Singing In Dialect

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: 8_Pints
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM

I remember seeing a sign in a pub in the Lake District that read "English spoken, but Geordie undastood!"

8 pints

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 06:45 PM

My wife, Ferrara, has a good ear for language and *can* manage a Scots song, or German song... without doing them an injustice. I am not nearly as good, so I limit my attempts to using the minimum necessary words to tell the story, and I don't even attempt ones like LJC posted!!

I can sing "The Twa Corbies"...but she can sing "The 51st Highlander's Farewell to Sicily"

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: GUEST,Born Again Scouser
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 07:54 PM

Amusing thread.

Think I'm with Jerry R. on this one. Maybe it's a bit like acting. How much does the accent have to do with the story or the character? The simple answer would be: depends on the plot and the character. Hamlet or Macbeth can be played in English, American, German, Russian, Afro-Caribbean, Japanese or any other accent. Willy Loman, I think, needs to sound like he's from New York.

Some songs, like some plays, have such a strong sense of place and time that you have to address the language in some way. If you can't then perhaps it's best to walk away from the song (or part). But then there are songs like 'Carrickfergus' which name a specific place but are about universal human emotions (in this case, homesickness). Anyone can relate to them and anyone is entitled to sing them.

On the other hand, I read an article in an Irish magazine a few years ago about the Waterboys which talked, amongst other things, about 'dabbling with identities'. Not a good idea. Wish I still had the article.

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM

Fascinating discussion. Somebody should point this one out every time there's another "I hate what the Mudcat has turned into" complaint.

I'm a pretty good mimic, and I love singing "The Lum Hat Wantin' a Croon" in what I hope is pretty close to the Scots accent I heard on the record (National Geographic's Music of Scotland). Now, it's no secret that I'm a Son of Aaron and not a Son of Erin, from Philadelphia and not from Fife, but I have fun doing it, and when I did it on the old HearMe the response was positive, so I don't see any problem at all. Maybe it would be different if somebody were paying to hear me sing, but I think not.

I have to take strong exception to something Malcolm said above: "Singing in a language foreign to you is another matter, of course, and should never be attempted unless you understand that language sufficiently well to conduct a reasonable conversation in it." Sorry, folk police, you're not going to stop me from singing some of my favorite Jacques Brel songs, or "Mayn Rue Platz", or even "Guantanamera"! I would agree that it is good to be respectful of the culture and learn to pronounce the lyrics properly, but I would hate to think I have to pass a test in order to sing a song. And the same would be true for a non-English speaker who wanted to sing a song in English. If they like the song, and if people like hearing them sing the song, why not?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 08:15 PM

By the way, in case anybody's curious, the "Son of Aaron" line was in response to Little John Cameron's post above, and is not the literal truth: despite my last name, I'm not a Kohen.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:04 PM

Singing a song in a language which is foreign to you, and which you do not understand, depends very much on the context in which you do it; done "for a laugh" in an informal situation, I'm sure it's harmless enough.  Done professionally or semi-professionally in front of an audience in a relatively formal situation, you certainly risk giving offence or making yourself look stupid.  Each to his or her own; I am comfortable singing in French, because I know what I'm doing, whereas I do not sing in Gaelic, however much I might like to, because I know very well that I could not do it properly.

I believe that it's all about showing proper respect to a tradition which is not your own.  If that makes me a "folk policeman", then so be it; my own feeling -and these things are always subjective- is that it simply reflects an awareness that music is not necessarily "common property", to which people can do whatever they like without always taking the trouble to find out what it means, but that it does have a meaning, and that the kind of instant gratification which so many people demand ("I can't be bothered finding out what this neat-sounding song actually means, so can you tell me how to pronounce it phonetically", etc.) can sometimes result not from a genuine love of music, but from a kind of acquisitiveness akin to cultural imperialism.

And before anybody says, "opera singers do it all the time"; that is exactly what I mean.

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: ddw
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 09:25 PM

I'm generally against somebody trying to fake and accent or dialect, but there are instances when it's necessary —— particularly in old blues tunes to make the rhyme scheme work.

I ran into one recently that just jumped out at me. There's a Blind Boy Fuller song (also done by Rev. Gary Davis) called "Mama, Let Me Lay It On You" that has the lines:
I'll buy you a Cadillac car
So you can ride tomar'

I picked up a copy of John Cephus & Phil Wiggins covering the song and John sings:
I'll buy you a Cadillac car
So you can ride to-mo-rrow

and it sounds really weird.

All that said, I still don't like to hear gratuitous use of "dese" and "dat" and "ribba" in singing a lot of the fine old songs that were written that way for use in blackface Vaudeville. Most can be sung straight and still hold up.

david

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: John P
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM

Malcolm, do you really think anyone who sings folk songs, even (or especially) folk songs from other countries, is doing it for any reason other than a love of music? Wouldn't it be a lot of bother to learn to play and sing music if you weren't actually into it?

I know a lot of people who do songs from a lot of different places. I do so myself, and have in the past been accused of "cultural plundering", whatever that means. But I don't know anyone who learns traditional music for any reason other than a deep love of traditional music. For me, showing respect for a song involves bringing my best skills to it, finding something interesting to do with it in the hopes that others will like it as well, and performing it with passion and integrity. I am much more a musician than a historian, and certainly don't see learning the history and cultural context of a song as being a necessary part of traditional musicianship. I often, but not always, do quite a bit of research about the songs, but I do this because I find it interesting, not because I want to learn whether or not I "should" do the song, or how I should do it, or what instruments I should play it on, or anything having to do with my treatment of the song.

I also freely adapt songs whenever I feel like it, changing the mode, "fixing" the melody, cleaning up the scansion, etc. The music remains tradtional music.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 11:19 PM

I understand your point, Malcolm, and I agree to a certain extent. It sets my teeth on edge when somebody butchers a song in a foreign language. (It also sets my teeth on edge when somebody butchers a song in his or her native language!) Where I suppose we may continue to disagree is that while I support your right to disapprove, I also support a person's right to sing what he or she wants. If enough people don't like it, the performer will usually get the message, one way or another.

Contrary to what you implied, I believe that traditional music IS common property, and no one has the right to tell anyone how they should or should not enjoy it. Ascribing motives to another person can be tricky: what you feel is a sign of "instant gratification" or "cultural acquisitiveness" might just be simple ignorance, or enthusiasm. (And I believe you did acknowledge that, by using the word "sometimes".) I just get uncomfortable when "I don't like it when you do that" becomes "You should not be allowed to do that." OK, enough soapboxing for me.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:03 AM

I'm trying to make a distinction here between what we do in relative privacy and what we do in the public eye, so to speak, where our actions may influence others.

There is a big difference between the kind of love that respects the loved object and allows it to retain its natural character and identity, and the kind that desires to possess that object, moulding it into something different which suits us and our personal feelings about how it ought to be; this is to interpret the world -and, most particularly, that part of the world to which we do not ourselves belong, and which does not belong to us- purely in terms of ourselves.   I can't help but feel that this kind of solipsism risks destroying the object of love, if it be truly love, rather than mere desire; perhaps sometimes it is best just to look, or listen, and leave well alone.

I'm not suggesting that this is always the case; to an extent, in discussions of this kind, I find myself acting as Devil's Advocate more often than I would like, because I do believe that these things need to be said, and thought about seriously.   I certainly haven't suggested that there should be "prescribed" ways of singing a song, of playing a tune, or of what instruments should or should not be used.  I have said, though, that respect for material from traditions that are not our own demands that, if we wish to use such material, we do it with at least a degree of understanding.  If you change music from somebody else's tradition, outside that tradition, then it is, by definition, no longer traditional; however much you might like it to be.

If you change it with a genuine understanding of its nature and function, then it may well gain a new life in that new form; you may, equally, be able to transform it into something which may find its way into whatever tradition you yourself belong to.  I haven't said that it can't be done; maybe you can do it.  Some people certainly can; many, I fear, are simply not prepared to make the effort to understand what they are dealing with before they start tinkering with it.

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Peg
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:39 AM

gotta agree with Mark here; the world would be a lesser place is this Yank did not sing songs of the Celtic countries...

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 02:15 AM

Nobody, as far as I can see, has mentioned my pet hate; the gawdawful [Americanism!!!] spectacle of a "trained" operatic singer murdering ---in pefectly blissful ignorance---a traditional ballad. It is particularly painful for me when it happens to be a Scots folk-song being attempted by a SCOT whose musical talent has been focussed along the operatic route. Some, to give credit, actually learned to lay their "training" aside and make a good shape at it---Ken McKellar is a case in point; he never could handle a any breadth of Scottish folksinging till he had the experience of sharing a series with Jean Redpath and Alistair Mac Donald. He suddenly realised that there was more to Burns and all Scottish folk music than "My Love is Like a Red, Red Rose" and "Annie Laurie".

Just for the record, and as part of the thread as begun, the finest rendition of Robert Burns' "Bonnie Doon" I have ever heard was performed by Sean Cannon--as Irish as the poteen in Connemara.

There's a muckle brough roon the muin the nicht---an ye ken the spiel aboot a brough roond the muin;'a afaur brough's a near stoarm, a near brough's a faur stoarm. Nae mony yowes i' the brae-face the morn; they'll a' be coorit doon i' the biel o' the knowe. I know fine weel that some among us will understand perfectly.....

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Melani
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM

Well, gee, Boab, I think you're saying something about a ring around the moon portending a storm, and the sheep huddling down in a protected area. But I wouldn't attempt to pronounce any of it. No matter how beautiful a song might be, I personally would not attempt THAT degree of dialect. A word or two thrown into mostly English I can manage. But there are a lot of songs in straight English that I wouldn't attempt, just because they don't seem to "fit" me. I sing a lot of chanteys that were originally sung only by men, and I have found that I have an instinctive feeling about whether a certain song will work for me. If it doesn't feel right, I wouldn't attempt to sing it. I have heard songs that don't "fit" me sung very well by another woman, so I guess it's just really personal.

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 12:53 PM

In my case, I have no choice - I have one of those tape-recorder sets of ears and can only sing songs the way the singer I learned them from sang them. I also have a French accent in German because my teacher did... so I sing most of my songs with a brogue, and a few with a burr, and some like other ethnicities, but at least since I have the chameleon linguist ability, if the model has an authentic accent, so do I. I couldn't sing an Irish ballad in my normal American accent if you paid me.

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:40 AM

Ah---there you go,Melani [as McCloud the New York cowboy polisman was wont to say--] --funny thing, my favourite shanty/sea song is "The Alabama". A belter, as they say in auld Scotland.

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Coyote Breath
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 07:12 AM

Yeah! I came to this late but accenting or dialecting (?) a song is (or should be) like acting. While I write this I am listening to Mike Seeger singing and playing (playing!) in "dialect". He is recreating a specific recording by a specific person and playing a specific instrument in a specific style. I value such a performance because it allows me to know a song in it's original context. As for being entertainment... I don't know. I find it more scholarly in a way. I play stuff and sing stuff as best as I can manage from what I hear. I can't read music, the conflict between the left brain linearity of the notation clashes with the right brain sense of the art in the lyrics, music, and instrumentation. (huh?) anyway I have always been able to (can't avoid it) slip in and out of regional dialect to such a degree that when I speak French I am sometimes taken for an Italian, not a Yank! I have always been concerned that this would mark me as a "phoney" or something but so far no one has ever commentd on it to me. Doncha love these threads!

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: John P
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 08:52 AM

Malcolm, you make some very good points. I don't agree with them, but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong about them. But we have drifted away from the original purview of this thread, or rather we have generalized outward from one aspect of it. Perhaps we ought to get into sometime on a thread specifically devoted to the question of whether or not traditional music retains its traditional nature when played outside of the tradition that spawned it.

As for the dialect question, I really don't care whether or not someone is singing with their own accent, or with an assumed one. All I really care about is if they are doing a good performance. I generally dislike country & western music, but if I hear someone really putting their soul into a song, and playing with skill and integrity, I will sit and listen with rapture. The vitality of the music is what's important. The rest is little stuff, not to be sweated over.

John Peekstok


P.S. Mzzry, you sound like an accent waiting to happen . . .

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: little john cameron
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 09:37 AM

Ah man went intae a bakers shop ane day an' said"Is that a cake or a meringue in yer windae?"The baker replied"Naw, ye're richt,it's a cake!" ljc

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 09:48 AM

ljc: one of my all-time favourite jokes!

Well done

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: Singing In Dialect
From: MorwenEdhelwen1
Date: 20 Apr 11 - 12:37 AM

There's a Jamaican dialect version of "Banana Boat Song" titled "Day Dah Light" or "Day De Light". If I was singing that publicly (in, say, a school assembly, because my classmate invited me to perform onstage). I'd try to sing it as close to the original as possible.(That's mostly because I have a knack for picking up people's accents after a while).