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Subject: Tarwathie From: GUEST,Boab Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:44 AM "Farewell to Tarwathie"-----in public domain? |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM Good question, Boab - the Digital Tradition says it was written by George Scroggie, whoever he was. I have two Judy Collins albums that say the song is traditional, arranged by Judy Collins. Not much information in the Traditional Ballad Index, except that it appears that A.L. Lloyd recorded the song. I'll post the Ballad Index information. The Baddad Index, in turn, cites only the Digital Tradition and the Lloyd recording. -Joe Offer- Farewell to TarwathieDESCRIPTION: Sailor bids farewell to Tarwathie, his girl and his friends as he sets off for the Greenland whaling grounds. He describes the harsh conditions in Greenland, saying they'll not tarry there, but head for home as soon as possibleAUTHOR: George Scroggie ? EARLIEST DATE: 1908 (GreigDuncan1) KEYWORDS: love farewell separation whaler FOUND IN: Britain(Scotland(Aber)) REFERENCES (3 citations): Greig #85, p. 1, "Farewell to Tarwathie" (1 text) GreigDuncan1 15, "Farewell to Tarwathie" (1 text) DT, TARWATHI* Roud #2562 RECORDINGS: A. L. Lloyd, "Farewell to Tarwathie" (on Lloyd3, Lloyd9) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Green Bushes" (tune) cf. "The Grand Hotel" (tune) File: DTtarwat Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2016 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. We have two versions in the Digital Tradition. I believe the first is a transcription of the Judy Collins recording, although I haven't checked it. FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE By George Scroggie Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill And the dear land o' Crimond, I'll bid you fareweel I'm bound out for Greenland and ready to sail In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale Adieu to my comrades, for awhile we must part And likewise the dear lass that fair won my heart The cold ice of Greenland, my love will not chill And the longer my absence, more loving she'll feel Our ship is well rigged and she's ready to sail Our crew, they are anxious to follow the whale Where the icebergs do float and the stormy winds blow Where the land and the ocean are covered with show The cold coast of Greenland is barren and bare No seed time nor harvest is ever known there And the birds here sing sweetly on mountain and dale But there isn't a birdie to sing tae the whale There is no habitation for a man to live there And the king of that country is the fierce Greenland bear And there will be no temptation to tarry long there Wi' our ship bumper full, we will homeward repair @Scottish @parting @animal @travel recorded by July Collins on Whales and Nightingales filename[ TARWATHI TUNE FILE: TARWATHI CLICK TO PLAY SOF  And the second version in the DT: FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE (2) (George Scroggie) Farewell to Tarwathie Adieu, Mormon Hill Land of my fathers I bid you farewell. Your hills and your valleys, Your mountains of heath Still dear to my heart Is the land of my birth. Adieu to my comrades May God bless you all; My friends and relations I bid you farewell. For a while I must leave you And go to the sea Heaven prosper the bonny ship That I will go wi' May He who never slumbers From danger us keep, While viewing his wonders On the mighty deep. Our ship she is rigged And ready to sail, Our crew they are anxious To follow the whale. Where the icebergs float, And the stormy winds blow; Where the land and the ocean Is covered with snow. The cold clime of Greenland Is barren and bare; No seed time nor harvest Is ever known there. The birds here sing sweetly On mountain and dale; But the songsters are mute In the land of the whale. There is no habitation For man to live there The king of that country Is the fierce Greenland bear. But when I am sailing Upon the wide main, Be cheerful and happy Till I come again. And you my dear mother, O weep not for me, But trust in His mercy That ruleth the sea. Who saves on the ocean As well's on the land, For we are all guarded By His mighty hand. He rides on the billows And walks on the wave His arm is powerful To sink or to save. And though I be absent You need never fear; There's no place so distant But God will be there. I will pray night and morning, Dear parents, for you; For the hope of returning Takes the sting from adieu. George Scroggie from "The Peasant's Lyre, A Collection of Miscellaneous Poems" Strichen, Aberdeen, printed by William Bennett 1857 This song was also recorded by Ewan MacColl on the Washington album, "Whaling Songs," MacColl and Lloyd. It is also in the anthology, "The Singing Island," MacColl-Seeger. The notes, in both cases by Lloyd give no authorship but do state that the tune is also that of "Green Bushes" and "The Waggoner"s Lad." A further look at "The Singing Island" yields the following, Fareweel To Tarwath ie -- Contributed by A.L. Lloyd, who learned it from John Sinclair, a native of Ballater, in Durban, South Africa, 1938. filename[ TARWATH2 JRO This second version is taken from my 2001 post in this thread (below). -Joe Offer/JRO- |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: curmudgeon Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:55 AM This song was also recorded by Ewan MacColl on the Washington album, "Whaling Songs," MacColl and Lloyd. It is also in the anthology, "The Singing Island," MacColl-Seeger. The notes, in both cases by Lloyd give no authorship but do state that the tune is also that of "Green Bushes" and "The Waggoner"s Lad." |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Tiger Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:16 AM No indication that it's old enough to be PD, though. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: IanC Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:26 AM "Farewell to Tarwathie" According to Ewan MacColl, this whaling song was written in the 1850s by George Scroggie of Aberdeenshire, although the tune might be borrowed from an earlier song. This tune appears in the US as "My Horses Ain't Hungry" and "Rye Whisky". An up-tempo version was a hit in the 1950s as "Shrimp Boats Are A-Comin'". Bob Dylan borrowed the tune for his "Farewell, Angelina", recorded by Joan Baez. From here. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: IanC Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:27 AM Here's the original poem by George Scroggie, from "The Peasant's Lyre, A Collection of Miscellaneous Poems" Strichen, Aberdeen, printed by William Bennett 1857. Judy Collins' version was an adaptation of this.
Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Dani Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:29 AM Somewhere (I'll look it up later) I read that George Scroggie of Aberdeenshire was a farmer who probably never saw the ocean. I'd love to know if this is true or not, since it's one of the things I love about this song, which I love very much. Reminds me of the white/black/gospel/spiritual conversation, where there's something to be said for authenticity and provenance, and something else to be said about music of the heart. Dani |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: IanC Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:33 AM Dani He was a miller.
:-) |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: curmudgeon Date: 12 Oct 01 - 07:35 AM A further look at "The Singing Island" yields the following, Fareweel To Tarwathie -- Contributed by A.L. Lloyd, who learned it from John Sinclair, a native of Ballater, in Durban, South Africa, 1938. Tom |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Susanne (skw) Date: 12 Oct 01 - 08:50 PM Some more info |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,Whistle and Bagpipes Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:17 PM What - or where - is Tarwathie? |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: 53 Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:39 PM never heard of it. bob |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Sandy Paton Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:30 PM Take a trip on Susanne's blue clickie thing above, and you'll learn that Tarwathie was a farm at Mormond Hill. I learned "Farewell tae Tarwathie" from MacColl in 1958. I had sung "Pretty Saro" at a Princess Louise "Ballads and Blues" session one night. MacColl then asked me if I knew there was a whaling song from Aberdeen that also used the tune. When I said I'd not heard it, Ewan sang it for me. In 1959, after returning to the States, I often sang it while sharing the bill at the Exodus in Denver with Judy Collins. I've always sort of figured she picked the song up from me at that time. Her first record did include three songs she had learned from me (or so Jak Holzman told me when he was about to release the album). The text I sang, as I got it from Ewan's singing of it, is exactly as it appears on the site that Susanne's blue clickie thing takes you to. Another song I sang every night during the Exodus gig (it was almost a theme song for me at that time) was one I had learned in England from an early recording of the MacPeakes of Belfast -- a song called "Wild Mountain Tyme." Sandy (enjoying old memories) |
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Subject: ADD: Farewell to Tarwathie (poem) From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:18 AM I think I'll paste in that poem, just so we have it. The site Ian linked to says "Mormon" Hill - is that correct? -Joe Offer Farewell to Tarwathie (George Scroggie) Farewell to Tarwathie-- Adieu, Mormon Hill-- Land of my fathers I bid you farewell. Your hills and your valleys, Your mountains of heath-- Still dear to my heart Is the land of my birth. Adieu to my comrades-- May God bless you all;-- My friends and relations I bid you farewell. For a while I must leave you And go to the sea-- Heaven prosper the bonny ship That I will go wi' May He who never slumbers From danger us keep, While viewing his wonders On the mighty deep. Our ship she is rigged And ready to sail, Our crew they are anxious To follow the whale. Where the icebergs float, And the stormy winds blow; Where the land and the ocean Is covered with snow. The cold clime of Greenland Is barren and bare; No seed time nor harvest Is ever known there. The birds here sing sweetly On mountain and dale; But the songsters are mute In the land of the whale. There is no habitation For man to live there-- The king of that country Is the fierce Greenland bear. But when I am sailing Upon the wide main, Be cheerful and happy Till I come again. And you my dear mother, O weep not for me, But trust in His mercy That ruleth the sea. Who saves on the ocean As well's on the land, For we are all guarded By His mighty hand. He rides on the billows And walks on the wave-- His arm is powerful To sink or to save. And though I be absent You need never fear; There's no place so distant But God will be there. I will pray night and morning, Dear parents, for you; For the hope of returning Takes the sting from adieu. ^^ George Scroggie from "The Peasant's Lyre, A Collection of Miscellaneous Poems" Strichen, Aberdeen, printed by William Bennett 1857 |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Joe Offer Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:20 AM Sandy, I suppose it's thread drift, but what were the other two songs that Judy Collins learned from you and recorded? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Sandy Paton Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM "Pricklie Bush" (sometimes written as "Prickle Holly Bush")- a version of "Maid Freed from the Gallows" that I learned from Bert (A. L.) Lloyd was one, Joe, that i remember. I don't have Judy's record, so I'm unsure of the other two. Jak Holzman told me there were three, and I took him at his word. Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Oct 01 - 03:36 AM Okay Folk Fogey......We know she had to have learned both "Pricklie Bush" and obviously "Wild Mountain Thyme" from you, so that's two! The others on the first full album produced by Jac Holzman ("Maid of Constant Sorrow") are:
Maid of Constant Sorrow - 2:35 (Trad.) So what's your best guess as to the third? "Pretty Saro?" Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Sandy Paton Date: 14 Oct 01 - 02:54 PM I occasionally sang "Pretty Saro" at that time, but Judy could have learned it from any number of singers who had recorded it by then. I was somewhat amused at the Clearwater Festival a few years ago to hear Judy introduce "Wild Mountain Thyme" as being a song she had learned from "a little old man in Ireland." When Judy made that first Elektra record, she had never been to Ireland and the MacPeake's rendition was available only in the BBC Recorded Programmes Library or on an obscure 10-inch album in England called "Folksong Today." I've always remembered writing out the words for her in the Green Room at the Exodus, but "a little old man in Ireland" makes a much better story, doesn't it? Not a terribly big deal, one way or another. Jac told me that, when he asked her about her song sources, Judy told him she had learned three of the songs from me, but I know full well that I didn't give her any of the others on that list. "Pretty Saro" would be the only possiblility for the third song. In those ancient times, we actually sang a number of traditional folk songs in such clubs! Imagine that? Judy and her then husband, Peter, were living in Boulder when we arrived there to spend the 1959/1960 school year. I had just finished a summer at the Limelite in Aspen, Colorado, and had signed up to tour for National School Assemblies, doing about 15 assembly programs a week in Colorado, Oklahome, Nebraska, Wyoming, and the southwest corner of South Dakota. Boulder was about the best place to settle Caroline and our one-year old son, David, while I rambled all over hellandgone, getting home on weekends only after driving many miles. During the Easter school break, I needed to keep some money coming in, so I got myself booked into the Exodus with Judy, the blossoming young twenty-year-old singer. When I was off to places like Sundance, Wyoming, or Fort Lawton, Oklahoma, and Judy was up in Crystal City, or some such place, Peter and Caroline would often share a babysitter for our David and their Clark, who were about the same age, and go together to hear folks like Ed McCurdy at the Exodus. I had made my Elektra record (an embarrassment to me now), and was asked by Jac Holzman to come back to New York to make a second recording of "ribald sea songs." I gave it a go, but discovered that these weren't lusty old shanties, which I love, but off-color songs of the modern navy -- not my cup of tea. I figured a recording like that would put an immediate end to my school assembly income! "Miss V.D. of Guam" was not the sort of thing the Superintendant of Schools in East Overshoe, Nebraska, would like to hear from the folk artist soon to appear before his fifth graders. Oscar Brand, who was preparing the material for Elektra, ended up recording the songs himself on an album titled Every Inch a Sailor. Remember that gem? Anyway, it was at this time that Jac told me Judy was making a record for him that would include three songs she had learned from me, and, from that point on, friends, it's history! Her career took off, she and Peter moved to Connecticut (where Peter was a teaching fellow in the English Department at UConn), they split, Peter went to teach in British Columbia (I think it was), and Judy became a folk star. Her life has been quite tragic, as many of you know. It seems to me that the prize she sought proved terribly costly. I ended up living in a small rural community and running an obscure folk music record label. But I've enjoyed a marriage of forty-four blessed years and now have six grandchildren to cherish. I certainly wouldn't trade. Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: catspaw49 Date: 14 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM Thanks Sandy, another gem..........even if you aren't a little old man in Ireland. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Noreen Date: 14 Oct 01 - 04:35 PM Thank you Sandy, for sharing that with us. Lovely. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,Boab Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:08 AM Sandy, I'm sure glad I started this thread. Not many insights into life and living are found on any forum. Your posting was one of the best---- |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Charley Noble Date: 15 Oct 01 - 09:49 PM And nice information on the song as well. And once again we have a good example of folk processing improving a poem. Still, it's nice to see where it all came from. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Dunc Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:55 AM Six or seven years ago I was told that I was being sent to do a job at a place called Crimond. I had never heard of Crimond let alone "Farewell tae Tarwathie" at that time. I arrived and found myself spending most of my time in the hides around the loch at Crimond which is owned by the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. The bird life was wonderful and it was better than working. I made a couple of visits to an establishment on top of Mormond Hill. I may well have passed through Tarwathie but I have no recollection of doing that. But hey...I enjoyed my short time there and was instantly reminded of that visit when I heard the song for the first time. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Sandy Paton Date: 16 Oct 01 - 08:44 PM Charley Noble: I agree with you 100%. This is the first time I've seen the complete text of the original poem by Scroggie. Reading it over, if one were to select the best of the verses, combine a few half-verses into whole ones, and judiciously scrap the remainder, you might come up with something closely resembling the text as we all know it now. The "folk" just did all that editing for us. I've done the same thing with the Tannahill poem that was the basis for "Wild Mountain Thyme" (and "The Braes of Balquiddar" as it is currently sung in the tradition) and come to the same conclusion. Clearly, the "folk" make damned good editors. When the scholars observe that the ballads eschew long, descriptive passages in favor of cutting direct to the chase, I think they must be observing the results of many generations of similar editing. The good folk caught the essence of the story, tossed out the extraneous verbiage that may once have surrounded it, and have presented us with some fine, unadorned, narrative poetry -- stark and powerful. I wish some of our young singer/songwriters would observe the process and follow suit! Could possibly improve their product. Sandy |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Deckman Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:47 AM Hi Sandy ... So ... what are your grandchildren's favorite songs from Gramma and Grandpa? CHEERS from the West Coast ... Bob |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Charley Noble Date: 19 Oct 01 - 09:36 AM My favorite memory of this song is with Molly Carlson, a marine archeologist, leading the song backed up with the Roll & Go chorus and accompanied by a "whalecaller." Now what exactly was the whalecaller? According to Molly it was a prototype designed by some Green Peace folks in an attempt to communicate with whales (this is a true story). It had a metal bowl which was filled with water and some metal struts of various lengths sprouting out from its top. One made the whale sounds by bowing the struts. Brett became quite good at this, at least in terms of accompanying the song, entralling the rest of us and whomever we were entertaining. Unfortunately, we never got a chance to try it out in the Gulf of Maine with whales. I understand that Green Peace was not very successful with their communication experiements either. After Molly left Roll & Go, pursuing a more professional career, I'm not sure what happened to the whalecaller, probably gathering dust on some closet shelf. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,Jerry B Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:15 AM Delightful thread, on two levels. Thanks, Sandy, for the reminiscences. When's your book coming out? I found new interest in the song when I realized it worked better as a (in Sandy's word)"lusty" up-beat number than with the comtemplative spin Judy gave it. The fellow is setting out on the voyage "in hopes to find riches" and I will argue that a strong, perky rendition is closer to how whalers might have sung it. JB |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,Alex Roan Date: 08 Nov 01 - 08:52 AM finbar and Eddie Furey recorded both Farewell to Tarwathie and the Prickle Bush on the same album. So from whom did they learn these songs? |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,Leonard Date: 08 Nov 01 - 11:10 AM If you go into www.streetmap.co.uk and search under Tarwathie in UK place names it will take you to a dwelling just south of Buckie in Morayshire, Scotland. Neares village is Broadley. This about 36 miles west and a little north from Mormond Hill, Aberdeenshire, which is near Ratven.(not Rathven) So... is this the very farm Sandy mentions? |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,Leonard Date: 08 Nov 01 - 11:13 AM Sorry - that should be Rathen! |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Trevor Date: 09 Nov 01 - 06:10 AM Anybody who was at Llanstock will have heard this sung to perfection by Lady P. I've got more hairs on the back of my neck than on my head, and they were all standing up. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: John Routledge Date: 04 Sep 03 - 08:53 PM Thanks Noreen/SuevG. What a great thread. Will certainly learn it now!! |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,madwaff at work Date: 05 Sep 03 - 06:09 AM Just to add a bit of local... there's 2 farms called North and West Tarwathie just beside and west of Mormond Hill, on the A981 road about 6 miles south from Fraserburgh (pass them on my way to work every day!) which are more likely to be referred to in the song than a place over near Buckie. Mormond Hill lies between Tarwathie and the village of Strichen, and Crimond (there used to be a coffin road ran around the southern side of the hill). Bit a of nautical saying - 'Keep Mormond Hill a handspike high, and Rattray Briggs you'll nae come nigh' - good gen, as there were a lot of shipwrecks off Rattray. cheers madwaff |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Reiver 2 Date: 05 Sep 03 - 08:32 PM Ah! That nails down a location for another fine song, Mormond Braes. I would think Mormond Braes and Mormond Hill would be one and the same, or am I assuming too much. The first line of Mormond Braes is, "As I gaed doon tae Strichen toun..." so that pins down the location I think. Nice thread, BTW. Thanks to Sandy and everyone else. Reiver 2 |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: madwaff Date: 07 Sep 03 - 05:14 PM Aye Reiver 2, Mormond Braes does refer to Strichen as above! This is a good location for songs "o' the sea an' farmtoun"!! (Bonny Ship the 'Diamond', Barnyards o' Delgatie, Bonnie Maid o' Fyvie, Ewan McColl's 'Song o' the Fishgutters' all spring to mind) Cheers madwaff |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 07 Sep 03 - 09:51 PM Re: "Somewhere (I'll look it up later) I read that George Scroggie of Aberdeenshire was a farmer who probably never saw the ocean." I looked up Tarwathie, Tarawathie, and Crimond in my atlas. Tarwathie isn't there, but Crimond is on the eastern Scottish coast, in Aberdeenshire as promised, less than ten miles from the sea. Even if George Scroggie was a farmer, he must have seen the ocean many times. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,ScabbyDouglas Date: 08 Sep 03 - 09:56 AM There's not that many places in Scotland where you're more than 40 miles from the sea. And while it is true to say that people in general were less well-travelled in bygone days than they are now, farm labourers - particularly farmworkers who would travel to feeing fairs - got around the country quite a bit, and itinerant workers (see Song of the Fishgutters, for example) were anything but homebodies. |
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Subject: Location of Tarwathie From: OldPossum Date: 08 Sep 03 - 02:21 PM Location of Tarwathie - to see the other placenames: click on the minus-symbol below the map to zoom out. |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Dave Bryant Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:05 AM I learnt this song from "The Singing Island" and used to sing it with concertina. I needed something to play between the verses and didn't have to look further than the second line (of the MacColl version) as the last line of the hymn tune "Crimmond" (The Lord's my shepherd) fits beautifully. I was obviously not the only one to make this connection as I later heard Tony Rose doing the same thing. |
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Subject: Tarwathie / Tarwathi => tune for "The Grand Hotel" From: GUEST,Bard Judith Date: 22 Sep 05 - 09:31 PM May I add my mite? A West Coast (Vancouver, Canada) logging song called "The Grand Hotel" has this tune, which I was finally able to identify through midi-surfing as 'Tarwathi' AKA 'Tarwathie'. For a lovely version, and the words to The Grand Hotel, click over to http://members.shaw.ca/tunebook/grand.htm (feeling very impressed with her n00b-self for having made a previously-unremarked connection - she hopes!) Judith |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Sep 05 - 12:46 AM Alas, it's becoming increasingly difficult to get there first! See DT file Grand Hotel |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: Bard Judith Date: 23 Sep 05 - 09:20 AM Oh, I was aware you had the tune and lyrics for Grand Hotel ... I just didn't see that anyone had made an overt connection between the two songs. It's rather interesting to speculate on how a nostalgic Scottish poem might have spawned a rowdy West Coast lumberjack ditty, no? Ah well, it may not be a significant contribution, but as a brand-new-member, one must start somewhere.... :) |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: open mike Date: 23 Sep 05 - 03:36 PM ...accompanied by a "whalecaller." Now what exactly was the whalecaller? According to Molly it was a prototype designed by some Green Peace folks in an attempt to communicate with whales (this is a true story). It had a metal bowl which was filled with water and some metal struts of various lengths sprouting out from its top. One made the whale sounds by bowing the struts..... this exactly describes an instrument i have heard called a waterphone i think it was invented by a fellow named Richard Waters..see this LINK |
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Subject: RE: Tarwathie From: GUEST,Dave Arthur Date: 21 Nov 07 - 08:50 PM I'd like to throw in a few thoughts from across the pond. A set of words for Farewell to Tarwathie based on the George Scroggie 1850s poem, were collected by Greig and Duncan in Aberdeenshire and appear in the first volume of the Greig-Duncan 8 volume song collection, published by Aberdeen University Press. Greig and Duncan collected no tune for the song/poem lyrics. The tune that everyone associates with the lyrics comes from the singing of A.L.Lloyd, who recorded it on the Riverside album 'Thar She Blows' in 1956. It was subsequently printed by MacColl, with a note saying learnt by Lloyd from John Sinclair of Durban, South Africa in 1938. Lloyd has also said in sleeve notes that, 'the tune is an old favourite, best known in connection with the song called The Green Bushes'. It's also, of course, a slowed down version of 'Rye Whiskey'. Now here's what I find interesting. Having known that Lloyd claimed to have learnt it in Durban (he was in Durban in 1938, by the way, on the way back from his whaling trip in the Antarctic), and finding a set of the original words as collected by Gavin Greig, and knowing Bert's penchant for tinkering with songs, I decided, without looking at Bert's set of words (and which I haven't heard for p'raps thirty years), to see what changes I would make to the Greig-Duncan collected lyrics to make it singable, using the Rye Whiskey tune. After about five minutes I had knocked up a singable version, which really just needed a few words dropped out, and a few 'ands' and 'buts' etc., inserted for scansion. I then got a copy of Bert's words and lo and behold they were almost identical, in fact a couple of lines where I'd felt the need to rephrase were identical to Bert's version. Bert was also very much into cowboy and American songs in general in the 1940s and 50s, so was very familiar with the Rye Whiskey tune. So my theory is that unless the unknown John Sinclair in South Africa had access to the Gavin Greig manuscript collection, (which Bert might easily have done, I've got to check that out) and had decided to change a few of the lyrics to make it more singable, and one particular line less romantic and more feisty (one of Bert's common lyrical adaptions), and put it to the tune of Rye Whiskey, or as Bert says The Green Bushes, then the only alternative is that Bert Lloyd put it together himself, and came up with John Sinclair to give it a bit of unprovable authority. If this is correct it means that the people who've been waxing lyrical about the wonderful Scots tune have in fact just been playing and singing 'Rye Whiskey' wthout realising it. Anyway, it's almost certainly not a tune that was sung to those lyrics in Scotland in the 19th century, but admitedly one that fits very well with a bit of judicious editing. Of course, we'll probably never know if my theory is correct, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was. Unless we think that Rye Whiskey was an Americanization of an ur version of the tune from Scotland, which, in fact, it might actually be, even if not from the Tarwathie song. I am writing a biography of A.L.Lloyd at the moment and would love to hear from anyone with any memories or anecdotes of Bert - personal or relating to performances you've seen, or any general thoughts about his work and influence on the folk revival in the UK. You can email me at [storyart-at-aol.com] |
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Subject: ADD Version: Farewell to Tarwathie From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Nov 07 - 05:02 PM This is the version on page 33 of Volume 1 of the Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection. Greig and Duncan collected during the first two decades of the 20th century. Greig collected this particular song on 10 April 1908. FAREWELL TO TARWATHIE 1 Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill Dear land of my fathers, I bid you farewell I'm bound for Greenland and ready to sail In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale. 2 Adieu to my comrades, a while we must part Likewise the dear girlie, who has won my heart The cold ice on Greenland my love will not chill The longer my absence, the stronger love's thrill. 3 Awhile I must leave you and go to the sea Wish luck to the bonnie ship that I'm going wi' And when I am sailing upon the wide main Be cheerful and happy till I come again. 4 Our ship she is well rigged, and ready to sail Our crew they are anxious to follow the whale Where the icebergs float, and the stormy winds blow Where the land and the ocean is covered with snow. 5 The cold land of Greenland is barren and bare No seed time or harvest is ever known there The birds here sing sweetly on mountain and dale But there's nae a birdie to sing to the whale. 6 There's no habitation for man to live there The king of that country's the fierce Greenland bear. There'll be no temptation to tarry long there With our ship bumper full we'll homeward repair. Singer: JOHN MILNE (collected by Greig) no tune Notes:
"This song was sent by Mr John Milne, Maud, with a note on its history. It was written, he says, by George Scroggie early in the fifties of last century. Scroggie was married to Mr Milne's aunt, and was at one time miller at Federate in the parish of New Deer ... 'Tarwathie' is a very favourable specimen of Scroggie's versifying powers." (G. Ob. 85) Tarwathie is about two miles north of the village of Strichen. Gw 16.9-10, April 1908. |
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Subject: ADD: Farewell to Tarwathie (Judy Collins Version) From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Nov 07 - 06:31 PM For the sake of completeness, I'll post the Judy Collins version, which is very similar to one of the two versions in the Digital Tradition. -Joe- Farewell to Tarwathie Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill And the dear land of Crimond, I bid you farewell I'm bound out for Greenland and ready to sail In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale Farewell to my comrades, for a while we must part And likewise the dear lass who first won my heart The cold coast of Greenland my love will not chill And the longer my absence, more loving she'll feel Our ship is well rigged and she's ready to sail The crew they are anxious to follow the whale Where the icebergs do fall and the stormy winds blow Where the land and the ocean is covered with snow The cold coast of Greenland is barren and bare No seed-time nor harvest is ever known there And the birds here sing sweetly in mountain and dale But there's no bird in Greenland to sing to the whale There is no habitation for a man to live there And the king of that country is the fierce Greenland bear And there'll be no temptation to tarry long there With our ship bumper full we will homeward repair Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill And the dear land of Crimond, I bid thee farewell We're bound out for Greenland and ready to sail In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale Transcribed by ear from the Judy Collins Whales and Nightingales album. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Art Thieme Date: 22 Nov 07 - 06:55 PM A most fascinating discussion! Feels like the wondrous Spancil Hill thread. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Sandy Paton Date: 23 Nov 07 - 12:23 AM So, where did the song sung on this side of the Atlantic that I learned as "At the Foot of Yonders Mountain" originate, if not somewhere in Britain? I'm pretty sure it's in Sharp's "English Folk-Songs from the Southern Appalachians," or am I misremembering and just too lazy to go upstairs to check the book. That's the song I was singing when MacColl informed me that there was a fine old whaling song from the northeast of Scotland that had the same tune. I would not be at all surprised to learn that Lloyd cobbled together a good text with a good tune, but I suspect it was not "Rye Whiskey" he was thinking of when he did it, if he did it. I'd bet it would have been the "Yonders Mountain" song Sharp published, instead. Is the "Green Bushes" tune identical? |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Art Thieme Date: 23 Nov 07 - 12:34 AM I'll always remember Horton Barker singing At The Foot Of Yonder Mountain at the first U. Of Chicago Folk Festival -- February 3,4, & 5, 1961. And just now I remembered that it was you, Sandy, who recorded that first album of Mr. Barker's for Folkways Records. If you would, please tell how and why that wasn't issued by Folk Legacy?! Love to you and Caroline!! Art |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Art Thieme Date: 23 Nov 07 - 12:38 AM "City Four Square" -- also on that record -- was also a favorite of mine. What a great voice that old ballad singer had. Art |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,PMB Date: 23 Nov 07 - 03:38 AM If the tune was supplied by Bert Lloyd, what is the source of the similar tune (if you skip the refrain) now commonly used for "Fair Flower of Northumberland"? |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 23 Nov 07 - 04:45 AM 'Supplied by' doesn't mean 'made up by'. It may well be that Dave is right that Bert was thinking of 'Rye Whisky', but as you say, the tune was also used -in various forms and at various times- for 'Fair Flower', 'Green Bushes', and plenty of other songs. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: dilly daly of Adelaide Date: 29 Aug 09 - 03:32 AM Does anyone have the chords for this great song as sung by the Nightingales "tramps and hawkers" album. please.Terrific tune. Farewell to Tarwathie Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill And the dear land of Crimond, I bid you farewell I'm bound out for Greenland and ready to sail In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale Farewell to my comrades, for a while we must part And likewise the dear lass who first won my heart The cold coast of Greenland my love will not chill And the longer my absence, more loving she'll feel Our ship is well rigged and she's ready to sail The crew they are anxious to follow the whale Where the icebergs do fall and the stormy winds blow Where the land and the ocean is covered with snow The cold coast of Greenland is barren and bare No seed-time nor harvest is ever known there And the birds here sing sweetly in mountain and dale But there's no bird in Greenland to sing to the whale There is no habitation for a man to live there And the king of that country is the fierce Greenland bear And there'll be no temptation to tarry long there With our ship bumper full we will homeward repair Farewell to Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill And the dear land of Crimond, I bid thee farewell We're bound out for Greenland and ready to sail In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Taconicus Date: 29 Aug 09 - 03:40 AM I sing it in just C and F, like this: C,-,F,C,- |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Taconicus Date: 29 Aug 09 - 03:42 AM Ah, sorry--didn't notice the "as sung by the Nightingales" part. I don't know how they sing it. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: goatfell Date: 29 Aug 09 - 05:26 AM tarwathie doesn't exist |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,weerover Date: 29 Aug 09 - 05:30 AM Surprised no one else has mentioned that Dylan pinched the opening part of the tune for "Farewell Angelina" wr |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Megan L Date: 29 Aug 09 - 06:05 AM Tarwathie is a farm name in Strichen Aberdeenshire (Tarwathie Strichen, Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire AB43, UK) |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Reiver 2 Date: 29 Aug 09 - 12:15 PM Joe Offer: You were right. It's Mormond Hill, not Mormon Hill. There's recording on You Tube by the Corries that's of particular interest in that both Roy Williamson and Ronnie Browne are playing Combolins, the stringed multiple-instrument that [I believe] was "invented" or conceived by Williamson. It's worth a look and listen just for that. Reiver 2 |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Megan L Date: 29 Aug 09 - 12:30 PM Mormond Braes are 3 miles north east of Strichen in Aberdeenshire and would have been well known to anyone working or living around the farm of Tarwathie. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,Dani Date: 29 Aug 09 - 09:45 PM Lord, I miss Sandy. Dani |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Little Robyn Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:00 AM weerover, IanC on 12 Oct 01 wrote: Bob Dylan borrowed the tune for his "Farewell, Angelina", recorded by Joan Baez. Robyn |
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Subject: Lyr Add: MORMOND BRAES From: Tattie Bogle Date: 30 Aug 09 - 07:39 AM Mormond Hill doesn't look so pretty any more: covered in huge satellite dishes, radar, mobile phone masts, etc. Thanks to all the posters who have made this such an interesting thread. By sheer coincidence I've just posted the words of "Mormond Braes" on another thread, so here they are again (at least, the version I know: some people alter the order of the verses): MORMOND BRAES As I gaed doon by Strichen toon, I heard a fair maid mournin', And she was makin' sair complaint For her true love ne'er returnin'. Chorus: Sae fare ye weel, ye Mormond Braes, Where aft-times I've been cheerie; Fare ye weel, ye Mormond Braes, For it's there I've lost my dearie. There's as guid fish intae the sea As ever yet was taken, So I'll cast my net and try again For I'm only aince forsaken. Chorus There's mony a horse has snappert an' fa'n An' risen again fu' rarely, There's mony a lass has lost her lad An' gotten anither richt early. Chorus Sae I'll put on my goon o' green, It's a forsaken token, An' that will let the young lads ken ( or - let the ither loons ken) That the bonds o' love are broken. Chorus Sae I'll gyang back tae Strichen toon, Whaur I was bred an' born(in'), An' there I'll get anither sweetheart, Will marry me the morn(in'). Chorus |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,JimI Date: 03 Sep 09 - 10:14 PM By a strange coincidence I have been looking at my father's ancestors recently. My great, great, great, grandmother was the aunt of George Scroggie, miller and lay preacher, who was born in Old Deer, Aberdeenshire in 1827. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: MGM·Lion Date: 04 Sep 09 - 01:44 PM The tune I knew to Mormond Braes is very similar to the Trooper & The Maid - the 'Bonnie lassie I'll lie near ye version'. Is that yours also, Tattie Bogle? I miss Sandy too — in an odd way becoz I haven't seen him or heard from him since he was here in 1958 - when, however, he & Caroline were dear friends: I remember his coming to, it must have been my 26th birthday party in Hampstead, & holding everyone spellbound by his singing. I don't think Caroline was there that evening - she had only recently had their firstborn. But though more than half-a-century has passed, I hate the fact that he just isn't out there any more! |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: weerover Date: 04 Sep 09 - 04:01 PM Robyn, You're right of course, a wee senior moment on my part. wr |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: dilly daly of Adelaide Date: 05 Sep 09 - 02:08 AM Taconicus,thanks for the chords.just so i've got it do you mean CCCC,CCCC,FFFF,CCCC,CCCCC for first 5 bars of song. The version i'm listening to seems a bit more complex- Tramps and Hawkers-The Nightingale, album.It's a beautifull song.They call it "Farewell to Tarwathy" |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Amos Date: 26 Sep 09 - 02:22 PM HEre's a moving-picture rendition as sung by Judy Collins--lovely images. A |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: evansakes Date: 31 Dec 09 - 08:07 AM Sorry if this link has already been posted....here's Judy Collins singing it live. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV29xK2xyZ4 |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,Robert Date: 20 Dec 10 - 04:30 PM This posting is directed to GUEST, JimI RE: Farewell to Tarwathie JimI, if you read this please feel free to contact me at: rmcmaster@knockgrafton.com to further discuss our family connection. Who wrote: Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,JimI Date: 03 Sep 09 - 10:14 PM By a strange coincidence I have been looking at my father's ancestors recently. My great, great, great, grandmother was the aunt of George Scroggie, miller and lay preacher, who was born in Old Deer, Aberdeenshire in 1827. Well, by another strange coincidence my great, great grandmother on my mother's side was Bridget Scroggie(Nylon) who married George's brother Robert Alexander, and immigrated to Sarnia, Ontario, Canada. I have a photographic portrait of my mother Gladys Lois Hamilton (age aprox. 6 months)surrounded by her mother Cicil Hamilton, her grandmother Mary McLoad, and her Great Grandmother Bridget Scroggie(Nylon), my great-great Grandmother. The photo was take in a studio in Sarnia, Ontario in the later part of 1911. The face of Bridget Scroggie is the perfect storybook face of an elder Scots/Irish women... Oh, the stories in just that face. My mother and my grandmother moved from the Sarnia area with my father, Walter McMaster in the early 1940's and re-located in St. Catharines, Ontario, near Niagara Falls, where I was born (1947) and raised. I now live in London, Ontario, about an hour's drive from Sarnia. I remember visiting some of my mother's relatives in the Sarnia and Detroit in the early 1950s. I found it very interesting that George Scroggie was the author "Farwell to Tarwathie", and an ancestor of mine. "Farewell to Tarwathie" was one of my favorite folk songs from the 1960/70s when I first heard it sung by Judy Collins. It is a song that has stuck with me all my life, almost haunted by it. And to find it was written by a long past family member... could there be some kind of genetic remembrance at work? Hummmm??? My research on George Scroggie shows he was a farmer, but also a poet, who wrote about those who toiled on the lands and in the sea. He may never had gone to sea himself, but he must have had many friends who did. As for Tarwathie, it was/is a farm near Strichen, Aberdeenshire and,up to 1986,the long time family home of the Cardno family, who were related by marrage to the Scroggie family. Over the years many of the Cardno's took to the sea as "Artic Whalermen", the last being Davie Cardno, who passed away, March 15, 1938. The obituary from the Buchan Observer : 15th March 1938 read: Davie Cardno sails home : Mr David Cardno, Peterhead, one of the last and best known of our whalermen, died at the home of a relative in Aberdeen last week at the age of eighty-four. He made his first voyage to the Arctic as a boy seventy-three years ago by stowing away aboard one of the local fleet of whalers, and for over forty years engaged in the whaling and sealing expeditions to Baffin Land and other parts of the frozen north. In the Aberdeenshire area fifteen whaling vessels were on the 1851 crew list showed Peterhead as their hail port; 2 whaling vessels (including the ENTERPRISE) showed Aberdeen. The men ranged in age from 19 to 50. All of the whaling vessels were under sail. In 1851, just six years before George Scroggie published his little book of poetry, there were perhaps close to a dozen whalermen from Aberdeenshire, any one of whom might have been the person in "Farewell to Tarwathie," intending "To follow the whale." Even though George Scroggie 'was just a farmer' he knew the men of the sea, and he wrote with love and loyolity of his friends, farmer and whalerman, alike... and I'm proud to be desended from such stock. My finding came from many sources including researh done by the Cardno-Rettie family. A bit about my background: I am a full-time musician, percussionist who works in the almost traditional field, performing original music, much of which is based on old Celtic (Scots/Irish) tales and legends composed by my partner Celtic harpist, vocalist & storyteller Jennifer White. I'm also a sometimes writer editorials, poetry and story-songs (a three chords and a capo type folkie guitar player) Our music website isat: www.knockgrafton.com Any way... this has been a thrill to find there is still so much interest in "Farewell to Tarwathie", thank you for reading this far and letting me be part of it all. JimI, if you read this, please contact. Robert McMaster (SoundScape Percussionist) Knockgrafton Productions London, Ontario, Canada www.knockgrafton.com |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Taconicus Date: 03 Jan 11 - 12:59 PM Thanks to Robert McMaster for the above post. Some notes… Tarwaithe does exist, not only as a farm but apparently (as mentioned above by Megan L) also as a location. The annual Strichen Festival of traditional music (in late May, if anyone would like to go), put on by the Buchan Heritage Society, gives the following address for the festival : South Tarwathie, Strichen, Fraserburgh, Aberdeenshire. Yes it is actually Mormond Hill (I've seen it; it's bare and quite unimpressive except for the large collection of communication antennas atop it), but the Scroggie poem spells it Mormon (whether in error by Scroggie or in the re-typing by Dwight Rettie [see below], or because the spelling of the place later changed, I don't know). As far as I know, it's not impossible that Scroggie went to sea as a youth, but, as others have noted, there is no evidence of it. The US Library of Congress has a copy of Scroggie's "The Peasant's Lyre" with the text retyped in 1986 by Dwight Rettie, who apparently obtained the book as a remainder from a library in Aberdeen, Scotland. I wonder if the various publications (here and elsewhere) of the Scroggie poem were taken directly from the original text of "The Peasant's Lyre" or were taken from the Library of Congress' 1986 retyped publication of the original book, available online, which retyping introduces the possibility of an error in transcription by Rettie. Opposite the Contents page is written the following: The text of "The Peasant's Lyre" was given to Dwight Faw Rettie (b.1930) of Arlington, Virginia, by the Aberdeen Public Library in Aberdeen, Scotland. Dwight is the son of James Cardno [1904-69] and Lois Chloey Morris Rettie (b.1908), both born in Fossil, Oregon. Research on sometime poet George Scroggie has not yet turned up very much, but Lois has information that by recent marriage, at least, the Retties and the Scroggies are related. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,Jim I Date: 21 May 11 - 05:57 PM Still looking at my Scroggie relations and I can say that George Scroggie was never a miller and it is most unlikely he went to sea. From his teenage years c.1840 to his early 30's he was a farm labourer. He became a book deliverer in the late 1850s possibly as a result of his foray into writing. In the 1860s he moved to England as a Wesleyan missionary and seems to have stayed there until at least 1901. It was his son George (born 1848) who become a miller, a job he stayed at till 1899 when a sack of meal dropped on his head and killed him. Then HIS son george (born 1871) took over as miller. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: BrooklynJay Date: 22 May 11 - 02:26 PM Earlier in this thread, Joe Offer posted a transcription of the lyrics as adapted by Judy Collins. I seem to detect one tiny little error: The line should be "the icebergs do float" rather than "fall." Surprisingly enough, there were errors in the lyrics on Judy Collins's own website. Proving once again that when you want lyrics - and a nice amount of background information - the first stop should be Mudcat. Jay |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST Date: 14 Sep 11 - 11:43 AM I am also a descendent of George Scroggie the wesleyan preacher and had never known about him until recently when tracing my family history, I think I might have to order a copy of the book now to pass down to my ancestors |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,guest nikkit Date: 14 Sep 11 - 01:18 PM re my last post, i am the descendent who never really knew about him, it would be quite interesting to find out some more about him as he was my gr gr grandfather |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,Dibbs Date: 13 Oct 11 - 06:00 AM Ian Campbell does it in E A E ie (E)Farewell to Tarwathie (A)adieu Mormond (E) Hill and of course the rest is in A and E but I have seen it posted up in D G D too |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Tattie Bogle Date: 13 Oct 11 - 01:14 PM Sorry I never relied to MGtheM in Sept 09 re Mormond Braes: the tune I know is as in the clip sung by Robin Hall and Jimmie McGregor (or also the Corries). I think "The Trooper and the Maid" is different. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp5yAJ7DgiE |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Tattie Bogle Date: 13 Oct 11 - 01:19 PM Oops, that should have been REPLIED! My grandfather and great-grandfather also came from Aberdeenshire: my great-grandfather, William B Morren wrote a lot of poems and short stories about local life under the pen-name of Coreen: they were published in the Aberdeen evening paper. He then compiled them into booklets and sod them for 1/- (one shilling) per book: all this after he had been invalided during the First World War in France, and he gave the proceeds to help the war effort. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Tootler Date: 12 Jan 13 - 06:50 AM I sing Farewell to Tarwathie in G. Chords I found included a minor chord; so like this: Fare[G]well to Tar[Em]wathie, a[C]dieu Mormond [G] Hill And the dear land of [Em] Crimond, I [C] bid you fare[G]well I'm [G] bound all for [Em] Greenland and [D] ready to [G] sail In the hopes to find [Em] riches in [D] hunting the [G] whale. I like the Em, it adds colour to the accompaniment. Ian Campbell sings (sang) "With our ship unco' full we'll homeward repair". Unco' in that context is a strong form of "very". I like it better than "bumper full" even if that's what Greig & Duncan collected. As to Mormond Braes, I also know the tune as the one in the clip linked by Tattie Bogle in Oct 11. The same tune is in Norman Buchan's 101 Scottish Songs My Mother and Grandmother (from Stoneywood, just North of Aberdeen) were always a bit sniffy about Robin Hall's and Jimmie McGregor's Glasgow accents on that song. Nevertheless, their "Scottish Choice" album is still one of my favourites. |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: GUEST,Ove Ofteness Date: 30 Jun 16 - 10:57 PM "Farewell, Angelina" (MY take on it.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uB2uGYhN60 |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 01 Jul 16 - 12:57 AM :-) Nice |
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Subject: RE: Farewell to Tarwathie-----in public domain?? From: Steve Gardham Date: 01 Jul 16 - 10:09 AM This marvellous thread, what Mudcat does best! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: RunrigFan Date: 23 May 18 - 03:16 PM As sung by Robert Lovie Fareweel tae Tarwathie, adieu Mormond Hill And the dear land o Crimond, I bid ye fareweel I am bound out for Greenland and ready tae sail In hopes to find riches in hunting the whale Adieu to my comrades, for a while we must pairt And likewise the dear lass wha fair won my hairt The cold ice of Greenland, my love will not chill I am bound out for Greenland and ready tae sail Awhile I must leave you and go to the sea Wish luck, on the bonnie ship that I am gone wi’ And when I am sailing upon the wide main Be cheerful and happy till I come back again Our ship is weel rigged and she’s ready to sail Our crew they are anxious, to follow the whale Where the icebergs do float, and the stormy winds blaw Where the land and the ocean are covered wi snaw The cold coast of Greenland is barren and bare Nae seed-time nor harvest is ever known there And The birds here sing sweetly over mountain and dale But there isnae a birdie to sing tae the whale Theres no habitation for a man to live there And The king of that country’s the fierce Greenland bear There’ll be nae temptation tae tarry lang there Wi oor ship bumper fu we will homeward repair |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: RunrigFan Date: 23 May 18 - 03:24 PM https://mainlynorfolk.info/lloyd/songs/farewelltotarwathie.html |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: GUEST,Jim I Date: 23 May 18 - 07:44 PM In reply to Taconicus (on 03 Jan 11 ) As to the Rettie family and the Scroggies. Robert Mutch and Isabella Shand had a son James who married Elspet Morrison. Their daughter Catherine Scroggie married George BArron or Brown in June 1868. One of their daughters (name unknown) married a Rettie and their son George Rettie was born c.1889. He appears, aged 2, in the 1891 census at Methlick, Aberdeenshire. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: GUEST Date: 23 May 18 - 09:55 PM Liam Clancy did a nice version..also the title of his 1975 LP |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: GUEST Date: 24 May 18 - 04:14 PM So is the tune trad? Is the song in Public Domain? I've sifted quickly through the posts but didn't seem to pick up anything conclusive. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: medievallassie Date: 17 Jun 18 - 11:02 PM I'm going to say that it would not be considered a true "trad" by my definition simply because it is one that was written during the heyday of the Irish/Folk revival in the 60's. My research a few years ago into what would constitute a trad song was very organic...there wasn't a distinct line between trad songs and other works but generally the trad songs are older, passed down in the oral tradition and were not written down initially. The written versions of trad songs came about as a way to preserve them. So many lovely tunes from the 60's and 70's were written in a trad style, but simply don't have the age and the history that trad songs do. Now that I have said that, there are any number of other folk who will give you a different opinion lol! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: Gordon Jackson Date: 18 Jun 18 - 03:29 AM Without wanting to get into a debate on the meaning of 'traditional', I'm puzzled by your assertion that Farewell to Tarwathie was written in the 60s. I assume you mean the 1960s? If you read through this thread you will see that the words were written in the 1850s by George Scroggie, and published in 1857, so you're a little bit out. The tune is more of a problem. It was likely an existing traditional tune was used by Bert Lloyd to set the words to, but which one? Green Bushes has been mentioned as a contender, although the versions I have (Baring-Gould, Sharp (2) and some others) are quite different. Still, singers have been pairing pre-existing lyrics and tunes since ... well, they've/we've been doing it for a long time. That just shows that the tradition is alive and evolving, and that, for me, makes it healthy. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: GUEST,DTM Date: 18 Jun 18 - 01:46 PM It would be handy if there was a World data base where you could go and find out if a song or tune is in or out of copyright. This would surely be a godsend to both the 'borrowers' and the original composers alike. Pleeeeeeeeeeeease. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: medievallassie Date: 19 Jun 18 - 11:33 PM You are correct, Gordon Jackson, that I didn't get my facts completely straight but it was more a matter of not being very clear in my answer than being completely off-base. Farewell to Tarwathie as I understand it was a poem that was never truly intended to be a song but became a beautiful one when it was paired with a tune in the 1800's/1900's. The version that everyone tends to know and sing now is the one that was arranged by Judy Collins and others during the folk revival. In fact, Judy Collins is erroneously given credit for the song on numerous sites which is a major problem with the internet. Anyway, the original tune and the 60's version are just different enough to me to think of them as two separate songs. Another point that I was too lazy to include but that makes me go with the "non-trad" label is that it wasn't a song in the first place but became one later. When looking for songs for a fleadh cheoil, I was disappointed to learn that all of the Thomas Moore songs I enjoy singing didn't qualify as trad either. Even though Moore chose the traditional tunes himself to accompany his poems AND they were all certainly old enough, The fact that they were formally composed, many as poems originally, they weren't passed down in the accepted oral tradition of a true trad song. I know that Fleadh adjuticators are a CRAZY bunch and frankly don't think most of them have the heart and soul of a song on their radar but...I do have a general gut feeling about what they consider a trad song. I don't always agree with them, but they don't pay me for my opinions anyway, ! :-) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: Joe Offer Date: 20 Jun 18 - 12:57 AM Hi, DTM - there are no easy answers, but it does appear that both the tune and lyrics of this song are in the public domain. But sure as heck, you'll find a lawyer somewhere who will disagree. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: Gordon Jackson Date: 20 Jun 18 - 03:54 AM Hi Medievallassie, I agree in part with you about Comhaltas; I think many adjudicators are OK, but the organisation itself is pretty pants. Many of the senior people are not musicians themselves (a bit like many football administrators who have never kicked a ball). They - and many others - fail to understand that a song or a tune can BECOME traditional, if it adopted by the musicians in that tradition. I wonder how Comhaltas would feel about She Moved Through the Fair? The tune is traditional, although the words were composed by Padraic Colum; it has been pretty well assimilated into the traditional music canon. Some people, like some of those in Comhaltas, have the rather simplistic view that if you don't know the composer, it's trad, but if you do know the composer, it's not trad. On this basis, I'd be happy enough to sing Farewell to Tarwathie as a traditional song, whilst acknowledging George Scroggie's part in its creation. Personally, I think the words work better as song lyrics than as a poem. Gordon |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: GUEST Date: 11 Sep 18 - 02:39 PM Many years ago I was informed that South Tarwathie was the farm mentioned in the song and I stay locally to the area. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: Taconicus Date: 26 Sep 23 - 10:29 PM As I'm sure has been said earlier in this ancient thread (I didn't read through all of it), yes, the song has long been in the public domain, although there may be newer arrangements and lyrics that may still be under copyright. And also, the name of the place is Mormond Hill, not Mormon Hill. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Farewell to Tarwathie--in public domain?? From: Taconicus Date: 26 Sep 23 - 10:29 PM As I'm sure has been said earlier in this ancient thread (I didn't read through all of it), yes, the song has long been in the public domain, although there may be newer arrangements and lyrics that may still be under copyright. And also, the name of the place is Mormond Hill, not Mormon Hill. |
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