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BS: CIPRO

53 13 Oct 01 - 11:08 PM
wysiwyg 13 Oct 01 - 11:11 PM
53 13 Oct 01 - 11:13 PM
SINSULL 14 Oct 01 - 12:09 AM
Mark Cohen 14 Oct 01 - 12:50 AM
Peg 14 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM
GUEST 14 Oct 01 - 01:09 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 14 Oct 01 - 01:12 AM
wysiwyg 14 Oct 01 - 01:20 AM
Mark Cohen 14 Oct 01 - 01:49 AM
Jeri 14 Oct 01 - 02:22 AM
Steve in Idaho 14 Oct 01 - 02:32 AM
Donuel 14 Oct 01 - 07:58 AM
RangerSteve 14 Oct 01 - 09:14 AM
Steve in Idaho 14 Oct 01 - 11:29 AM
kimmers 14 Oct 01 - 11:29 AM
SINSULL 14 Oct 01 - 02:38 PM
Peg 14 Oct 01 - 08:39 PM
kimmers 14 Oct 01 - 08:42 PM
BlueJay 14 Oct 01 - 09:47 PM
BlueJay 15 Oct 01 - 02:38 AM
Donuel 15 Oct 01 - 06:35 AM
RangerSteve 15 Oct 01 - 08:02 AM
Kim C 15 Oct 01 - 01:39 PM
Mrrzy 15 Oct 01 - 01:45 PM
Ebbie 15 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM
Mark Cohen 15 Oct 01 - 02:13 PM
Kim C 15 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM
Donuel 15 Oct 01 - 05:57 PM
Jeri 15 Oct 01 - 06:12 PM

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Subject: CIPRO
From: 53
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 11:08 PM

do you think that we all should call our doctors and get CIPRO the new antiobiotic now being used to treat anthrax? mmmnnn. bob


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 11:11 PM

No, we should allow the public health authorities to do their job. How would you feel, having it, if someone else in another town was really sick and needed it?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: 53
Date: 13 Oct 01 - 11:13 PM

my thoughts exactly,if we all jump the gun the people who really need it might not be able to get it. bob


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:09 AM

My doctor told me two weeks ago that he has been giving people prescriptions for Cipro on demand. I laughed thinking it was funny. Maybe it is not quite as funny now but I have to believe that if I am diagnosed with anthrax the medication will be available. Hoarding it just in case seems both selfish and foolish...at this point.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 12:50 AM

I would hope that doctors are intelligent and responsible enough not to provide such on-demand prescriptions. Ah...wishful thinking...I heard on NPR that some pharmacies are experiencing a 500% increase in prescriptions for ciprofloxacin. Let's just hope they don't run out when you need it for a serious (non-anthrax) infection. One thing I've learned: never underestimate the foolishness of people, no matter how smart they are.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Peg
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM

taking antibiotics with no need to will only decrease resistance in the long run...


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:09 AM

It is available across the border, in abundance, same as valium in 10 mg tabs, and their cheap.

Don't worry, be happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:12 AM

Mark, you have given me a laugh today. But seriously, I have given up on trying to estimate the magnitude of people's ignorance of medicine and health. Have schools quit teaching biology, physiology, health related subjects? Industry, in efforts to find new markets, has convinced the booboiserie that germicidal soap is a must although doctors and health workers warn us that it helps organisms to mutate into forms that resist drugs, forcing the development of still newer drugs to catch up. Now I have a hard time finding liquid soap on the grocery shelves that is not labeled germicidal. The unnecessary overuse of vaccines contributes to the same spiral.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:20 AM

Yeah, OK, here's a scenario.

I get a scrip for it in advance most winters, for the annual ear infection I usually get. I'm allergic to so many antibiotics, and can't take decongestants, so nowadays the doc just lets me have a weekend's worth so I can start when the signs present, and THEN see her on Monday for an exam and the rest of the scrip... because other meds I take make the clearing out of an active ear infection SOOOO difficult that she's given up treating it less aggressively.

But imagine in today's climate... a friend worries that maybe she's been exposed to anthrax-- could I please give her mine? No.... that would be DUM.... she doesn't need my drugs, she needs a DOCTOR! ASAP!

But imagine my teenage step daughter starts a really bad ear infection over the weekend and can't get to see her doc-- it's real rural out here and it happens often... and I give her a dose to hold her till she can get a ride into town...

But she turns out to be allergic, and Poof! She's gone! Ooops!

There is a good reason why prescription meds are regulated, and only the good guys get to give them out. If they were something we could manage properly, they'd be over-the-counter meds!

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 01:49 AM

Well, actually, Susan, there's a good deal of fuzziness around that issue, though by and large it's true. I'm sure many people are aware that there's a drug that has so many serious side effects, and has caused so many illnesses and deaths, that it's highly unlikely it would ever be approved by the FDA if it were brought to the market today. It's called aspirin. On the other hand there are other drugs that are regulated by prescription but probably don't need to be. And, as noted above, the "good guys" don't always do the right thing. Still, although I'm biased, I think that by and large the system we have works fairly well.

Dicho, I couldn't agree with you more about "antibacterial" products. I'm just waiting for the "Oops!" to come out in a few years. And most people don't realize, of course, that antibiotics, or antibacterial Kleenex, are utterly ineffective against viruses, which cause the lion's share of infectious illnesses most of us experience.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Jeri
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 02:22 AM

Funny public health story. For a long time, liquid soaps were required in food service facilities because of a study that supposedly proved bar soap could spread germs. Guess what - the study was done by a leading manufacturer of liquid soap, and was later proven to be bogus. (Well, at the very least, the conclusions were wrong.) ALL soap is antibacterial - bar soap included. I'd think the chemicals in the "anti-bacterial" stuff are overkill.

On the subject of Cipro, consider this - if you're going to take Cipro because you're afraid you might be exposed to anthrax, you're going to be taking it every day until you stop being afraid. There's probably a much higher risk from taking the med than from anthrax.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 02:32 AM

Go to me local Veterinarian and get some packet antibiotic, put it in gel caps, take for 10 days. Cost? about $6. Wait! I've a fridge full of the stuff for my horses! Heck with the docs.

Steve

Any antibiotic will kill the stuff in the early stages.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 07:58 AM

Yep even plain ole penicillin


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: RangerSteve
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 09:14 AM

The chance that I'll hit a deer running in front of my car is a lot greater than getting anthrax. I can't afford a new car right now. And I've already had too many minor run-ins with deer. And as a law enforcement officer, I can think of plenty of things that can happen to me, but I can't worry about them. I'd become an alcoholic if I did. I refuse to add anthrax to the list. Most of us don't need to worry about anthrax. Just keep on living like you always have. You're not guaranteed a perfectly safe life, anyway, so you might as well have fun instead of fretting about what might happen to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 11:29 AM

Ranger Steve - Yep - Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: kimmers
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 11:29 AM

My mother gets words a little mixed up sometimes. When I talked to her yesterday, she asked, "Are you worried about that Amtrak thing?" Took me a minute...

Even here in Oregon, we're starting to get calls from parents asking for Cipro for their kids. Not one of the families has anything close to an exposure; most haven't left the state since before September 11. Most are honest and just state that they are terrible worried; some lie and try to get the med for other made-up reasons. We haven't given any out, of course; we refer them to the health department if they persist.

You can't worry about everything, and you can't spend your life in fear. I would rather live life fully and completely, even if I don't live to be 95.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 02:38 PM

kimmers - I put my son on an Amtrak train to Texas Friday. He was worried about the anthrax scare in NY. I was worried about the total lack of security at Penn Station when he checked his luggage - no search; no X-ray; just a picture ID required. He checked a 79# bag. It could have contained enough plastic explosives to blow downtown Chicago off the face of the map. I think your Mom knew what she was talking about.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Peg
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 08:39 PM

Colloidal silver is an excellent natural antibiotic; it does not destroy natural immunity even temporarily, and acts in a subtle way (take for a few days to kick in as opposed to most oral antibiotics acting almost immediately).


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: kimmers
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 08:42 PM

Hmmm... mebbe that's what the old gal was thinking of. 'Course, she, also pronounces 'Bavarian' as 'barbarian' ("Did you want one of those Barbarian cream cakes for your birthday, dear?") and cannot say 'cinnamon', 'alumininum' or countless other words.

Total BS: I hear a parent at least once a week say, "Would you take a look at his face? I think he's got infantigo!" (impetigo)


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: BlueJay
Date: 14 Oct 01 - 09:47 PM

Many medications have fairly short shelf lives, often six months to a year. I don't know about Cipro, but it seems quite likely that the medication will be expired before the need to use it arises. I'd rather begin a course of freshly made antibiotics than hope the old ones are still partially effective. Seems like a waste of time and money to me. Thanks, BlueJay


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: BlueJay
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 02:38 AM

And another thing. Frequently folks allergic to one drug in a particular classification of medications, are also allergic to similar drugs in the same class. So a guy stockpiling Cipro, (a fluoroquinolone class antibiotic), who has exhibited an allergy to Noroxin, (which is of the same classification), may be stockpiling a drug which could kill him just as effectively as the Anthrax he is trying to avoid. Unless effectively educated by their physicians, many people do not understand this cross-category probability of allergies, and even if so instructed may be unable to stay abreast of new drug developments.

Other antibiotics are available, such as tetracyclines, for people with fluoroquinolone allergies. The general public is not able to self-medicate with antibiotics. Health status, history, and cardiac, liver and kidney functions are needed to determine the right drug and dose. That's what doctors are for. Especially with high dose or long term usage.

So I'd recommend against buying Cipro from Mexico. If you think you have been exposed to anthrax, get thee to the local ER, or your personal physician. If your local Doc seems at all unfamiliar with anthrax, contact your local health department, or the CDC. Keep pushing till you find someone with answers. If you've been exposed to anthrax by respiration, you need to push hard. Death is not certain, but you don't have much time. Certainly not enough time to be running trials of outdated Cipro without medical evaluation. Thanks, BlueJay


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 06:35 AM

CIPRO is recommended WHY? [other antibiotics work even better] I will tell you. Because we are not likely to run out of CIPRO. WHY? because 90% of CIPRO goes in US cattle and chicken feed. WHY? Because it makes them grow faster. WHY? No one is really sure but it gets the meat to the market 3-6 weeks earlier which saves money. This of course leads to resistant microbes over the last 10 years. If you eat alot of chicken you can be sure you have a bit of resistence to Cipro regarding the killing of certain bacteria which has grown more aggressive as of late.

The amount of CIPRO in your store bought chicken is still shy of a therapeutic does. Anyway that is why we hear so much about CIPRO. Just thought you would like to know.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: RangerSteve
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 08:02 AM

Kimmers - do the old men out in your area have "prostrate" problems?


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 01:39 PM

Personally I ain't concerned about getting the anthrax.

Antibiotics seem to be really misunderstood by the population at large. People get a cold and run off to the doctor for antibiotics, and the doctors give it to 'em, even though an anti-bacterial won't kill a VIRUS.

I also detest antibiotics and will only take them if it is absolutely necessary. They seem to have the nasty side effect of upsetting your whole system.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Mrrzy
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 01:45 PM

Slight thread creep but I didn't want to start yet another American Attacks one - does anyone besides me think that these bioterrorists either a) are not too smart or b) were lied to by their suppliers of biological weapons? I mean, they are sending us something that ISN'T CONTAGIOUS - doesn't that kind of miss the point? Wouldn't it have made more sense to wait till the bioengineers had come up with a transmissible strain, at least? Which is why I think they were TOLD it was transmissible, and woe betide those sellers now?


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM

Kimmers, I grew up in Oregon and I clearly remember hearing about 'infantigo'. You gotta admit the name sounds kinder to non-medical people than anything alluding to an imp!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 02:13 PM

"Infantigo" is everywhere, Ebbie. I heard it in my residency in Philadelphia and I hear it in Hawaii. It's folk etymology...a common linguistic pattern: changing an unfamiliar word into something that seems to make more sense.

Once again, Donuel, I think you've hit the nail on the head. The agribusiness conglomerate is keeping very quiet about this. Most of the problem with antibiotic resistance that I deal with every day as a physician does not come from all my fellow docs prescribing too many antibiotics (though that certainly is a problem, and one that's slowly improving), but from the tons of antibiotics that are dumped into the food supply to "improve" the growth of farmed animals. Makes me glad I'm a vegetarian.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Kim C
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM

Now here's my other question: they keep talking about people being "exposed" to anthrax. That doesn't seem very specific to me. It's my understanding that one can be "exposed" to anthrax but not "exposed" to enough spores to cause an infection. I go feed my neighbor's sheep once in awhile. Perhaps I get "exposed" then. I don't know.

But I think this is something we need not get too edgy about. It isn't contagious, and is treatable.

So let's have a Coke and a smile and get on with it. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 05:57 PM

Thats IT ! *G* They'll put it in coke! ;-) just kidding.

Truth is one of bin Laden's holdings is a gum arabic factory that sells its product/ingredient to Coca Cola. no kidding.

There is a new set of laws to ban trade with certain countires etc. but I am not up to speed on all that it covers.


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Subject: RE: BS: CIPRO
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Oct 01 - 06:12 PM

The way they're using the term, it means someone has got the anthrax spores in their body. They aren't sick, and likely won't get sick now that they're getting treated. Would they ever have become ill? Who knows. The time between onset of symptoms is directly related to how much of the bacteria a person is exposed to - meaning how much they inhale. The more bacteria, the faster the symptoms show up (if they're going to show up at all).

One man died, and that, in itself, is a tragedy. If terrorists were trying to kill a lot of people and scare the living daylights out of Americans, it was a miserable failure. They've heightened awareness and the knowledge of the general population, and caused concern, but not terror. It may serve to reduce fear in the long run, when folks see how effective the response is, and how ineffective the attacks were.

I believe I've taken broad spectrum antibiotics three times in my adult life - for an ear infection, a sinus infection, and a suspected ulcer. Luckily, no doctor has ever tried prescribing them when I had an ordinary cold, although some friends have said "you oughtta see the dr and get some antibiotics." It's not just the fact taking unnecessary antibiotics can lead to micro-organisms developing resistance - They also tend to kill off the good micro-organisms our bodies need to work properly.

I believe one reason Cipro is recommended and is so widely available is that micro-organisms (whether in animals or people) have developed resistance to other antibiotics. Cipro is still relatively new. Give it a few years, and something else will be drug de jour.


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Mudcat time: 21 October 9:40 AM EDT

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