UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:18 PM

As the Law currently stands, whether an activity is a "public performance" is a question of fact in each case which can only be determined by the courts.

This at the moment appears to mean that if a council employee states an activity to be a public entertainment, it is one. The people involved in that activity, or the licensee, have to fight this in Court.

You are guilty until you can (afford or risk) prove you are innocent..........

Or does it in fact mean the opposite?

Is the onus on the authority to prove it is entertainment?

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 02:42 PM

That may be my fault McGrath as I explained my own situation, the problem of playing at sesions in pubs
Though if you explain the wider situation it may be that a different minister altogether is responsible
I just feel like I am banging my head against a very dense brick wall. At the sessions I have been to, the landlord does not object to our playing, there are no noise or safety problems and I don't see as we could be classed as entertainment as we don't attract an audience - any people already in the pub usually talk louder than our playing anyway. The real problem is that I can't take my MP along to show him what a session is, as I would probably be barred by the landlord and hated by the other musicians if the local council dug their heels in like Weymouth have done
Common Sense seems to have no place in making legislation or applying it

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 02:24 PM

Well one thing that is clear is that he's got himself focussed in on the business of licensed premises, and completely ignores the fact that the law as it stands appears to see it as illegal for even one person to sing a song or play an instrument in a coffee bar, library, bookshop or village green etc, unless a PEL has been obtained.

And what does he propose to do about this blatant intrusion on our fundamental human rights, to bring us into line with normal civilised practice in other countries in the European Union, where this kind of restriction would rightly be recognised as unconstitutional? (Or Scotland, which I would imagine he regards as part of "this country").

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 02:07 PM

This is a reply to my MP from the Minister for Tourism, Film and Broadcasting at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, Dr Kim Howells MP

.......I am replying as the Minister responsible for licensing law.

I appreciate the points made by Mr Shaw about persons playing music for their own benefit in licensed premises. It might be helpful if I explain the current law and the measures we are proposing to reform the licensing system.

Public entertainment licensing law is contained in the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982, which applies to areas outside of London, and in the London Government Act 1963. These Acts provide that any public performance of music, dancing or similar entertainment cannot take place in any premises except in accordance with the terms of a public entertainment licence granted by the local council. However, under Section 182 of the Licensing Act 1964, a public entertainment licence is not required if music or dancing is performed by less than three performers on licensed premises, i.e. the "two in a bar rule". As the Law currently stands, whether an activity is a "public performance" is a question of fact in each case which can only be determined by the courts.

The Government believes that the "two in a bar rule" is out of date and we are proposing to repeal this as part of the licensing reform package announced in the White Paper "Time for Reform", which was published in April last year. This can be read or downloaded from the DCMS website (www.culture.gov.uk).

Under the proposed new Licensing system, all venues which serve or sell alcohol or provide entertainment to the public would be required to obtain a premises licence. Operators would be required to submit an operating plan showing all activities to be provided at the venue, including any type of entertainment. The local council, acting as the licensing authority, would then decide the conditions to be imposed on those activities and on the premises itself, including the opening hours. However, the legislation will ensure that local authorities make their decisions based on the need to protect public safety and to prevent disorder and noise nuisance. These factors are the sole purpose of a licensing system and it is sensible that all activities on the premises, including any form of entertainment, should be included in this process.

The Council would be required to make their decisions after considering any views submitted by the police, local residents and other interested bodies. This procedure would allow musicians and other performers to submit comments to the authority in support of any plans by venues to provide Live entertainment. As well as rules in legislation, we will also issue guidance to local authorities to ensure that licence applications are handled in a fair and consistent manner, and that the fees charged are reasonable. The package of reforms will introduce a flexible and simplified Licensing system which will reduce the existing burden on operators of having to apply for separate liquor and public entertainment Licences. It will allow operators to put forward plans for entertainment activities which the local councils would be obliged to consider favourably and only impose conditions based on disorder, safety or nuisance factors

. Although room could not be found in the congested legislative programme for the 2001/2002 session, we intend to bring forward legislation on licensing reform as soon as Parliamentary time is available.

Signed Dr Kim Howells MP

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 01:21 PM

Maybe you'd like to post Kim Howells reply and we could try to work out where his problem is in understanding all this.

At this time, as Gareth said, we're up against the problem that this isn't going to be anybody's top issue of the day. What we need is someone getting banged up for singing Christmas Carols, and the trouble is they aren't going to do that. Repressive tolerance.

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Gareth
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:25 PM

Roger - I can asure you that our MP see's the problem.

The main problem is priorities.

Gareth

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:18 PM

I am still trying to work out how to respond to a reply from Dr Kim Howells on the subject of PELs. The reply shows that the Minister doesn't see the problem, and if MPs don't see the problem how can they do anything about it?

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:47 PM

Sorry - forgot to add - Our thanks to Wayne David MP for allowing me to blag part of his webspace.

Gareth

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:40 PM

Thanks Gareth, that's handy.

One thing I noted that sounds a bt questionable, a quote from the Council spokeman about Mudcatters who wrote in to Weymouth:"We have had a number of emails to us from people in America. And I have to say that when I explained to them just how active we are in supporting the arts in Weymouth, when I tell them about the folk festival we are having and the Millennium festival where we'd 40.000 people on the beach. They turn round and say, well done Weymouth, we will actually think about coming to have a look at Weymouth when they get here."

I suspect that last sentence is a bit open to question. Is there really anybody out there who gave him that reply? It really would be helpful if anyone who freels misrepresented byu that statement gets back on to Weymouth, and Carlton TV.

One unfortunate thing about this is the way that the focus continues to be on the two-in-a-bar aspect, rather than the one-in-any-other-public-place which is even more monstrous. When skiffle erupted back in the 50s - and that is where most people from that time started playing, both the later folkies and the rick and pop musicians, it happened in coffee bars. Just try to find a coffee bar in England where they'd dare to allow live music these days.

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Gareth
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 02:21 PM

Mudcatters and others might like to see the text etc of Rogers TV appearence.

Click Here and click again on the TV ULR on the Browser Page.

Gareth

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:21 PM

No that was it. If you didn't see it lunchtime you will never see it. They did the MU interview live.

It would have been OK to show the filmed piece without this interview, I would have thought but............

I will write out the transcript anyway.

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:02 AM

No but they are doing a pretty good job of it at the moment.

It was a pretty rounded piece. Mr Gilmour spoke complete rubbish. The MU regional rep tended to make it sound as if the battle had been won and made light, I thought of the fact that we have to put up with this for the next two years.

The music was good, the close-up shots, not.

Where is the BBC's old Nationwide, when you need it?

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:05 AM

Keep us posted - there seems currently to be no programme going which picks out stuff from regional TV to show locally, so for national purposes it's in competition with War and Disaster and celebrity trivia.

But keep on hammering away, Shambles - we'll get there in time. They can't very well maintain in perpetuity a set of restrictions that are out of line with our neighbours in the European Union and with legally binding human rights obligations.

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:23 AM

The feature went out this lunchtime, Wednesday. I assume that it will be on again at six o clock.

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Ferret
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:46 PM

Good luck keep up the good work. all the best ferret

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 06:09 AM

The latest was that the interview with the local MU was to take place on Thursday 11 October, so the feature could not be shown until then. If this has now taken place, it should be on any time from now........

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:42 PM

Well today the local news was all about trying very hard to find some local connecton with the millitary action............

Maybe tomorrow?

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:59 PM

My experience with local TV is they come all matey and waste a lot of your time and don't tell you when it is braodcast. When quizzed on the subject they refer to a mid-day slot you won't have seen to fob you off - and it is unlikely they will have used it anyway. Event is Afghanistan will take precedence. Basically you are fodder and cheap at that. In my case they came from Abingdon to Malvern and would have braodcast only in the southern midlands anyway - no-one in Malvern can get that transmission they get it all from the Sutton transmitter. No-one tells you, you have to figure it out and basically use what influence you have. I had nothing! And my story hardly rated by comaprison with anything.
(Oh OK! it involved RED)

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:53 PM

I'd be interested to know if it did get aired...

Noreen

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:16 AM

I don't think that my perseverance is generally very commended, especially by the local council......*smoles*

I don't see that was much choice however?

I have not seen it on the local TV yet. Does anyone know if I have missed it?

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 10:18 AM

Hey, Shambles, good for you! Your perseverance in this is commendable. Good luck.

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:26 AM

This link is better UK folkies etc

Subject: RE: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 03:38 AM

More detailed info on the Public Entertainment Licence issue can be found by clicking here. Urgent help UK folkies

Subject: UK TV Cove Session/The Shambles
From: The Shambles
Date: 05 Oct 01 - 12:28 PM

The cameras from Carlton West Country TV, were present this Thursday to cover the Public Entertainment Licensing issue. It will appear in the region, any time from now as a two minute feature on the local news programmes.

The council were interviewed, as were the licensee and yours truly.

There should be a little bit of music from the session itself, featuring a few Mudcatters.

It's not exactly Show of Hands but………….