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Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain??

DigiTrad:
FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE
FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE (2)
THE GRAND HOTEL
THE ROCK ISLAND LINE


Related threads:
Lyr/Chords Req: Farewell to tarwathy? / Tarwathie (6)
Help: Where is Tarwathy (6)


GUEST,Boab 12 Oct 01 - 12:44 AM
Joe Offer 12 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM
curmudgeon 12 Oct 01 - 06:55 AM
Tiger 12 Oct 01 - 07:16 AM
IanC 12 Oct 01 - 07:26 AM
IanC 12 Oct 01 - 07:27 AM
Dani 12 Oct 01 - 07:29 AM
IanC 12 Oct 01 - 07:33 AM
curmudgeon 12 Oct 01 - 07:35 AM
Susanne (skw) 12 Oct 01 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,Whistle and Bagpipes 12 Oct 01 - 09:17 PM
53 12 Oct 01 - 10:39 PM
Sandy Paton 12 Oct 01 - 11:30 PM
Joe Offer 13 Oct 01 - 03:18 AM
Joe Offer 13 Oct 01 - 03:20 AM
Sandy Paton 14 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM
catspaw49 14 Oct 01 - 03:36 AM
Sandy Paton 14 Oct 01 - 02:54 PM
catspaw49 14 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM
Noreen 14 Oct 01 - 04:35 PM
GUEST,Boab 15 Oct 01 - 04:08 AM
Charley Noble 15 Oct 01 - 09:49 PM
Dunc 16 Oct 01 - 03:55 AM
Sandy Paton 16 Oct 01 - 08:44 PM
Deckman 19 Oct 01 - 06:47 AM
Charley Noble 19 Oct 01 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,Jerry B 19 Oct 01 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Alex Roan 08 Nov 01 - 08:52 AM
GUEST,Leonard 08 Nov 01 - 11:10 AM
GUEST,Leonard 08 Nov 01 - 11:13 AM
Trevor 09 Nov 01 - 06:10 AM
John Routledge 04 Sep 03 - 08:53 PM
GUEST,madwaff at work 05 Sep 03 - 06:09 AM
Reiver 2 05 Sep 03 - 08:32 PM
madwaff 07 Sep 03 - 05:14 PM
GUEST,leeneia 07 Sep 03 - 09:51 PM
GUEST,ScabbyDouglas 08 Sep 03 - 09:56 AM
OldPossum 08 Sep 03 - 02:21 PM
Dave Bryant 09 Sep 03 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,Bard Judith 22 Sep 05 - 09:31 PM
Malcolm Douglas 23 Sep 05 - 12:46 AM
Bard Judith 23 Sep 05 - 09:20 AM
open mike 23 Sep 05 - 03:36 PM
GUEST,Dave Arthur 21 Nov 07 - 08:50 PM
Joe Offer 22 Nov 07 - 05:02 PM
Joe Offer 22 Nov 07 - 06:31 PM
Art Thieme 22 Nov 07 - 06:55 PM
Sandy Paton 23 Nov 07 - 12:23 AM
Art Thieme 23 Nov 07 - 12:34 AM
Art Thieme 23 Nov 07 - 12:38 AM
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Subject: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:44 AM

"Farewell to Tarwathie"-----in public domain?


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM

Good question, Boab - the Digital Tradition says it was written by George Scroggie, whoever he was. I have two Judy Collins albums that say the song is traditional, arranged by Judy Collins. Not much information in the Traditional Ballad Index, except that it appears that A.L. Lloyd recorded the song. I'll post the Ballad Index information. The Baddad Index, in turn, cites only the Digital Tradition and the Lloyd recording.
-Joe Offer-

Farewell to Tarwathie

DESCRIPTION: Sailor bids farewell to Tarwathie, his girl and his friends as he sets off for the Greenland whaling grounds. He describes the harsh conditions in Greenland, saying they'll not tarry there, but head for home as soon as possible
AUTHOR: George Scroggie ?
EARLIEST DATE: 1908 (GreigDuncan1)
KEYWORDS: love farewell separation whaler
FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland(Aber))
REFERENCES (3 citations):
Greig #85, p. 1, "Farewell to Tarwathie" (1 text)
GreigDuncan1 15, "Farewell to Tarwathie" (1 text)
DT, TARWATHI*

Roud #2562
RECORDINGS:
A. L. Lloyd, "Farewell to Tarwathie" (on Lloyd3, Lloyd9)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "Green Bushes" (tune)
cf. "The Grand Hotel" (tune)
File: DTtarwat

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Song List

Go to the Ballad Index Instructions
Go to the Ballad Index Bibliography or Discography

The Ballad Index Copyright 2016 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.



We have two versions in the Digital Tradition. I believe the first is a transcription of the Judy Collins recording, although I haven't checked it.

FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE
By George Scroggie

Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill
And the dear land o' Crimond, I'll bid you fareweel
I'm bound out for Greenland and ready to sail
In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale

Adieu to my comrades, for awhile we must part
And likewise the dear lass that fair won my heart
The cold ice of Greenland, my love will not chill
And the longer my absence, more loving she'll feel

Our ship is well rigged and she's ready to sail
Our crew, they are anxious to follow the whale
Where the icebergs do float and the stormy winds blow
Where the land and the ocean are covered with show

The cold coast of Greenland is barren and bare
No seed time nor harvest is ever known there
And the birds here sing sweetly on mountain and dale
But there isn't a birdie to sing tae the whale

There is no habitation for a man to live there
And the king of that country is the fierce Greenland bear
And there will be no temptation to tarry long there
Wi' our ship bumper full, we will homeward repair

@Scottish @parting @animal @travel
recorded by July Collins on Whales and Nightingales
filename[ TARWATHI
TUNE FILE: TARWATHI
CLICK TO PLAY
SOF




And the second version in the DT:

FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE (2)
(George Scroggie)

Farewell to Tarwathie
Adieu, Mormon Hill
Land of my fathers
I bid you farewell.

Your hills and your valleys,
Your mountains of heath
Still dear to my heart
Is the land of my birth.

Adieu to my comrades
May God bless you all;
My friends and relations
I bid you farewell.

For a while I must leave you
And go to the sea
Heaven prosper the bonny ship
That I will go wi'

May He who never slumbers
From danger us keep,
While viewing his wonders
On the mighty deep.

Our ship she is rigged
And ready to sail,
Our crew they are anxious
To follow the whale.

Where the icebergs float,
And the stormy winds blow;
Where the land and the ocean
Is covered with snow.

The cold clime of Greenland
Is barren and bare;
No seed time nor harvest
Is ever known there.

The birds here sing sweetly
On mountain and dale;
But the songsters are mute
In the land of the whale.

There is no habitation
For man to live there
The king of that country
Is the fierce Greenland bear.

But when I am sailing
Upon the wide main,
Be cheerful and happy
Till I come again.

And you my dear mother,
O weep not for me,
But trust in His mercy
That ruleth the sea.

Who saves on the ocean
As well's on the land,
For we are all guarded
By His mighty hand.

He rides on the billows
And walks on the wave
His arm is powerful
To sink or to save.

And though I be absent
You need never fear;
There's no place so distant
But God will be there.

I will pray night and morning,
Dear parents, for you;
For the hope of returning
Takes the sting from adieu.


George Scroggie
from "The Peasant's Lyre, A Collection of Miscellaneous Poems"
Strichen, Aberdeen, printed by William Bennett 1857
This song was also recorded by Ewan MacColl on the Washington album, "Whaling Songs," MacColl and Lloyd. It is also in the anthology, "The Singing Island," MacColl-Seeger. The notes, in both cases by Lloyd give no authorship but do state that the tune is also that of "Green Bushes" and "The Waggoner"s Lad."
A further look at "The Singing Island" yields the following, Fareweel To Tarwath
ie -- Contributed by A.L. Lloyd, who learned it from John Sinclair, a native of
Ballater, in Durban, South Africa, 1938.
filename[ TARWATH2
JRO

This second version is taken from my 2001 post in this thread (below). -Joe Offer/JRO-


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: curmudgeon
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:55 AM

This song was also recorded by Ewan MacColl on the Washington album, "Whaling Songs," MacColl and Lloyd. It is also in the anthology, "The Singing Island," MacColl-Seeger. The notes, in both cases by Lloyd give no authorship but do state that the tune is also that of "Green Bushes" and "The Waggoner"s Lad."


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Tiger
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:16 AM

No indication that it's old enough to be PD, though.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: IanC
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:26 AM

"Farewell to Tarwathie"

According to Ewan MacColl, this whaling song was written in the 1850s by George Scroggie of Aberdeenshire, although the tune might be borrowed from an earlier song. This tune appears in the US as "My Horses Ain't Hungry" and "Rye Whisky". An up-tempo version was a hit in the 1950s as "Shrimp Boats Are A-Comin'". Bob Dylan borrowed the tune for his "Farewell, Angelina", recorded by Joan Baez.

From here.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: IanC
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:27 AM

Here's the original poem by George Scroggie, from "The Peasant's Lyre, A Collection of Miscellaneous Poems" Strichen, Aberdeen, printed by William Bennett 1857.

Judy Collins' version was an adaptation of this.

Cheers!
Ian


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Dani
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:29 AM

Somewhere (I'll look it up later) I read that George Scroggie of Aberdeenshire was a farmer who probably never saw the ocean. I'd love to know if this is true or not, since it's one of the things I love about this song, which I love very much. Reminds me of the white/black/gospel/spiritual conversation, where there's something to be said for authenticity and provenance, and something else to be said about music of the heart.

Dani


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: IanC
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:33 AM

Dani

He was a miller.

:-)
Ian


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: curmudgeon
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:35 AM

A further look at "The Singing Island" yields the following,

Fareweel To Tarwathie -- Contributed by A.L. Lloyd, who learned it from John Sinclair, a native of Ballater, in Durban, South Africa, 1938.

Tom


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 08:50 PM

Some more info


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,Whistle and Bagpipes
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:17 PM

What - or where - is Tarwathie?


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: 53
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:39 PM

never heard of it. bob


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:30 PM

Take a trip on Susanne's blue clickie thing above, and you'll learn that Tarwathie was a farm at Mormond Hill. I learned "Farewell tae Tarwathie" from MacColl in 1958. I had sung "Pretty Saro" at a Princess Louise "Ballads and Blues" session one night. MacColl then asked me if I knew there was a whaling song from Aberdeen that also used the tune. When I said I'd not heard it, Ewan sang it for me. In 1959, after returning to the States, I often sang it while sharing the bill at the Exodus in Denver with Judy Collins. I've always sort of figured she picked the song up from me at that time. Her first record did include three songs she had learned from me (or so Jak Holzman told me when he was about to release the album). The text I sang, as I got it from Ewan's singing of it, is exactly as it appears on the site that Susanne's blue clickie thing takes you to. Another song I sang every night during the Exodus gig (it was almost a theme song for me at that time) was one I had learned in England from an early recording of the MacPeakes of Belfast -- a song called "Wild Mountain Tyme."

Sandy (enjoying old memories)


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Subject: ADD: Farewell to Tarwathie (poem)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:18 AM

I think I'll paste in that poem, just so we have it. The site Ian linked to says "Mormon" Hill - is that correct?
-Joe Offer

Farewell to Tarwathie
(George Scroggie)

Farewell to Tarwathie--
Adieu, Mormon Hill--
Land of my fathers
I bid you farewell.

Your hills and your valleys,
Your mountains of heath--
Still dear to my heart
Is the land of my birth.

Adieu to my comrades--
May God bless you all;--
My friends and relations
I bid you farewell.

For a while I must leave you
And go to the sea--
Heaven prosper the bonny ship
That I will go wi'

May He who never slumbers
From danger us keep,
While viewing his wonders
On the mighty deep.

Our ship she is rigged
And ready to sail,
Our crew they are anxious
To follow the whale.

Where the icebergs float,
And the stormy winds blow;
Where the land and the ocean
Is covered with snow.

The cold clime of Greenland
Is barren and bare;
No seed time nor harvest
Is ever known there.

The birds here sing sweetly
On mountain and dale;
But the songsters are mute
In the land of the whale.

There is no habitation
For man to live there--
The king of that country
Is the fierce Greenland bear.

But when I am sailing
Upon the wide main,
Be cheerful and happy
Till I come again.

And you my dear mother,
O weep not for me,
But trust in His mercy
That ruleth the sea.

Who saves on the ocean
As well's on the land,
For we are all guarded
By His mighty hand.

He rides on the billows
And walks on the wave--
His arm is powerful
To sink or to save.

And though I be absent
You need never fear;
There's no place so distant
But God will be there.

I will pray night and morning,
Dear parents, for you;
For the hope of returning
Takes the sting from adieu.

^^
George Scroggie
from "The Peasant's Lyre, A Collection of Miscellaneous Poems"
Strichen, Aberdeen, printed by William Bennett
1857



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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:20 AM

Sandy, I suppose it's thread drift, but what were the other two songs that Judy Collins learned from you and recorded?
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM

"Pricklie Bush" (sometimes written as "Prickle Holly Bush")- a version of "Maid Freed from the Gallows" that I learned from Bert (A. L.) Lloyd was one, Joe, that i remember. I don't have Judy's record, so I'm unsure of the other two. Jak Holzman told me there were three, and I took him at his word.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 03:36 AM

Okay Folk Fogey......We know she had to have learned both "Pricklie Bush" and obviously "Wild Mountain Thyme" from you, so that's two! The others on the first full album produced by Jac Holzman ("Maid of Constant Sorrow") are:

Maid of Constant Sorrow - 2:35 (Trad.)
Prickilie Bush, The - 3:25 (Trad.)
Wild Mountain Thyme - 2:30 (Trad.)
Tim Evans - 2:51 (MacColl)
Sailor's Life - 2:41 (Trad.)
Bold Fenian Man - 2:44 (Trad.)
Wars of Germany - 3:10 (Trad.)
O Daddy Be Gay - 2:34 (Trad.)
I Know Where I'm Going - 1:50 (Trad.)
John Riley - 3:30 (Trad.)
Pretty Saro - 3:03 (Trad.)
Rising of the Moon, The - 4:07 (Trad.)

So what's your best guess as to the third? "Pretty Saro?"

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 02:54 PM

I occasionally sang "Pretty Saro" at that time, but Judy could have learned it from any number of singers who had recorded it by then. I was somewhat amused at the Clearwater Festival a few years ago to hear Judy introduce "Wild Mountain Thyme" as being a song she had learned from "a little old man in Ireland." When Judy made that first Elektra record, she had never been to Ireland and the MacPeake's rendition was available only in the BBC Recorded Programmes Library or on an obscure 10-inch album in England called "Folksong Today." I've always remembered writing out the words for her in the Green Room at the Exodus, but "a little old man in Ireland" makes a much better story, doesn't it? Not a terribly big deal, one way or another. Jac told me that, when he asked her about her song sources, Judy told him she had learned three of the songs from me, but I know full well that I didn't give her any of the others on that list. "Pretty Saro" would be the only possiblility for the third song.

In those ancient times, we actually sang a number of traditional folk songs in such clubs! Imagine that?

Judy and her then husband, Peter, were living in Boulder when we arrived there to spend the 1959/1960 school year. I had just finished a summer at the Limelite in Aspen, Colorado, and had signed up to tour for National School Assemblies, doing about 15 assembly programs a week in Colorado, Oklahome, Nebraska, Wyoming, and the southwest corner of South Dakota. Boulder was about the best place to settle Caroline and our one-year old son, David, while I rambled all over hellandgone, getting home on weekends only after driving many miles. During the Easter school break, I needed to keep some money coming in, so I got myself booked into the Exodus with Judy, the blossoming young twenty-year-old singer. When I was off to places like Sundance, Wyoming, or Fort Lawton, Oklahoma, and Judy was up in Crystal City, or some such place, Peter and Caroline would often share a babysitter for our David and their Clark, who were about the same age, and go together to hear folks like Ed McCurdy at the Exodus. I had made my Elektra record (an embarrassment to me now), and was asked by Jac Holzman to come back to New York to make a second recording of "ribald sea songs." I gave it a go, but discovered that these weren't lusty old shanties, which I love, but off-color songs of the modern navy -- not my cup of tea. I figured a recording like that would put an immediate end to my school assembly income! "Miss V.D. of Guam" was not the sort of thing the Superintendant of Schools in East Overshoe, Nebraska, would like to hear from the folk artist soon to appear before his fifth graders. Oscar Brand, who was preparing the material for Elektra, ended up recording the songs himself on an album titled Every Inch a Sailor. Remember that gem?

Anyway, it was at this time that Jac told me Judy was making a record for him that would include three songs she had learned from me, and, from that point on, friends, it's history! Her career took off, she and Peter moved to Connecticut (where Peter was a teaching fellow in the English Department at UConn), they split, Peter went to teach in British Columbia (I think it was), and Judy became a folk star. Her life has been quite tragic, as many of you know. It seems to me that the prize she sought proved terribly costly. I ended up living in a small rural community and running an obscure folk music record label. But I've enjoyed a marriage of forty-four blessed years and now have six grandchildren to cherish. I certainly wouldn't trade.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: catspaw49
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM

Thanks Sandy, another gem..........even if you aren't a little old man in Ireland.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Noreen
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 04:35 PM

Thank you Sandy, for sharing that with us. Lovely.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:08 AM

Sandy, I'm sure glad I started this thread. Not many insights into life and living are found on any forum. Your posting was one of the best----


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 09:49 PM

And nice information on the song as well. And once again we have a good example of folk processing improving a poem. Still, it's nice to see where it all came from.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Dunc
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:55 AM

Six or seven years ago I was told that I was being sent to do a job at a place called Crimond. I had never heard of Crimond let alone "Farewell tae Tarwathie" at that time.
I arrived and found myself spending most of my time in the hides around the loch at Crimond which is owned by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. The bird life was wonderful and it was better than working. I made a couple of visits to an establishment on top of Mormond Hill. I may well have passed through Tarwathie but I have no recollection of doing that.
But hey...I enjoyed my short time there and was instantly reminded of that visit when I heard the song for the first time.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:44 PM

Charley Noble: I agree with you 100%. This is the first time I've seen the complete text of the original poem by Scroggie. Reading it over, if one were to select the best of the verses, combine a few half-verses into whole ones, and judiciously scrap the remainder, you might come up with something closely resembling the text as we all know it now. The "folk" just did all that editing for us.

I've done the same thing with the Tannahill poem that was the basis for "Wild Mountain Thyme" (and "The Braes of Balquiddar" as it is currently sung in the tradition) and come to the same conclusion. Clearly, the "folk" make damned good editors. When the scholars observe that the ballads eschew long, descriptive passages in favor of cutting direct to the chase, I think they must be observing the results of many generations of similar editing. The good folk caught the essence of the story, tossed out the extraneous verbiage that may once have surrounded it, and have presented us with some fine, unadorned, narrative poetry -- stark and powerful. I wish some of our young singer/songwriters would observe the process and follow suit! Could possibly improve their product.

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Deckman
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:47 AM

Hi Sandy ... So ... what are your grandchildren's favorite songs from Gramma and Grandpa? CHEERS from the West Coast ... Bob


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Charley Noble
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 09:36 AM

My favorite memory of this song is with Molly Carlson, a marine archeologist, leading the song backed up with the Roll & Go chorus and accompanied by a "whalecaller." Now what exactly was the whalecaller? According to Molly it was a prototype designed by some Green Peace folks in an attempt to communicate with whales (this is a true story). It had a metal bowl which was filled with water and some metal struts of various lengths sprouting out from its top. One made the whale sounds by bowing the struts. Brett became quite good at this, at least in terms of accompanying the song, entralling the rest of us and whomever we were entertaining. Unfortunately, we never got a chance to try it out in the Gulf of Maine with whales. I understand that Green Peace was not very successful with their communication experiements either. After Molly left Roll & Go, pursuing a more professional career, I'm not sure what happened to the whalecaller, probably gathering dust on some closet shelf.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,Jerry B
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:15 AM

Delightful thread, on two levels. Thanks, Sandy, for the reminiscences. When's your book coming out?

I found new interest in the song when I realized it worked better as a (in Sandy's word)"lusty" up-beat number than with the comtemplative spin Judy gave it. The fellow is setting out on the voyage "in hopes to find riches" and I will argue that a strong, perky rendition is closer to how whalers might have sung it.

JB


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,Alex Roan
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 08:52 AM

finbar and Eddie Furey recorded both Farewell to Tarwathie and the Prickle Bush on the same album. So from whom did they learn these songs?


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,Leonard
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 11:10 AM

If you go into www.streetmap.co.uk and search under Tarwathie in UK place names it will take you to a dwelling just south of Buckie in Morayshire, Scotland. Neares village is Broadley. This about 36 miles west and a little north from Mormond Hill, Aberdeenshire, which is near Ratven.(not Rathven) So... is this the very farm Sandy mentions?


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,Leonard
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 11:13 AM

Sorry - that should be Rathen!


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Trevor
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 06:10 AM

Anybody who was at Llanstock will have heard this sung to perfection by Lady P. I've got more hairs on the back of my neck than on my head, and they were all standing up.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: John Routledge
Date: 04 Sep 03 - 08:53 PM

Thanks Noreen/SuevG. What a great thread. Will certainly learn it now!!


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,madwaff at work
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:09 AM

Just to add a bit of local... there's 2 farms called North and West Tarwathie just beside and west of Mormond Hill, on the A981 road about 6 miles south from Fraserburgh (pass them on my way to work every day!) which are more likely to be referred to in the song than a place over near Buckie. Mormond Hill lies between Tarwathie and the village of Strichen, and Crimond (there used to be a coffin road ran around the southern side of the hill). Bit a of nautical saying - 'Keep Mormond Hill a handspike high, and Rattray Briggs you'll nae come nigh' - good gen, as there were a lot of shipwrecks off Rattray.

cheers
madwaff


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Reiver 2
Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:32 PM

Ah! That nails down a location for another fine song, Mormond Braes. I would think Mormond Braes and Mormond Hill would be one and the same, or am I assuming too much. The first line of Mormond Braes is, "As I gaed doon tae Strichen toun..." so that pins down the location I think.

Nice thread, BTW. Thanks to Sandy and everyone else.

Reiver 2


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: madwaff
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 05:14 PM

Aye Reiver 2, Mormond Braes does refer to Strichen as above! This is a good location for songs "o' the sea an' farmtoun"!! (Bonny Ship the 'Diamond', Barnyards o' Delgatie, Bonnie Maid o' Fyvie, Ewan McColl's 'Song o' the Fishgutters' all spring to mind)
Cheers
madwaff


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 09:51 PM

Re: "Somewhere (I'll look it up later) I read that George Scroggie of Aberdeenshire was a farmer who probably never saw the ocean."

I looked up Tarwathie, Tarawathie, and Crimond in my atlas. Tarwathie isn't there, but Crimond is on the eastern Scottish coast, in Aberdeenshire as promised, less than ten miles from the sea. Even if George Scroggie was a farmer, he must have seen the ocean many times.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,ScabbyDouglas
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 09:56 AM

There's not that many places in Scotland where you're more than 40 miles from the sea. And while it is true to say that people in general were less well-travelled in bygone days than they are now, farm labourers - particularly farmworkers who would travel to feeing fairs - got around the country quite a bit, and itinerant workers (see Song of the Fishgutters, for example) were anything but homebodies.


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Subject: Location of Tarwathie
From: OldPossum
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 02:21 PM

Location of Tarwathie - to see the other placenames: click on the minus-symbol below the map to zoom out.


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:05 AM

I learnt this song from "The Singing Island" and used to sing it with concertina. I needed something to play between the verses and didn't have to look further than the second line (of the MacColl version) as the last line of the hymn tune "Crimmond" (The Lord's my shepherd) fits beautifully. I was obviously not the only one to make this connection as I later heard Tony Rose doing the same thing.


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Subject: Tarwathie / Tarwathi => tune for "The Grand Hotel"
From: GUEST,Bard Judith
Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:31 PM

May I add my mite?

A West Coast (Vancouver, Canada) logging song called "The Grand Hotel" has this tune, which I was finally able to identify through midi-surfing as 'Tarwathi' AKA 'Tarwathie'.   For a lovely version, and the words to The Grand Hotel, click over to http://members.shaw.ca/tunebook/grand.htm



(feeling very impressed with her n00b-self for having made a previously-unremarked connection - she hopes!)
Judith


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 12:46 AM

Alas, it's becoming increasingly difficult to get there first! See DT file Grand Hotel


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: Bard Judith
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:20 AM

Oh, I was aware you had the tune and lyrics for Grand Hotel ... I just didn't see that anyone had made an overt connection between the two songs. It's rather interesting to speculate on how a nostalgic Scottish poem might have spawned a rowdy West Coast lumberjack ditty, no? Ah well, it may not be a significant contribution, but as a brand-new-member, one must start somewhere....

:)


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: open mike
Date: 23 Sep 05 - 03:36 PM

...accompanied by a "whalecaller." Now what exactly was the whalecaller? According to Molly it was a prototype designed by some Green Peace folks in an attempt to communicate with whales (this is a true story). It had a metal bowl which was filled with water and some metal struts of various lengths sprouting out from its top. One made the whale sounds by bowing the struts.....

this exactly describes an instrument i have heard called a waterphone

i think it was invented by a fellow named Richard Waters..see this
LINK


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Subject: RE: Tarwathie
From: GUEST,Dave Arthur
Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:50 PM

I'd like to throw in a few thoughts from across the pond. A set of words for Farewell to Tarwathie based on the George Scroggie 1850s poem, were collected by Greig and Duncan in Aberdeenshire and appear in the first volume of the Greig-Duncan 8 volume song collection, published by Aberdeen University Press. Greig and Duncan collected no tune for the song/poem lyrics. The tune that everyone associates with the lyrics comes from the singing of A.L.Lloyd, who recorded it on the Riverside album 'Thar She Blows' in 1956. It was subsequently printed by MacColl, with a note saying learnt by Lloyd from John Sinclair of Durban, South Africa in 1938. Lloyd has also said in sleeve notes that, 'the tune is an old favourite, best known in connection with the song called The Green Bushes'. It's also, of course, a slowed down version of 'Rye Whiskey'. Now here's what I find interesting. Having known that Lloyd claimed to have learnt it in Durban (he was in Durban in 1938, by the way, on the way back from his whaling trip in the Antarctic), and finding a set of the original words as collected by Gavin Greig, and knowing Bert's penchant for tinkering with songs, I decided, without looking at Bert's set of words (and which I haven't heard for p'raps thirty years), to see what changes I would make to the Greig-Duncan collected lyrics to make it singable, using the Rye Whiskey tune. After about five minutes I had knocked up a singable version, which really just needed a few words dropped out, and a few 'ands' and 'buts' etc., inserted for scansion. I then got a copy of Bert's words and lo and behold they were almost identical, in fact a couple of lines where I'd felt the need to rephrase were identical to Bert's version. Bert was also very much into cowboy and American songs in general in the 1940s and 50s, so was very familiar with the Rye Whiskey tune. So my theory is that unless the unknown John Sinclair in South Africa had access to the Gavin Greig manuscript collection, (which Bert might easily have done, I've got to check that out) and had decided to change a few of the lyrics to make it more singable, and one particular line less romantic and more feisty (one of Bert's common lyrical adaptions), and put it to the tune of Rye Whiskey, or as Bert says The Green Bushes, then the only alternative is that Bert Lloyd put it together himself, and came up with John Sinclair to give it a bit of unprovable authority. If this is correct it means that the people who've been waxing lyrical about the wonderful Scots tune have in fact just been playing and singing 'Rye Whiskey' wthout realising it. Anyway, it's almost certainly not a tune that was sung to those lyrics in Scotland in the 19th century, but admitedly one that fits very well with a bit of judicious editing.
Of course, we'll probably never know if my theory is correct, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was. Unless we think that Rye Whiskey was an Americanization of an ur version of the tune from Scotland, which, in fact, it might actually be, even if not from the Tarwathie song.

I am writing a biography of A.L.Lloyd at the moment and would love to hear from anyone with any memories or anecdotes of Bert - personal or relating to performances you've seen, or any general thoughts about his work and influence on the folk revival in the UK.
You can email me at [storyart-at-aol.com]


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Subject: ADD Version: Farewell to Tarwathie
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:02 PM

This is the version on page 33 of Volume 1 of the Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection. Greig and Duncan collected during the first two decades of the 20th century. Greig collected this particular song on 10 April 1908.


FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE

1 Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill
Dear land of my fathers, I bid you farewell
I'm bound for Greenland and ready to sail
In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale.

2 Adieu to my comrades, a while we must part
Likewise the dear girlie, who has won my heart
The cold ice on Greenland my love will not chill
The longer my absence, the stronger love's thrill.

3 Awhile I must leave you and go to the sea
Wish luck to the bonnie ship that I'm going wi'
And when I am sailing upon the wide main
Be cheerful and happy till I come again.

4 Our ship she is well rigged, and ready to sail
Our crew they are anxious to follow the whale
Where the icebergs float, and the stormy winds blow
Where the land and the ocean is covered with snow.

5 The cold land of Greenland is barren and bare
No seed time or harvest is ever known there
The birds here sing sweetly on mountain and dale
But there's nae a birdie to sing to the whale.

6 There's no habitation for man to live there
The king of that country's the fierce Greenland bear.
There'll be no temptation to tarry long there
With our ship bumper full we'll homeward repair.


Singer: JOHN MILNE (collected by Greig)
no tune

Notes:
    15. FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE Cf. George Scroggie, The Peasant's Lyre: A Collection of Miscellaneous Poems (Aberdeen, 1857), pp. 73-5; and Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl, The Singing Island (London, 1960) No. 56.
    "This song was sent by Mr John Milne, Maud, with a note on its history. It was written, he says, by George Scroggie early in the fifties of last century. Scroggie was married to Mr Milne's aunt, and was at one time miller at Federate in the parish of New Deer ... 'Tarwathie' is a very favourable specimen of Scroggie's versifying powers." (G. Ob. 85) Tarwathie is about two miles north of the village of Strichen. Gw 16.9-10, April 1908.


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Subject: ADD: Farewell to Tarwathie (Judy Collins Version)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 06:31 PM

For the sake of completeness, I'll post the Judy Collins version, which is very similar to one of the two versions in the Digital Tradition.
-Joe-

Farewell to Tarwathie

Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill
And the dear land of Crimond, I bid you farewell
I'm bound out for Greenland and ready to sail
In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale

Farewell to my comrades, for a while we must part
And likewise the dear lass who first won my heart
The cold coast of Greenland my love will not chill
And the longer my absence, more loving she'll feel

Our ship is well rigged and she's ready to sail
The crew they are anxious to follow the whale
Where the icebergs do fall and the stormy winds blow
Where the land and the ocean is covered with snow

The cold coast of Greenland is barren and bare
No seed-time nor harvest is ever known there
And the birds here sing sweetly in mountain and dale
But there's no bird in Greenland to sing to the whale

There is no habitation for a man to live there
And the king of that country is the fierce Greenland bear
And there'll be no temptation to tarry long there
With our ship bumper full we will homeward repair

Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill
And the dear land of Crimond, I bid thee farewell
We're bound out for Greenland and ready to sail
In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale


Transcribed by ear from the Judy Collins Whales and Nightingales album.


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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain??
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Nov 07 - 06:55 PM

A most fascinating discussion! Feels like the wondrous Spancil Hill thread.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain??
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 12:23 AM

So, where did the song sung on this side of the Atlantic that I learned as "At the Foot of Yonders Mountain" originate, if not somewhere in Britain? I'm pretty sure it's in Sharp's "English Folk-Songs from the Southern Appalachians," or am I misremembering and just too lazy to go upstairs to check the book. That's the song I was singing when MacColl informed me that there was a fine old whaling song from the northeast of Scotland that had the same tune. I would not be at all surprised to learn that Lloyd cobbled together a good text with a good tune, but I suspect it was not "Rye Whiskey" he was thinking of when he did it, if he did it. I'd bet it would have been the "Yonders Mountain" song Sharp published, instead. Is the "Green Bushes" tune identical?


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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain??
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 12:34 AM

I'll always remember Horton Barker singing At The Foot Of Yonder Mountain at the first U. Of Chicago Folk Festival -- February 3,4, & 5, 1961. And just now I remembered that it was you, Sandy, who recorded that first album of Mr. Barker's for Folkways Records.

If you would, please tell how and why that wasn't issued by Folk Legacy?!

Love to you and Caroline!!
Art


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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain??
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Nov 07 - 12:38 AM

"City Four Square" -- also on that record -- was also a favorite of mine. What a great voice that old ballad singer had.
Art


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