Attacks begin

Subject: Attacks begin
From: Banjer
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM

According to breaking news the air strikes on Afghani targets have started.

God Bless America

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 12:47 PM

....& God help us all!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:02 PM

....I'm just waiting for an Official Statement from the British Government, cos Bush's speech implies that we (in the form of the R.A.F. of course) are also involved in this attack.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM

May each person's god or not bless all involved. This is sad.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:43 PM

Yes it is very sad, we've reached the point of no return. There can be no turning back. Though I dislike the idea of more people being killed and wounded, there is no other way forward now and it can't stop until all terrorists believe that there is no future in the indiscriminate murder of non combatant innocent civilians. The Talibahn had enough time to consider, they knew that they were partly the instruments, by support, of the murder of 8000 people, let alone the other 100's that have died in the other bombings, Africa etc, the 1000's that have died by their hands etc. They should have kicked Bin Laden out for justice, but they didn't. I believe that whilst we may loose friends, and relatives, to stop this happening again, it is vital that the whole world condems and refuses to harbour these people.

Nobody in their right mind can not believe that America will go the distance.It is just not logical to think that you can kill 8000 people on the native soil of the biggest military power in the world and expect nothing to happen in return.

Good luck to all of us.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:47 PM

Heh. Heh. I'd sure like to ask the Taliban and the fanatics hiding in caves like rats, "Uh, well what did you THINK was going to happen?"

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:49 PM

Blair is announcing Britain's involvement in what's happening in Afghanisan right now.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:50 PM

In my own humble opinion, if we had to hit in the short term rather than the long, we should have had another WEEK of diplomatic efforts all round, TRYING to firm up the Coalition, a week of dropping food to the population, to make it clear that only those who STAYED with the Taliban were targets, a week for the US Military to 'acclimatise' to the environment....

(thats ONE week to do all of those things...not consecutive weeks, of course....)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM

"I miss my mummy very much and will only be happy when she is back home" - Yvonne Ridley's daughter Daisy

hope she got out in time

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Jeri
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:01 PM

From what Tony Blair is saying, France, Germany, Australia and Canada have committed forces as well as the UK. Apparently, Great Britain's subs were used in this attack to fire missles.

I don't know...if we had done nothing, the terrorism would have continued and more innocent people would have died. People would have continued living in constant fear of the next attack. More terrorist attacks will come, but we may eventully get rid of the biggest terrorist organization in the world. Innocents will die in this war, but it may stop a government's use of terrorism. I don't think there's a solution that won't get people killed. I hope we can hang onto the compassion that makes being human worth it.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM

Paul, from our POV another week would have been good. But we don't have all the facts of the coallition and it's cohesivness or lack of same.
About all we can do at this point is pray, meditate, or get drunk, and hope that our respective leaders have made the right choices.
Because, right or wrong, we are now truly at war, and we can only dimly perceive the long-range repercussions.

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: heric
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:12 PM

Canada? Canada?? How would you like to have war declared on you by Canada????

I always remember a recruiting ad from twenty years ago. Three frigates were plowing through rough seas, and the narrator said: "This is the Canadian Navy!" The standard joke going around (in Canada) was : "That's it?"

(If Canadian personnel are putting themselves in harm's way, then God Bless them, and I make no jokes about them.)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:19 PM

Oh, Bl**dy H*ll, Guest, YES..... I feel quite guilty that I didnt consider that...

Troll, agreed

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:29 PM

Chilling video footage on CNN just now

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:32 PM

BTW, whatever happened to the "firm" US "policy" (from the dawn of the Hijack Age) that terrorists would not be given news coverage? That we would not allow these acts to result in more and wider platforms for the spread of whatever hateful message they claim as "honorable motivation"?

~S~

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:38 PM

"We" are at war? Well, somebody is at war all right, but I'm not. Not so far anyway.

Here's an observation on the concept of terrorizing terrorists...

"it can't stop until all terrorists believe that there is no future in the indiscriminate murder of non combatant innocent civilians."

Well, there's definitely no "future" in piloting an airplane into the side of a skyscraper...after all, the guys who did it are dead! So, how do you deter people who are willing to die? By killing them all before they get a chance to do it themselves? Hmmmm....

Now if you could just find them all...

This would require killing people not only in Afghanistan, but in a very long list of other places as well.

It's a pity that terrorists don't all have horns growing out of their heads, or some obvious feature like that, then you could kill them all quite easily, without needing expensive items like cruise missiles to do it.

You would think, evil as they are, that nature or God or something would have provided horns or something like that. It just isn't fair! Even Bin Laden looks like a sort of kindly soul...no mad glint in his eyes in those press photos. And Saddam...he looks like any other beefy middle-aged Iraqui guy with a mustache. Geez. :-)

Be that as it may, I am not surprised about these military strikes...it was virtually inevitable, and it will make a number of people in the West feel better, specially Americans.

Let's hope it doesn't last too long or broaden into a wider conflict.

- LH

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: 53
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:42 PM

it's about time that the free world show who's boss. we've been made fools of for long enough, and i'm very proud to be an american today and i will be tommorrow. god bless all our people who are involved and that their families. may also be comforted. bob.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,newsboy
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

CarolC as a Brit I find it amazing that you can tell me that Blair is addressing the nation. My TV is on and I have watched Bush address America but I am waiting for Blair to tell me what's happening.

I did post a day or so ago on your thread about Blair being a statesman and what we brits felt about him. I feel more and more that he barely scrapes through as the monkey to anyone else's organ grinder.

I feel that he re-acts rather than acts, that he is a follower rather than a leader.

At the moment he looks like a fool. If he is important in this conflict and Britain is an equal partner then he should have addressed us at the same time as Bush addressed America. Thatcher and Reagan could do it why can't he.

With you in your pain over 11 Sept.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM

CAIRO, Egypt (AP) - Osama bin Laden called Americans "sinners" in a tape carried by Al-Jazeera satellite channel Sunday and released after the strikes launched by the United States and Britain.

Bin Laden was shown dressed in fatigues and an Afghan headdress. It appeared to be daylight, which would mean that the tape was made before the nighttime attack in Afghanistan.

"America was hit by God in one of its softest spots," bin Laden said. "America is full of fear from its north to its south, from its west to its east. Thank God for that."

He continued: "Our nation has been tasting fear, hatred and injustices for years."

"Millions of innocent children are being killed in Iraq and in Palestine and we don't hear a word from the infidels. We don't hear a raised voice."

"When the sword falls on the United States, they cry for their children and they cry for there people. The least you can say about these people is that they are sinners. They have helped evil triumph over good."

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:02 PM

Little Hawk, you have taken my words and quoted them out of context. The sentence is not about "terrorising terrorists", but that the war, now begun (by your and my governments)cannot stop until terrorists realise that the concept of the "terror" weapon, ie themselves will achieve nothing in terms of political gain except the condemnation of the world.

We was the collective we of mankind, not me personally, obviously not you, but given the choice to fight and defend my family from these people or let them do it again and again and again killing who knows how many,(and I agree bin Laden has a soft and gentle look about him, even his body language is soft)then I would chose to fight and if nescessary die.I did not say we could kill all terrorists all over the world (a little bit immature to suggest that this is the thinking behind my statements.) But if we (the world population can decide together that ther is no safe haven for terrorists then maybe the concept will diminish.

Please don't misuse my words.

I don't feel happy about any war, I don't feel happy about any other human suffering, I do not feel happy, glad or any other feeling of pleasure that humans are once again engaged in conflicts that will leave more dead.Who ever they support.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:05 PM

I can't imagine what difference another week would have made. The coalition appears to be very strong as it is. It seems to me that considerable restraint has been shown by waiting until all ducks were in line before attacking.

Newsboy, you obviously are no fan of Tony Blair,and that's your right, of course. From my view in the U. S., I feel he has been very effective.

DougR

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,newsboy
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

DougR

Can you explain why you feel he has been effective. I would like to hear from him in the way I have heard from your president. i can't vote for your guy I voted for mine and would like him to do what Bush has done - tell us brits whats going on. I think that its a pity that some one who represents my country doesn't refer back to people.

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:18 PM

I don't know that Tony Blair has had too much choice (though I am glad about that)The establishment, our NATO treaty, The EU and our alliance and relationship with America made it almost impossible for us to sit on the sidelines.
It isn't an attack on Islam (we spent our time in Jugoslavia helping the Muslims) but a rightful attack on the people who think they can kill and main without care.America deserved and needed the support of the world over this.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:22 PM

newsboy I live in the UK, I heard Tony Blair on various satellite channels tonight. If the terrestial channels don't think the story is worth covering then vent your wrath on them.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:22 PM

Those that do not support the U.S. and the coalition countries in their reprisals against the Taliban and the ongoing campaign to eradicate Bin Laden and his network, should be shot for treason.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:23 PM

it's about time that the free world show who's boss

53 (bob)

Boss of whom, bob?

GUEST,newsboy, do you get CNN where you are in Britain? That's what I've been watching. I saw and heard Mr. Blair speaking myself.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:23 PM

Eric - Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you are immature or that you hold immature opinions. I was just using your words as a platform, so to speak, to make a particular point of my own...off on a different tangent.

People are always quoting other people's words out of context on this forum...it's an occupational hazard here, but I can understand that you don't like it, so I will try not to do that again (to you, I mean...I don't guarantee NEVER to do it again to anybody...I doubt I have quite that much self-control :-))

I don't personally feel that I am "at war" in this situation, although my country is involved in it. I can imagine situations where I would feel I was "at war", but this isn't one of them. This, to me, is just a huge multinational tragedy that began on Sept 11 (or you could say it began a long time before that, depending on your viewpoint). I have no wish to add to the existing body count.

If you feel that attacking Afghanistan genuinely will help end terrorism, then I can understand why you support it.

- LH

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:24 PM

I also heard his speech via the ITN website which had a live feed

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:29 PM

Blair Text

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:35 PM

Little Hawk;pax. No, I don't believe attacking Afghanistan will solve the problem, destroying the Talibahn might.......(not easy !) They don't hold the whole of Afghanistan and are not the rightful government either.And, truthfully the "world" has been at war forever (somewhere). I think that there have only been about 3 years or so in the last century when the whole world was globally at peace.I don't wish to add to the body count either. Where I live is fairly multicultural with a lot of Muslims and other Asian sub continent peoples. Quite a few are friends and colleagues. I worry for them, and for us all, I worry for my children. It is a sad day for us all.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: heric
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:41 PM

>>>>If you feel that attacking Afghanistan genuinely will help end terrorism, then I can understand why you support it. <<<<<

You just did it again, already. ;)

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: heric
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM

Good Work if You Can Get It?

Bin Laden Look-Alikes Reportedly Placed in Afghanistan

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nm/20011007/ts/attack_binladen_doubles_dc_2.html

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Justa Picker
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Here's a working link for the above URL.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

The wonderful English weather (wind and rain) seems to have taken out my TV aerial today just as all this started to happen, so all I have is a blank black screen. You start to wonder what someone could do if they were really trying to make communication difficult.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,newsboy
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:18 PM

Thanks Roger from Shefield for the text of Blair's and thanks CarolC. I only have terrestial TV. I ain't no genius but I would have thought that starting a war and being a big important statesman and all that you could ask the state controlled TV channels to interupt a soap opera or whatever and tell people what you were up to.

Roger - Read the opening words of Blair's speech "As you all know from the announcement by President Bush...." Sounds like he came second in telling his electorate that it had all stared. Not venting wrath - expressing disappoinment in my government not telling me what they're about.

I thought that they should.

Peace love and democratic socialism to all.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:28 PM

Hurricane, Picker,

with that Reuters report, perhaps the Humanitarian Aid should include Razors & 'Grecian 2000 for Beards & Moustaches' then? *g*

Though I suppose things are a little too serious for flippant comments like that.

Lets hope though, that todays events herald the beginning of a safer & better World for EVERYONE on it.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Justa Picker
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:30 PM

You would think with a 25 million dollar bounty, that someone would be willing to sell him out.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

newsboy: state controlled TV channels ... which country did you say you lived in?

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM

Peace love and democratic socialism to all.

I like that. And to you, GUEST,newsboy.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Troll
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:37 PM

We need a beard-seeking missile. (not mine. I stole it from another forum)

troll

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:46 PM

*G*

Well, lets say that we are going to unbeard the 'lion' in his den.... if 'unbeard' can EVER be a real word!

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,newsboy
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:49 PM

Noreen,

I live in the UK. The government licences the TV companies. They can therefore ask them the odd favour like a few minutes to say we've just gone to war. That's all I meant to say.

Meet you in a happier future

Ivan

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:57 PM

OK, Ivan- but that's a long way from state control; freedom of the press and all that. Another discussion for another day, perhaps.

Thanks, all, for the links and information here.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: DougR
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:22 PM

Ivan: I'll drink to peace and love, but not to socilism, of course.

As to Bush speaking before Blair, that probably was decided by the coalition (just a guess of course).

I also heard the PM from Pakistan yesterday and thought he made a very effective speech.

DougR

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

Hate to break it to you DougR, but the US practices a form of democratic socialism, and has for a long time. You live in a democratically (somewhat) socialist country.

Cheers, comrade.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:21 PM

I found a story on the deployment of US tactcal nuclear weapons as well as China entering the war at http://www.debka.com

China Moves Forces into Afghanistan 6 October: Before even the launching of the major US military offensive in Afghanistan, long Chinese convoys were carrying armed Chinese Muslim servicemen through northwest China into Afghanistan, according to DEBKAfile's intelligence experts.

They were sent in to fight alongside the ruling Taliban and Osama Bin Laden's Al Qaeda. Their number is estimated roughly between 5000 and 15,000. Our sources report another three convoys are behind the first 3000, who crossed the frontier Friday, October 5. They are entering Afghanistan along the ancient Krakoram Road to the Afghan-Pakistani border, through the Kulik Pass of Little Pamir, which is situated in one of the highest and most remote regions of the world. Beijing is deploying this force in two places:

A. Whakyir, the Kirgyz tribal encampment near the Little Pamir-Tadjik frontier, opposite the swelling concentration of US and Russian Special Forces and air strength The Chinese have brought with them Kirgyz fundamentalist militants from the Ferghana Valley of Central Asia, as interpreters. From Whakyir, the Chinese generals believe, with Bin Laden's and the Taliban's tacticians, they will be able to block off the movement of the US-led force from its rallying point in Dzhartygumbez, Tadjikistan, no more than 35 miles from Little Pamir, into the mountains of Hindu Kush.

B. Jalalabad in north Afghanistan, at the foot of the Hindu Kush range. DEBKAfile's Chinese sources reveal that, immediately after the terrorist strikes in the United States on September 11, the Chinese intelligence service, MSS, handed in to the defense ministry in Beijing their estimation that the United States would go to war to overthrow the Taliban regime, for the sake of which it would sign a pact with Russia. The Chinese leadership viewed this eventuality as the most significant shift in the global balance since the 1962 Chinese-Russian feud, with dangerous implications for China's world standing and its interests in Central and Southwest Asia. They decided it must be counteracted.

The only satisfactory outcome of the Bin Laden crisis in Chinese eyes is the redeployment of Japanese-based US troops to the Persian Gulf, when the Kitty Hawk carrier moved the 3rd Marines Division out of Okinawa last week. Chinese intelligence did not miss the absence of fighters and reconnaissance craft on her decks. The planes stayed behind, but the very fact that the Kitty Hawk is no longer within operational range of the Straits of Taiwan leaves the disputed island with diminished protection. Beijing also took note of additional US military movements, including the Army's 10th Mountain Division based at Fort Drum, New York and that of another formerly Pacific-based unit, the 25th Infantry Division, out of Hawaii to the Persian Gulf.

According to DEBKAfile 's Far East experts, the removal of substantial US military strength from the Pacific Rim opened the way for Chinese intervention in Afghanistan and its effort to slow down the US-Russian advance.

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: bill\sables
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:25 PM

Troll, The last thing we need is a beard seeking missile. If one gets out of control I'm right in the shit
Bill

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Gareth
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 06:26 PM

And who, pray, are DEBKAfile 's Far East experts ??

Gareth

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 07:32 PM

In their own words, DEBKAfile's editorial team is led by two experienced foreign correspondents and employs topnotch contributors in the world's hot spots

Hmmm...http://www.debka.com/AboutUS/body_aboutus.html

Subject: RE: Attacks begin
From: GUEST,Chip A.
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 07:56 PM

I read the report on debka.com Never heard of them before. Has anyone else? Has anyone heard of this Chinese troop movement from any collaborative source?

Chip A.