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BS: Bush's press conference last night.

Jack the Sailor 12 Oct 01 - 09:51 AM
mousethief 12 Oct 01 - 10:30 AM
GUEST,Captain America 12 Oct 01 - 10:44 AM
Whistle Stop 12 Oct 01 - 11:04 AM
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Subject: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:51 AM

I thought he did an excellent job. He spoke as though he knew the whole word was watching. He din't talk or act too gung ho. He showed that he and his administration has an excellent handle on the issues. He showed that he had compassion but still acted like the cowboy..... "Smoke 'em out". It gave be hope that things will work out OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:30 AM

Didn't hear/see it, but my wife did, and she was very impressed (we both voted for Gore (albeit while holding our noses)). He has done better during this crisis than I would have expected from the image he portrayed during the election. I still disagree with many of his policies and emphases, but as a commander-in-chief he's doing a fine job right now.

alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 10:44 AM

Damn, two messages in a row that spoke favorably about Bush. That has got to be some sort of a record. Of course, now we can expect about twenty messages from those who ignored the content and focused on his mispronounciation of Arabic terms, brief pauses between words, and southern accented English.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:04 AM

In terms of performance, I thought it was adequate, although it's clear that he's not as adept at speaking off-the-cuff as some of his predecessors. I expect his skill at these things will improve with time.

In terms of message, I thought it was very effective. Bush clearly understood that he was being heard all over the world, and certain of his phrases (like his characterization of bin Laden and al Qaeda as "the evil ones") were clearly used more for their effect on foreign ears than on the US.

I agree with Alex -- I voted for Gore, and have my share of disagreements with Bush's domestic policies, but I think he and other members of his administration are doing an outstanding job in responding to this crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:36 AM

Sounded good to me, I have to say....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:45 AM

Thought he did great, and have been absolutely fascinated watching his transformation from a "boy" into a "man" over the last while. I think he's surprising a lot of skeptics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 11:59 AM

I never thought I'd see the day! Where in the heck is CarolC, Donuel, kat, Spaw, Kendall, Greg F.,et al? Such unanimity is NOT to be tolerated here on the Mudcat! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,DSJ
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:10 PM

I didn't think he was an effective communicator at all. He sounded canned and rehearsed, and kept repeating his prerehearsed remarks over and over again, rather than answer the questions he was asked. But to be fair, that is what all the administration officials do in their press conferences.

Bush was pretty damn stiff, and clearly as uncomfortable with the press conference format as he was during the campaign--I saw no improvement in that regard.

As to content, absolutely nothing new--we'd already heard everything he said from his previous remarks or other administration spokespersons this week.

Yawn.

Why we bother with these shams called presidential press conferences, I'll never know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:14 PM

Yea! Guest DSJ! You came through for the liberal majority in fine fashion!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,DSJ
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:16 PM

Sorry, but I'm not a liberal. Liberals are much too wishy washy and tame for this radical leftist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:24 PM

Excuse me, is there something wrong with Southern-accented English? Nearly every part of the country has distinctive speech patterns - JFK himself spoke with Massachusetts twang, and LBJ also had a Texas accent. Would you prefer that everyone sound like Stone Phillips or something?

I didn't hear the whole thing - but during the part I did hear, I didn't hear any mispronunciations or long pauses between words. But what do I know - I'm a Southerner too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM

I'm with DSJ. I saw nothing that positively impressed me. I'm especially disturbed by his advice, when asked what the citizenry should do to be prepared for future acts of terrorism, to go on about our lives and trust that the government is on high alert. This is the government that contracted one anthrax vaccine manufacturer for the entire US to produce vaccine that it's not producing because the plant has FDA inspection violations (if the ABC report is to be believed). Trust the government? Not in this country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM

Kim, I think (and this is just a guess) that Captain America was being facetious.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:32 PM

The term EVIL DOERS caught my ears. Perhaps I was exposed to comic books at too tender an age because it sounded like a super hero romp. The white house sent up trial balloons regarding a Palistinian State. Margret was the only one to point this out at the end.

I think the administration will explore as many avenues as possible to insure survival of the United States.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM

Thank you for calling KFC. Would you like Regular or Extra Cranky today? ;-)

Sorry, just a little touchy this week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Amos
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:40 PM

The suggestion of a Palestinian State would certainly go a long way to balance things in the Middle East, I would think, at first glance. Let's see -- who would we have to displace and ignore this time???

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:53 PM

That's another quandary, isn't it? Sometimes you can't give something to one person without taking something away from another. When they don't agree to share it makes things all the more unhappy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM

Hey thats why Sharon spouted off last week.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM

Sorry Doug, I just got back from England last night and I was in no need of a sleep aid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM

Performance, yes, that is what we should dwell upon. Forget what was said. Forget the charity he started. Forget that he offered forgiveness and peace to those who have harboured terrorists in the past, including the Taliban. Forget that he doubled the aid to Afghanistan. The performance was the key!!

SharonA Anthrax can be treated quite effectively with medicines available in any U.S. Pharmacy today.

What we should be doing is going on with our lives. Even if the terrorists attack again the odds against it happening to any one person are astronomical. The press is doing thousands of times more damage than bin Laden. But telling people that thier lives are no more dangerous than they were on September 10, doesn't sell airtime.

DougR: DSJ condemned all presidential press conferences. That is in no way a liberal statement or a statement of the majority. You should really read more carefully before you condemn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Deda
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 01:59 PM

I thought he did well, on both style and substance--and I'm one of those who used to react to his voice as though it were fingernails on a blackboard. I even liked the bit about having each kid in the US earn or donate a buck. I think he's more able to handle the situation decisively than someone much smarter than he is might be. I still think that he's wrong about star wars and about domestic policies, but I'm impressed with how he has risen to the occasion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:06 PM

DougR, if you can dig up a single post of mine in which I have given an opinion of any speach given by Bush on any subject, please show it to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 02:15 PM

Ok. I believe I did give one opinion. I think I said after one speach, that I felt more comfortable with him prior to hearing the speach.

I don't feel particularly inclined to give any opinions about last night's speach.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SharonA
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

Jack says, "Anthrax can be treated quite effectively with medicines available in any U.S. Pharmacy today." True, if it's caught early enough, but a vaccine would protect against contracting anthrax in the first place. But that's another thread.

Anthrax aside, I still don' t trust the government. In fact, that's part and parcel of "going on with my life", since I didn't trust the government before September 11th, either!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: robomatic
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 04:41 PM

There already is a Palestinian State. It's called Jordan. They need to move to it and not go after a piece of real estate that would reduce Israel to an almost indefensible perimeter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Justa Picker
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 04:45 PM

You took the words right out of my mouth, robomatic. (I was going to type them an hour ago, but got side-tracked.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Bert
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 04:47 PM

Well, just so's as not to disappoint my friend DougR. I'll say I was not too impressed. I got the impression that the statesman that we had seen for the past month was reverting to his old ways (Who was it named him "The Smirking Dufus"?). It was quite sad to see that side of him start to reappear when he had been so good for a while there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,frankie
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 05:39 PM

It seems he took great pains to convince us that we were conducting a type of warfare that was completely new to the world and at the same time labored mightily to convince us that we would definitely win in spite of the fact that we'd never done anything like this before. I believe he mentioned bombing them out of their caves a couple of times. Basically, I think he was just rallying the troops to prop up that modern day colonialism we practice in the Middle East and to "protect America's interests" (my quotes). If we truly want to stop terrorism, at least from the Islamic world, should get the hell out of it. Unfortunately that probably won't happen until we've sucked the last drop of oil out of that region.
Performance-wise he kind of reminded me of his old man during senior's "Halcyon" days. I caught myself shaking my head a few times wondering what the hell he had just said. frankie


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 05:54 PM

We are being groomed to accept the use of tactical nuclear weapons , in case you haven't noticed.

American is being held ransom. If we throw Isreal to the wolves and pull out of the middle east they "may go easy on us". We counter with an arsenal which is not likely to destroy 2 billion muslims.

The arabs (although racist) are strategically like the American revolutionary army against the British. It is not an easy or an assured victory for the Empire.

Opps I forgot we only are going after terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:03 PM

What makes you think we are being "groomed to accept the use of tactical nuclear weapons"?....Against WHO, exactly, & for WHAT precise reason?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:37 PM

Jack Jack Jack. You're a real scolder, aren't you? I wasn't referring to DSJ's comments about presidential press conferences, I was referring to the same tired old criticisms we have heard about Bush since the presidential campaign. Anyway, Jack, me lad, I'm sure DSJ is a big boy or girl and can handle his/her own battles, don't you think? If you didn't pick up on the fact that when I wrote my first post I had tongue firmly planted in cheek, I don't know what to tell you.

Carol: I was referring to the fact that this was the first thread (the beginning posts, at least) that uniformly expressed approval of the president. You may have posted some similar ones, but none come to mind at the moment.

Donuel: "I think the administration will explore all avenues available to ensure survival of the United States." Well, I certainly hope so, don't you?

Kendall, you old curmudgeon, don't complain to me! It's obvious you flew across the pond with one thought in mind: capture the hearts of all the female Mudcatters in Great Britian. It also appears you made a lot of progress. Hell, even the Llamas were fighing over you!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 06:44 PM

I guess my point was that I don't usually make comments on this sort of thing, so it doesn't make much sense to me that someone would include my name in a list of people who perhaps do comment on this sort of thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:01 PM

Chalk me in the "not very impressed, and somewhat alarmed by" category.

The moment that perked my ears (besides the Reagan-esque "evil ones" refrain) was the question about whether our commitment to Afghanistan would result in a Vietnam type quagmire. His response was that the lesson learned from Vietnam was to not commit conventional forces to an unconventional war. What worried me was his next sentence - basically stating that this was why we'd commited conventional forces.

Huh?

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Troll
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:26 PM

He's coming along just fine. He has already surprised a lot of people and I think he'll surprise a whole lot more. He may turn out to be a very effective wartime leader.
Everyone thought the nation was sunk when FDR died but Harry Truman surprised the world with his leadership ability.
I hope Bush can do the same. He's moving in that direction.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 09:45 PM

Yup. He went to the bathroom again and didn't piss on his shoes!! AGAIN!!!(loud applause)

He's still the same smirking doofus he was 6 months ago- the U.S. citizenry would "get behind" a dead mackerel if it happened to be president during a national crisis of this type.

Let this circus play out before we start handing out premature awards & laurel wreaths- he hasn't changed his basic positions- particularly on domestic policy- one iota.

Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM

Uh, I don't suppose it ever occured to you that six months ago you might have been wrong, Greg F.?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SeanM
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 12:56 AM

Actually, though a bit over the top in my view, Greg F DOES have a point. In times of war, the population generally does come together behind the president. In a situation like this (where a substantial act of aggression led to the attacks), it's to be expected that a large part of the nation (the intelligent as well as the sheep) will flock to the prez.

And six months ago, had Bush asked for the nation to 'get behind him' in the same blind fashion it is today, I'm quite certain he'd not have the same results without the same stimulus. We're a divisive nation at best.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 01:33 AM

Doug, how could anyone help liking you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,DSJ
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 09:56 AM

A few days on, and I'm even more disturbed by my local media's reporting of primary school children being forced to say the pledge of allegiance, and standing in line with fists full of money to put in a big jar "for the children of Afghanistan".

Anyone else having problems with this one?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SlowAlan
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 10:56 AM

All of the speeches of Bush, Blair and Australia's goofy drongo PM Howard have sounded both wrong and antiquated. Each of their "tough talking" speeches has, to my eyes, cloaked incompetence and insecurity. Their ridiculous response to the horrific terrorist actions is to start their own terror!

These political gimps have got to realise that plenty of us have evolved beyond the chimpanzee, and we prefer to solve crises by spiritual means..and a bit of "lateral thinking"....eg. Has anyone in America actually asked themseves why they are so hated, and what behaviour they should change in order to rectify this situation?

That would be the best start to the situation. Fighting faceless terror with faceless terror in the hope of attaining peace is (as we used to say in the Anti Vietnam War movement.."like fucking for chastity").

The second thing they should do is to show, by a huge convocation of mullahs, perhaps even buddhists and christian religious leaders, that although America's foreign policy in the Middle East has been arrogant and "evil", to respond in the way of terror against monotheist civilians, especially by suicide, is an abomination in Islam, without Koranic justification, and that the Mullahs who teach this route are wrong, in grievous theological error. This is the correct spiritual approach..first, look for one's own errors, then look for the similarities, not the differences.Everyone makes mistakes, America makes plenty, and Ossama and the terrorist boys have made a very big one indeed. But, remember to put it in perspective, in most weeks in Iraq, five thousand people, mainly women and children are said to die of starvation and disease as a direct result of the western allies foreign policy of blockade.

They must stop the bombing immediately, and pull back all troops, and apologise..then bore them to death with theological argument.That is what would completely pull the rug out from under the terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Rich
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 11:24 AM

All of you leftest people just don't get it do you? The United States feeds, cloths, educates, cures of disease, appeases, and puts up with the UN diluting our national sovereinty. This president is trying to fix so much of the incongruent policy of the last 8 yrs as well as the unfortunate influence of leftist liberalistic influences in the house and senate. This is why we are in this mess. You liberal leftist nit wits should just get the hell out of this country and go bang your tamborines and worship Mao, Marx and Zinn with the rest of the worlds under or over (depending on overall nit witery)educated thugs. This country has, the right man on the job, period. If Gore were there with his yahmaca wearing whimpering side kick, we'd be in a world of hurt. Facts are not truth they are only part of the truth, your rapist president billy showed us all that because that's what is, is!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 11:35 AM

Rich your heart is true and your passion strong but it seems you have overdosed on 8 years of Rush Limbaugh.

Believe me when I tell you we "get it" . We even get you.

BTW we paid our UN dues in a hurry and Bush asked to use UN radar planes over American skies since we are stretched so thin.

I never saw Bush more like a deer in the headlights last night when he responded to the anthrax letter scare tactics.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 01:25 PM

Mister, I'm one of your "liberal nit wits" but, I'll match my knowledge of history with you or any other drum pounding, flag waving, mouth breathing knuckle dragger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 02:31 PM

Doug Doug Doug,

I am very disappointed that you consider yourself in a battle with anyone. Especially on this forum. Is it a "holy war" with "liberals"? A quest against world government? of which battles do you speak?

And again you reacted to a post without actually reading it? Greg F. Said GWB was a doofus 6 months ago and is still a doofus. Why would that statement prompt him to reconsider? Calm down Doug, Read the posts...... Read them again ... then, start typing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:00 PM

Jack Jack Jack. You just can't resist can you? Who died and made you my official scolder? :>)

DougR

P. S. Kendall: read Jack's posts if you want a reply to your question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 03:39 PM

When the nicest things said about Bush by the intelligensia in DC is that he is coming along fine or that he has crossed from boyhood to a man before our eyes, I see someone inferior to the position.

That being said let us hear from the alternate universe where the Supreme Court selected Gore for president.

"Heelloo II'm Al Goore. In response to today's merciless attack of monstrous proportions, one which will live in infamy until the end of time, we will be assembling an international and acumenical grand jury tribunal with justices from of every faith and nationality. We will deliver intelligence and informatioon from every agency worldwide and prosecute the criminals responsible. When the indictments are handed down we will then grind them to dust with every conceivable weapon known to man." - sometime during my second term..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,AKRick
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 04:34 PM

I'm always amazed to see that people living in a four dimensional world insist on seeing it in two dimensions ... i.e. leftist/rightist, liberal/conservative, us/them, etc., etc..

Mostly, it seems to be a refusal to look outward from their own closely held beliefs toward the possibility that some information might not conform to their worldview and therefore they might have to actually put a little work into revising it.

An active mind is always changing.

As for Bush/Gore, what a wretched choice to have had to make.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 07:08 PM

Doug, what question?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 07:17 PM

Bert, it was I who first called him a "smirking doofus"


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 10:47 PM

Papa Bush, Baby Bush--no difference between the two.

Not in press conferences, wars, attacks on American civil liberties, obsession with the CIA/secret government and covert action, or the economy.

The Bushes are a despotic American dynasty, just like their Middle Eastern counterpoints.

We are living in an era of politics and economies dominated by American Big Oil interests defending Middle East Big Oil interests.

This has nothing to do with religion, patriotism, or the moral high ground against "terrorism."

Its about power, and going to any perverse lengths of abusing people and the planet to keep it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 06:48 AM

I'm sorry... can't resist...

So, GUEST - you're saying that the Bush family is THIS generation's Kennedy family, but without the charisma?

I wouldn't call the family 'despotic', just 'rich with too damned many connections'.

This from someone who voted against him, will vote against him when he runs again, and would much rather have a stick from the tree in my backyard for president.

Well, maybe not. The stick hasn't shown me any hope at giving speeches. There may be hope for the house cockatiel though...

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:16 PM

Stand by for a ram. IF they catch Bin Ladan, they will a. kill him
2. throw him into prison.

If they kill him, he will be a martyr. If they put him into prison there will be a rash of hostage taking.

I think Kat had the right idea. Kidnap him, do a sex change on him, then send him to live under the Taliban as a woman.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 10:11 PM

SeanM,

So you believe there is only one American political dynasty per generation? Apparently you aren't too familiar with the political dynasties in the US?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SeanM
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 11:47 PM

It's debatable as to whether you could technically call the Bush (or Kennedy, or any other) family a "dynasty". After all, the definition is simply that of a succession of rulers who are members of the same family (though if you want to be pedantic, Clinton's interlude precludes their being a presidential dynasty). Thus, just because a series of family members are in political offices, they aren't a 'dynasty'. That would require the passing of a specific office from father to son - which COULD have happened had Bush the Elder passed the office directly to Bush the Junior.

Now if you want to state that the Bush, Kennedy etc. families represent an unhealthy amount of political offices held by a given family, I'm with you on that.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 09:06 AM

Well, I suppose the dictionary definition would be a dynasty defined either as a succession of family members or a lengthy amount of time a single family is in power.

Nonetheless, you chose to focus your attention away from my comparison of the Bush family to despotic ruling families in other regions, like Haiti and the Middle East.

You can argue the pedantic points of dynasties, of course. The point I was making was about political despots, which I believe both Papa Bush and Baby Bush are prime American examples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 02:05 PM

Hey Al, thanks for participating in our little forum here!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 02:54 PM

I guess George needs to:
-Sell some nuclear technology to China,
-Sell some pardons to world class criminals,
-Go eight years without an energy policy,
-Sneak in exective orders at the last possible minute to make the next administration look bad (reducing already safe arsenic levels by 400%, so that the new guy has to repeal them to keep everyones' water bills from skyrocketing)
-Barbecue a few children at a cult compound
-Engage in a little quid pro quo sexual harassment (Blow jobs in exchange for Avon jobs),
-Engineer the largest tax increase in U.S. history,
-Cut the military by a third while sending them on more peacekeeping missions than any president in history,
-Send some storm troopers into homes to aim assault weapons at six year old Cuban refugees...

and Laura needs to: -Form an illegal, unelected 500 member committee to try to socialize medicine,
-Make $100,000 on a $1K cattle futures investment pool,
-Dig up 900 Republican's FBI files, then deny doing it despite the presence of her fingerprints on the files,
-Declare to the media that "We are the President"...

It would probably help if some of their lawyers and cabinet officials died under mysterious circumstances, too.

I figure that all this must be done before this presidency will ever be considered legitimate by any liberal... Is that what it comes down to? A simple yes/no answer will suffice. Go ahead and call me reactionary, but know that the "reaction" is to those who can't give Bush one iota of credit for doing anything right. "A dead fish could lead the nation with full support right now"... "He didn't pee on his feet, yay!"..."He's still a doofus"...
I honestly thank God every night that the Doofus (and Condoleza Rice, Colin Powell, Dick Cheney, etc.) are in charge right now instead of Al Gore & Co.

You may now begin your unfounded personal attacks on my inteligence, character, and sources for facts presented.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 03:53 PM

"We know he's guilty turn him over" - that's not even a précis of what he said, it is a literal quote.

Given that he's supposed to talk like someone in a Western movie, that isn't the language of a sheriff, it's the language of someone leading a lynch mob.

He is supposed to be the leader of a great democracy, founded on the rule of law and all that. And so far as I can see there is a pretty solid case against Bin Laden. But there are a lot of people out there who still need to be convinced.

That is not a sensible sort of thing to say. I don't think you'll find many head of state who would say something like that. Well there probably are, but they aren't the sort you'd have much respect for.

The right thing to do with criminals is to put them on trial and prove that they are guilty. In an open court that is going to look at all the evidence, and is going to bring in a verdict that honest people everywhere will see as meaning something.

"We know he's guilty turn him over" Maybe they shouldn't have had those Nuremberg Trials, but just shot the Nazi leaders in a cellar somewhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:03 PM

McGraw: All well said, but one distinction: He's not talking to the legal representatives of a sovereign nation. He's taking to banditos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:17 PM

A distinction, hurricane, but I'd call it a distinction without a difference. And I'm afraid in saying that he wasn't talking to a legal government or a bunch of banditos, be was talking to the fans.

This really isn't supposed to be show business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM

Oh, my, yes, this is supposed to be show business of the highest order. Beats the next step.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:27 PM

Loopy, The Clintons are gone, lets let 'em gop and get behind this president. I am made uncomfortable by Bush's "We know he's guilty. Turn him over." There's no reason he can't appear to be on a quest for justice.

If he had said that "The members of the Taliban are aware of his guilt and are simply playing politics. They do not need any evidence" Our purposes would be better served. Perhaps, once Mr's Powel and Chaney have worked on him more, he will speak more intelligently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 04:35 PM

Loopy, I will only address one of your statements because I dont want to take the time or energy to shoot the rest of them down. Your statement that implies that Clinton had some of his detractors "disappear" is pure crap. Go to the hoax buster site. They debunked this some time back. I hate when someone spits out opinions and calls them facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 07:30 PM

Refusing to negotiate with the Taliban for the turn-over of Bin Laden (at the top of the "most wanted" list) through a third country, as Bush angrily did today, is indefensible.

The Taliban offer was slapped down, and the US conducted the heaviest bombing of this campaign.

The rest the world is keenly aware of our hypocrisy. Bush ain't after Bin Laden or the Taliban--he wants more permanent bases in the region, and knows that Pakistan is one the brink of civil war over our presence in that country. In other words, our boys aren't safe in Pakistan (especially considering that country has nuclear capabilities), and need their own bases in Afghanistan.

Exploiting the third world to keep Americans safely driving their gas-guzzling SUVs is what this is about.

Its the best god damn way of life on earth, don't ya know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 07:31 PM

JtS: At first I thought you had it exactly right, but as I think about it: Perhaps if he said it your way, it would make it all too clear that the Taliban know about bin Laden's guilt (they don't need any evidence) only because they are his direct and knowing accomplices, and you know what THAT means. It could be interpreted as hand him over before we blow you to smithereens. (Just a thought.)

(In other words: The phrase used was "I know he's guilty." Yours adds an extra allegation. That extra allegation has implications.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 07:37 PM

>>>Exploiting the third world to keep Americans safely driving their gas-guzzling SUVs is what this is about. <<<

A lot of you keep saying that, as if the massacre of 6,000 civilians was just a lucky coincidence. I'm going to stay content in my naivete, and believe that the response to the massacre is because of the massacre, not for SUV mileage expenses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 07:49 PM

Bush made it clear when he made his speech to Congress in September that the time for negotiation was past. The conditions under which the Taliban offered to surrender Bin Laben were unacceptable.

I, hurricane: don't confuse Guest with facts. It might be too much for him to grasp. Don't want overload, ya know. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 08:32 PM

If the Taliban regime were to surrender Bin Laden to a court of law for trial, that wouldn't be "negotiating".

But in the light of Bush's clear and unambiguous statement "We know he's guilty, turn him over", it's hard to see how that could be an American court.

Incidentally, one helpful thing about Bin Laden's formal statement seems to have been generally overlooked, so far as I have seen. He directly praised the people who hijacked and crashed the planes, and said they were doing a good thing.

In saying that he has discredited a theory that appears to be quite widely believed in some places to the effect that the whole thing was carried out by Mossad. That has provided a way in which it has been possible for people to condemn the attacks as an atrocity, and yet deny that Bin Laden had anything to do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 09:24 PM

"I think he might be guilty, so please turn him over before I start to bomb the beejeezus out of your country because I think he might be guilty?" No, I don't think that would play any better.

Bush would be neither judge nor jury if bin Laden were to go to a U.S. court. He is of the Executive Branch, which is charged with enforcing the laws. So there is no real harm in his saying: I am confident in his culpability and that is why (a) I want him and (b) I will utilize severe measures to ensure his apprehension.

The people who would impugn the integrity of the U.S. courts in such a situation (should it arise) are not going to persuaded from their views before or after the fact, so it doesn't matter much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Melani
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 09:44 PM

I agree with DougR (gasp! that's the second time in a couple of weeks!)--there should be no negotiation--just hand the sucker over. I think trial in some kind of third party court would probably achieve the same end as trying him in the U.S. I also think there's very little chance he would survive his first meeting with U.S. troops. Just a guess.

I am impressed, somewhat against my will, at Bush's showing as commander-in-chief. He seems to have learned to speechify somewhat better, or at least is rehearsing more. I await world developments with interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: JamesJim
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 11:08 PM

"Don't mess with Texas!"

jc


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 01:14 AM

Watch it Melani, it might be catching! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:57 AM

"I also think there's very little chance he would survive his first meeting with U.S. troops. Just a guess."

If someone is surrendering and you kill them, that's a war crime and an act of terrorism. It happens in the heat of battle and the aftermath as well - but Americans managed to avoid doing that with Nazi and Japanese war leaders. This is supposed to be against terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:38 AM

This is supposed to be against terrorism.

Only if you actually believe the crap Dumbya's handlers are putting about.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:44 AM

Surrendering Bin Laden to a third country isn't negotiating. Bush says he wants Bin Laden, yet when offered him by the Taliban, he answers with the heaviest bombing of the campaign.

There are logical, reasonable, *legitimate* reasons the American government and military is uniformly hated around the world. This is a perfect example of American arrogance. Don't accept Bin Laden when he is offered, don't stop the bombing when the international community pleads with us to stop to prevent the starvation of up to 2 million people in the coming months--just keep having our way, and the rest the world be damned.

Sure, stick with the naivete and Texas--I'm sure your safe and comfortable, mean and petty lives are so much the better for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 10:06 AM

Guest: The Taliban did not offer to turn bin Laden over to anyone. They offered to commence negotiations about the possibility thereof. If you buy into that then your naivete is more debilitating than mine. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A59568-2001Oct14.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 10:37 AM

Guest, where did you get your information. They have made no attempt to turn Bin Ladin over. Unless we negotiate, pull our troops out, stop supporting Israel, that sort of thing. Let us not forget, it was the Taliban that said that they would free Bin Ladin's 'restrictions' so that he could carry out his Jihad. Lets look at what the Taliban have been telling us. They said that Bin Ladin could not have done this because they have cut off his communications. But they lost him days later. How the hell can we believe that they knew what the hell he was doing when they "Lost" him. Then he pops back up and we can negotiate. Then they are turning him loose to run his Jihad... so you can believe the Taliban all you want Guest... they have a poor track record in this affair.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:09 AM

Hi Hurricane, Your point is well taken. What I was trying to say is that he should be calling their bluff instead of appearing to be a cowboy.

I am not an international diplomat, but I am fairly confident that Mrs Powell and Chaney could think of a way to appear firm but reasonable. When W. speaks for himself he seems to be quite the cowboy. It is only common sense and apparant to all that, If the Taliban were to surrender the bin Laden organization to another country then the reason for the USA to attack Afghanistan would decrease. If he were simply to call their bluff by saying, "Get them out of your country and we will reconsider." which of course they could not do. Then America might appear to be more fair without losing face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:19 PM

Nothing is fair in love and war, Jack.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 12:25 PM

I said "appear to be fair" Doug. We can call it war and make more enemies or we can call it justice and maybe win the war. The battle with bin Laden is for hearts and minds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM

Anyway, I see from the news tonight that the current US line is in favour of the Taliban being a major element in a new Afghan regime. Moderate Taliban that is.

This game is a lot more complicated and sneaky than they make out in the staged public performances. If anyone says they understand it they are either lying or wrong. Or in some cases both.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM

I would think "moderate Taliban" something of an oxymoron, no? Apparently Dumbya sees no contradiction, tho......
Since the so-called "Northern Alliance" is no less religiously fundamentalist than the Taliban, the "New Afghan Regime"- just one more dictatorship placed in power by the U.S.- should be a real great blow for freedom.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

Yes, this is bizarre on many levels. I can't find a reference to it, but I do see that the Northern Alliance are announcing conspiracy theories of their own.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,2001350016-2001360412,00.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Larry124
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:25 PM

If only we'd have tried to understand the grievances of the Nazis and the Japanese Militarists in the 1930's, and to learn more about their concerns, and to explain ourselves better to them, then all that sad loss of life 1939-1945 might not have been necessary.

Are you kidding me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 02:43 PM

I'm watching Bush at the event for children to give a dollar to Afgan children. Although I never thought I would say this about Bush....MWAHAHAHAHAHA MWHAAAHHA

some hypocrites are funnier than others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM

Larry 124, I'd like to suggest that you study some history, it will help you understand not only when, but, WHY. Do you really think those Nazis and Japanese got out of bed one day and decided to declare war on us? To reflect your question, Are you kidding me?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Larry 123, don't shake up Kendall. He's still recovering from his erotic trip to Great Britain.

dougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Good one Larry124 the roots of the Taliban are pretty close to those of the NAZI's we'd better get on that one right away. I'll warm up the time machine and you get ready to go back and start the Marshall plan in 1919.

Think we've learned?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BEsharp
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

From what I've seen the US doesn't make foreign policy decisions based on ethics. It's all done based on US interests. Ethics are brought up to justify what is being done. An example: Saudi Arabia has one of the most extreme religiously fundamentalist (see the next section on this) ruling class, yet you never hear about that on CNN.

On a side note I think fundamentalist is not the correct term for these radical islamic groups. The definition of fundamentalism is: A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism. Where this definition does not fit is "a return to fundamental principles". They actually stray far from the original teachings of islam.

There seems to be many posts here that lean far to the right or left. I, like a lot of people I've heard from lately, sit on the fence. I believe there should be justice for the attack. There should measures made to ensure our country's safety from terrorist attacks without infringing on our personal freedoms indefinitely. I also firmly believe we need to look at our foreign policy as a people, with all the facts, and reevaluate how we go about our business with All the countries of the world.

If only there were less sheep in this country.

And to think I was coming to this site expecting to discuss music.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:17 PM

BESharp: I think most people here agree with what you've written. I'm even more cynical on the basics of U.S. policy than you are, though. I think policy is dictated by U.S. interests to the extent that it is not subverted by private financial influence. What gets me most annoyed is when it is subverted by foreign financial influence. Persons or entities in Saudi Arabia may well exert such influence. (And I mean beyond the U.S. policy interests in access to oil reserves.)

However, just about everyone here agrees that the attacks require justice. Almost everyone agrees the underlying purpose for the justice should be deterrence, not revenge. There are a few kooks who think the massacre is just being used as an excuse to raid the 'stans' oil reserves, but the only real dispute here seems to be whether non-force means of coercion can be sufficiently effective, and when they should have been or should be attempted.

There is even agreement that a generalized reduction of international tensions on many fronts is warranted. The speifics require thought on a wide spectrum, though, so nobody has the answers, or pretends to.

The biggest problem is defining the immediate mission and completing it as defined. Answering the questions of how far to go in serving global interests (while impinging upon more immediate U.S. interests) are going to be left to our descendents to figure out, I imagine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:34 AM

GUEST BE sharp: if you came to this site expecting to discuss music, why on earth would you contribute to this thread? It's plainly marked, "BS". Go find the music threads, of which there are many, and have at it! No one's stopping you!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: SeanM
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:50 AM

In a related topic, I note today that we're condemning Israel's "targeted killings" of Hammas terrorist leaders.

Guess that they should get with the program and start carpet bombing, eh?

Oh wait - didn't we send in the special forces specifically to 'neutralize' terrorist leaders?

Sometimes the din of bullshit coming from On High is truly spectacular.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM

DougR,

I know it was marked as BS. It was just my sad attempt at some humor during a discussion of a dreary topic. I was coming here as a short escape from all the talks of war. Yet, when I see these topics I can't help bur read them. I do find it helpful to hear as many opinions as possible.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:06 PM

Like it or not we are involved in a heavy situation right now. There is no response or action to this situation that is going to satisfy everyone. There is no leader in any position anywhere who could satisfy everyone.

The Taliban had THREE WEEKS to make a decision about bin Laden. Even when presented with the evidence they requested, they were still willing to sacrifice the Afghan population in favor of ONE MAN. To me there is something dreadfully wrong with that philosophy. Why is bin Laden so much more important than the WHOLE POPULATION of their country? Could it be because he FINANCES the Taliban?

The United States sends money all around the world, including Afghanistan. And didn't we help to rebuild Japan, who declared war on us? Or have I been deluded by some half-rate Yankee history book?

Well. I am tired of talking about it. There is no way that we will all ever agree on what should be done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:18 PM

Kim C (cookie or not): Good post. You make some excellent points that I'm sure will draw some excellent negative comments.

Guest BE#: sorry if I appeared to over-react to your original post, but criticizem of BS posts by Mudcatters who object to them is such a common complaint, I guess your comment plucked my string.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:31 PM

Well, noone helped to rebuild Afganistan after it'd been wrecked fighting the Russians.

"They were still willing to sacrifice the Afghan population in favor of ONE MAN. To me there is something dreadfully wrong with that philosophy." Put like that it sounds rather fine actually, and that's how a lot of people all over the world are likely to see it.

The best realistic option would be to cobble up a deal under which Bin Laden gets put on trial in a genuinely independent court, including Muslim judges,and a new regime takes over in Afghanistan including some of the Taliban, with the Al Qaida training camps are closed down, and serious help put in. Anyway that seems to be the kind of deal that is being worked on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM

Would we have turned over the head of the C.I.A. to Chile after the murder of President Allende?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM

I regret I am not familiar with that, although I did read a novel by Isabel Allende once. (I think she was his niece?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:44 PM

Kim C: you're funny. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

No really! Isabel Allende is related to Salvador Allende somehow, I just don't remember how... anyway... back to our regular programming. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:38 PM

I realize that, Karen C., your reply to Kendall just struck me as funny. He's probably all rested up from his trip now, and as you can see, the trip evidently made him feel pretty fiesty. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:00 PM

"Would we have turned over the head of the C.I.A. to Chile after the murder of President Allende?"

You mean after Pinochet retired and they got back to having a democratic system again? I suppose the amnesty he brought in for his murderers would probably have been intended to cover the head of the CIA as well.

But it might be a nice gesture for the USA to make the offer now, as a way of demonstrating total opposition to terrorism. And the same in respect of Nicaragua and the people who funded and helped the contras.

An offer like that would really help demonstrate what hypocrites other people are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:34 PM

Or maybe the U.S. could stop funding the right-wing death squads in Colombia, if only for a couple of weeks, Kevin? How about that as a show of sincerity?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:25 AM

Or close down the School of the Assasins.

For those of you who are "American innocents" and don't know what the School of the Americas is--it is a training camp for government sponsored terrorism in Latin America and the Caribbean, wholly funded with YOUR tax dollars.

Founded in 1946, the US Army School of the Americas has trained thousands of Latin American and Caribbean soldiers. Among them are the former dictators of Argentina, Bolivia, Honduras, and Panama. Other notable graduates include the Salvadoran officers responsible for the assasination of Archbishop Oscar Romero of El Salvador, as well as many other citizens murdered by the death squads during the civil war in that country. Recent graduates can still be found in many other America-friendly countries like Columbia, as Greg mentions above.

This has been a public service announcement. You may now return to your folk-inspired jingo drumming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:34 AM

I am unfamiliar with the School of America, would you please site credible sources for it. Since it is comming from a GUEST with no identification and no sources referenced I have a hard time taking your words as fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:38 AM

A universally held belief... SURE HE'S A SCOUNDREL, BUT, HE'S OUR SCOUNDREL.

btw We are not ALL jingoists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:44 AM

Nobody, well here it is from somebody with a name. I just did a "Google" search for "School of the Americas" and it returned 17,900 hits.Any other decent search engine should do about the same. Give it a shot.

Guest is forgetting that its perfectly all right for the U.S. Government to sponsor international terrorism, run terrorist training camps, & all that- just not for anyone else to do so- with the possible exception if Israel


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:37 AM

Just a Nobody,

I'm sure I don't know what you would define as "credible" but here is an article from the Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/overseas/overseas1a.htm

The site with the best information is the excellent School of the Americas Watch website:

http://www.soaw.org/

BTW, Martin Sheen, the actor who portrays President Bartlett on the TV show "The West Wing" attends the November vigil almost every year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:02 AM

I thought a few weeks ago there was mention of closing down the School of the Americas...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Greg F.
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:11 AM

I think Rumsfeld or possibly Dumbya was suggesting targeting it for air strikes, Kim, but then figured Iraq would be more "fun"-   ;>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:53 AM

No KimC, they just changed the name at the around the same time that George Shrub was being inaugurated. Go to the SOAW site, and read all about it. They are going strong as ever down there in Fort Benning. I'm sure these days they can't keep up with the commando demands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:39 PM

I note from the list of graduates on the School of the Americas Watch website that there don't seem to be any Canadians there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:31 PM

Before this is all over, I think we may need lots of graduates from the School of the Americas. I hope they are well trained and that they know how to deal with terrorists.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM

They ought to, DougR. They are terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:16 PM

Yep, and it may require terrorists, perhaps, to defeat terrorists, CarolC.!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:26 PM

That may be true, DougR, but if we want to use terrorism to promote our interests, as we have been for years, we'd probably better stop saying that we are going to eliminate all terrorists and terrorism and the countries and governments that sponsor it.

Maybe we in this country might not see the inconsistancy there, but I'm sure the rest of the world will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:43 PM

Universal justice and equality for men and women, employment for fair and livable wages, raising the standard living through providing decent housing and health care for all, *everywhere* around the globe, is the only way to eliminate terrorism.

Take all the money currently being spent on militarist adventurism, international welfare programs for multinational corporations, and eliminating third world debt could wipe out terrorism in our lifetimes, if we chose to work toward the above goals, rather than continue to mindlessly support the despots and dictators who have been exploiting us and the rest of the world out of their greed and lust for power, and the repressive exploitation of the world's resources for "just us."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:45 PM

Universal justice and equality for men and women, employment for fair and livable wages, raising the standard living through providing decent housing and health care for all, *everywhere* around the globe, is the only way to eliminate terrorism.

Take all the money currently being spent on militarist adventurism, international welfare programs for multinational corporations, and servicing third world debt, could wipe out terrorism in our lifetimes, if we chose to work toward the above goals peacefully.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:07 PM

Guest, will you wake up?

Carol: I am not suggesting using terrorist tactics to "promote our interests." Duh! I am suggesting it to save our lives!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:14 PM

Well, DougR, the terrorists that we have been training and sponsoring through the School of the Americas have been in the business of promoting our 'interests' (read economic interests here) for a long time, and at the expense of a lot of innocent people's lives for a long time. Should we be held accountable for that as we would hold others accountable for their terrorist activities?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:20 PM

As I understand it Bin Laden was a graduate of the Middle East version of the School of the Americas. Not such a good idea.

The word terrorism gets thrown around very loosely. Often its used just to refer to all the activities of insurgent or paramilitary organisations - these are termed terrorists, and therefore anything they do is a type of terrorism.

I think it is better to use it to describe certain types of activity, including brutality intended to coerce and terrorise people into submitting, and the killing of random civilians as a means of achieving this. And described in that way it is fairly obvious that it is part of the repertoire of governments every bit as much. In fact, when it comes to body counts, much more.

And terrorism as so defined is never acceptable, and is in the long run self defeating. Using such methods against Al Qaida will guarantee that atrocities such as September 11th will sooner or later be repeated, because they will have the effect of ensuring a harvest of people willing to carry them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:22 PM

You know, Carol, I really don't know enough about the School of the Americas to comment on that. All I know is what I have read in this post. I have not gone to the links provided, because my concern at the moment is the war being waged against the terrorists that attacked our country on September 11th. I favor promoting unity during this time of need, not disparity, and that is what I consider posts to be that concentrate on criticizing our government for past sins. Particularly when I don't know more about the subject. Off the cuff, if so many of the liberals posting are so opposed to the School of the Americas, I suspect I might well support the work done there.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:47 PM

I guess I'm having a difficult time seeing how we're going to accomplish what we say we want to do if we don't abide by the same standards of behavior and the same rules that we apply to others.

In fact, I predict that it is not possible. So I consider it my patriotic duty to put the spotlight on those activities of our government that contribute to the problems that we now face.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 10:19 PM

That's my boy, Doug! I knew you wouldn't let us down. Don't just be ignorant & refuse to inform yourself, FLAUNT your ignorance, be PROUD of it, REVELL in it, BRAG about it! You've never let facts stand in the way of your self-satisfied opinions before, so why start now? I don't think you're trying to be humorous above, I think you really do mean what you say. That's what is so pitiful.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM

Ah, Greg F., I wondered when your were going to uncoil. I'm not your boy, by the way, I'm probably old enough to be your father. I'm sure we both are glad that I'm not.

Carol: So it's your patriotic duty to point out what you view as transgressions by the U. S.? Okay. If that's what winds you up, have a ball!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:28 AM

Recognising our own faults and mistakes does not weaken us either as individuals or as nations. Concealing them and ignoring them does.

"Tell me what I am doing wrong?" is an essential element in learning how to do anything better. Sometimes when people are making a lot of mistakes and lack confidence it can be best to ignore some of the mistakes, and concentrate on what they are doing right. But doing it that way is a measure of weakness in the person concerned.

Is America really supposed to be seen as a faltering student to be shielded from criticism? (And that applies to other countries too.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:25 AM

Not unless you're something over 90, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:37 PM

Doug is a hundred and nineteen, Greg. He's living proof that conservatism aids longevity! (joke, okay?) :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:15 PM

Right, L.H., I'm conserved!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM

Conserved sounds all sweet and jammy. I've detected a touch of vinegar at times. Pickled is maybe a better epithet...


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM

Who would ever have thought that G.W.'s press conference would still be getting attention 9 days later?

Man! Talk about charisma!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM

You're right, McGrath! Sometimes I'm pickled too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 05:06 PM

Who the hell is talking about the Dubya Shrub? The thread is continuing, not the conversation about the unimpressed conference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM

Finding your own faults and weaknesses is the only way to improve yourself.

One of the biggest problems today is most Americans do not care about foriegn policy, and how the world sees us. They feel they have their own problems trying to live the american dream. They prefer to be blind and ignorant of anything outside of their little bubble, and would like to let the gov't make all the decisions. The gov't is supposed to listen to what the people want. When people don't care, and don't know what's really going on the gov't is free to do as it wishes. Politicians on both sides of the fence are paid by lobbiests to make decisions in their favor.

Don't be hearded like a sheep. Fight the urge to be ignorant. Don't just rely on what you see in the news and CNN and 700club. See through propaganda. Question the news' sources, and who owns/backs the media you're listening to. Try to get the whole picture before you make a decision, and be open to changing your opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

Well said, Be#. Recent reading has caused me to understand the extent of the destruction of Egypt's economy. This is not the Egypt of even twenty years ago, which would have been about the last time I looked. According to last Sunday's NY Times, lawyers and engineers and a quite broad base of educated people are working for $30.00 to $100.00 per month and working additional menial jobs to meet basic needs. Somewhere close to half of the population is under twenty five. Just one small piece of a much more complicated puzzle, I realize.

According to the same source, working poor of Pakistan send tens of thousands of their kids for strict Koranic learning, in facilities where they are indoctrinated with ideas that Jews knocked down the WTC to make Muslims get a bad rap, and that the Hindus are no worse than the Jews. (The article was pretty good and identifying people who were willing to acknowledge such beliefs and teachings.)

A constant source of amazement to me is realizing that but for the luck of birth geography, I would have been one of those ignorant hate filled ragamuffins. A blond one, admittedly, but otherwise exactly the same as the kids in the photographs.

I am also amazed at the ability of the U.S. federal government in running such an efficient military machine (disregarding the "cost" factor in efficiency; I guess effective was the word I was looking for, though people would criticize the hell out of that one as well), when in all other matters, domestic and foreign, one can expect to see sloth and inefficiency as the norm.

What a terrible mess. I want bin Laden and a thousand or ten of his closest associates "taken out" of the game, but, oh what a mess. (There are many who believe the Afghhani citizenry would not tolerate a multinational peacekeeping force, even if wholly comprised of Muslims.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:50 PM

"the Hindus are no worse than the Jews" - they aren't are they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:58 PM

Oh, thanks, sorry. It was: "And the Hindus are just as bad." My head is imploding, perhaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM

It's funny how every religion get's generalized when these topics are discussed (not that I doubt that's what gets taught in those radical islamic learning centers).

Every religion has a "fundamentalist" (extremist) group. Islam has the Taliban. Judaism has Zionists Christianity has Phalangists.

These are just one example of each, although I only know of that one for the Jewish faith. I don't know enough about Hinduism to say other than they're supposed to be pacifists. That is sad on my part. My neighbor is Hindu.

In any case extremeist groups, as shown through history, are generally the ones to do terrible acts against humanity in the name of their god. This in turn causes other factions to hate the religion as a whole. Being raised in a christian home I detest what the Phalangists have done in the name of God (Sabra and Shatila massacres), and would passionately dispute anyone accusing them of representing christianity as a whole. Don't mistake the views and actions of a radical few for the beliefs of the whole. Especially in the case of these 3 such large groups.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:09 PM

Ummmm...first GUEST up there...I was joking about the charisma, okay?

Some good points up there about how if we were born in a different culture, we'd see it a whole lot differently. This is something one needs to be aware of, before routinely demonizing the chosen "enemy" of the day.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:55 PM

DougR,

I've been following alot of the links I have found about the School of the Americas. I suppose they are right, there are graduates that have done horrible acts. So following that logic, we should close down the law enforcement (there are many corrupt cops, some actually killed people that didn't deserve it), Ban any form of organized religion (religion has been used as an excuse for so many crimes), ban the national guard (People so love to throw the words Kent State around), Ban Lawyers (Not a bad idea, after all, some knowingly get guilty people out of trouble). Ban Judges (Some actually took bribes). Ban the Government (They have lied in the past to us and have always turned a blind eye towards the suffering of others).

My point is... I don't read into the propaganda of either side. Sure, people left the school of the Americas and commited horrible crimes. But, is that the school or the individual? I would say it is the individual that chooses his 'moral path' and is the one that should be held accountable for his/her actions.

But what is the fun in all that, after all, if we all hold ourselves accountable. Then we would have no leg to stand on when condemning people that do not believe as we do. I still see posts, from time to time, railing on about how Gore won the election. Never mind the electorial college, never mind the constitution, Never mind the arguments that raged about it before because now our guy lost. Now you have to blame those regan appointed judges, the currupt counters, the machines... never yourself... did you hold up a sign, did you help others register to vote, did you talk about politics to try to sway friends, did you do anything other than cast your ballot (or not!). If all you did was your duty to vote, then perhaps you should shoulder part of that blame yourself. Not just with the election, but with all things. People do choose to be uninformed, or informed only on what they need. Choose to be a little different. Choose to look at all sides, not just a political stand your party takes. I see alot of that here, on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:32 PM

Don't expect any argument from me, Just a Nobody.

CarolC, where are you???

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:37 PM

I'm sure if Bin Laden gets to trial, that kind of argument about his training camps is going to be exactly along those lines, nobody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM

Right--we should hold individuals accountable but not governments who murder 80,000 of their own citizens (El Salvador). Not the death squads of Latin America. Not those who overthrow democratically elected governments. All done with the assistance and support of the US government, the CIA, and the School of the Americas.

I'm sure it was just a few bad apples that have been responsible for the killing fields in Latin America since the 1980s. Just a few bad apples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:33 PM

DougR, I'm tired. You wouldn't want to take advantage of a poor, worn out, tired person who just had a fantastic time at a folk music weekend getaway, and is currently enjoying the strange and mysterious environs of Mudcat headquarters, and who will be having the time of her life at the concert and radio show at the Iron Hill Brewery tomorrow night, would you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:55 PM

Guest,

I would say that you can hold a government responsible, or any organization for that matter. Because even though I believe in individual responsibility, I do see how governments will condone those sort of behaviors. I have seen little direct evidence against the School of the Americas, other than a connection that some, not the majority, but some, were trained there. I looked on the SOAW sites, I found little other than acusations without fact. In all honesty, they did a piss poor job of educating the public to the School of Assassination. The point I was trying to make, Guest, is that people that say it trains terrorists are correct. The military trains terrorists all the time. There are thousands of demolitions experts, marksmen, chemists and so on, all trained by the military. Thier purpose is simple, defend, support, and kill. Very, very, simple. But that does not make their training evil, or as one poster remarked "They are Terrorists" There is a huge difference between guerilla warfare and ramming an airplane into a sky scraper. There is a huge difference between attacking a military target and planting a carbomb in a shopping district. Yes, I hold the individual responsible for thier actions. I also hold those that encourage their skills and training to be used intentionally against the innocent. So yes, I would say the governments and the leaders of groups could be just as easily to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM

nobody, I congratulate the upon the steps you have taken toward a better understanding. Still, I know of no great humanitarian achievments of the School of the Americas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:27 PM

That is not thier purpose or thier goal... Donuel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM

Damn straight, "nobody". Their purpose and their goal is victory.

However, the purpose or goal of an enlightened individual (I believe) is to improve the condition of all humanity, not just the people in his own particular special interest group or nation.

This is why enlightened individuals tend to sometimes end up getting shot (Gandhi) or crucified (Christ), unless they restrict their activities to a few quiet Ashrams and stay out of the mainstream of social action.

I regard the CIA pretty much as I would regard the KGB or Al Queda...dangerous, secretive, partisan, and extremely unenlightened in their aims and objectives. I do not consider them legit simply because they are operating under the authority of an established government.

But if you're after victory, rather than brotherhood, then you will definitely find people like the CIA or the KGB extremely useful in pursuing your aims. And if you're after mere vengeance, then Al Queda will come through for you, as will the others.

To quibble then that one band of scoundrels is better than another strikes me as a diversion from much more important considerations on behalf of the whole human race. People everywhere need housing, medical care, jobs, decent pay levels, education, human rights, democracy, and basic freedoms. If as much effort was put into achieving that as has been put into achieving military and commercial supremacy, you would see a world transformation way beyond any of our past positive accomplishments.

If the United States were to stop allying itself with any dictator, oppressive regime, and corrupt monarch who dances according to their explicit instructions, and instead support actual positive social changes in the 3rd world, terrorists would soon find virtually no recruits to fill their ranks, and their reason for existence would be gone.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:15 AM

No way, Carol! Even I'm not that cruel! After I posted that "where are you Carol message" I learned where you are. Have a Ball, get rested up and get back into the ring when you are up to it!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:26 AM

Couldn't have said it better, Little Hawk.

As to "evidence" just a nobody--why are you so lazy? Why do you expect others to gather information to you and present it in a form amenable to you?

This information about what YOUR government, YOUR tax dollars have been doing in YOUR name in Latin America. Is it true? Is it lies and misinformation? An upstanding world citizen, let alone any American one, would find out. If it is true, they would try and do something to stop it. If it were a lie, they would expose it.

That is the price of freedom in a democratic society. Not how much an F-11 or a smart bomb costs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:03 PM

I totally agree Little Hawk. Imagine what the human race could accomplish if we all worked together. There's one problem with that. Greed. It will always exist as long as humans do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM

I once saw a John Wayne movie called "Hondo". He said to a young man, "Dont ever apologize, it's a sign of weakness." I wanted to puke.
Doug, nobody, Troll etc. the fact is, we started the terror ball rolling, and, as is often the case, it is now running over us. Remember, denial is more than a river in Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:46 PM

But Kendall. You offer no plans of action for the current situation! You only dwell on the sins of the past. 'Tis 2001, six thousand people have been killed in an attack on our country, others have died from the Anthrax attacks, which may or may not have been caused by the Terrorists; what would you do?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:21 PM

Let's all sing around the campfire:
How many sins must one nation own
before they beg peace from the world
yes and how many times must they stand and confess
before they won't take any more
the answer my friend is in Afghanistan
[last line fill it in any way you like] [this is too easy; I've got about ten verses already, but no one would like them except me. how many gallons of jet fuel, etc.]


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:32 PM

Guest

Did you actually read my post? I mentioned that I had followed several links and could not find anything to CONFIRM the accusations. So I come back and say that very thing and to you I am lazy... lets see... people will lay out an accusation without evidence then when someone says, "I don't see what you are seeing, please show me." They are lazy, or too stupid. Or perhaps, just perhaps, you don't have the evidence. It is far easier just to condemn those that do not agree rather than post something to help you prove your point, isn't it GUEST. Just so you know, I spent hours following links that others provided here. And I still could not find anything other than circumstantial evidence, that would tie them to many of the atrocities people are speaking of.

Little Hawk,

I hope you are not thinking that I am against the idea of brotherhood. But, who lays down the rules for brotherhood? Do we? Does the Middle East? The Soviets? China? Who would decide on what would constitute this brotherhood? I know most people would say, 'it would be built upon a common ground of human rights and equality.' That sounds great, but we have a variety of beliefs about human rights, don't we? Some cultures believe that female children can be killed, or that families don't have the right to have more than two children. Some cultures believe that women should not be seen by any man but thier husbands. Some Cultures believe in poligamy.... What do you do with those that will not give up thier culture? You think the middle east will just adopt your view of human rights? Do you think China will? Are you willing to live in a world where women would be treated only slightly better than those under the Taliban? After all, who is to say that their culture will not be the one that 'human rights' is modled after. Unless of course, you are talking about creating a new culture, where all other belief is tossed aside. You say you are 'enlightened' and that those that do not support a brotherhood of man is not. Enlightened is often not the same as realistic. I am a realist, while I may agree with you that the world could (stress could) be a better place, I am realistic enough to see the issues that prevent that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:32 PM

I would be doing everything in my power to turn the rest of the Muslim world against the Taliban. That would include feeding the common people, and, getting our troops off the sacred ground in Saudi Arabia. This is one of the biggest insults to the Taliban, and, there is no good reason to have them there anyway. (Unless you count oil) It will do little good to take out Bin Laden, it would be like cutting off one of the Hydras heads.

There is no way to really beat these bastards, all we can do is keep upping the ante, and they will do the same until we tire as we did in Viet Nam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:58 PM

Kendal, I really hope that you don't believe that our military presence is the only reason this is happening. The AlQuada are mercenaries, that have now proven that they can hit and damage, one of the strongest nations in the world (militarily speaking). Their stock is greatly increased. You think that pulling our troops out will disarm the situation. That is what the Phillipenes thought too... didn't end the terrorist attacks. Didn't stop people from being slaughtered. It only means we are farther away to intervene. But that's ok, I suppose, as long as we do not appear to be trying to dominate. Of course, Suadi Arabia did request the US to assist in defense. But that is nothing, means nothing. And what do you think Isreal would do if we pulled out of the middle east. What do you think the other countries that do not recognize thier Right to Exist will do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:52 AM

kendall: Your first sentence makes a lot of sense. We are already feeding the common people, but the Saudis don't really seem to mind our troops being based there so I don't understand why the Taliban has anything to do with that. They may not like it, but they don't control Saudi Arabia.

So you have tossed in your chips! Given up! Sad to hear. I doubt you know one Taliban folk song so you've got a lot of homework ahead of you if you are right in your suggestion that it is hopeless. That the terriorists can't be defeated.

I don't know for sure if this is true, but I've heard or read somewhere that Bin Laden can't abide folk music, and has vowed vengence on all folk singers in the state of Maine. According to the report, he had a friend who had three legs and word reached him that a folk singer in that state had recorded a song that he considered disrespectful of three legged people.

Good luck, old friend, he's probably gonna getcha' :>) DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:53 AM

"just a nobody" - Nope. I am not suggesting that you or anyone else on this forum is against brotherhood. I think we all share high ideals for humanity, we just don't agree on how to pursue them in the most effective way.

In discussions like these, I get caught between 2 considerations...

1. My own spiritual path in life.

2. Day to day practical matters.

You see, I believe I've already lived a great many lives. I don't believe that because I was brought up in some religion that told me so, either, I was brought up as a rational atheist. I had personal experiences later which convinced me of having lived previous lives.

Since I am now absolutely sure that my soul CANNOT die, though my body can and will, I tend to look way beyond just this mortal life. That's partly why I look far ahead to what human society could achieve in the way of brotherhood, and I am willing to wait a long time for it.

Having killed and been killed, I've had enough of it. Having been killed enough times, I also find it easier to forgive now, cos I know how transitory these events really are in the greater scheme of things. Souls simply cannot die.

I am the kind of person who would rather, at this point, be in a spiritual ashram, and work on my own inner development there in a quiet way. There are such places. But I have some other committments right now, so I haven't made that move yet.

It's hard for me to discuss political issues without bringing very long range viewpoints into them. I know that human nature is perfectable. I know that society is perfectable. I also know that we're a long way off at this juncture, but I've seen some general progress in my life. Quite a bit, actually. It's been offset, though, by commercial domination of people's lives that has gone way out of control.

I am always caught in the struggle of...okay...to what level do I take my comments on this subject, and it's kind of tricky, cos if people don't get it on the same level, then they may place the wrong interpretation entirely on what I say.

I hope that helps explain some of what may seem to be my far out statements here and there.

I feel sometimes like a very old immortal soul that's watching young, passionate people play what to me are tired old games...and I think "Why don't they just stop?" But to them, those games are real. The "patriot game" is one of them. Buying Gap clothing to be "cool" is another. There are a million games out there.

It would probably be easier to just believe it all and go along with the crowd and play too...but I can't do that anymore. I no longer care who wins the "World Series". It simply doesn't matter to me. For those to whom it does matter...well, by all means play the game or cheer the team, because that's your chosen path of experience, and that's your right by free will...and it probably suits you are serves you well.

And I'm not suggesting I'm better than any one of you...just on my own chosen path. Same as you.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 06:19 AM

hawk, You are to be commended as a man who thinks for himself. Some do not, probably parroting their favorite radio shows , religious dogma, media hype or platitudinous ignorance.
These times should concentrate the mind. Panic that disables action should be overcome. Hiding from reality of real possibilities should be overcome. In a chaotic episode you must tend to yourself. You can not expect any relief or to be taken care of for 1 - 6 months.
Do the terrorists/Taliban/Iraq/... have the ultimate bio weapons? YES they demonstrated their use of ebola (Criemean Hemmorragic fever) against a Northern Afghani settlement 24 days ago. The isolated town had over 100 fatalities. IT was a demonstration but not recognized as such by media. We are as a public being prepped by the media to cope with small pox. This is not a cruel hoax by our Government but the most likely scenario they dread.

The everything is fine attitude is a disservice to all but little children. If it is panic that will empty cities when a plague descends or common sense is for each of you to decide. Is it patriotic to try and save your life? Of course. Depending on your job whether you stay or go is a personal choice. Unless CDC blockades make certain egress difficult there will be few safe areas but none so dangerous as the cities.

An isolated small pox attack has been simulated by our military and it resulted in a 1,000,000 fatalities. This has been known since 1995 yet preparedness or defense against such scenarios is virtually ZERO. We instead kept playing with star wars.

Folk wisdom says its better to be safe than sorry. If you can't be completly safe at least you can be a bit prepared. There are things you can do.

If binary bio weapons, small pox and plague are used 10 -60 million casualties are anticipated - you may well be served with notions of reincarnation. ~ *G*

The anthrax letter campaign is a soabox derby compared to the Indy 500 of bio war with the agents mentioned above.

Metaphor of the day -
Pollyanna, I would like to introduce you to Pandora.


Bush said today "we will endure the evil one"
God am I sick of his childish, inaccurate use of language. I for one would like to do more than "endure" the evil one. I endure my in laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:08 AM

Just a nobody.

I don't need to prove a fucking thing to you or anyone else.

No one "proves" anything by shooting off their mouth in Internet discussion forums about how our way is the only way, or by providing a few links to other websites.

I've worked for Central American solidarity organizations since 1980. You, apparently, have read information posted at two websites.

I remain wholly unimpressed by your expertise in US foreign policy in relation to current and past events, particularly in light of the fact that you are pig ignorant of the most recent US military and intelligence adventurism in Latin America.

Any American who is that blind stupid ain't worth the time or the effort to inform, as they've already decided it doesn't matter what gross injustices, what illegal, unethical, inhumane acts the US government foists upon innocent civilians around the world--its MY country right or wrong. It is clear to me you'd rather have greedy militarists interested in making the big war bucks do your thinking for you. And isn't that just fine?

Fuck you and the rest of you blood-thirsty good old boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:29 PM

Donuel - Your post goes off in a few different directions, so I'm wondering what to say about it...?

Let's say that a deadly epidemic is started, as you suggest, in North America. How far would it spread and how fast? Would it not quite likely spread through air travel right across to Europe, Africa, Asia, etc...right round the world?

How do you suggest a person should respond to such an event...or to the possibility of such an event?

I'm not inclined to panic, because I don't see what good it would do.

Besides, ordinary life is burdensome enough at times, without panicking about things that haven't happened yet and may not happen.

But, anyway, what specific courses of action are you recommending to people?

- LH

p.s. Like you, I "endure" my relatives. :-) I wonder if Bin Laden has used the term "endure" with regard to Bush? Probably not, I suspect...not dramatic enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM

Donuel would you please cite sources for the ebola "demonstration" and the "isolated smallpox attack"? I'm not from Missouri but you're gonna hafta show me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM

See Bush is still Talking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 05:02 PM

Doug, I am a Taurus. We do not "give up" However, I am a thinking Taurus, and, my brain tells me this is going to be anything but a walk in the park. History has shown that upping the ante only leads to upping the ante. It's too bad that most people either hate history, or simply dont bother with it. I see another Viet Nam coming up, and, I have a 17 years old grand son. Also Doug, I'm pleased to see that you are showing your sense of humor!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Just a nobody
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM

GUEST,BE#

"Every religion has a "fundamentalist" (extremist) group. Islam has the Taliban. Judaism has Zionists Christianity has Phalangists" ??

There are Jewish fundamentalists who are fanatics and extremists- but not all Zionists are fundamentalist fanatics. Zionism simply means love of and support for the Jewish State. The vast majority of Zionists recoil from fundamentalism, and extremism. I am a Zionist who is opposed to the occupation of Palestinian areas,and to war.So are most of the other Zionists I know.

Jack The Lad


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 06:25 PM

Has the problem with slow browsers been corrected? Why is this thread at 168 posts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM

I'm curious, L.H. In any of your former lives, did you ever run into Shirley McClain?

Kendall: Don't say I didn't warn you! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:25 PM

Kim, no problem, I will get the Reuters link for you. It was explained away as something that happens in that part of the world.

Little hawk your post regarding the School for the Americas is terrific. I would like to quote you.

As for my post that went in different directions , it was due to copying my post from another site and pasting it here for reference.

Guest, relax, I went from pillar to post with 'just a nobody' and have discovered a Jeckle and Hyde quality in his posts. Don't take it personally even if he does.

In another direction, I heard it said it took 17 years of investigation to nab the unibomber. Then his brother turned him in. Perhaps by 2018 we will hve the anthrax letter bomber. A clue to me however is how much they sound like they were written by domestic black muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

An isolated small pox attack has been simulated by our military and it resulted in a 1,000,000 fatalities. This has been known since 1995 yet preparedness or defense against such scenarios is virtually ZERO.

I'm with Carol, Donuel. Please document the above statement. You say 'simulated'; does that mean that it was a 'virtual' exercise that projected that number of deaths?

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:07 PM

Yes it was a military/CDC exercise with projected deaths. A contagion with a 5 day incubation period creates an exponential number of exposures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:12 PM

Afghan ebola link. this was the first one I came by. there are others.
http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml%3B$sessionid$LABNQ1QAACAF1QFIQMFCFG%20GAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:49 PM

I assume the CDC/Military information upon which you base your post, Donuel, is public information, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:18 AM

Donuel why are you so certain the e-bola outbreak was something more than - an e-bola outbreak? It isn't like Afghanistan has the best sanitary conditions or anything like that. I mean, sure, you could be right - but it could also be nothing more than a cruel coincidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:11 PM

Doug - I haven't even run into Shirley MacLaine in this life! (But I have a tremendous amount of respect for her.)

In my other lives I've run into millions of people, but I can't give you any of their names whatsoever...can't remember 'em at this point. I have dealt with certain individuals before, however...my parents, for example. The circumstances were quite different from now on the surface, but rather similar underneath the surface. I've been Mexican, German, British, Amerinidian, Roman, Japanese, male, female, and God knows what else besides.

And that is all I'm telling you. :-)

- LH

p.s. I am unaware of ever having met anyone who is presently famous in any previous life. I know that's dull and unexciting, but is it all that surprising?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:21 PM

The School of the Americas has been shut down. There is a new organization in its place. I've seen its charter. The Army has learned much from its mistakes. The new institute seems to be more about teaching young officers from other countries US values and the benefits of military cooperation with the US than anything else. Future classes will include Canadians.

Its not about being perfect. Its what you do when you screw up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:18 PM

School of the Americas shut down? I don't think so Jack. Renamed, yes. Shut down? No way.

Annual protest will go on, as always, the weekend of November 16th near Ft. Benning. See School of the Americas Watch website for details and information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:51 AM

L.H.: How about Kendall? Did you ever run into him in one of your previous lives? He was a Barbary pirate at one time I've been told. He reportedly raveged and despoiled all manner of beings on the high seas (which probably explains his penchant for four legged critters today). :>)

GUEST: there would probably be an annual protest EVEN if it has been shut down. Those folks have to do something to keep busy on weekends, don't they?

DougR


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