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Origins: Is 'Cruel War' traditional?
DigiTrad:
CRUEL WAR
THE WARFARE IS RAGING
Related threads:
Lyr Req: JOHNNIE, by Land Norris (9)
The Cruel War (7)
Song challenge: Update Cruel War (17)
Help: 'The Cruel War' - a CW period song? (18)
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Subject: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Kathryn Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:38 AM I am doing some research. Is the song "Cruel War" traditional. In the Digitrad, there is no mention and I have no feeling how old the song is. Thanks in advance for your help Kathryn |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Mad Maudlin Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:56 AM Kathryn, her's a blue clicky to one version of the song; it says it's traditional. Good luck with your research! Mad Maudlin |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:57 AM That's CRUEL WAR, for anybody who was wondering; no specific source is named. The DT file has a cryptic note, "last verse from JY", which means nothing to me, though that last verse does look on the face of it like a modern addition. The song itself is traditional, and is probably descended from older, British songs on the same theme. There is an entry at The Traditional Ballad Index:
Girl Volunteer, The [Laws O33]
There is also an Appalachian set of 1916 in the DT: THE WARFARE IS RAGING |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: mousethief Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:22 AM It's very untraditional to have a kind war, if you ask me. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Mac Tattie Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:42 PM No mousethief, I'm afraid I'ts very traditional to have a cruel war. All wars are cruel. cheers. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Genie Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:01 PM I found this song in a discussion of American Civil War songs at a website that, as I recall, was devoted to traditional songs. It may be older than that, but 1860-is would count as "traditional" in my book, even if the author's name were known; the song has been handed down in the folk tradition at least since then. Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Mrrzy Date: 08 Oct 01 - 03:10 PM Mac Tattie, you actually agree with Mousethief, read it again. If it isn't traditional yet it's about to become so. Although, how would you rewrite this one for a war in a country where they sew women shut? If "she's" caught behind the lines there is a very different fate awaiting her... stoning, other things. Would like to see the update, anyone up to the challenge? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: sc Date: 08 Oct 01 - 03:52 PM What? You mean it ain't a 'kind' war if they're droppin' food from the cargo planes while the cruise missles are incomin'? Like a last meal on death row for the innocent convicted by circumstance. We can find a better way! Peace! -sc |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: M.Ted Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:45 PM The Afghanis still play traditional instruments, and still write and perform songs in traditional fashion--they have lots of cruel war songs, some including the details that Mrzzy is so eagerly seeking--There used to be a nice collection on Nonesuch, called AFGHANISTAN but I don't know if it ever made it to CD--anyone know anything about what might be available? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: DougR Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:55 PM Well, sc, you have the floor. What's your suggestion for handling it? Nonesuch. I hadn't thought about that label in years. They produced some great LP's. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: sc Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:19 PM Doug, it ain't in retaliation, nationalism and death. We've been tryin that crap for ten thousand years and gettin nowhere. The answer is rather obvious and it ain't found in hoarding wealth as an individual or a nation and having to fight and kill and get killed trying to protect it. It is found in Love. Love spoke to us a couple of thousand years ago about forsaking possesions, peace, turning the other cheek as well as the alternative - living and dying by the sword. Peace! -sc |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: mousethief Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:03 PM Thank you, Mrrz. I was having a hard time knowing what to say in rebuttal. :) Alex |
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Subject: Origins: Cruel War / Girl Volunteer From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:24 PM I think I'd include the text from the Traditional Ballad Index. Hey, you guys, please remember that music threads are considered sacred around here - moving them into "BS" ain't kosher. -Joe Offer- Girl Volunteer, The (The Cruel War Is Raging) [Laws O33]DESCRIPTION: (Johnny) has been ordered off to war. His sweetheart begs to go with him. He refuses her; military service would fade her beauty. She offers to buy his release; this too fails. (In some versions Johnny relents and allows her to come.)AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1914 (Brown) KEYWORDS: war soldier separation love cross-dressing FOUND IN: US(Ap,SE,So) REFERENCES (13 citations): Laws O33, "The Girl Volunteer" Belden, pp. 177-180, "Lisbon" (3 texts, of which this is the third, to which Belden does not assign a letter; the first two are "William and Nancy (I) (Lisbon; Men's Clothing I'll Put On I)" [Laws N8]) Randolph 44, "Johnny Must Fight" (2 texts, 2 tunes) Randolph/Cohen, pp. 94-95, "Johnny Must Fight" (1 text, 1 tune -- Randolph's 44B) BrownII 100, "The Girl Volunteer" (1 text) BrownSchinhanIV 100, "The Girl Volunteer" (2 excerpts, 2 tunes) Owens-2ed, pp. 77-78, "I Was Standing on Pickets" (1 text, 1 tune) SharpAp 113, "The Warfare is Raging" (2 texts, 2 tunes) Combs/Wilgus 109, pp. 178-179, "I'm Going to Join the Army" (1 text) Fuson, p. 104, "Johnny" (1 text) Silber-FSWB, p. 272, "The Cruel War Is Raging" (1 text) Darling-NAS, pp. 131-132, "May I Go With You, Johnny?" (1 text) DT 487, CRUELWAR* CRUELWR2* Roud #401 RECORDINGS: Louise Foreacre, "The War Is A-Raging" (on Stonemans01) Aunt Polly Joines, "The Warfare is A-Raging" (on Persis1) Pete Steele, "The War Is A-Ragin' For Johnny" (on PSteele01) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "The Manchester Angel" cf. "Jack Monroe" [Laws N7] cf. "William and Nancy (I) (Lisbon; Men's Clothing I'll Put On I)" [Laws N8] cf. "The Banks of the Nile (Men's Clothing I'll Put On II)" [Laws N9] cf. "High Germany (I)" cf. "Oh! No, No" (theme: sweetheart tries to convince soldier to let her accompany him) ALTERNATE TITLES: The Cruel War NOTES: The Combs version of this song contains a reference to Pensacola -- the port from which many American troops set out for Cuba during the Spanish-American war (1898). The song is clearly much older than that, however. - RBW Last updated in version 3.5 File: LO33 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2016 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
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Subject: ADD: The Gory Profession From: Stewie Date: 08 Oct 01 - 07:45 PM The following masterly piece of political verse was posted by Jack Campin to the rec.music.folk newsgroup. The more things change ... 'This was published in a Scottish Chartist pamphlet in 1839. Anonymously because people were getting long prison stretches for expressing ideas like this'.
The Gory Profession
The tune is "Fy let us a' to the bridal":
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: GUEST,Genie Date: 08 Oct 01 - 09:23 PM Apparently, the Civil War song I saw listed as "The Cruel War" is a different song, called "The Cruel War is Raging." Here are a couple of links to Civil War songs, including that one: |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Haruo Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:09 PM Konisi gaku Esperanto version will soon be on my website, similar to PP&M. Genie, from your last comment I'm not sure what you mean. Different from what? (I think of "The Cruel War is Raging" as the "normative" version of "The Cruel War", though all the versions mentioned on this thread seem to be relatives. Liland |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Sandy Paton Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:02 PM There are two traditional versions of "The Cruel War is Raging" on Folk-Legacy. The first was recorded for us back in 1962 by Fleming Brown and is available as a custom cassette (C-4). The other was recorded by Sarah Ogan Gunning, half-sister of the famous Aunt Molly Jackson, a traditional singer from the Kentucky coal fields. She called her version of the song "May I Go With You, Johnny" and it, too, may be heard on a custom cassette of her album (C-28) which was titled Girl of Constant Sorrow (a song which she wrote, based, of course, on the older "Man of Constant Sorrow"). Look for either recording under "custom" on the Folk-Legacy web site: www.folklegacy.com. Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Genie Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:49 AM Liland, I found a website that had Civil War Songs and had the lyrics to "The Cruel War is Raging," a song quite different from the one referred to above (one version by Peter, Paul, and Mary). I thought I had posted two links to the song and Civil War song websites, but it looks like it did not work, and I cannot, for the life of me find the sites again. The search engines I try (e.g., "google" and "about.com") keep coming up with everything about the Civil War and about "songs" except that song or the pages I found before. Anyway, it is a different song. Maybe someone else will find it before I do. Genie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Genie Date: 09 Oct 01 - 02:54 AM I found the links. Trying it again ...
When this Cruel War Is Over - already in DT^^^ |
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Subject: ADD: Answer to When This Cruel War Is Over From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:04 AM Genie's second link led to the American Memory Collection of the Library of Congress. On this page (click) there was an answer to "When This Cruel War Is Over." -Joe Offer ANSWER TO WHEN THIS CRUEL WAR IS OVER Sold by R. H. SINGLETON, Bookseller, Stationer, and Periodical Dealer, Post Office Building, Nashville, Tenn. Sent to any address by mail, on receipt of Five Cents. Words by EDNOR ROSSITER, Music by B. FRANK WALTERS. The music can be had of LEE & WALKER, 722 Chestnut Street, Philadelphia. I remember the hour when sadly we parted, The tears on your pale cheeks glist'ning like dew; When clasped in your arms, almost broken hearted, I swore by the bright sky I'd ever be true. True to the love that nothing could sever, And true to the flag of my country forever. CHORUS. Then weep not, love, oh! weep not, Think not hopes are vain, For when this fatal war is over, We will surely meet again. Oh, let not my own love, the summer winds winging Their sweet laden zephyrs o'er land and sea, Bring aught to your heart with the Autumn birds singing, But hopes for the future, and bright dreams of me: For while in your pure heart my mem'ry you're keeping, I ne'er can be lonely while waking or sleeping. CHORUS--Then weep not, love, &c. But if, while the loud shouts of vict'ry are ringing O'er the land that foul traitors have sought to betray, You hear o'er the voices so joyfully singing, That he who so loved you has fallen in the fray, Oh, think that he's gone where there's dark treason never, Where tears and sad partings are banished forever. CHORUS--Then weep not, love, &c. A large variety of BOOKS, MAGAZINES, NEWSPAPERS, MAPS, STATIONERY, PORTFOLIOS, PHOTOGRAPHIC ALBUMS, and everything in the line always on hand. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Kathryn Date: 12 Oct 01 - 03:35 AM ok, so if I understand it correctly, "The Cruel War is Raging," which is the song I am discussing (sorry, I don't know what came over me... It never occurred to me that there would be so many songs with the same type of title....) is traditional. Thanks for all your help Kathryn |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Tom French Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:33 PM Cecil Sharpe in song collecting trips to the Southern Appalachians in 1917 - 1919 collected several variants of the Cruel War. They can be found in his book "English Folksongs in the Southern Appalachians." Variants of the song are also found in the British Isles as the theme existed far earlier than colonial America. A search for the origins should begin with the song in Ireland, Scotland, England, or Wales. There are no doubt Europeon continental variants as well, but the American version is likely drawn from British Isles variants. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: masato sakurai Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:22 PM Sharp's version of "The Warfare Is Raging" is in the DT, linked to by Malcolm Douglas above. It's strange there's no mention of Sharp in the Traditional Ballad Index or Malcolm Laws, Jr.'s American Balladry from British Broadsides (Laws O33: The Girl Volunteer). That the theme is old is well exemplified in Dianne Duggaw's Warrior Women and Popular Balladry 1650-1850 (Cambridge UP, 1989). It may have been more appropriate to ask, "How traditional 'The Cruel War'?". ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Reiver 2 Date: 13 Oct 01 - 08:09 PM Well, this has been an education for me. When I started looking through this thread I thought the song in question was "Cruel War" which Peter, Paul and Mary sang on what I think was their first album. CRUEL WAR "The cruel war is raging, Johnny has to fight; I want to be with him from morning 'till night, I want to be with him, it grieves my heart so... Won't you let me go with you?" "No, my love, no." "Tomorrow is Sunday, Monday is the day That your captain will call you and you must obey. Your captain will call you, it grieves my heart so... Won't you let me go with you?" "No, my love, no." "I'll tie back my hair, men's clothing I'll put on. I'll pass as your comrade as we march along... I'll pass as your comrade, no one will ever know, Won't you let me go with you?" "No, my love, no." "Oh, Johnny, oh, Johnny, I feel you are unkind, I love you better than all of mankind... I love you far better than words can e'er express. Won't you let me go with you?" "Yes, my love, yes." Does anyone know anything about this song. Does it have any tradition? I've read that there were women who served in the American Civil War dressed as and pretending to be men. My old 33 1/3 record gives the name of the song and under it is (Yarrow, Stookey). I don't know if that is an indication they wrote this version, or just that it's their arrangement. It's a lovely song in a minor key. Does it have any relationship to the song you've been talking about on this thread? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Reiver 2 Date: 13 Oct 01 - 08:36 PM Oh, rats! I'd neglected to click on Mad Maudlin's "blue clicky thing", before that last post. It answers some of my questions. The version Mad has is pretty close to the PP&M version. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 13 Oct 01 - 08:46 PM You have just quoted the precise text in the DT (see my first link above, which I provided for a reason) apart from the final verse given there, about which I expressed doubts. PP&M's copyright claims from that period (and those of many other similar revival performers) are very often, to say the least, misleading; they may perhaps have altered a few words, but they certainly did not write the song. Your question has already been answered, I think. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: artbrooks Date: 14 Oct 01 - 07:09 PM "Sing Out" [reprint Vol. 8] says that it is a "trad". Their version references the singing of Peggy Seegar, and says that it based on a trad' Library of Congress recording by Vance Randolph and sung by Charles Ingenthron of Walnut shade Missouri. A search at the Library of Congress Click Here might be useful. {If I did the link right...} |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: masato sakurai Date: 14 Oct 01 - 10:25 PM The Peggy Seeger version of "The Cruel War Is Raging" is also in Folk Songs of Peggy Seeger (Oak, 1964, p. 19). No mention of the source. It includes this as verse 4:
Your waist is too slender, your fingers are too small,
"The Cruel War Is Raging" sung by Charles Ingernthron, Walnut Shade, Mo., Sept. 7, 1940, is in ANGLO-AMERICAN SONGS AND BALLADS (AFS L 20), recorded in various parts of U.S. by several collectors, 1938-46. Edited by Duncan Emrich (CLICK HERE). It is transcribed with music in Vance Randolph, Ozark Folksongs, edited & abridged by Norm Cohen (University of Illinois Press, 1982, pp. 94-95), the title being "Johnny Must Fight". ~Masato |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: GUEST Date: 02 Sep 10 - 11:18 AM It is a traditional song from England. It is older than the civil war of the Americas. They get confused in the United States and borrow from other people's history and unknowingly think it is theirs. The cruel war is raging, Johnny has to fight I long to be with him from morning 'till night I want to be with him, it grieves my heart so Won't you let me come with you? No, my love, no. Tomorrow is Sunday, Monday is the day That your captain will call you and you must obey Your captain will call you, it grieves my heart so Won't you let me come with you? No, my love, no. I'll tie back my hair, men's clothing I'll put on I'll pass for your comrade as we march along I'll pass for your comrade, no one will ever know Won't you let me come with you? No, my love, no. Oh Johnny, oh Johnny, I feel you are unkind I love you far better than all of mankind I love you far better than words can e'er express Won't you let me come with you? Yes, my love, yes. They marched into battle, she never left his side 'Til a bullet shell struck her and love was denied A bullet shell struck her, tears came to Johnny's eyes As he knelt down beside her, she silently died. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Desert Dancer Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:51 PM O redundant Guest, you make me miss Malcolm Douglas very much. ~ Becky in Long Beach |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Steve Gardham Date: 02 Sep 10 - 03:58 PM This series of songs was a mishmash long before it got across the pond. The main stock of stanzas utilised appear in at least a dozen broadside ballads in some form or other, and about half of these entered oral tradition. The broadside hacks used the stanzas willy nilly for this popular theme of the camp follower. By the main stock I mean 2 & 3 in the guest posting along with about 3 or 4 others, oh and Masato's stanza. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: GUEST Date: 02 Sep 10 - 05:11 PM It's called the Atlantic it's not a pond. The Atlantic Ocean is the second-largest of the world's oceanic divisions. With a total area of about 106,400,000 square kilometres (41,100,000 sq mi), it covers approximately twenty percent of the Earth's surface. The song gives away its origin by the word phrase in. 1500 to 1800, the bullet. the lead ball is called a bullet. The Matchlock musket balls are called bullets. And the original bullets were metallic or stone balls used in a sling as a weapon and for hunting. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: GUEST,Philip Davidson Date: 02 Sep 10 - 09:01 PM As pretty Polly Oliver lay musing in bed A comical fancy came into her head Nor father nor mother shall make me false prove I'll list for a soldier and follow my love. The drums they did rattle and the trumpets did blow With heart all a-tremble into battle she did go Her lover was wounded and fell by her side But knew her and squeezed her dear hand before he died. And as she sat crying beside his cold corpse The General rode up to her riding on a white horse Then Polly ups and says to him, though mortal afraid "Oh Sir, I'm no soldier lad, I'm nothing but a maid." Now seeing as her lover was gone from this life He kissed her full kindly and did make her his wife Now Polly is a lady and never knows care But lives in contentment with a thousand pounds a year. ;-) Traditional English and British music. Quite often you will hear people from the United States laying claim to traditional English music. Irish music is often referred to as Irish music in the United States. But English music is often referred to as coming from the United States even though it obviously does not. I don't quite understand that I think it is because the English, don't much care so do not make a song and dance about it so to speak they do not make a fuss. They are to be honest extremely tolerant people. And besides they have more than enough history to share. http://www.ukmagic.co.uk/songs_england.htm http://www.contemplator.com/tunebook/england.htm |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: artbrooks Date: 02 Sep 10 - 09:21 PM @GUEST 5:11 PM: FYI, the round or pointy-ended thing that comes out of the long skinny part with the hole in the end is still called a bullet. @Philip: there is a lot of traditional American (US) music that was originally English or Scottish. That fact that it came over with immigrants some years ago really doesn't mean that it is still English music. In many cases it has changed a great deal, in others, not so much. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: pavane Date: 03 Sep 10 - 08:33 AM And a lot of English music is called Irish, in the USA and elsewhere |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 03 Sep 10 - 02:21 PM It's an odd thing, and we probably should get our physicists - those who love to discuss the uncertainty principle and Schrodinger's cat -in on this. The 'thing' is that American music so dominates the world that it's come to be a royal pain in the ***. I've been forced to listen to crummy American pop in Iceland, in Paris, and in Prague. Look for 'gypsy music' on YouTube, and you will hear American jazz on traditional instruments. Yet despite this hegemony, NO AMERICAN EVER ACTUALLY WROTE ANYTHING. Ask a Scotsman, and he will claim everything is Scottish. Ask a Brit, and it's British. Ask an Irishman, and it's Irish. Baffling! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: GUEST,Philip Davidson Date: 03 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM Americano There are 35 sovereign states in the Americas, 23 in North America and 12 in South America. When you say America you mean the United States of America. It's a young country they do not understand where they live yet. It's a bit like calling England Europe when England is England and not Europe as there are many other countries in Europe and the Americas. So you wrote Scotland Ireland and the Brits? Do you mean England? United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland they are separate places they are not the same as English. Scotland is Scotland. Ireland is Ireland. England is England. The English are called the English not the British please think about what you are writing. Definition: The official right to belong to a particular country. English Definition the English the people of England. British Definition: British of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. I very much doubt that you come from Iceland when you don't understand that the English are English. This is beginning to take on a nasty prejudice bitterness. Music is for sharing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEy-tPyy-vw I like J-pop simple bubblegum music uncomplicated and very nice.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TzwNUQKhnA |
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Subject: ADD Version: The Warfare Is A-Raging From: Joe Offer Date: 28 Aug 17 - 02:38 AM I found a 1968 Folkways recording of "The Warfare Is A-Raging" by Aunt Polly Joines:
Here are the lyrics from the album notes: Band 10. 'The Warfare Is A-Raging" : sung by Aunt Polly Joines THE WARFARE IS A-RAGING The war is a-raging and Johnny you must fight I long to be with you from morning till night. I'll cut off my hair, and men's clothing I'll put on I'll go marching by your side, as you go marching on As you go marching on, that 's what grieves my heart so Oh may I go with you, No my love no. Your waist it's too slender, your fingers they 're too small Your cheeks too red and rosy to face the cannonball. I know my waist is slender, my fingers they're too small But it never makes me tremble to see ten thousand fall To see ten thousand fall, that's what grieves my heart so Oh may I go with you, No my love no. NOTES: Sharp 11 113. While this song is based on the same theme as the ballad "Ho Lilly Ho", all of the versions collected lack narrative content. Instead they are all emotive elaborations on the problem set forth in the ballads of this theme family The scale is pentatonic (f#); range: plagal; structure: ab(ab) the 2nd (ab) present only with the 2nd and 4th verses; meter: 2/ 2. Detailed technical analysis cannot begin to describe the remarkable musical sensitivity that is still conveyed by this 85-year-old woman. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 28 Aug 17 - 02:56 AM we will build a wall round our folk music, and the Mexicans will pay for it. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Is 'Cruel War' traditional? From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 28 Aug 17 - 06:29 AM I've always thought the woman could have had her way a lot quicker, if only she had ended the third line of the first stanza with something rhyming with "yes" instead of with "no". |
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