader vith very strong views. The problem with her is that she gave no thought to anything other than her views and people seemed not to matter - more numbers in her game than anything else.

If you were transported back, it would be better to be transported back a few years ealier so he could judge for himself how things were going before there.

In the long term, Thatcher's policies prooved to be far more damaging to many than anything that went before her but I think it unrealistic to suggest that she was the only wrong or that things were rosy before she came to power. Going back and reading Sapper's description of his memories of the 70's, one could almost argue that the "looney left" laid the foundations for the country to want someone like Thatcher - someone strong enough to take them on...

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 04:53 PM

Uh, Gareth, please read my post again. I believe I noted that I was posting only from a position of ignorance, and was only stating a view from afar. Much afar. I don't believe I attempted to refute anyone's POV.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:40 PM

DougR - Fair comment - and I grovel for misinterpreting your thoughts. Mark you, if the Tardis was available your comments would be governed by knowlege.

John - I concur entirely with your comments about the lunatic fringe - The Second Viscount Stangate and his chums have an awful lot to answer for - and you know - it would have been so easy to give up and walk away from it.

Thank God some of us in the Party fought back.

Gareth. (in Neil Kinnock mood)


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM

My view is that the rightwing Labour government did far more to bring Thatcherism into office than the left wingers. And it was the antics of the same people, in and out of the Labour Party, with the breakaway of the SDP and all, that played a crucial part in keeping her in power. With the help of General Galtieri.

A lot of what was scorned as "lunatic left", on the part of Ken Livingstone for example, is now casually seen as boring old orthodox consensus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Roughyed
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 03:59 AM

I had the interesting experience of visiting Poland after thatcher's fall. Most Poles thought she was wonderful but hated Lech Walesa. In Britain msot people hated Thatcher by then but thought Lech Walesa was wonderful. The grass is always greener.... I remember a letter in the Guardian saying that just as people could remember what they were doing when JFK was shot, everyone could now remember what they were doing when they heard the news of Thatchers resignation - smiling.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: AliUK
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 08:56 PM

Having a sense of humour, for example, makes Ann Widdicombe a much more appealing politician to people who disagree with her politics than Margaret Thatcher ever was.

What a funny thing to say. Widdicomb is a bufoon...but a dangerous one. Thatcher is evil, but she had a good marketing department. Thats how she got in. Right place, right time, right circumstances. She deserves to die a slow and hideous death. Thank God she retired when she did. But the Bitch still keeps on trying.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:09 PM

Thatcher was, as they say, the monkey. The organ grinder was the British electorate which voted to put her in and keep her in. (And that includes the majority who hated all she stood for, but weren't able to use their heads and vote tactically to get shot of her.)

I'd describe Ann Widdecombe more as a Card than a buffoon. I wouldn't want her running the country, but I wouldn't mind her as a next door neighbour. If a Thatcher was to move in, I'd move away like a shot. (If it was Tony Blair I'd probably stay put - but if I hadn't got a six-foot fence in my garden I'd put one up.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:32 PM

McGrath, I guess it depends on what you mean be tactally. Part of my tactics used to say never allow any side in for long enough to start developing their more extreme poilicies and hope (or hoped) that the balace would maintain some form of status quo, perhaps even with some improvements...

Overall, I guess even with those sort of tactics, we are all influenced by what we believe is right. In my case I felt that John Smith was aiming for the best balance - shame he let me down and died...

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Fiolar
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 07:30 AM

AliUK: Thatcher didn't retire. She was booted out as leader of the Tories when they saw that there was a possibility that they would lose the election if she remained. Anyone watching at the time could see the thinly disguised tears of rage on the "lady's" face. As for her winning the election in 1979, I recall speaking to a strong Labour supporter the morning after and he was incandescent. I quote what he said. "Carlyle said that England was populated by 20 million fools. Well there are now 60 million." Don't know if the good Thomas ever said that, but it summed up what many of us thought at the time and boy were wwe proved right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: AliUK
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 10:36 PM

Fiolar: I know she was booted out...or was she? As you say, she decided to stand down as a consequence of her appraisal of the popular sentiment at the time. I was at the party we had after she announced her decision( there was some fetching toilet paper with her image on it in the bog. Suffice it to say that it was all used up during the festivities). But still, a tory primeminister was elected the next time round, due to the tactical voting system that was not as prevelent then as it was at the last General Election. Here in Brazil it is illeagle not to vote. If you do not vote, you lose many privilages as a citizen. I found this at first ( having dual nationality I also vote here) to be cack handed democracy, but on reflection, in a country that is rife with corruption and illiteracy, this is one sure way to get a broad band of the population out to the voting stations ( it is all computerised as well). It is not a perfect system ( I could spend hours trying to explain the Brazilian party system and the alliances that are forged to try to get into power), but it ensures that everybodys right to a vote is enforced. I thought long and hard about the system of tactical voting and I firmly believe that it is misguided, that is why Thatch the Snatch stayed in power. That is why politics in the UK is in the sorry, apathetic state it is in now. I voted in the last UK election ( I voted Labour) as I happened to be in London at the time ( another loooong story)and was saddened by the attitude of British voters. Thank God Haig did not get in on the tactical vote.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:57 AM

Having read through the above, I was amazed by some of the comments and had to ask myself, where some of the contributors were during the "Thatcher Years". Sapper gave an extremely accurate picture of what state Britain was in immediately prior to the election in 1979.

Facts are that she was right for her time and still remains Britains longest serving prime minister, so the british electorate must have thought she wasn't doing too badly. Very little, in terms of principle or practice, of what her government introduced has been reversed and many countries within Europe subsequently adopted similar policies.

The Thatcher era, internationally, saw the downfall of Soviet Russia and an end to the cold war. The United States of America had two strong and determined Presidents during this period and in Thatcher they had an ally on whom they could depend. From the Soviet perspective they saw leaders of the UK and USA who possessed determination and will power in spades.

As a leader, when required to take tough decisions, she did so without stint or compromise and in doing so exercised a great deal of integrity. You also have to remember what the alternative would have been - Neil Kinnock!! Who has subsequently moved onwards and upwards (financially) to become one of Europe's Commissioners (A body comprising the unelected/unelectable members of european political parties)who tell the EU what to do and when to do it.

Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister throughout a period of remarkable change. Judging by the current state of the UK, I do not believe she did so badly and would not be at all surprised to hear of her being described in the future as one of Great Britain's most effective Prime Ministers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:18 AM

Thank you Bill for your commentary, I couldn't agree with you more.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM

Really she did all that, So she was Britain's lonngest serving prime minister, it's funny how you never mentioned that during her reign of power, the mines, the steel works here in Scotland and Wales were closed down, she imposed an unfair tax on the people (Poll Tax), she made about 3 million people unemployed, and she started a war over the Falklands that wasn't really needed. It's strange how you missed all that out, and then she put the mentally handicaped out on the street, she stopped children getting free milk at school while she was minister in the Edward Heath Government, the woman was power mad. She never listened to the people who lives in Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM

Dear SF, contary to your views and opinions She kept winning elections and it was the people of britain who put her there.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 01:52 PM

SF I bet that Tony Blair or any other politician for that matter wishes that they had half the power that you attribute to Maggie, after all she didn't do it alone, so why put all the blame on her?

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM

The people propose and the people depose.

Very few people will regret the passing of TBW and all she stood for

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM

Gareth May be very few Socialists/Marxists/Communist/Anarcho-Syndicalists will... but really, you are making a huge generalisation Or are you saying you speak for paid up members of the conservative party? Are you including people out side the UK.? or shall we have a new thread BS Sweeping statements. Just 'cos you would like it to be like that doesn't make it so. That or you would have to qualify the statement so far to make it meaningless.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

Cllr, the conservative party gave a clear statment that they knew she had lost popularity with the majority of the public when she was replaced by John Major. These same people may have still respected Thatcher and believed it what she stood for which of course would make matters worse - a sort of double std - "We believe in you Maggie but we want to stay in power!"

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:19 PM

Sorry, Councillor, but do think she was widely despised, & still is.... & I'm not a Socialist, or a Marxist, a Communist or Anarcho-Syndicalist.

In policy terms you maybe cant really see the damage she did, but do you think its healthy for a Party Leader, particularly one in Govt. to have that much of a 'grip of fear' on her own Cabinet/Party/Govt./Nation?


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:22 PM

Jon I don't actually disagree with you and your point does not really contradict my statement. I wasn't speaking on behalf of the conservative electorate or the conservative party. Don't forget Thatcher did recieve the the majority of the votes ( I was in the House of Commons at the time) but because the amount was not high enough, by four votes, it would then go then go to a second round and that was when Maggie resigned. Certainly there was support for her within the House of Commons and it was very strong at the grass roots of the party and for that matter in the conservative electorate who were not party members. The "People" did not get the chance to depose her and with the selection of John Major the conservatives won another election.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:59 PM

Not a lot of people liked her did they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM

Thatcher was never supported by a majority of those who voted in the country. Not even in England. In Scotland and Wales only a tiny proportion of people voted for her.

The party which put her at its head tore the country apart. It betrayed all its better traditions in the search for power. It is very likely that her longterm legacy will turn out to be the destruction of that party as an effective political force, with Tony Blair's party replacing it as the new home of the conservative tradition in English politics.

Once the European nonsense is out of the way after a referendum (whichever way it goes) I just cannot see what the point would be of having two conservative parties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:34 PM

Mr McGrath, Your first paragraph seems to be aimed a the electoral system rather than at thatcher, IMHO I abhore proportional represention. (if you want to talk about that lets start another thread).

The first part of your second paragraph conveniantly ignores the state of the country at the time It was accepted by the electorate that the unions were tearing the country apart and thats why she got voted in (yes I do know I'm simplfying the situation but so are you)From a historical perspective one could say that overwhelming failure of the labour goverments to control the unions led to thatcherism.

As for the second part, your view is a valid one from your political stance, I presume you lower the same charges at the door at Kinnock, Smith and Blair during Labour's transitional period and one might equally say that the modernisation of the Labour Party to become New Labour and the reaction to this process from my party could also lead to it's eventual downfall (especially if we do not regain the centre ground.) The liberals got stuffed in the thirties 'cos (economics aside) the labour party took half it's policies and the tories took the other half effectivly marginalising them.

As for your comment about Europe being nonsense I presume you mean the political posturing and not the issues, in which case I agree with you that it's nonsense. I also agree with you that is silly to have two conservative parties which is why I am fighting to make sure that we are the only tories.

There can be only one...

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:00 PM

Sorry Cllr - I count resist this - A quote from your earlier post.

Rise again, Rise again, That her name not be lost to the knowledge of men, and those that loved her best and who were with her to the end will see the Margaret Hilda Thatcher Rise Again

Didn't you mean ---

But we talked of her all winter, some days around the clock, For she's worth a quarter million, afloat and at the dock. And with every jar that hit the bar, we swore we would remain And make the Margaret Hilda Thatcher rise again

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:31 PM

I just get fed up with people saying that most people voted for Margaret Thatcher, when it's not true. Just as I'm sure Cllr gets fed up with people saying that most people voted for Tony Blair when that's not true either.

By the European nonsense what I really mean is that one way or another its going to be settled pretty soon with a referendum, so it's a short term issue, even though it has longterm consequences. And aside from that there really doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between the two parties at this stage.

I'd put Labour's defeat in 75 down to a lot of people being fed up with a shambolic Labour government which happened in fact to be pretty right wing. The same way that in 97 a lot of people turned against shambolic Tory government. In both cases the central issue was surely a feeling that these people were a load of wallies, let's try the other lot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:44 PM

While I might disaprove of some of the terminology erm yes Altogether now "Thiiings caaan only get betteer"

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 05:03 AM

In reply to Scotland Forever commenting on what was ommitted in my text, I would like to draw attention to the fourth paragraph of my note.

My stated opinion was that she was right for her time. It is a social, economic and political fact that we live in constantly changing times. What is required from the government of any country is the leadership and integrity, upon receipt of best available advice, to analyse and anticipate what changes are foreseen and provide direction for the good of the country.

To take issue with some of SF's specifics:

1. I think from reading through the messages on this thread that it has been clearly established that Margaret Thatcher did not start the Falklands War - In fact there is, somewhere in the correspondence, an admission of that by one of her detractors.

2. World-wide, the steel and coal industries were already in trouble - not just in Scotland and Wales. At the time these industries were costing the british tax payer an absolute fortune in subsidies to produce extremely expensive steel and coal that nobody wanted. The situation was simply just not sustainable. Take a look at what has subsequently happened to the coal and steel industries within Europe - they have gone exactly the same way. The demise of these traditional heavy industries was due to world economic factors - not by any dark desire of Margaret Thatcher or the Conservative Party.

3. That she personally made three million people unemployed is a ridiculous statement. Admittedly, what she could have done would have been to increase the subsidies and government regulation to keep failing industries afloat. But this she could only have done to the greater detriment of the country and those measures would not have staved off the inevitable collapse of those industries. Faced with the facts, she did what was necessary. That is leadership and requires courage and integrity. In doing so she kept British Industry competitive, freed it from over regulation and created an industrial/economic climate that encouraged international confidence to the extent that foreign investment in Britain was greater than in any other European country.

4. The Health Service in the UK has always suffered at the hands of extremely well intentioned governments - not just the Conservative government of Margaret Thatcher. Promises of throwing billions at it are made by every party seeking to be elected, this money is usually swallowed up on additional administrative cost resulting from government interference.

5. As for stopping free milk, she certainly did, as a cost cutting measure, while acting as a junior minister in the Department of Education under Edward Heath. To reduce costs she could have cut books or teachers but she chose milk. I'm fairly certain that any subsequent data relating to the general health of the children of Great Britain will focus more on the amount of Irn-Bru and Coke consumed than in the lack of free milk.

In conclusion, I would comment to SF, making the assumption that Scotland Forever indicates leanings towards the SNP, that should the SNP ever gain the majority in the Scottish Parliament, that whatever leadership transpires, it governs with a global perspective and does not run Scotland like a parochial parish council - I say that as a Scot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:47 AM

It wasn't the people of britain that kept putting her there at number 10, most of the people of Scotland and Wales never. It was only the Tory voters of England that put her there. Here in Scotland The Labour party got the most votes and the same with Wales and also Northern Ireland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:59 AM

Her government made the rich richer and the poor poor,

Her government closed down the steel plants and the most of the mines of Britian, which made millions unemployed. Did her government raise the tax on the rich? no! Did her government help to encourage the fat cats of industry? yes. And look what has happened since then. This will be my last message you'll be gald to hear


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM

Stavanger Bill wrote:

"[..] many countries within Europe subsequently adopted similar policies."

He later wrote:

"Take a look at what has subsequently happened to the coal and steel industries within Europe - they have gone exactly the same way."

I don't suppose the 2 could be connected in any way?

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:23 PM

And now for a bit of trolling: (I admit that I'm curious about the response)

"In politics, if you want anything said, ask a man--if you want anything done, ask a woman." -Margaret Thatcher-

Ebbiewardingoffblows


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM

"Here in Scotland The Labour party got the most votes and the same with Wales and also Northern Ireland." Not in Northern Ireland, since the Labour v Tory shenanigans aren't very relevant there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 04:30 AM

Hi Jon, Simple economics caused the demise of the coal and steel industries. My two comments are connected, but only in as much that Margaret Thatchers government recognised the lunacy in trying to keep those industries going while our competitors were free to buy raw materials at the going rate. Other national governments did try to subsidise and protect their heavy industries, they failed and adopted the policies pursued by the UK government to recoup the situation, because they had seen that it could be done. For Margaret Thatchers government to have done anything different would have been equivalent to someone saying, "Why pay £10 for something when I can get it for £25".

Hi there SF, The government of the United Kingdom IS elected by the people of Great Britain - which includes the populations of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

As to some of your other points: Did her government reduce the basic rate of taxation for the entire population of Great Britain? Yes Did her government reduce regulation to encourage and promote the growth of new industries? Yes (Job creation) Did her government act in such a way as to encourage foreign investment in this country? Yes (Job creation)

And by all means let us look what has happened since then. Britains economy is one of the healthiest in Europe, our rate of inflation has been consistantly lower than that experienced during the pre-Thatcher years. The level of unemployment in the UK is less than that of most European countries. Are you trying to tell me that all this came to pass post 1997? - Get real.

From what you say, I get the impression that should the people of Scotland get the government you would like to see, they would undertake the following: Re-establish the Scottish Steel and Coal-mining industries as state owned enterprises. Pour millions into redevelopment of the Clyde ship-yards (after all they could use all that steel you are going to produce at a price per ton that no-one in their right minds would pay for. At the same time better make those ships coal fired.) Re-introduce free milk in schools. Enshrine in Scottish Law that anybody who has the temerity to actually start a business and who succeeds in developing it must, under no circumstance, be financially rewarded for it irrespective of how much his endevours benefit his community. Enforce a tax system that incorporates a super tax bracket of say 82% (The Fat Cats of industry and all those rich people will be banging on the door to be let in to pay that - SNP prospective candidate for Scotlands first President Sir Sean Connery found paying 40% too much!! and disappeared into tax exile, where from rigours of advertising Japanese whisky and playing golf, gave his opinions as to why Scotland should vote SNP.)

One thing I have found out during this correspondence - it is very easy to knock something in the light of 20 x 20 hindsight. Another thing that I have noticed is that if you go through the correspondence attached to this thread nowhere will you find any of Mrs T's detractors propose what she could have done differently - even with 20 x 20 hindsight - not surprising neither can Tony Blair and New Labour.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:52 AM

Job Creaction, you talk about, well in the case how come during her time as prime minister there was over 3 million people unemployed, the highest ever, The reason why she lowered the tax was so that as I say that rich can get richer.

How many people said that if Tony Blair got in to number ten then they would leave the country because they didn't want to pay the high rate of income tax that they should be paying in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:08 AM

The ' Job creation' that her govenment brought foward was that when you went onto these 'training schemes' what happened was that the Job Centre placed you on this thing, and then you were to train for work. However you were still unemployed because you still had to look for a job. All you get is an exrta ten pounds on top of your benifits 'Dole money' and that's all. I have been on these 'Job Creation' things since I left school and that was 2o years ago. So much for her government's 'Job Creation scheme'


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:30 AM

Hello there "Scotlandmyhomeland" - are you any relation to "Scotlandforever"??? Or do you just change the ID to repeat the same rubbish???

Are you honestly trying to tell me that: 1. Only the rich benefitted from the reduction in the basic rate of tax. 2. Government deregulation did not create a single job. 3. That foreign investment did not create a single job. 4. That there were 3 million people unemployed from the spring of 1979 until 1997, then all of a sudden they're all put back in work by Tony.

If you honestly believe that that is the case then by all means continue to delude yourself - you will not convince anyone else.

As to how many people said that they would leave the country if Tony Blair got into power - I haven't got a clue. But to hazard a guess - not many as New Labour have not deviated from the line to any great extent.

By the way "Scotlandmyhomeland"/"Scotlandforever"/"Scotlandthebrave" - everybody has to look for a job when they leave school. You complain about "her government's 'Job Creation Scheme" that you say you have been on for 20 years - paid you £10 over what you would have got otherwise and by now you must be the comprehensively trained man in the British Isles. Still it does produce an ID for your next change - how about "Scotlandthetrained".


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:13 PM

Yes I am Scotland forever, and the reson why I keep changing my ID is nothing to do with you,

And to say that I write rubbish while you write Tory propagander. As i said these Traininging schemes just don't work. I'm not the only one that says that, there are thousands of others who say the same thing as me. Have you ever been on one of these schemes? If not then how can you say that I'm writting rubbish. You are one tory peice of shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

Bulls-eye Bill!!, I think we have now found the difference between the unemployed, and the unemployable!!

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

very funny ha ha ha


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 06:30 PM

I thought it was funny

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:11 PM

I must confess, (though I think Cllr is acting as a flamer here) I thought Bill of Stavenger had hit the target well.

There were alternatives, they were called retraining and reinvestment.

There was an old toast in the South Wales Miners Federation (the Fed), part of the NUM, " To the day the last man left the last Pit on the last shift !" - Unfortunatley it came true (bar Tower).

The alternative was to provide jobs, and the education and retraining neccessary, to support these jobs. This was not done.

Personally I spent most of my time between 1990 and 1997 (after being made redundant for the first time) on temporary contracts, yes and ducking and weaving with "black income" - like sorting out VAT returns for cash or beer in hand, and signing on (Registering as unemployed for £40 odd pounds a week)

I can recall getting on a Computer training course - actually I knew Microsoft Office better than the instructor - but at least it gave me a bit of paper saying that I was trained in Microshite.

What anoys me is that the gift of the income from North Sea Gas and Oil was wasted, squandered, in providing Tax Cuts to those who did not need the money - when it should have been spent on industrial reinvestment and education.

Max Boyce summed it up :-

" I know a local magistrate
She's got a job for me,
Though it's only pressing buttons,
In a local factory
We get Coffee breaks and Coffee breaks,
And the coffee it is free,
And I know that bloody Anthracite
Has seen the last of me."

CHR

"Cos it's hard, Diew It's hard,
Harder than you will ever know,
And if ham was underground,
Would it be Ten bob a pound ?
And the Pit Head baths are a supermarket now !."

Sorry, it's late, and I've got to drive to Swansea ( Abertawe)for an 8 am start in the Morning - If ny Catter wants the full text of that song ask and I will post it as A seperate thread.

Gareth

( TRL: Diew = God, Anthracite a very hard and dusty furnace coal mined in the West of South Wales.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:01 AM

Pity also the miners of Cornwall, surely the most neglected of all counties. No new investment there when the laast mine closed. St Just compares in desolation to any pit town.
Keith.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:09 AM

Hi Gareth,

Spot on!!! Particularly your comments re the Oil and Gas Industry. From the ID you can probably see that I work over in Norway, where they handled their oil and gas revenue in a much better way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:18 AM

Maybe you thaought it was funny was becasue you're a tory The reason I might be the one of the most trained person in Britian is because of not only myself but thousands of others have also been on training schemes.

Now to get a job you've either have to WORKED with that company or had exprenice in the job it's self (Not trained) or have a driving licsense.

Of which I have neither, now a days bosses aren't intsrested that you have got training schemes ie scotvecs or city and guilds coming out of your ears but can you do the job. What happens is that you go on a scheme for a year and after that year all you get is a certific and told that you have to sign on at the job centre for six months. While on the training scheme you're still unemployed because you are told to be looking out for a job.

And the only jobs that are out there as I have said ones that the employers are looking for are the ones with job exprinces or if you have a driving lisense. I hope that this explains it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:47 AM

I see Bill that you work in Norway to deal with the oil and Gas industry, why is that I thought you said that under Margaret Thatcher's government that the were jobs a plenty here in Scotland and so why did you not stay in Scotland with the oil industry instead of going to Norway where I believe that it's more expencive over there than it it's over here. And you still haven't answer the question about your exprences on the training schemes . And I'm the one who is talking rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:51 AM

I see Bill that you work in Norway to deal with the oil and Gas industry, why is that I thought you said that under Margaret Thatcher's government that the were jobs a plenty here in Scotland and so why did you not stay in Scotland with the oil industry instead of going to Norway where I believe that it's more expencive over there than it it's over here. And you still haven't answer the question about your exprences on the training schemes . And I'm the one who is talking rubbish. And if the Tories were so popular as the way that you put it over why in Scotland and Wales in the 1997 election was there no Scottish or Welsh tories sent to Westminster and in the last election only one Tory MP from Scotland was went to Wesminster. If they are so popular as you say they are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM

I note that I'm being called a flamer (more like troll if you want to be pedantic) and yet all I was doing was agreeing with a previous post. If my post provokes a response its more likley to be that as a tory my very existence is an affront to certain people. Thats not my problem, I don't have a problem with people having differing views to my own. I do have a problem with people using such viturprative language that has been used in this thread. It gets in the way of sensible discussion and brings it down to personalities in a very antagonistic way. On the folk scene many people have views slightly more left wing than my own 8-) but I have had many relaxed political discussions in folk clubs and at festivals. Respecting other people views is not the same as agreeing with them as some of the more tolerent leftwing posters on mudcat have shown.

Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:20 AM

Hello "Scotland the trained",

Quote: I see Bill that you work in Norway to deal with the oil and Gas industry, why is that I thought you said that under Margaret Thatcher's government that the were jobs a plenty here in Scotland Question: Having gone through the text of my submissions to this thread please enlighten me as to where and when I make any reference to their being "jobs aplenty here in Scotland".

Quote: "...so why did you not stay in Scotland with the oil industry instead of going to Norway where I believe that it's more expencive over there than it it's over here."

Comment: You have made an assumption based purely on the fact that I am currently working in Norway. In actual fact for most of the time between 1979 and 1996 I did work in the UK mainly in Scotland. Agreed it is more expensive but the people generally are open minded, tolerant and friendly.

Quote: "And you still haven't answer the question about your exprences on the training schemes"

Answer: I work basically as a consultant, contracted in to do work within my specialisation on a project by project basis, I have been involved in this industry since 1972. Throughout that period I have undertaken many training courses - all self financed as neither the government or the companies would foot the bill. Some of these courses were compulsory arising from changes to regulations governing safety legislation, others were courses covering topics and skills that I could see would be useful to me. During the period I mentioned above (1979 to 1996) I only had to sign on once - and was told that I was entitled to nothing - and that was what I got.

Quote: "And I'm the one who is talking rubbish"

Opinion: Based on what you have written IMO yes.

Quote: "And if the Tories were so popular as the way that you put it over why in Scotland and Wales in the 1997 election was there no Scottish or Welsh tories sent to Westminster"

Answer: I would have thought that the answer to this was fairly obvious - because an insufficient number of people voted for conservative/unionist candidates standing for election in Scottish and Welsh seats.

Quote: "...and in the last election only one Tory MP from Scotland was went to Wesminster".

Answer: Obviously because sufficient people voted to return that candidate as their Member of Parliament. But if they got none in 1997 and one in the last election does that mean they've turned the corner - how many at the next election??

Quote: "If they are so popular as you say they are"

Question: Again I have been through the text of my submissions to this thread - where do I say that they were popular? What I did say was that between the years 1979 and 1997 the people of the United Kingdom elected successive Conservative Governments.

I hope that the above answers your questions.

Additionally for your information I would like to make the following comment:

Quote: "You are one tory peice of shit."

Comment: To my certain knowledge I have never been active on behalf of any political party in my life. If you consider the above quote as a reasonable means of taking part in a discussion - I pity you


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:08 AM

I agree with Bill, well said. Cllr


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:29 AM

I was just so angry at saying that I was talking rubbish,

And you still have told me about Training for work schemes like companies called Best or Gallowy, and all other GOVERNMENT training schemes that are called Training for work or new deal.

what about them. And I'm sorry that I called you one Tory peice of Shit. As for the next election I think that The new labour party will get in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:40 AM

You said that the People of Brtian voted for the Tories from 1979-1997

Most of the people of Scotland and Wales didn't niether did the people of the North of England.

These people voted for a Labour government and not a tory one. I don't like being called a liar, I might get my facts worng here and there but to say that I was talking rubbish when you don't even know me. That's why I said all those things about you. You make me out to be a loony when I'm not I found out that the things that I was writting about was rubbish. As I have said I'm sorry for calling you that. I just don't being called a lair that's all. I mean you don't even know what I have exprenced with Government trainging schemes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:49 AM

What I ment to say there was I've worked on GOVERNMENT were as yourself haven't so how can you say that I'm talking rubbish when you have never worked on or been a part of a government funded training scheme were al you get is an extra ten pounds on top of your dole money and that's it. You've never done as far as I can see. And then you say that I talking rubbish. I'm sorry for calling one tory piece of shit. However until you have had exprence of a training for work scheme or a new deal then how can say that person is talking rubbish. I hope that clears it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM

Hi Scotland the trained,

All cleared up, apology accepted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:16 PM

Thank you Bill,

Oh by the way there's one thing that I want to know do you know a man called Bill Black, he worked in Stavnger during the 80's with a company called MAPEL he was with the oil and gas Industry out there. If you do then can you tell him that a man called Jim Hamilton was asking for him.

Let's just agree to disagree eh! Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:02 PM

Well sorted lads.

Jock


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:47 PM

I know it's was getting a wee bit out of hand mostly on my part.

Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Stavanger Bill
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:24 AM

Hi Tom,

The name doesn't ring any bells, but I'll ask around.

Bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:40 AM

Now, now, guys and Gals---the lady showed a fine environmental example by being photographed sticking yon pointy thing through [perfectly biodegradable] scraps of paper in Hyde Park. My general comment?----ugh!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Margaret Thatcher-any comments?
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:00 AM

In countries where we have an opportunity to self-govern, there seem to be a couple of problems: One is that too many voters become disillusioned and stop voting, and the second is a touchy subject...in any country where a large number of voters are possibly not intelligent enough to make a reasonable choice, should we not find a better way to select leaders? The above prolonged rant against Margaret Thatcher could be matched with similar diatribes against a number of elected officials throughout history and from a variety of countries. In the U. S. it's worth remembering that at the height of the war in Vietnam and subsequent illegal activity by Richard Nixon, he was re-elected. I don't have the answers, but if we are to begin choosing the best to represent us, it seems that something has to change.


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Mudcat time: 23 February 10:26 PM EST

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