BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism

Subject: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Max Tone
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 07:52 PM

One Man's Terrorist is another's Freedom Fighter. Re-action always FOLLOWS some action. Throughout history, fights have emerged over Economics, Territory, Religion, Military clout and many other factors that leave festering sores.

This is a thread to discuss the Economic roots of these Reactions, just or unjust, past and present.

The Theological roots are discussed in a separate thread, Here

Military, territorial and political roots are the stuff of history, but in present terms, the attack on the Pentagon is probably much easier for US citizens to understand, than the WTC guided missiles.

I got shot down on another thread for asserting that the US (I should have said Global Economy) had it coming for "Exporting its Ideals" to undefended citizens of third world countries, and would like to help to see some understanding of how all this came to be............

All of us in the "Western" world have to accept some blame. Introducing religion, money, external culture, mining, diseases, etc. to innocent parties causes untold miseries that global capitalism ignores.
A recent "Scotsman" article bravely apportioned the blame for the beginnings of the Global Economy on two Scotsmen -- Jardine & Matheson - so we're not blameless here, either.

The US, however, rightly or wrongly, is seen as the epitome of aggressive exporting of "The freedom to make money", which the "British Empire" prided itself upon in earlier centuries. It has thence now become the central target for the general Anti-Western fanatics to steer the focus of their rhetoric, aimed at gullible supporters/slaves. You won't see Bin Liner flying a plane!

The UK government would rather resign, than EVER admit that the present NI "Troubles" are as much a product of an Economic (and violent) invasion of Ulster by "Planted" protestant "Settlers",(post Battle of the Boyne, 1690, where William of Orange gained supremacy) as they are of the accepted festering Proddy/Fenian divide that they love to foster.

The only reason the US has not recently suffered the same sort of internal terrorism, is because they wiped out the majority of any potential dissenters, then herded the remainder into reservations..........

Global Capitalism STEALS -- something -- from any one/country it touches, who has no control, democratic or otherwise, over its effect.

Discuss -- in my absence -- I may not be back on-line until the 15th -- "Both Sides of the Tweed" festival in Innerleithen beckons. 'Catters welcome.

Rob

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 08:34 PM

They want all JEWS DEAD along with their allies and WE WANT THE OIL. bin Laden hopes to rule the house of Saudi Arabia. Bush hopes to kill all terrorists and secure Afghanistan and Pakistan for an oil piplene. Terrorist attacks on US soil only mucks up the process further.

The economic basis can be found in this official government document.

http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa48119.000/hfa48119_0.HTM#30

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Amos
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 09:52 PM

An excerpt from a top executive of Unocal:

The key question then is how the energy resources of Central Asia can be made available to nearby Asian markets. There are two possible solutions, with several variations. One option is to go east across China, but this would mean constructing a pipeline of more than 3,000 kilometers just to reach Central China. In addition, there would have to be a 2,000-kilometer connection to reach the main population centers along the coast. The question then is what will be the cost of transporting oil through this pipeline, and what would be the netback which the producers would receive.

For those who are not familiar with the terminology, the netback is the price which the producer receives for his oil or gas at the wellhead after all the transportation costs have been deducted. So it's the price he receives for the oil he produces at the wellhead.

The second option is to build a pipeline south from Central Asia to the Indian Ocean. One obvious route south would cross Iran, but this is foreclosed for American companies because of U.S. sanctions legislation. The only other possible route is across Afghanistan, which has of course its own unique challenges. The country has been involved in bitter warfare for almost two decades, and is still divided by civil war. From the outset, we have made it clear that construction of the pipeline we have proposed across Afghanistan could not begin until a recognized government is in place that has the confidence of governments, lenders, and our company.

Mr. Chairman, as you know, we have worked very closely with the University of Nebraska at Omaha in developing a training program for Afghanistan which will be open to both men and women, and which will operate in both parts of the country, the north and south.

Unocal foresees a pipeline which would become part of a regional system that will gather oil from existing pipeline infrastructure in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Russia. The 1,040-mile long oil pipeline would extend south through Afghanistan to an export terminal that would be constructed on the Pakistan coast. This 42-inch diameter pipeline will have a shipping capacity of one million barrels of oil per day. The estimated cost of the project, which is similar in scope to the trans-Alaska pipeline, is about $2.5 billion.

Given the plentiful natural gas supplies of Central Asia, our aim is to link gas resources with the nearest viable markets. This is basic for the commercial viability of any gas project. But these projects also face geopolitical challenges. Unocal and the Turkish company Koc Holding are interested in bringing competitive gas supplies to Turkey. The proposed Eurasia natural gas pipeline would transport gas from Turkmenistan directly across the Caspian Sea through Azerbaijan and Georgia to Turkey. Of course the demarcation of the Caspian remains an issue.

Last October, the Central Asia Gas Pipeline Consortium, called CentGas, in which Unocal holds an interest, was formed to develop a gas pipeline which will link Turkmenistan's vast Dauletabad gas field with markets in Pakistan and possibly India. The proposed 790-mile pipeline will open up new markets for this gas, traveling from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Multan in Pakistan. The proposed extension would move gas on to New Delhi, where it would connect with an existing pipeline. As with the proposed Central Asia oil pipeline, CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally recognized Afghanistan Government is in place.

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Max Tone
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 01:50 PM

Document here

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:36 PM

I am always bewildered as to why certain people assume that any sort of economic development is evil, and therefore resented by the masses--this sort of thing creates wealth, and many if not most in the third world figure that an association with the US is the best way to assure that they get a share of the wealth--

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Max Tone
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:41 PM

Thanks, Donuel and Amos.
Chilling stuff. I might have guessed that there was an ulterior motive........again. Blair's talking about "Saving" the Congo, too.
When will we ever learn that this sort of transparent behaviour, wrapped up in philanthropic gestures, is what gets folk all over the world real mad.........an' then they hit back. The rest of the economic roots pale into insignificance, beside this.
It got me so angry that a song came out on the subject. The Hypocritical Song

The link in the message above is to Amos's Government Document.

Rob

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: DougR
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 02:48 PM

Geeze. You liberal folks are certainly a unhappy bunch!

M.Ted: right on.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 03:06 PM

I can see why the folks in Turkemenistan and Afghanistan would be angry, DougR, that pipeline would bring a lot of jobs in money into their economically depressed region--No wonder Max Tone is chilled to the bone!! (sorry about that one, Max) All sarcasm aside, social unrest and instability thrive in unstable economies--people who need social unrest and instability to achieve their own objectives hate anything that builds the economy up--

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: GUEST,Max Weber
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 03:20 PM

It is curious to note, as people have already pointed out elsewhere, that many of those active in terrorism are the beneficiaries of capitalistic developments. That's where Bin Laden's fund came from. Also, a lot of the people involved in the recent attacks came from middle-class families. Poverty may breed discontent, but it is often the well-off ideological radicals who lead the charge.

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Max Tone
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 03:35 PM

All too true, folks, but it's the West's arrogance in assuming that "We know what's good for them" that is the very thing that gets folks' backs up, whether we're exporting aid, secularism, religion, desire (and need) for money, or "The American Dream".
Whichever way we dress up our "Help" for the third world, there's always an ulterior motive, and a resultant 'pecking order', depending upon the intended 'recipient' of our largesse's possesion of resources, minerals, cheap labour, etc.
Rob

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 07:04 PM

The West is no more arrogant than anybody else--and Westerners, and particularly Americans, tend to bend over backwards when addressing the needs and concerns of those from the rest of the world--Look no further than the widespread efforts to protect resident Middle Eastern/Central Asians from misplaced anger about the 9/11 incidents--

And we hardly created the need for money or the desire for material goods--and unless I am severely misinformed, the the religion that we supposedly "export" is a Middle Eastern religion, created and proselytized just a camel ride away from the birthplace of Islam--and how is it that we are pushing both religion and secularism? It seems like that would have to be a "one or the other" deal-

This "Mea Culpa" stuff, requiring that we, particularly Americans, feel guilty about our perceived affluence, that we be ashamed of our generosity--well, that is total bull--Finally, for better or worse, the rest of the world's economies are tied to ours--When we do well, it opens opportunities for everyone else, and if our economy falters, other have a harder time--Charity is important, it takes care of those who are suffering, disadvantaged, and incapable, but most of the effort should go into taking care of our own business, because this is what takes care of everyone else--

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 03:24 AM

Max Weber (kind of familiar name): Poverty may breed discontent, but it is often the well-off ideological radicals who lead the charge.

This observation was also true for the about three dozen men and women of the German 'Red Army Faction' terrorists of the '70s and '80s. Perhaps two or three of them came from a 'proletarian' background, the other from 'good parents'. And many of them (too many to be explainable by chance alone given the absolutely small number of such families) came from protestant pastors' families. Which again leads to the theological roots of terrorism but I respect the wish to keep separate what sometimes in a surprising way is entangled.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Max Tone
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:44 AM

I totally agree, Wolfgang.
The roots come from many different sources, but economics and religion are vying for first place, and are often entwined. I've no problem with discussion of the theological side here, 'cos it can't be avoided, and is always relevant.

It just seemed sensible to point folk to the existing thread on the subject, when I started this one.........

A good example from history is the build-up to the Reformation in Scotland in 1560. Whilst desire for a more open and accountable religion was one of the prime factors in decrying idolatry, the other was MONEY.

The annual income to the Exchequer (i.e. the Crown) in those day was a mere £40,000 Scots, whilst the church pulled in a whopping £400,000, much of it spent on themselves.

Rob

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: LR Mole
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 08:23 AM

Well, OK. Mankind has always been short of saints, of whatever denomination. But two human constants are greed and oversimplification. The closer a person grows toward wisdom, the further away the need for "stuff" (though we have to pass through a time of stuff-ownership to realize this.)In "Cool Hand Luke" the warden and Luke have an interchange that sums it all up for me:
"Cut the heads off parkin' meters? What'd you think that was gonna get ya?"
"I guess you could say I wasn't thinkin', Cap'n."

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:12 PM

MTed: Hear! Hear!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:46 PM

I submit ithat if there were a benevolent (meaning wishing well toward the citizens) government in Afghanistan, and we took the trouble to export our best productgs -- the Small Business Administration, the venture capital model, the belief in accomplishment, the general respect for a free market bounded by a code of conduct, some kind of balance between enterprise, profit and law, and so on...the motivations for terrorism would fade very quickly as individuals began to discover a better path toward survival.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:04 PM

Venture Capitalism is the result of a specific, western mode of thought. It works for me in the realm of developing and exploiting the resources of an area. It falls flat for me in the realms of distribution of wealth, fostering of human capital and stewardship of natural resources.

There are lot's of arguments for it and agin it, but whether or not we like it is beside the point. There is little chance that it is a mode of thought that will be embraced by fundamentalist Muslims. Our choice is to eliminate them, either by force of arms or by discrediting them to the point where their power base is depleted enough to make them irrelevant.

It is not about faith, it is not about good or bad, and it is not about right or wrong. It is about power. Can we - through either military intervention or economic influence - achieve real power in that area of the world? I guess we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:37 PM

Amos makes a good point over all--and that is that we should teach developing communities how to use economic, growth, and development models--Buckminster Fuller's ideas ought to be seriously reviewed, because he was one of the few who thought about teaching people to create their own appropriate social, economic, and technological models--

Bartholomew is wrong about venture capitalism--the models are very old, with roots in ancient Phonecia(guess where that is!!) and they were restored, particularly financial and trading models, into European culture by way of contact with the Middle East that came about through the Crusades--for that matter, even the physical design of our Malls is rooted the designs of the street markets and bazaars that are still an important part of commerce in Middle Eastern cultures--International trading--the trade routes, was the root of islamic culture, and the primary vehicle for dissemination of Islam--capitalism and trade are not foreign ideas--

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:59 PM

Bingo, Sir Ted: Bucky Fuller meets Al'j'i'bra! That's the ticket!

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Max Tone
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 08:13 PM

A Uk TV documentary tonight on the plight and vociferous protests of Bolivian farmers who've been growing Coca leaves for their own medicinal/social uses for centuries, centred on their protests against US funded military eradication enforcement against traditional growers.

The spokesmen rounded on the US's training of the indigenous population's "Added Value" skills/potential, which gave great benefit to the struggling economy, leading to a gearing up of production and improving rural economy.

Now they burn them out of house, home and factory.

Hypocricy, Double Standards and GREED spring to mind.

Rob

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: Troll
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:04 PM

Did the program say that the US Govt. taught the farmers to grow coca in comercial quantities? Or did the US simply teach them better farming methods which they then applied to coca production?
I rather think the latter is the case. To blame the US in this case is akin to blaming the General Accounting Office because an employee steals a few million using computer techniques he learned on the job.
Ya gotta blame somebody and they're handy. I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: DougR
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 12:14 AM

Well, troll, perceptually, you probably are.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: DougR
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 12:16 AM

Whatta ya looking for, troll? A level playing field? That's the trouble with folks that think like you!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 01:43 AM

Well, I don't see where it makes any particular sense to talk about "economic roots of terrorism," as if "terrorism" were some kind of monolithic movement and not a tactic that very different groups use for very different purposes. I think bin Laden has a lot more in common with our own Charlie Manson that (say) Palestinians who often lash out from well-founded despair.

Also, to say the West is at fault for "exporting aid, secularism, or religion" etc. etc. is just a bit silly. Like saying we caused all the world's problems simply by being us.

But come on, Doug and troll! "Economic development" only helps people that it helps. Just to mention one example, oil production does not help the Nigerians and Azeris, who live near the oil fields which made the Bushes and Cheneys of this world rich, and cannot even get heating oil or gasoline for their own use. Whose land is being destroyed by oil companies, so that they can't gro crops. Who (the Nigerians) are reduced to stealing oil, and frequently blow themselves up in the process. Who are shot down, with the connivance of BP, when they protest. Who don't turn to terrorism, because they could never afford a gun. And gee, what about people who live near gold mines, and get to absorb all that wonderful mercury and cyanide (which I'm sure you, like the mining companies, will assure us is Good For You)? It isn't really necessary to heap up examples. There must be some undeveloped countries where ordinary people benefit from the presence of American business persons. But I can't think of any, right off the top of my head.

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: DougR
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 02:25 AM

Toad:"Economic development only helps people that it helps." Makes sense to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:39 AM

Toadfrog, You mean suffering at the hands of American businesses like British Petroleum (BP)? And note that the Bushes made their money from Texas oil, not Nigerian or Azeri oil, except for "W", whose oil ventures didn't work out, and made his money in baseball--and now curse you, for making me defend the Bushes! As DougR must remember, I am not really the greatest fan of the Bush family--

In "underdeveloped" countries, the ordinary people do benefit from the influx of cash that trade (though not just with the US) brings them--It is certainly true that the wealth gets distributed more equitably in some countries than others, (it gets distributed much better in the US than in, say, the Arab oil countries) but it is a stretch to blame us for economic inequalities in countries that don't do things the way we do--Still, trade brings money, which does trickle down--not as much as we'd like, but things get worse in every way when we stop trading with countries because we don't like their human rights records--

Personally, I am a bit troubled when I see members of the wealthy 5% of certain Middle Eastern nations in London, gambling, drinking, and frolicking in other ways that are forbidden by the strict Koranic Laws back home, while other of their kindred are back home, dressed in rags, and making a living by begging and culling trash in the City of the Dead--don't think it is my fault, though--

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 12:44 PM

Since this began with a quote attributed to a Unocal spokesman, I thought it would be appropriate to copy this from their website (www.unocal.com):

"Updated Sept. 14, 2001: Unocal reiterates prior statements

The company is not supporting the Taliban in Afghanistan in any way whatsoever. Nor do we have any project or involvement in Afghanistan.

Beginning in late 1997, Unocal was a member of a multinational consortium that was evaluating construction of a Central Asia Gas (CentGas) pipeline between Turkmenistan and Pakistan. Part of this pipeline would have crossed western Afghanistan. However, Unocal suspended its participation in the CentGas consortium in August 1998 and formally withdrew from that consortium in December 1998. Our company has had no further role in developing or funding that project or any other project that might involve the Taliban. The pipeline was never constructed.

During this time, Afghanistan was in the midst of a civil war. We met with many factions, including the Taliban, to educate them about the benefits such a pipeline could bring to this desperately poor and war-torn country, as well as to the Central Asian region. At no time did we make any deal with the Taliban, and, in fact, consistently emphasized that the project could not and would not proceed until there was an internationally recognized government in place in Afghanistan that fairly represented all its people. Our hope was that the project could help bring peace, stability and economic development to the Afghans, as well as develop important energy resources for the region.

Unocal suspended its participation in the CentGas consortium (see statement). The company officially withdrew from the project in December 1998 (see statement below). After several incorrect reports appeared, including one published in Pakistan in February 1999, Unocal reconfirmed its position regarding this matter in another statement dated Feb. 16, 1999."

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 12:48 PM

BTW, that discussion in a US House subcommittee took place in February 1998; hardly late-breaking news.

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 12:50 PM

BTW, that discussion in a US House subcommittee took place in February 1998; hardly late-breaking news.

Subject: RE: BS: Economic Roots of Terrorism
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:06 PM

Art,

Thanks for bringing us up to date on the facts--