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BS: Bush's press conference last night.

DougR 26 Oct 01 - 01:51 AM
GUEST 25 Oct 01 - 06:18 PM
Jack the Sailor 25 Oct 01 - 04:21 PM
Little Hawk 25 Oct 01 - 03:11 PM
Kim C 25 Oct 01 - 11:18 AM
DougR 24 Oct 01 - 11:49 PM
Donuel 24 Oct 01 - 11:12 PM
Donuel 24 Oct 01 - 11:07 PM
Ebbie 24 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM
Donuel 24 Oct 01 - 08:25 PM
DougR 24 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Oct 01 - 06:25 PM
Jack The Lad 24 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM
GUEST,Just a nobody 24 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM
kendall 24 Oct 01 - 05:02 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 24 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM
Little Hawk 24 Oct 01 - 01:29 PM
GUEST 24 Oct 01 - 07:08 AM
Donuel 24 Oct 01 - 06:19 AM
Little Hawk 24 Oct 01 - 01:53 AM
DougR 24 Oct 01 - 12:52 AM
GUEST,just a nobody 23 Oct 01 - 10:58 PM
kendall 23 Oct 01 - 10:32 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 23 Oct 01 - 10:32 PM
GUEST, I, hurricane 23 Oct 01 - 10:21 PM
DougR 23 Oct 01 - 09:46 PM
kendall 23 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM
GUEST,BE# 23 Oct 01 - 08:03 PM
GUEST 23 Oct 01 - 07:26 AM
DougR 23 Oct 01 - 01:15 AM
Little Hawk 22 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 22 Oct 01 - 10:27 PM
Donuel 22 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 22 Oct 01 - 08:55 PM
CarolC 22 Oct 01 - 08:33 PM
GUEST 22 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 01 - 07:37 PM
DougR 22 Oct 01 - 07:32 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 22 Oct 01 - 06:55 PM
Little Hawk 22 Oct 01 - 06:09 PM
GUEST,BE# 22 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM
GUEST, I, hurricane 22 Oct 01 - 04:58 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Oct 01 - 04:50 PM
GUEST, I, hurricane 22 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,BE# 22 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM
GUEST 21 Oct 01 - 05:06 PM
DougR 21 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM
Little Hawk 21 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM

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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:51 AM

L.H.: How about Kendall? Did you ever run into him in one of your previous lives? He was a Barbary pirate at one time I've been told. He reportedly raveged and despoiled all manner of beings on the high seas (which probably explains his penchant for four legged critters today). :>)

GUEST: there would probably be an annual protest EVEN if it has been shut down. Those folks have to do something to keep busy on weekends, don't they?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:18 PM

School of the Americas shut down? I don't think so Jack. Renamed, yes. Shut down? No way.

Annual protest will go on, as always, the weekend of November 16th near Ft. Benning. See School of the Americas Watch website for details and information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:21 PM

The School of the Americas has been shut down. There is a new organization in its place. I've seen its charter. The Army has learned much from its mistakes. The new institute seems to be more about teaching young officers from other countries US values and the benefits of military cooperation with the US than anything else. Future classes will include Canadians.

Its not about being perfect. Its what you do when you screw up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:11 PM

Doug - I haven't even run into Shirley MacLaine in this life! (But I have a tremendous amount of respect for her.)

In my other lives I've run into millions of people, but I can't give you any of their names whatsoever...can't remember 'em at this point. I have dealt with certain individuals before, however...my parents, for example. The circumstances were quite different from now on the surface, but rather similar underneath the surface. I've been Mexican, German, British, Amerinidian, Roman, Japanese, male, female, and God knows what else besides.

And that is all I'm telling you. :-)

- LH

p.s. I am unaware of ever having met anyone who is presently famous in any previous life. I know that's dull and unexciting, but is it all that surprising?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:18 AM

Donuel why are you so certain the e-bola outbreak was something more than - an e-bola outbreak? It isn't like Afghanistan has the best sanitary conditions or anything like that. I mean, sure, you could be right - but it could also be nothing more than a cruel coincidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:49 PM

I assume the CDC/Military information upon which you base your post, Donuel, is public information, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:12 PM

Afghan ebola link. this was the first one I came by. there are others.
http://portal.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml%3B$sessionid$LABNQ1QAACAF1QFIQMFCFG%20GAVCBQYIV0?xml=/news/2001/10/04/wref04.xml&sSheet=/news/2001/10/04/ixhome.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:07 PM

Yes it was a military/CDC exercise with projected deaths. A contagion with a 5 day incubation period creates an exponential number of exposures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

An isolated small pox attack has been simulated by our military and it resulted in a 1,000,000 fatalities. This has been known since 1995 yet preparedness or defense against such scenarios is virtually ZERO.

I'm with Carol, Donuel. Please document the above statement. You say 'simulated'; does that mean that it was a 'virtual' exercise that projected that number of deaths?

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:25 PM

Kim, no problem, I will get the Reuters link for you. It was explained away as something that happens in that part of the world.

Little hawk your post regarding the School for the Americas is terrific. I would like to quote you.

As for my post that went in different directions , it was due to copying my post from another site and pasting it here for reference.

Guest, relax, I went from pillar to post with 'just a nobody' and have discovered a Jeckle and Hyde quality in his posts. Don't take it personally even if he does.

In another direction, I heard it said it took 17 years of investigation to nab the unibomber. Then his brother turned him in. Perhaps by 2018 we will hve the anthrax letter bomber. A clue to me however is how much they sound like they were written by domestic black muslims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM

I'm curious, L.H. In any of your former lives, did you ever run into Shirley McClain?

Kendall: Don't say I didn't warn you! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 06:25 PM

Has the problem with slow browsers been corrected? Why is this thread at 168 posts?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack The Lad
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 05:50 PM

GUEST,BE#

"Every religion has a "fundamentalist" (extremist) group. Islam has the Taliban. Judaism has Zionists Christianity has Phalangists" ??

There are Jewish fundamentalists who are fanatics and extremists- but not all Zionists are fundamentalist fanatics. Zionism simply means love of and support for the Jewish State. The vast majority of Zionists recoil from fundamentalism, and extremism. I am a Zionist who is opposed to the occupation of Palestinian areas,and to war.So are most of the other Zionists I know.

Jack The Lad


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Just a nobody
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 05:02 PM

Doug, I am a Taurus. We do not "give up" However, I am a thinking Taurus, and, my brain tells me this is going to be anything but a walk in the park. History has shown that upping the ante only leads to upping the ante. It's too bad that most people either hate history, or simply dont bother with it. I see another Viet Nam coming up, and, I have a 17 years old grand son. Also Doug, I'm pleased to see that you are showing your sense of humor!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM

See Bush is still Talking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:41 PM

Donuel would you please cite sources for the ebola "demonstration" and the "isolated smallpox attack"? I'm not from Missouri but you're gonna hafta show me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:29 PM

Donuel - Your post goes off in a few different directions, so I'm wondering what to say about it...?

Let's say that a deadly epidemic is started, as you suggest, in North America. How far would it spread and how fast? Would it not quite likely spread through air travel right across to Europe, Africa, Asia, etc...right round the world?

How do you suggest a person should respond to such an event...or to the possibility of such an event?

I'm not inclined to panic, because I don't see what good it would do.

Besides, ordinary life is burdensome enough at times, without panicking about things that haven't happened yet and may not happen.

But, anyway, what specific courses of action are you recommending to people?

- LH

p.s. Like you, I "endure" my relatives. :-) I wonder if Bin Laden has used the term "endure" with regard to Bush? Probably not, I suspect...not dramatic enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:08 AM

Just a nobody.

I don't need to prove a fucking thing to you or anyone else.

No one "proves" anything by shooting off their mouth in Internet discussion forums about how our way is the only way, or by providing a few links to other websites.

I've worked for Central American solidarity organizations since 1980. You, apparently, have read information posted at two websites.

I remain wholly unimpressed by your expertise in US foreign policy in relation to current and past events, particularly in light of the fact that you are pig ignorant of the most recent US military and intelligence adventurism in Latin America.

Any American who is that blind stupid ain't worth the time or the effort to inform, as they've already decided it doesn't matter what gross injustices, what illegal, unethical, inhumane acts the US government foists upon innocent civilians around the world--its MY country right or wrong. It is clear to me you'd rather have greedy militarists interested in making the big war bucks do your thinking for you. And isn't that just fine?

Fuck you and the rest of you blood-thirsty good old boys.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 06:19 AM

hawk, You are to be commended as a man who thinks for himself. Some do not, probably parroting their favorite radio shows , religious dogma, media hype or platitudinous ignorance.
These times should concentrate the mind. Panic that disables action should be overcome. Hiding from reality of real possibilities should be overcome. In a chaotic episode you must tend to yourself. You can not expect any relief or to be taken care of for 1 - 6 months.
Do the terrorists/Taliban/Iraq/... have the ultimate bio weapons? YES they demonstrated their use of ebola (Criemean Hemmorragic fever) against a Northern Afghani settlement 24 days ago. The isolated town had over 100 fatalities. IT was a demonstration but not recognized as such by media. We are as a public being prepped by the media to cope with small pox. This is not a cruel hoax by our Government but the most likely scenario they dread.

The everything is fine attitude is a disservice to all but little children. If it is panic that will empty cities when a plague descends or common sense is for each of you to decide. Is it patriotic to try and save your life? Of course. Depending on your job whether you stay or go is a personal choice. Unless CDC blockades make certain egress difficult there will be few safe areas but none so dangerous as the cities.

An isolated small pox attack has been simulated by our military and it resulted in a 1,000,000 fatalities. This has been known since 1995 yet preparedness or defense against such scenarios is virtually ZERO. We instead kept playing with star wars.

Folk wisdom says its better to be safe than sorry. If you can't be completly safe at least you can be a bit prepared. There are things you can do.

If binary bio weapons, small pox and plague are used 10 -60 million casualties are anticipated - you may well be served with notions of reincarnation. ~ *G*

The anthrax letter campaign is a soabox derby compared to the Indy 500 of bio war with the agents mentioned above.

Metaphor of the day -
Pollyanna, I would like to introduce you to Pandora.


Bush said today "we will endure the evil one"
God am I sick of his childish, inaccurate use of language. I for one would like to do more than "endure" the evil one. I endure my in laws.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 01:53 AM

"just a nobody" - Nope. I am not suggesting that you or anyone else on this forum is against brotherhood. I think we all share high ideals for humanity, we just don't agree on how to pursue them in the most effective way.

In discussions like these, I get caught between 2 considerations...

1. My own spiritual path in life.

2. Day to day practical matters.

You see, I believe I've already lived a great many lives. I don't believe that because I was brought up in some religion that told me so, either, I was brought up as a rational atheist. I had personal experiences later which convinced me of having lived previous lives.

Since I am now absolutely sure that my soul CANNOT die, though my body can and will, I tend to look way beyond just this mortal life. That's partly why I look far ahead to what human society could achieve in the way of brotherhood, and I am willing to wait a long time for it.

Having killed and been killed, I've had enough of it. Having been killed enough times, I also find it easier to forgive now, cos I know how transitory these events really are in the greater scheme of things. Souls simply cannot die.

I am the kind of person who would rather, at this point, be in a spiritual ashram, and work on my own inner development there in a quiet way. There are such places. But I have some other committments right now, so I haven't made that move yet.

It's hard for me to discuss political issues without bringing very long range viewpoints into them. I know that human nature is perfectable. I know that society is perfectable. I also know that we're a long way off at this juncture, but I've seen some general progress in my life. Quite a bit, actually. It's been offset, though, by commercial domination of people's lives that has gone way out of control.

I am always caught in the struggle of...okay...to what level do I take my comments on this subject, and it's kind of tricky, cos if people don't get it on the same level, then they may place the wrong interpretation entirely on what I say.

I hope that helps explain some of what may seem to be my far out statements here and there.

I feel sometimes like a very old immortal soul that's watching young, passionate people play what to me are tired old games...and I think "Why don't they just stop?" But to them, those games are real. The "patriot game" is one of them. Buying Gap clothing to be "cool" is another. There are a million games out there.

It would probably be easier to just believe it all and go along with the crowd and play too...but I can't do that anymore. I no longer care who wins the "World Series". It simply doesn't matter to me. For those to whom it does matter...well, by all means play the game or cheer the team, because that's your chosen path of experience, and that's your right by free will...and it probably suits you are serves you well.

And I'm not suggesting I'm better than any one of you...just on my own chosen path. Same as you.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:52 AM

kendall: Your first sentence makes a lot of sense. We are already feeding the common people, but the Saudis don't really seem to mind our troops being based there so I don't understand why the Taliban has anything to do with that. They may not like it, but they don't control Saudi Arabia.

So you have tossed in your chips! Given up! Sad to hear. I doubt you know one Taliban folk song so you've got a lot of homework ahead of you if you are right in your suggestion that it is hopeless. That the terriorists can't be defeated.

I don't know for sure if this is true, but I've heard or read somewhere that Bin Laden can't abide folk music, and has vowed vengence on all folk singers in the state of Maine. According to the report, he had a friend who had three legs and word reached him that a folk singer in that state had recorded a song that he considered disrespectful of three legged people.

Good luck, old friend, he's probably gonna getcha' :>) DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:58 PM

Kendal, I really hope that you don't believe that our military presence is the only reason this is happening. The AlQuada are mercenaries, that have now proven that they can hit and damage, one of the strongest nations in the world (militarily speaking). Their stock is greatly increased. You think that pulling our troops out will disarm the situation. That is what the Phillipenes thought too... didn't end the terrorist attacks. Didn't stop people from being slaughtered. It only means we are farther away to intervene. But that's ok, I suppose, as long as we do not appear to be trying to dominate. Of course, Suadi Arabia did request the US to assist in defense. But that is nothing, means nothing. And what do you think Isreal would do if we pulled out of the middle east. What do you think the other countries that do not recognize thier Right to Exist will do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:32 PM

I would be doing everything in my power to turn the rest of the Muslim world against the Taliban. That would include feeding the common people, and, getting our troops off the sacred ground in Saudi Arabia. This is one of the biggest insults to the Taliban, and, there is no good reason to have them there anyway. (Unless you count oil) It will do little good to take out Bin Laden, it would be like cutting off one of the Hydras heads.

There is no way to really beat these bastards, all we can do is keep upping the ante, and they will do the same until we tire as we did in Viet Nam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:32 PM

Guest

Did you actually read my post? I mentioned that I had followed several links and could not find anything to CONFIRM the accusations. So I come back and say that very thing and to you I am lazy... lets see... people will lay out an accusation without evidence then when someone says, "I don't see what you are seeing, please show me." They are lazy, or too stupid. Or perhaps, just perhaps, you don't have the evidence. It is far easier just to condemn those that do not agree rather than post something to help you prove your point, isn't it GUEST. Just so you know, I spent hours following links that others provided here. And I still could not find anything other than circumstantial evidence, that would tie them to many of the atrocities people are speaking of.

Little Hawk,

I hope you are not thinking that I am against the idea of brotherhood. But, who lays down the rules for brotherhood? Do we? Does the Middle East? The Soviets? China? Who would decide on what would constitute this brotherhood? I know most people would say, 'it would be built upon a common ground of human rights and equality.' That sounds great, but we have a variety of beliefs about human rights, don't we? Some cultures believe that female children can be killed, or that families don't have the right to have more than two children. Some cultures believe that women should not be seen by any man but thier husbands. Some Cultures believe in poligamy.... What do you do with those that will not give up thier culture? You think the middle east will just adopt your view of human rights? Do you think China will? Are you willing to live in a world where women would be treated only slightly better than those under the Taliban? After all, who is to say that their culture will not be the one that 'human rights' is modled after. Unless of course, you are talking about creating a new culture, where all other belief is tossed aside. You say you are 'enlightened' and that those that do not support a brotherhood of man is not. Enlightened is often not the same as realistic. I am a realist, while I may agree with you that the world could (stress could) be a better place, I am realistic enough to see the issues that prevent that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:21 PM

Let's all sing around the campfire:
How many sins must one nation own
before they beg peace from the world
yes and how many times must they stand and confess
before they won't take any more
the answer my friend is in Afghanistan
[last line fill it in any way you like] [this is too easy; I've got about ten verses already, but no one would like them except me. how many gallons of jet fuel, etc.]


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:46 PM

But Kendall. You offer no plans of action for the current situation! You only dwell on the sins of the past. 'Tis 2001, six thousand people have been killed in an attack on our country, others have died from the Anthrax attacks, which may or may not have been caused by the Terrorists; what would you do?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:06 PM

I once saw a John Wayne movie called "Hondo". He said to a young man, "Dont ever apologize, it's a sign of weakness." I wanted to puke.
Doug, nobody, Troll etc. the fact is, we started the terror ball rolling, and, as is often the case, it is now running over us. Remember, denial is more than a river in Africa.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:03 PM

I totally agree Little Hawk. Imagine what the human race could accomplish if we all worked together. There's one problem with that. Greed. It will always exist as long as humans do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:26 AM

Couldn't have said it better, Little Hawk.

As to "evidence" just a nobody--why are you so lazy? Why do you expect others to gather information to you and present it in a form amenable to you?

This information about what YOUR government, YOUR tax dollars have been doing in YOUR name in Latin America. Is it true? Is it lies and misinformation? An upstanding world citizen, let alone any American one, would find out. If it is true, they would try and do something to stop it. If it were a lie, they would expose it.

That is the price of freedom in a democratic society. Not how much an F-11 or a smart bomb costs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 01:15 AM

No way, Carol! Even I'm not that cruel! After I posted that "where are you Carol message" I learned where you are. Have a Ball, get rested up and get back into the ring when you are up to it!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM

Damn straight, "nobody". Their purpose and their goal is victory.

However, the purpose or goal of an enlightened individual (I believe) is to improve the condition of all humanity, not just the people in his own particular special interest group or nation.

This is why enlightened individuals tend to sometimes end up getting shot (Gandhi) or crucified (Christ), unless they restrict their activities to a few quiet Ashrams and stay out of the mainstream of social action.

I regard the CIA pretty much as I would regard the KGB or Al Queda...dangerous, secretive, partisan, and extremely unenlightened in their aims and objectives. I do not consider them legit simply because they are operating under the authority of an established government.

But if you're after victory, rather than brotherhood, then you will definitely find people like the CIA or the KGB extremely useful in pursuing your aims. And if you're after mere vengeance, then Al Queda will come through for you, as will the others.

To quibble then that one band of scoundrels is better than another strikes me as a diversion from much more important considerations on behalf of the whole human race. People everywhere need housing, medical care, jobs, decent pay levels, education, human rights, democracy, and basic freedoms. If as much effort was put into achieving that as has been put into achieving military and commercial supremacy, you would see a world transformation way beyond any of our past positive accomplishments.

If the United States were to stop allying itself with any dictator, oppressive regime, and corrupt monarch who dances according to their explicit instructions, and instead support actual positive social changes in the 3rd world, terrorists would soon find virtually no recruits to fill their ranks, and their reason for existence would be gone.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:27 PM

That is not thier purpose or thier goal... Donuel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM

nobody, I congratulate the upon the steps you have taken toward a better understanding. Still, I know of no great humanitarian achievments of the School of the Americas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:55 PM

Guest,

I would say that you can hold a government responsible, or any organization for that matter. Because even though I believe in individual responsibility, I do see how governments will condone those sort of behaviors. I have seen little direct evidence against the School of the Americas, other than a connection that some, not the majority, but some, were trained there. I looked on the SOAW sites, I found little other than acusations without fact. In all honesty, they did a piss poor job of educating the public to the School of Assassination. The point I was trying to make, Guest, is that people that say it trains terrorists are correct. The military trains terrorists all the time. There are thousands of demolitions experts, marksmen, chemists and so on, all trained by the military. Thier purpose is simple, defend, support, and kill. Very, very, simple. But that does not make their training evil, or as one poster remarked "They are Terrorists" There is a huge difference between guerilla warfare and ramming an airplane into a sky scraper. There is a huge difference between attacking a military target and planting a carbomb in a shopping district. Yes, I hold the individual responsible for thier actions. I also hold those that encourage their skills and training to be used intentionally against the innocent. So yes, I would say the governments and the leaders of groups could be just as easily to blame.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 08:33 PM

DougR, I'm tired. You wouldn't want to take advantage of a poor, worn out, tired person who just had a fantastic time at a folk music weekend getaway, and is currently enjoying the strange and mysterious environs of Mudcat headquarters, and who will be having the time of her life at the concert and radio show at the Iron Hill Brewery tomorrow night, would you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM

Right--we should hold individuals accountable but not governments who murder 80,000 of their own citizens (El Salvador). Not the death squads of Latin America. Not those who overthrow democratically elected governments. All done with the assistance and support of the US government, the CIA, and the School of the Americas.

I'm sure it was just a few bad apples that have been responsible for the killing fields in Latin America since the 1980s. Just a few bad apples.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:37 PM

I'm sure if Bin Laden gets to trial, that kind of argument about his training camps is going to be exactly along those lines, nobody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:32 PM

Don't expect any argument from me, Just a Nobody.

CarolC, where are you???

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:55 PM

DougR,

I've been following alot of the links I have found about the School of the Americas. I suppose they are right, there are graduates that have done horrible acts. So following that logic, we should close down the law enforcement (there are many corrupt cops, some actually killed people that didn't deserve it), Ban any form of organized religion (religion has been used as an excuse for so many crimes), ban the national guard (People so love to throw the words Kent State around), Ban Lawyers (Not a bad idea, after all, some knowingly get guilty people out of trouble). Ban Judges (Some actually took bribes). Ban the Government (They have lied in the past to us and have always turned a blind eye towards the suffering of others).

My point is... I don't read into the propaganda of either side. Sure, people left the school of the Americas and commited horrible crimes. But, is that the school or the individual? I would say it is the individual that chooses his 'moral path' and is the one that should be held accountable for his/her actions.

But what is the fun in all that, after all, if we all hold ourselves accountable. Then we would have no leg to stand on when condemning people that do not believe as we do. I still see posts, from time to time, railing on about how Gore won the election. Never mind the electorial college, never mind the constitution, Never mind the arguments that raged about it before because now our guy lost. Now you have to blame those regan appointed judges, the currupt counters, the machines... never yourself... did you hold up a sign, did you help others register to vote, did you talk about politics to try to sway friends, did you do anything other than cast your ballot (or not!). If all you did was your duty to vote, then perhaps you should shoulder part of that blame yourself. Not just with the election, but with all things. People do choose to be uninformed, or informed only on what they need. Choose to be a little different. Choose to look at all sides, not just a political stand your party takes. I see alot of that here, on both sides.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:09 PM

Ummmm...first GUEST up there...I was joking about the charisma, okay?

Some good points up there about how if we were born in a different culture, we'd see it a whole lot differently. This is something one needs to be aware of, before routinely demonizing the chosen "enemy" of the day.

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM

It's funny how every religion get's generalized when these topics are discussed (not that I doubt that's what gets taught in those radical islamic learning centers).

Every religion has a "fundamentalist" (extremist) group. Islam has the Taliban. Judaism has Zionists Christianity has Phalangists.

These are just one example of each, although I only know of that one for the Jewish faith. I don't know enough about Hinduism to say other than they're supposed to be pacifists. That is sad on my part. My neighbor is Hindu.

In any case extremeist groups, as shown through history, are generally the ones to do terrible acts against humanity in the name of their god. This in turn causes other factions to hate the religion as a whole. Being raised in a christian home I detest what the Phalangists have done in the name of God (Sabra and Shatila massacres), and would passionately dispute anyone accusing them of representing christianity as a whole. Don't mistake the views and actions of a radical few for the beliefs of the whole. Especially in the case of these 3 such large groups.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:58 PM

Oh, thanks, sorry. It was: "And the Hindus are just as bad." My head is imploding, perhaps.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 04:50 PM

"the Hindus are no worse than the Jews" - they aren't are they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST, I, hurricane
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

Well said, Be#. Recent reading has caused me to understand the extent of the destruction of Egypt's economy. This is not the Egypt of even twenty years ago, which would have been about the last time I looked. According to last Sunday's NY Times, lawyers and engineers and a quite broad base of educated people are working for $30.00 to $100.00 per month and working additional menial jobs to meet basic needs. Somewhere close to half of the population is under twenty five. Just one small piece of a much more complicated puzzle, I realize.

According to the same source, working poor of Pakistan send tens of thousands of their kids for strict Koranic learning, in facilities where they are indoctrinated with ideas that Jews knocked down the WTC to make Muslims get a bad rap, and that the Hindus are no worse than the Jews. (The article was pretty good and identifying people who were willing to acknowledge such beliefs and teachings.)

A constant source of amazement to me is realizing that but for the luck of birth geography, I would have been one of those ignorant hate filled ragamuffins. A blond one, admittedly, but otherwise exactly the same as the kids in the photographs.

I am also amazed at the ability of the U.S. federal government in running such an efficient military machine (disregarding the "cost" factor in efficiency; I guess effective was the word I was looking for, though people would criticize the hell out of that one as well), when in all other matters, domestic and foreign, one can expect to see sloth and inefficiency as the norm.

What a terrible mess. I want bin Laden and a thousand or ten of his closest associates "taken out" of the game, but, oh what a mess. (There are many who believe the Afghhani citizenry would not tolerate a multinational peacekeeping force, even if wholly comprised of Muslims.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST,BE#
Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM

Finding your own faults and weaknesses is the only way to improve yourself.

One of the biggest problems today is most Americans do not care about foriegn policy, and how the world sees us. They feel they have their own problems trying to live the american dream. They prefer to be blind and ignorant of anything outside of their little bubble, and would like to let the gov't make all the decisions. The gov't is supposed to listen to what the people want. When people don't care, and don't know what's really going on the gov't is free to do as it wishes. Politicians on both sides of the fence are paid by lobbiests to make decisions in their favor.

Don't be hearded like a sheep. Fight the urge to be ignorant. Don't just rely on what you see in the news and CNN and 700club. See through propaganda. Question the news' sources, and who owns/backs the media you're listening to. Try to get the whole picture before you make a decision, and be open to changing your opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 05:06 PM

Who the hell is talking about the Dubya Shrub? The thread is continuing, not the conversation about the unimpressed conference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: DougR
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 02:56 PM

You're right, McGrath! Sometimes I'm pickled too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM

Who would ever have thought that G.W.'s press conference would still be getting attention 9 days later?

Man! Talk about charisma!

- LH


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's press conference last night.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM

Conserved sounds all sweet and jammy. I've detected a touch of vinegar at times. Pickled is maybe a better epithet...


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