BS: New Rules for the Patriotic

Subject: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: WyoWoman
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:35 PM

TEN PROPOSED NEW LAWS FOR THIS PRESENT CRISIS:

1. To buy an American flag, you must present proof you have voted at least once in the last three elections (yes, local and state elections count).

2. To display an American flag in any form, you must present proof of voter registration.

3. To wave an American flag in public, you must be able to name at least one of the following:
A. One of your U.S. Senators
B. Your U.S. Representative
C. Your President ("George Bush" does not count; ambiguous)

4. To sell any product with an American flag on it, you must answer the following question correctly:
The Bill of Rights is part of:
- the Constitution;
- the Magna Carta;
- the Declaration of Independence.

5. Those heard singing patriotic songs in public may be asked to show their voter registration cards.

6. To be permitted to scream "Nuke Afghanistan," you must be able to correctly locate Afghanistan on a map or globe.

7. To be permitted to scream "Arabs go home," you must list and correctly locate ten Arab homelands.

8. Those who wish to express opinions about Arabs and Arab-Americans must pass the following test:
A. Those who follow the religion of Islam are called:
- Muslims
- Muslins
- Fanatics

B. The holy book of Islam is called:
- The Koran
- The Koram
- The Bible

C. In Arabic, God is called:
- Ali
- Allah
- Jehovah

9. Priority for purchase of American flags will be given to those whose ancestors lived on American soil the longest. When all American Indians who wish to display the red, white and blue are satisfied, other applicants will be accepted.

10. A call for war on any radio talk-show will be construed as a public declaration of willingness to enlist in the US Army; callers will have 24 hours to complete the paperwork.

Thenkyew, ww
(not my own creation--a forward from one of my friends)

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Amergin
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:49 PM

I like it...it is one of the most sensible things I have read about this...

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Gareth
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:49 PM

Wyowoman

What I like about Mudcat is the essential decency, and sanity, of the people here.

"And tell your children that sad old lie, Dulce et Dulcoram Est, Pro Patria Morie".

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Tone d' F
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:51 PM

6 and 9 are great but what's the point of voter registration cards if you can't count the votes {{:-)...or is that just Florida

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Tinker
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 06:59 PM

Thanks... both grounding and humerous... good stuff

Tinker

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: IvanB
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:16 PM

My first wife and I had a friend whose husband was an ex-marine who wore his patriotism on his sleeve. He constantly ranted against the policies and actions of our 'left-wing liberal' government at all levels. Then came the day when we found out he'd never in his life been registered to vote! Needless to say, we let him know his rants would fall on deaf ears as far as we were concerned.

Good list, WW.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:16 PM

Love it, WW, but you know what is funny is I don't think I've had a voter registration card since I was a teen and I've never missed a chance to vote. That would have been in Colorado, Wyoming, Massachusetts, and Connecticut. Do any states still give an actual physical card out anymore?

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: IvanB
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:20 PM

kat, in Michigan our card is issued by the local government, but I believe the issuance of registration cards is done under state law. As a matter of fact, we are asked when we renew our driver's license or license plates for our car if we are registered to vote (a recent practice started in the last 10 years). If not, we are offered the chance then and there.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 08:19 PM

These were good. I was sadly anticipating rules such as never quote Mr. Bush verbatim , quote only the corrected versions...etc.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: DougR
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 09:34 PM

In Arizona the party of your choice sends the registration card.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: catspaw49
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 10:21 PM

Sounds like a great way to encourage voter fraud Doug!!! LOL

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Bert
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:36 PM

Why is it that I suddenly feel very sad for fellow Americans who are either of Arab origin or who are Moslems.

All that I can say to them is that the above opinions are not those of all Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: katlaughing
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:40 PM

Bert? Did I misunderstand something? This is a piece of heavy irony, at least that is the way I read it. Please let me know what you meant?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Genie
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:41 PM

Wyo,
I would add that you would have to know that, contrary to commonly used terminology, the Senate is part of "Congress."
Genie

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:43 PM

But NOT sexual congress...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Bert
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 11:53 PM

I dunno kat but I see it as, a few bigoted statements surrounded by statements that seem reasonable. That's a typical ploy that I've seen from neo-nazis and others who wish to make their bigotry appear acceptable.

To me "Go home Arabs" is an ignorant and hateful statement that doesn't belong with efforts to encourage people to vote.

What it's really saying is, that if you are responsible enough to vote then it's OK to hate Moslems.

Sorry, that's not me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:13 AM

Bert,

I took it to mean that people should not express sentiments like that when they so obviously don't know the first thing about the people invovled.... it's a crticism of people who hate what they don;t know, not an invitation to hate.

The idea would be, I think, that a step in the direction of knowing ANYTHING about what one has demonized would tend to de-demonize... I mean humanize....

Look, it's late, the Bishop is in town, and I am tired, but I hope you got what I meant anyhow!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Bert
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:15 AM

Ah! OK, Now I see how you were reading it. I guess I'm a bit too sensitive at times. Sorry Luv.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:17 AM

Sorry, Bert, I didn't see it that way, but I understand what you mean. Thank you.

I think Susan has put it the way I saw it. It was making fun of the idiots I see who are waving their flags and do not have the slightest clue about such things as are listed in the above. Of course, if they DID, the inference is they would not BE saying such horrible things as "Arabs go home."

kat

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:18 AM

??!!!{{{{{[[[[[((((((<<<<>>>>>))))))]]]]]}}}}}!!!!!??

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:19 AM

ooops! Bert fell out of his hug-- I squoze too hard!

??!!!{{{{{[[[[[((((((<<<< BERT >>>>>))))))]]]]]}}}}}!!!!!??

~s~

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From:
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:56 AM

unless you personally know the people waving their flags, how would you know they are idiots? mg

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:18 AM

Unfortunately, mgarvey, there are those who automatically assume that all flag wavers are idiots, war mongers, morons, and a host of other perjorative terms.
They probably don'twant to know them as that might destroy one of their most cherished illusions; that those who don't think the way they do are somehow inferior.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:11 AM

. . . driving down the road in a Subaru Outback while talking on a Nokia cell-phone (made in Finland) with a bumper sticker that says "Buy American."

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:52 AM

Good point, mary, I stand corrected. However, in Wyoming, it's a sure bet that a lot of the folk who ARE waving about their flags are ultra-conservative, some even far right and prejudice, as evidenced by their consistently voting in some of the same types and also by their letters to the editor, as well as personal interaction, not only with myself, but the minority members of our state. There are still people, here, who consider themselves to be true blue Americans, who call my native American neighbour's children "prairie niggers." That, to me, is NOT what America or patriotism is all about, but they are some of the first to wave the flag, call for war, and preach distrust of those different from them.

Troll, one of the things we've worked hard on in the Wyoming Grassroots Project is trying to include all in our workshops, meetings, and culture festivals to encourage human rights. We do not consider others who think differently as inferior. I might think they are misguided, but it doesn't mean I am any better than them.

Maybe you had a right to make that observation based on my generalisation, but I would hope you'd know me better than that by now.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Skeptic
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:29 AM

In Florida you have to register and they issue a registration card. If you don't have it but are on the voter rolls, there is a process whereby you can provide alternate ID (usually a drivers license) and still vote. This way, your vote still stands as equal a chance of not being counted as those who have their cards.

I was never sure why it was so important to others why I fly the flag. Or why I should care what others will think about me because I do. I fly it for my reasons, not theirs. What it symbolizes is personal. Worrying about what others think it means to me has always struck me as a little High School sophomoric.

kat,

Troll wasn't responding to you (I think) but about posts on other threads where people stated all those things about people who display the flag. With a few more pejoratives thrown in for good measure. I answer for him as insomnia has gripped me and not him (for once).

Regards

John.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:39 AM

John, thanks, it has grabbed me, too, for some reason. We'll see, Troll may still have meant me, too. I was one of those who posted about not flying their flag because of what it is usually perceived as meaning in the area I live in.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Mike Byers
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 07:17 AM

Good one, WyoWoman; it made my day to read this. Do you mind if I re-print it? And a couple of days ago I was talking to a friend in Oregon: seems he was stuck in traffic and observed a woman who appeared to be foreign-born (at least she was wearing some sort of foreign-looking clothing) being verbally harassed by a redneck. She rolled down the window and shot him the bird (aka "the sailor's farewell") and was roundly applauded by the people around her in the traffic jam. Ya gotta love America: often vulgar, sort of funny but on the main good-hearted...

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Bert
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:01 PM

Well I've just been reading this again in the light of day and I'll try to explian why I saw it differently.

The first five questions are Good/Good combinations. Then along come the next two questions which sneak in a Bad/Good combination.
...permitted to scream "Nuke Afghanistan,".../correctly locate Afghanistan on a map
and ...scream "Arabs go home,"/locate ten Arab homelands...

This appears to give approval to the 'Bad' actions which suddenly appear.

I'm still not sure whether that was intended in the original posting but I've seen so many similar hate lists from neo-nazi type groups that it jerked my chain.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:43 PM

kat, Skeptic is correct. I used your post to sound off about those in this world who would rather die than have their precious predjudices challenged.
While I realize that your mind isn't as open as Skeptics,(his is more like a seive that's been be-screened with field fence) you are capable of looking at the other guts POV even if you don't agree with it.
Sorry if you thought I was coming down on you.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Skeptic
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:17 PM

Kat,

Told you so. Hope you don't feel slighted.* ;-)

Troll,

From someone who filled his mind with mis-information, trivia and libertarian pipe-dreams 30 years ago and then ruthlessly sealed it shut so that nothing new could get in and none of the old ideas could get out, it's a litte presumptuous of you to talk about an "open mind". Well, it's a lot presumptuous. Not, however, unexpected.

And after I was nice and came to your rescue when, once again, you didn't pay attention, typed before you did what passes as thought, and almost hurt the nice lady's feelings.

I also resent the implication that I am open-minded. This slight too, has been noted and entered in my files for future retribution..

Regards

John

* If you do, I'm sure troll would be happy to "come down on you" too in his (thankfully) inimitable style.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Skeptic
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:51 PM

Message deleted by poster's request;
in the wrong thread.
yer friendly neighbourhood joclone gal:-)

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:22 PM

Pssst...Skeptic?

Wrong thread.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Skeptic
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:40 PM

troll,

All are eternally grateful and appreciative of your compulsion to state the obvious.

I have already asked the nice joeclone lady you so callously and thoughlessly insulted to correct the error.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:42 PM

Prairie Niggers???? My god, kat. An ethnic slur I have never heard. And just as ugly and pathetic as the ones I have heard.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: WyoWoman
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:47 PM

Bert, that absolutely wasn't what I meant, and I'd think by now you'd know me well enough to realize that if I'm saying something even remotely like, "Nuke Somebody," it's in a deeply ironic way and not a bit of seriousness to it. Who I was sending up is the "experts" sitting on their barstools going off about American politics and the affairs of the world as if they know squat about it when they can't even trouble themselves to be informed about the most basic elements of current events. And what I was putting down, in a backhanded way, was the idiots -- and I use that term utterly seriously -- who are saying "Arab, Go Home," when they don't even know who's Arab and who isn't, and certainly aren't informed enough about geography to name even ONE Arab homeland. That you would equate something I say with the "neo-Nazis" astounds me.

Listen, my friend, I went out of my way today (like, an hour's drive) to have lunch at a Middle Eastern restaurant as a statement to the owners and anyone who might be in the restaurant or walking by that some of us here in the good ol' U.S.A. clearly distinguish between the people who perpetrated the attack on America and people who are of Middle Eastern descent. I did it out of support, not for the attackers, but for Arab-Americans, who've taken some nasty shots lately and I figure can use all the pleasantness and support we can offer, even if it only means eating lentil soup in their cafe ...

And, frankly, even though I worry about the outcome and the complications that are going to arise, and even though I know we contributed to the situation in the first place, I am not at all in disagreement with going after the Taliban. After reading about their subjugation of women for a few years now, I figure doing what can be done to free the people of that country from those oppressors stacks up more on the side of right than wrong. I don't know how you bomb a country and only target a specific group of religous thugs, but ... maybe time will tell. I figure we're only creating a new variety of hellishness for them and for us, but ... it was inevitable that something had to give. May God have mercy on us all ...

ww

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Susan from California
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:16 PM

Last week I bought a t shirt that absolutely disgusted me to save as a "primary source".I know that years from now people will have forgetten just how strange things are right now, and I will be able to pull out the evidence. The t shirt has a graphic of the Statue of Liberty. The torch has been replaced by a machine gun, and the words across the top are "JUSTICE WILL BE SERVED". I am a patriotic person,I have voted in every election minor and major since I turned 18. I have fought for the Bill of Rights when it has cost me physically, emotionally and economically. Part of me did not want to support with $$$ the person who printed the shirt, but I bought it anyway for the historic value. For someone to turn Lady Liberty into a symbol for violence bothers me.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:36 PM

Trolldarlin'...good thing you have Skeptic to come mop up your messes!**BG** All has been made perfectly clear now, no problem, sweetie.:-)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: SharonA
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:37 AM

Did anybody watch the Miss America pageant a couple of weekends ago? (*blush* I admit it; I did) They instituted a new competition this year: a game-show-styled multiple-choice quiz for the five finalists. One of the questions, I recall, was: "What famous document begins with the words 'When in the course of human events'?" Only one or two out of the five women knew the answer (and, if I remember correctly, one of the incorrect answers came from Miss Washington DC). Miss AMERICA, no less. Goodwill ambassador for the nation. Eek.

And just last summer, Mel Gibson and several other famous actors and actresses performed a dramatic reading of the Declaration of Independence in Philadelphia. You'd think the girls would've noticed that going by, but I guess not. Too busy practicing walking down a runway with a crown, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM

In Warshington (that's how we pronounce it -- to distinguish it from that D.C. place, or perhaps because we're all hicks at heart) your county issues you a voter reg. card. when you register to vote. Thus in moving from King Co. to Pierce Co., my voter reg. card changed color, shape, and size! Now it's almost the same size and shape and color as my official ACLU card (I didn't join, but they (presumably) sent me a card on the offhand chance that I would, and then they wouldn't have to go through the expense of mailing me twice! I keep it in my wallet as a joke -- to whip out and show to my conservative friends who might want to call me a card-carrying liberal!).

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:25 PM

TEN PROPOSED NEW LAWS FOR THIS PRESENT CRISIS:

1. To buy an American flag, you must present proof you have voted at least once in the last three elections (yes, local and state elections count).

Not voting can be a political statement as well. I'd say that to own a flag one must pass the US knowledge test which Immigrants (new adult citizens) are required to pass.

2. To display an American flag in any form, you must present proof of voter registration.

See above

3. To wave an American flag in public, you must be able to name at least one of the following: A. One of your U.S. Senators B. Your U.S. Representative C. Your President ("George Bush" does not count; ambiguous)

See above.

4. To sell any product with an American flag on it, you must answer the following question correctly: The Bill of Rights is part of: - the Constitution; - the Magna Carta; - the Declaration of Independence.

U.S.A. people should get a part of the Proceeds. (You can't use Canadian Flag without permission)

5. Those heard singing patriotic songs in public may be asked to show their voter registration cards.

Must know what the song is about, who wrote it and why, especially "God Blessed America for Me"

6. To be permitted to scream "Nuke Afghanistan," you must be able to correctly locate Afghanistan on a map or globe.

Must visit at least 100 people at a burn ward. Must be able to recite the order of symptoms for radiation sickness. Must look at least 1000 Afgani children in the eye and apologize for killing/making them orphins in advance. Must supply a solution for the destruction of world economy and sability in advance. Must be willing to go to Afghanistan and hold up a targeting sign saying "drop bomb here"

7. To be permitted to scream "Arabs go home," you must list and correctly locate ten Arab homelands.

Must pass citizenship test. Must write an essay entitled "The economic benefits of Immigration." Must be willing to endure equal discrimination. Perhaps castration to prevent the genetic proliferation of ignorance and stupidity.

8. Those who wish to express opinions about Arabs and Arab-Americans must pass the following test: A. Those who follow the religion of Islam are called: - Muslims - Muslins - Fanatics

B. The holy book of Islam is called: - The Koran - The Koram - The Bible

C. In Arabic, God is called: - Ali - Allah - Jehovah

Is a Syrian an Arab? An Iraqi?, An Afgani? a Yemini? A cabdriver in New York?

Who invented our current number system? Algebra? Trigonometry? Who preserved civilization during the dark ages?

9. Priority for purchase of American flags will be given to those whose ancestors lived on American soil the longest. When all American Indians who wish to display the red, white and blue are satisfied, other applicants will be accepted.

Ancestors have nothing to do with it. It is what WE do as individuals that count.

10. A call for war on any radio talk-show will be construed as a public declaration of willingness to enlist in the US Army; callers will have 24 hours to complete the paperwork.

We don't want people like that in our Armys. But we could consider a special "war mongers" tax. In the Civil war Northerners could buy exemptions by paying people to fight in their place. Perhaps modern war mongers could put up the couple of million it takes to train a pilot or Green Beret?

Thenkyew, ww (not my own creation--a forward from one of my friends)

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Genie
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:50 PM

Jack,
Some of your comments bring to mind the recently posted essay by Mark Twain about what you are really praying for when you ask God to help your side in wartime. Well worth reading.

From posts above:

"Wyo, I would add that you would have to know that, contrary to commonly used terminology, the Senate is part of "Congress." --Genie
From: Little Hawk --"But NOT sexual congress..."

Little Hawk, I'm not so sure about that!

Wyo, I would add to your list that to wave the flag and laud "conservativism," you should have to know that Saddam Hussein, Osama Bin Laden, The Taliban, and the governments of Arab countries are neither communists nor liberals!

One more:
Posting you flag on you car windows where it blocks your visual field, thus endangering yourself and others, is not patriotic. (See John Prine's "Flag Decal.")

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Chicken Charlie
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 03:06 PM

Cool. I am having a little trouble equating a jump in the purchase of US flags made in China and Mexico (both entirely decent countries you understand) with "an outpouring of patriotism."

CC

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Amergin
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:03 PM

i posted this at another site..and it looks to have cause a row...lol

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:34 PM

Genie,

A mention of Mark Twain and John Prine in the same post. Two of my favorite philosiphers! Can you point me at that Mark Twain quote?

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: GUEST,Genie
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:26 PM

Jack, here's the Mark Twain thread

click here

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Rebel135
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:09 AM

WyoWoman,

I understand what you say but even in jest I don't agree with it.

Why not go the distance and use Robert Heinlein version? To be a citizen you must have served in the Armed Forces of your country? To express an opinion you must first earn the right of free speech.

I suspect that a lot of the people screaming and suddenly requesting flags would suddenly be indignant, if this simple solution were put into effect.

During my time as a RA, soldier in the United States Army I never had one person say thanks for defending your country.

My friend Frank Bahman was down at the local grocery store in Baltimore Maryland one day. When a guy came up to him and said, "Are You In The Army?" Frank said yes and the guy 'Coldcocked Frank'. When Frank got up the guy had gone and Frank would have left him a bloody mess if he could have found him.

A lot of the Vetrans I know never heard anybody say thank you before the recent wars. (Starting With The Gulf War) And it was not said to them, it was said to the current incarnation of soldiers.

The point is that public fancy runs hot and cold, and if your lucky enough to be fighting a patriotic war that everybody likes, you will do well.

Thomas Paine in Common Sense one of the most influential writings in American History speaks of Summer Soldier, those who rally round the colors in good times.

It's the Winter Soldier of whom I would like to stand with, be they draftees or volunteers.

I served so that idiots and summer soldiers can yell there head off and its the job of our representative to make sure that we act in accordance with our countries beliefs. For want of a better statment. Of Truth, Of Justice, And The American Way.

Look us in the eyes, we stand here ready to serve our country but we allow citizens who have not earned the right to use those pricipals for which many of us have served, fought and died for, without reservation.

Yes I watch the intellectual mahem and it scares me to some degree but as a Winter Soldier, one of the men and women who stand in defense of our country that it is just a passing fad.

There are those of us, Americans who have no where to run and will fight and die for our principle, our way of life and our family.

Wes Prichard

George Washington. The First Rebel

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 06:23 AM

Jack the Sailor, you might like to tell your friend that the Arabs were not responsible for inventing our current number system. The credit for that goes to the Hindus of India.

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Orac
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:17 AM

To be honest I found the beginning of all this in thoroughly bad taste. Remember the we British are fighting in this conflict and several hundred died in the atrocity as did other nationalities. If Americans want the majority of the world to be on their side, particularly the Arab world this not best achieved by continual pictures of flag-waving Americans on TV.. Just think for a while how we all thought when we saw pictures on TV of cheering Palestinians who had just heard about the World Trade Center....
It seems to me that "patiotism" or really being taken over by chauvinism.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:28 AM

Murray MacLeod. Well how about for refining the number system using it in myraid practical ways and introducing it to the West. The point was that Arab culture is responsible for much of or civilization.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Genie
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:15 PM

Rebel, I applaud most of what you say. Still, willingness of soldiers to fight and die for their country will not make that country free or great
if the country's laws do not allow freedom or greatness. [The ones who flew the planes into the towers were willing to die for their beliefs, too!]

I am very troubled when I sometimes see the same people waving the flag (literally and/or figuratively) while at the same time calling for abandoning the Bill of Rights.

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:32 PM

One can contribute to a society without serving in the armed forces. All should be able to maximize their contribution but doing what they do best. But I still believe the privledge of voting should be earned so that it is appreciated. Immigrants have to pass a citizenship test, why not people born here?

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM

Geeziz...........Some of y'all are reading stuff into this that ain't there!

It's about the folks who really could care less until something big happens. I have neighbors that I'm sure have no idea which hemisphere they live in, let alone where Afghanistan is! Some never vote but are willing and ready to complain about how the "government" (local, state, national) is run. AND, if you'll walk outside with me, I'll show you their homes....and all of them have a flag hung out! This is about bombast and bragging and false pride. I don't mean they shouldn't, but it would be nice to know they actually thought first about doing the everyday things that are expected of us.

Ever been to a sporting event where the loudest asshole in the place has no knowledge of the game? Same thing. Try to lighten up a little.............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Rebel135
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:41 AM

Genie states.

I am very troubled when I sometimes see the same people waving the flag (literally and/or figuratively) while at the same time calling for abandoning the Bill of Rights.

To reply, I would agree with you, intelligent Americans understand basic principles of America rest on the guarantees of freedoms for everybody, even the "pinkos" fellow travelers, peaceniks and the anarachists. I actually heard somebody use the word peacenik the other day! Where there is no living Constitution and defense of freedoms, there will you see tyranny?

Jack states. One can contribute to a society without serving in the armed forces. All should be able to maximize their contribution but doing what they do best. But I still believe the privilege of voting should be earned so that it is appreciated. Immigrants have to pass a citizenship test, why not people born here? To reply.

Jack, lets put this point into words of the International. The short form of this is of course is the classic and indisputable truth. "To each according to their needs to each according to their abilities.

I wholeheartedly disagree, freedom and the right to vote is the bedrock of our society. Like any other freedom, with my Army service I have earned the right not to vote, should I chose to, what about you? . Do you know how to service a 50-caliber machinegun? You seem to disregard the value and of putting your life on the line for your fellow citizens.

As for immigrants, quite frequently they now start their life in the United States by violating the very laws they would claim later to hold so dear.

In much of the cases, if you're a thugs or an angel, you can get into this country, or Canada for that matter,(or Australia), by just getting here. Later just get a good lawyer. (Remember the immigrant ship that rammed San Francisco and everybody jumped out.) It was about two year ago.

As to passing a test to be an American, if you want I think I can find my Alabama Voters Registration Test. A remnant of the good old days when we could make sure only the right people voted. It takes somebody with about a Masters in Political Science to have a change at passing it.

Jack you talk as if you think only the educated should vote. Are you a Conservative Republican?

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Melani
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:52 PM

What Spaw said.

Jack the Sailor, I agree with your comment about individuals, not ancestry. I just read in this morning's paper that a Sikh organization showed up for a memorial service for Californians killed on 9/11 wearing solid red, white or blue turbans. It seems like a nice thing to do, underlining diversity, but may also have been inspired by fear.

The bombing happened to begin on my birthday. That wasn't really the present I had in mind. I celebrated my birthday Monday night with dinner in an Afghani restaurant. They had an American flag in the window--partly sentiment, I'm sure, and also partly self-preservation, to try to fend off idiots. Inside, as an obviously longtime part of their regular decor, they had a poster that said "Free Afghanistan." I mean, I figured they were here for a reason, and not back home hanging out with the Taliban.

By the way, it was about the best meal I've had in 20 years. The Helmand, on Broadway, if you're in San Francisco. Expensive, but worth every penny!

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:03 PM

For the record: from each according to his abilities

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 01:26 PM

Rebel135

Nice rhetoric, not based in reality of 2001 though, What percentage of the armed forces puts their lives on the line? It's a lot safer to be a cook on the Enterprize or an aircraft mechanic than it is to drive to my job. I don't know how to service a 50 caliber machine gun but I could probably run the email system for the Pentagon. Would you say that skill is less valuable? Even in war? The Army is important, it is not the only thing that is important.

I'm economically conservative but I see the value of social programs. I really don't like political labels. I like to make my mind up issue by issue. I'm Not in any way a Republican. I see your point about voter registration being open to abuse. Especially in the US where elections officials are elected and beholden to one party or another. But uneducated voter are open to exploitation by both sides. Education is a key to successful democracy.

You know, I know lots of immigrants, not one of whom broke the law upon entering the country. Who are the immigrants of which you speak? I think by far the majority are angels, test or not.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 07:28 PM

Just a brief bit on definitions: Arabs are natives of the Arabian peninnsula (or their descendents, regardless of nationality). Afganis are not Arabs, nor are Iranians. Arabs can be Moslim, Christian or Jewish. Moslims/Muslims can be of any ethnicity or nationality. Sikhs are neither Arab nor Moslim.

BTW, I believe I read somewhere that naturalized citizens of the US have a lower per-capita crime rate than the native-born, but I'll be darned if I can find the source of that statistic.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Troll
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:37 PM

Yes Jack, it probably is safer on the Enterprise than in your car.(BG)
But, as you drive your car to work, even in wartime, you don't have to worry about torpedos, or bombers or any of that. The cook on the Big E will be on a gunmount when the enemy planes come and the aircraft mec will be on a damage control team and their lives will damn sure be on the line.
It's all important but it all exists to get that man up to the line as quickly as possible, as well equiped as possible, and get him back safely.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 10:40 AM

Yes it is important. But in 2001, it is hardly putting one's life on the line. Any more than driving to work or driving to to do volenteer work is putting one's life on the line for one's country. When was the last time someone was injured by enemy fire on a carrier? 1945?

Things have changed. In this war the safest place to be is on a carrier or military base. I have a lot of respect for the ideas Robert Heinlein put accross in "Starship Troopers" and other such books. But I think those ideas were better suited to the 40's 50's & 60's. In today's time of smart weapons, bombers dropping precision armaments from 50,000 feet, cruise missles, unmanned surveilence drones etc. Most armed service personnel are well away from the danger, working consoles doing maintenence and pressing buttons. In light of that, the contribution of the cop who keeps order the flight attendant who flies in spite of fear, or the worker who pays taxes to pay for these fantastic weapons becomes pretty much as important as the serviceman.

Subject: RE: BS: New Rules for the Patriotic
From: Rebel135
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:42 AM

Jack,

Being in the Navy is danger iteself. 10-20% of all the flyers in the US Navy don't make it to retirement, they crash and die.

Read the book The Right Stuff the begining section tells of the hazards of pilots.

As to normal sailors, My dad almost died three times when he was in the Navy. Ok it was World War II but what really happend was that my dad left a patrol ship on the Oregon coast. He left all his valuables with a buddy and went to a new assignement. A week later the ship went down in a storm and everybody died. It turned turtle and now rest off the Oregon coast.

Another time, he was in the fantale of the USS Biloxi? and he and a buddy were talking and when the saw a torpedo heading for where they were standing. They yelled to the bridge and got the ship turned in time. If they had not seen the danger, he said it would have killed them.

Another time he was ordered to leave Alaska. He gave up his seat to a Navy Commander. The plane went down and everybody died. It was storming in Alaska and he said that the plane he took to get out of Alaska set down 6 times. He never would fly again.

Now in the real world. My friend Curts nephew, Caleb was on the USS Cole when it was attacked in Aden. He was the first diver down to try to rescue his friends who were killed.

In the real world, in the Army, things happen and people die.

Many serviceman are not in harms way, but others are.

As to the immigrants, don't live in the West do you. Politicians from Mexico came to the Yakima Valley last year to campaign for election. You see amoung the thousands or millions of illegal aliens, so many are here that the policticans are follwing the voters.

In the agriculure and forrest service work, ie farming or planting trees, etc large percentages are illegal.

Its not worthwhile to go on, this is just one issue.

My office is filled with American flags. Before September 11, the only person who had an American Flag up is? take one guess. I'm embarrased now to have it up now because it seems like, I'm one of the crowd part of the temporary hysteria.?

Some of us just try to do our best, I'm in this for the long haul.

Wes Prichard