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Attacks begin
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Donuel Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:09 AM ROTFLMAO-PMP-POYP |
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Subject: Mousethief's advice From: GUEST,Johanna Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:02 AM In a message above, Mousethief said: "Boab, please don't respond to obvious trolls! It just makes them happy -- it's what they want. (I don't mean the person called "troll" -- who usually isn't!)" Isn't Mousethief the guy who responds to every obvious troll? ROTFLMAO
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: wysiwyg Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:49 AM PART TWO |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Peg Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:45 AM Just doing my patriotic duty, Doug. Peg ;) |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:38 AM CarolC: I'm pleased that you are having a good day! As to to the author of the "Pledge," troll has it right. (Paraphrasing) "So Bellamy got one thing right!" I'm surprised, Carol, that you didn't point out my "for" error instead of "to." Peg picked up on it immediately, and it delighted me that she knew I had erred. :>) Spaw: Could you design that thing so that it covered cigar smokers too? Wolfgang: What do you feel is the meaning of the split vote in the poll? (East opposed -West for) The country is still divided? If so, I don't suppose that's too surprising is it? I would think it will take a few more generations before the division is compeletly healed ...but just my opinion, of course. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: mousethief Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:47 AM Canada? Canada?? How would you like to have war declared on you by Canada???? Last time the US was in a war with Canada, the US lost. (Just the fact that they gave us back Detroit is enough to make you hate 'em forever!!!) So, how do you deter people who are willing to die? By killing them all before they get a chance to do it themselves? They don't want to die, simpliciter. If that were the case they'd all be dead already. Rather, they are willing to die to take numbers of others along with them. Even Bin Laden looks like a sort of kindly soul... Stalin was called the friend of children and animals, and liked to have photo-ops with schoolrooms of happy children. When the sword falls on the United States, they cry for their children and they cry for their people. That's the very LEAST we could do. We may (as a nation) be wrong for not crying enough for OTHERS. Admitted. But there's nothing wrong about crying for our own. Peace love and democratic socialism to all. And to all a good night! We need a beard-seeking missile. If they make one of those, I'm in deep tahini. Well Sir, who-ever you are, I am like many another ; I do NOT support "reprisals", Boab, please don't respond to obvious trolls! It just makes them happy -- it's what they want. (I don't mean the person called "troll" -- who usually isn't!) Alex |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Peg Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:25 AM DougR: if you are going to quote the Pledge of Allegiance, please do it right. It is not "and FOR the republic," but "TO the republic."
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: GUEST,Kit Kat Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:18 AM I'm not sure what I believe will be the result. If the attacks can destabilise the Taliban, maybe there can be a lasting political solution. Let's just hope it won't provoke wars elsewhere in the Middle East. I feel really sorry for Yvonne Ridley's daughter though. It does not look like Yvonne will be coming home. As a mother of a young daughter myself, I can't understand why she would take such terrible risks with her life. Must try and reset my cookie. Kit Kat |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: sed Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:10 AM Troll, It's only confusing when you start reading the Bible. All is clarified through prayer and further reading. The main point is that we are spirits not flesh, that we serve our creator or we serve the one who he created. Here's something interesting (seemingly unrelated): following from: http://www.pm.gov.uk/news.asp?NewsId=2686 In an interview aired on Al Jazira (Doha, Qatar) television he [Usama Bin Laden] stated: "Our enemy is every American male, whether he is directly fighting us or paying taxes." (So, stop paying taxes and you'll please Osama???) |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Troll Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:55 AM Check out the "Dear Mr. bin Laden" section with the photos. troll |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Whippet Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:37 AM Beard seeking missiles bring up another idea to 'root out' the terrowists. Why not send in a cracker team of British and American barbers and hairdressers to go in and shave off all their hairy faces !! |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Troll Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:18 AM sed, I'll be shot if I can figure out the point of your post. First, you intimate that, as long as our souls are secure, it doesn't matter if the terrorists kill us. THEN, you say that Christ says that he came to sow discord, and last, you talk about charity, not in Christs name, but in the name of the disciples! I'm totally confused. troll |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: sed Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:43 AM Jeri wrote: I don't think there's a solution that won't get people killed. I hope we can hang onto the compassion that makes being human worth it. That sounds about right to me. But what makes more sense to me than anything is a very simple belief in Christ; maybe even the faith of a child in his loving parent. Is our life so valuable that we must kill to sustain/retain it? Most people seem to say yes; but I think about Matthew 10: 28. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Looking to the Bible for answers may seem very quaint and unsophistocated now but I trust these words from the past which depict the future. American/world unity isn't the real issue either: consider Matthew 10:34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. in conclusion: 42. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward. (or just read the whole chapter) |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Wolfgang Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:22 AM There is still an interesting split in Germany: Much more support for the present action in (former) West than in (former) East Germany. The end of a German newspaper commentary from today (speaking my mind) in my translation: Who starts a war (addressing here the USA and Allies) should know a way how to end it. After the war politics has to take over. In short, Plan A, the military aspect, needs as a necessary complement Plan B, for the time after. The first day of the war has to be the first day of planning for peace. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Donuel Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:16 AM Some funny stuff. however... Regarding the Chinese connection here are some findings: From what I have been able to gather in just a few minutes of web-browsing, DEBKA is an Israli based military intelligence reporting news service with a somewhat hawkish Israeli bias. They are a small operation, but have many low-level contacts in various intelligence-sensitive positions around the globe. They are often able to "scoop" the major news services, sometimes by many days. Unfortunately, they often seem to do this by "rushing to print" and consequently often report rumours, anonymous tips, and unsubstantiated information. Here is a short appraisal: http://sg.wired.lycosasia.com/1055496.html I personally found the site fascinating. Nonetheless, we have to carefully evaluate the credibility of what we read there. It is not necessarily all fact. The report of the tactical nuclear weapons is indeed alarming. Downright depressing, too. I suppose their use would be deemed "appropriate" if some horrific biological offense, for example, were made in the U.S. Maybe the idea is to bluff: "If you use biological weapons, we've got these nukes ready for you". However, these guys we're dealing with don't bluff because they just don't give a damn about the consequences. Also alarming, is the report of Chinese troops (estimated between 5,000 & 15,000) moving into Afganistan with Taliban sympathies. The muslim Chinese willing to join a jihad are not the same as Chinese regulars. The Chinese government can play 2 ends against the middle and still be sitting pretty. "Odd" religions are not cherished by Beijing and in fact control of those western provinces is loose to nil. Granted Tibet has been a major interest to them out of suspicion for centuries but the area of China that actually borders Afghanistan (the old silk road) was a border constructed by the British and has less meaning to the residents as you would think. So not to worry about an "official" Chinese entrance into the war. I would not be far from the truth to say that the central Chinese government secretly feels the fewer Chinese muslims the better and the more costly to the US the better. They have nothing to lose except a more stable region to run a pipeline from newly discovered oil fields in western China. These oil fields are about 15% of the ones in Saudi Arabia but significant. This is not to be confused with the oil pipline scheduled to go through Afghanistan and Pakistan. There are various goals among the participants of this conflict not the least of which are again oil. The Wahabbi Islamic fanatics are none the less a tragic complication by bringing the conflict to our homeland. Saudi Arabia is bankrupt and in deficit spending while extreme factions are insisting upon changes they expect to come about as thier oil supply is in decline and new technologies make it more obsolete within the next 50 years. Do realize bin Laden and his family are not ignorant when it comes to oil making the world turn. The Carlisle group is an oil investment company that to this day former president Bush is still a member. So is the bin Laden family. It need not be sinister connection but it exists all the same. My point is, each side of this conflict may have an agenda not officially declared (including Loony Bin Laden) and those interests may be using "pawns" of all sorts to extract desired goals. In the art of war it is said that to defend, your goal is to survive. To attack means you must vanquish. Bin Laden has us on 2 fronts and believes we can be defeated as a nation of influence in his part of the world. I believe he is mistaken since this nation could sustain unbelivable losses and still endure. Our worst case scenario is about 50% casualty to disease and nuclear destruction. Realisticly it is closer to 10%. If you want footnotes you will have to provide them - its after 2 AM!!
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: GUEST,Boab Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:09 AM From "Guest" Oct 7, 03.22 pm-- "Those that do not support the US and the coalition countries in their reprisals-------should be shot for treason".Well Sir, who-ever you are, I am like many another ; I do NOT support "reprisals", unless they can be proven to be constructive in attaining the object of justice. "Reprisals" suggest revenge. Revenge merely propagates further "reprisals" in the opposite direction and perpetuates violence.I wholeheartedly approve actions directed at the elimination of the sources of terrorism. Any such concerted action MUST include the eradication of situations which breed bitterness [the root of terrorism---]. The likelihood of terrorist attack will NEVER end as long as the situation in Palestine [horror of horrors--a naughty word!]is alowed to continue. Many cotributors seem to see things this way; perhaps, "Guest" we should all be at least "half-shot"? |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Haruo Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:35 AM Good to see Karl Marx here; I'd been looking for his email address unsuccessfully so I could invite him to look at the little Advent song the first three lines of which he wrote, in my Esperanto online hymnal. Liland PS If I leave now I can get home in time to catch the 11 pm news. PPS: If anybody has a catchier tune for the Marx Advent ditty, send it to me! |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Big Mick Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:22 AM Listen..................Did you hear that?.................There it is again......Waaaaay out there on the left wing of the conversation..............What the hell is that???.................Let me borrown those binoculars....................OH..............it's OK..........It's just Big Mick ROFLHAO.........You have no idea how much mileage I am going to get out of this information..........LOL. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Troll Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:18 AM Like I've always said, even a blind pig will find an acorn if it roots long enough. It ocurrs to me that even socialists may love their country even if their political theories don't work well. troll *** And no, Carol,I was referring to Mr. Bellamy. At least he did ONE thing right.*** |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: catspaw49 Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:09 AM Get off the floor now Carol.......Try a little harder.......Poor old Doug is probably..........aw, screw it.....I'll join you.....ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!! Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:09 AM Spaw, whats wrong with pipe smokers? John (a Sherlock Holmes fan)! |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: CarolC Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:05 AM (ROTFLMAO!!!!) |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: CarolC Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:01 AM (I'm trying not to gloat. Honest, I am... ) |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: CarolC Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:58 AM Oh, this is almost too much for me!
The one brilliantly bright spot in an otherwise pretty dark and dismal day.
Guess what, DougR... The Pledge of Allegiance was written by a socialist!
Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).
Francis Bellamy in his sermons and lectures and Edward Bellamy in his novels and articles described in detail how the middle class could create a planned economy with political, social and economic equality for all. The government would run a peace time economy similar to our present military industrial complex. click here for the rest. |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Troll Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:54 AM Spoil-sport! 'Course, they'ed get ME both ways. I could shave the beard but the belly...? In the immortal words of Coach Greathouse, "Suck it up, Cupcake!" troll |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: catspaw49 Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:53 AM Ohmygawd..........there goes the entirety of Central Ohio!!!! Columbus was just listed as the 5th fattest city in the United States. (How the hell do they figure that kind of crap anyway? And why? And how much did it cost us for that reasonably worthless information?) I would be happy to donate my time to work with a programmer to develop a Catspaw's "Fockin' Assholes" Seeking Missile. A nice piece of weaponry to rid the world of terrorists, warmongers, xenophobes of all types, not to mention trollers, flamers, white supremacists, insurance salemen, door to door religion peddlers, pipe smokers, etc. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Amos Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:34 AM You have to think about the lessons oif history, here, guys. You know darn well if we develop a beard-seeking missile, they'll develop a fat-seeking missile and it will take out the rest of the folkies including our beloved Spaw plus forty per cent of the nation's population. So let's be a little circumspect here, huh? A |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: catspaw49 Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:25 AM Gone all day today and saw the coverage from a friend's house. Frankly gang, it's nice to be home and here and listen to the 'Cat's poli-sci fights! I too wish we had a lot more time, but this was, as I said from the beginning, inevitable. I think the admin is doing a reasonable job here, but all the emphasis must be placed on "selling: the Muslim world that this is not a holy war. At that, we're not where we need to be. And I agree with our Guest that until the Israel/Palestinian issues are addressed and solved (no mean feat--ain't happened in 50 years) the terrorism will also continue. That's not based on bin Ladens' remarks, but only an opinion based on my lifetime of watching and it's just an opinion. On the beard thing, there'd only be a few of us left in the folkie world, but we'll try to carry on without you!! (:<)) Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: CarolC Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:24 AM That's probably why, CarolC, and L.H., when we pledge allegiance to the flag, we say, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and for the republic for which it stands, ...right? Beats me, DougR. Who wrote that pledge, anyway? |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:16 AM Oh, and Karl ...sorry, you're not my type. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 12:12 AM That's probably why, CarolC, and L.H., when we pledge allegiance to the flag, we say, "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and for the republic for which it stands, ...right? However, I down't question for a minute, CarolC, that you were taught your POV in a university or college. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:29 PM I agree with Karl Marx. |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Paul from Hull Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:19 PM ....& as for your serious point, AGREED... |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Paul from Hull Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:13 PM Ah...I stand corrected! |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: GUEST,Karl Marx Date: 07 Oct 01 - 11:01 PM Don't be silly. Saddam has a Groucho moustache. Always had, and always will. |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Paul from Hull Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:57 PM Hehehehehe... Well, thats a fine beard, Mr Marx... dunno why your your brother groucho just stuuck with that daft Saddam moustache though... |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: GUEST,Karl Marx Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:50 PM There is one concern I have about all of this, all joking aside, and it is this. History does not prove that any 'war on terrorism' has been successful. It is difficult to pinpoint your enemy, for a start. I dont like what potentially could unfold from this. And I dont think that anybody should think that this 'war on terrorism' will be over by Christmas, or that the countries of the coalition forces will come away unscathed. Jingoism is not going to help, here, I'm afraid. |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:37 PM LOL!!! I suspect that had Doug and Karl had a chance to be pub companions they might actually have gotten along rather well...as long as the word "socialism" didn't come up too often. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: GUEST,Karl Marx Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:31 PM Come to my bosom, DougR! |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:26 PM Carol's right, Doug. The USA is a democratic republic which mixes capitalism and socialism, with more of a preponderance toward capitalism than many other democratic republics or constitutional democracies. According to my encyclopedia a republic is: 1. a state not ruled by a monarch or an emperor... 2. a state where power is not directly in the hands of or subject to complete control by the people (!!!) but in the hands of various officials. 3. any regime where the government depends actually or nominally (!) on popular will. So that's what a republic is. Gosh. Obviously some republics are a whole lot more democratic in nature than others! I'm gonna look up "democracy" now. Back in a minute... Okay. Democracy: 1. Pure democracy - In its original sense (from Greece, I presume) a form of government where the right to make political decisions is exercised directly by the whole body of citizens, acting under procedures of majority rule. (Note that this in no way presupposes the existence of political parties or elections as that would just get in the way of the democratic process! And it's probably only possible in communities no larger than a single city...and not a really big city, either.) Direct democracy is what was practiced in most Amerindian communities, and in ancient Greece. 2. representative democracy - a form of government where the citizens exercise the same right, but through chosen representatives. This is known as representative democracy, and is the kind you and I have in the USA and Canada. This is where elections come in, and (but not necessarily) political parties. 3. Liberal or constitutional democracy...this is the same as number 2, with the additional proviso that there must be a constitution with legal restraints upon the behaviour of the majority, which legal restraints secure the rights of minority members, both individual and collective rights. An IMPORTANT development...otherwise the majority could do whatever they bloody well wanted to when they wanted to! Again, we have this in the USA and Canada. (People have found their way around it now and then, as in the case of segregation, or internment of Japanese civilians in WWII...but it's theoretically not supposed to happen.) This is where we get the Bill of Rights, among other things. 4. Social or economic democracy ...a system in which the government, regardless of whether it is democratic or not in the first 3 senses described above, makes a genuine effort to minimize social and economic differences! A graduated income tax, for example is an effort in this direction, as are Medicare and universal education. It is upon this definition that the Communist states called themselves democratic, as they were attempting a social democracy. So... I would say that the USA, while not a pure democracy (not possible...it's too big for that) is an excellent example of a representative, liberal, constitutional democracy and it's also a republic. And it's a rather poor example of a social or economic democracy, though some efforts have been made in that direction. Canada is a slightly better example of a social or economic democracy...and rates about the same as a representative, liberal, constitutional democracy, with some minor differences...some to the favour of the USA, some to the favour of Canada. Cuba is a much poorer example of a liberal, representative, constitutional democracy (they do elect quite a number of officials, but not at the topmost level). However, they are probably the best and most courageous example I have ever seen of a social economic democracy, specially considering that they are coping with a VERY difficult situation, economically speaking, and inherited an utter mess from Batista in 1959. Looking further, it seems that the USA was the FIRST major experiment in constitutional democracy! And this is what Americans can justifiably take pride in. The French took the next big steps in asserting the rights of man, and the British themselves made great strides in adapting their own system into a modern constitutional democracy through peaceful and gradual transition. So...the USA is a liberal, constitutional, democratic republic, utilizing significant amounts of both capitalism and socialism in so being...and yet a society in which "socialism" is more or less a dirty word. Strange. Whew! What a mouthful. :-) People use these words all the time, but do they really know what they mean...or do they just mean "our way of doing things"? I think the Republican Party should change its name to something else, because they are obfuscating the whole issue...given the fact that Democrats are also republicans!!! And Republicans are also democrats!!! Matter of fact, I think they should both change their party names to...well...how about the Elephants and the Donkeys? Or the Tweedles and the Twaddles? Or something like that. We have gotta stop this lazy use of language at the highest levels, if we are ever gonna remember what "democracy" actually is! :-) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Donuel Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:13 PM trucker dave. I have been assured that people from the planet Xenos are Xenophobic and are afraid to meet new people so we have nothing to worry about :-)... |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Shields Folk Date: 07 Oct 01 - 10:09 PM What has Demis Roussos ever done to you? |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Troll Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:59 PM How about dense black beards only? Will that see us safely home? troll |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Paul from Hull Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:56 PM *pssst* John, & Brid Widder too....*G* |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:45 PM Oh & Dorrie as well! |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:43 PM I think quite a few of us could have problems if that beard seeking missile goes wrong, as far as I know the only HUll Catters without beards are Ickle Dorrit and White Dove. |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: Troll Date: 07 Oct 01 - 09:18 PM Re: China sending troops to aid Taliban. I have done a quick search. Nothing from Pakistan, India, or Russia. The Xinhua News Agency has nothing but an article hoping the fighting will soon cease and a speech by the Premier praising the Central Committee for its work in establishing better relations with the US. The Defense Dept. web site gives no mention. troll |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: CarolC Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:47 PM It's not my belief, DougR. It's what they teach in college level courses that categorize political and economic systems.
Capitalism and socialism are economic systems.
Democracy and totalitarianism are political systems.
Our system, according to the way these things are defined in such college level courses, is categorized as a form of "democratic socialism" because we are a democracy, but we employ some socialistic practices, such as social security and medicare. Our system is partially capitalist, and partially socialist.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but my understanding is that there aren't any purely capitalistic countries in the world. As far as being a republic versus being a democracy is concerned, I don't remember that even coming up. But you could probably substitute the word republic for democracy if you want. So in that case, it would be appropriate to say that the US practices a form of republican socialism. Gee... that has a strangely compelling ring to it ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: DougR Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:25 PM That may be your belief, CarolC, but it's not mine. I live in a Republic, not a Democracy and certainly not a Democratic Socialist whatever you want to call it. So you may be my friend, but you can't be my Comrade. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: Attacks begin From: GUEST,truckerdave Date: 07 Oct 01 - 08:13 PM Sounds like debka.com's experts may have some of those fabled degrees in "pschyo-ceramics". I've been watching all the news channels for a month and i've not heard a word about chinese being involved. But then again, there could be a chance of aliens from the planet Xenos becoming involved in the conflict so we ought to be careful. |
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