Origins: John Henry

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 03:28 PM

Erratum:

I wrote

"A few of Johnson's informants insisted that he was, in fact, white."

Not so, as far as my perusal of Johnson's book indicates. It was Chappell, John Henry (1933), who turned up a number of informants who insisted that the historic John Henry was white.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:11 PM

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Luke
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 05:11 PM

Not sure if it's of interest but I perform in a play about John Henry in which we perform the JH song at the very end of the play. Upon doing research and reading the books above mentioned, we figured theres alot more to know than anyone can figure. Not only did he really live, but did he really die in the contest. Since we could not find any recored of his death we decided to let him live in the end. there were no death certificates or headstones anywhere to prove otherwise.

Luke

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Sep 01 - 07:41 PM

Luke, what are your authorities that he really did live?

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:35 AM

...on a lighter note, somewhere I have a "Little Golden Record" with "Casey Jones" on one side and "John Henry" on the flip side. The illustration on the paper jacket depicts a fanciful image of Casey Jones waving out the window of his engine with John Henry standing by the track waving back. "Little Golden Records" were childrens' 78 RPMs prevalent in the 1950s. How's that for mixing your mythic archetypes?

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 Sep 01 - 01:29 PM

Please correct me if I'm wrong but John Henry wan't a spike driver, he was a steel (or drill) driver. The long steel star dril was held horizontally by another man, called the shaker, who held the drill point against the rock face and gave it a little twist with each blow so the drill would't bind in the hole.

John Henry said to his shaker,
He said shaker you'd better pray,
Cause if I miss the drill with this nine pound hammer,
Tomorrow'll be your buryin' day, Lord, Lord,
Tomorrow'll be your buryin' day.

The shaker, using both hands, held the drill over one shoulder so that if the driver (John Henry) missed the drill, the hammer would likely strike the back of the shaker's head. When enough holes had been drilled, they were packed with explosive charges and the rock was blasted away. When the rubble was cleared, the drill team would begin drilling new holes deeper into the developing tunnel.

If John Henry's drill is still there stuck in the rock, it would have to be hanging horizontally out of a hole at the end of an unfinished tunnel about fifteen feet deep.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: IanC
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 05:26 AM

Mark

I think you'll find, if you read the sources, that the Shaker often held the steel between his thighs.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 10:57 AM

Well that would make sense. I doubt they wanted all the blasting holes to be five feet off the ground. At any rate, if the tunnel was ever finished, John Henry's drill can't still be stuck in the last hole he made.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Sep 01 - 02:01 PM

From the description, the drill could be only an exhibit.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:14 PM

To those who continue to search for "The Real John Henry" I think I know more about him than what is now published or suspected.

I live in a wood frame farm house (in Virginia) that I think that he built. This was long after his famous race with the steam drill. Though many parts of the puzzle that was his life, remain unknown, what I do know is a glorious extention of the origional folklore. It reflects the true strength of this man and his race. Not only should he be celebrated for his victory in that tunnel the day he beat the steam drill, but his victory over the tyranny to which he was origionally subjected.

Please contact me by email if any of you want to know more about this truly great black man. By the way, he was knowned to be very "light-skinned" this may have lead to the questions about his race by "witnesses" of the origional events.

wlb

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,TalcottMan
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 02:46 AM

Howdy, I was born and raised in Talcott, West Virginia. One mile from the big bend tunnels. My mothers people were there for generations. They all worked on the railroad.(Along with most men of the area). My grandfateher and uncles helped build Big Ben Tunnel and their father worked on Great Bend Tunnel(Later named that, it was the original big ben tunnel). Unlike some things I have read, Talcott was not a violent area at all. The crew often boxed and played baseball after working. And yes, John Henry was a real man. He didn't play the banjo, and he didn't sing baritone. He was a mute. No one knew his name, so he was called 'John Henry'. He was a large man and a strong worker. There were also two other black men on the crew. All three were worked to death building the tunnel. From what I was told, they were not treated in a very humane manner.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 18 Sep 01 - 11:26 AM

The myth goes on.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 20 Sep 01 - 05:45 PM

Mark Clark wrote:

"... At any rate, if the tunnel was ever finished, John Henry's drill can't still be stuck in the last hole he made."

(1) Sure it could, if the hole being drilled was for a contest held outside the construction area, which is where the drill was in 1930 (and may still be).

(2) Others have spoken of the horizontal angle at which the drill was held. My information is that it was held that way *sometimes*. Holes were drilled at all angles, from straight down to straight up and points in between. The early steam drills could only drill straight down. A contest between one of these and a hand driller would likely have involved straight down holes. The drill sticking in the rock outside the east portal of Oak Mountain Tunnel, Shelby County, AL, is in such a hole.

Subject: John Henry
From: GUEST,Crystal
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 09:59 PM

When was john Henry Born? When Did he die? Where did he live? Do you know?

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,CRYSTAL
Date: 28 Sep 01 - 10:09 PM

Where did he live? when did he die? when was he born?

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: Andrew S
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 03:07 AM

If you listen to the lyrics of John Hurt's "Spike Driver's moan"

"This is the hammer that kill John Henry, Lord it won't kill me"

You realize that Hurt knew that this "hero" died working for "the man" and John Hurt didn't want the same kind of fate.

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From:
Date: 29 Sep 01 - 05:17 PM

"Crystal" asked some questions. I can now give some ***speculative*** (but not totally unsupported) answers.

"When was john Henry Born?"

ca 1860

"When Did he die?"

September 20, 1887

"Where did he live?"

Crystal Springs, Mississippi

"Do you know?"

Now, what kind of question is that?!

Subject: RE: The origins of john Henry
From: GUEST,John Garst
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:47 PM

I suspect that:

John Henry, b 1847-63, was a slave owned by Thomas Dabney at Burleigh Plantation, Dry Grove, MS. Thomas' nephew, Frederick Yeamans Dabney, b 1834-35, studied engineering at Rensallear and went into the railroad construction business before the Civil War. At the end of the war, he left the Confederate Army as a Captain, settled in Crystal Springs, MS (12 mi sse of Dry Grove), where he was universally called "Captain Dabney," and resumed his railroad construction business. John Henry took the name of his owner's family, Dabney, and joined Captain Dabney's crew as a laborer. At some point he learned steel driving.

In early 1887 (or possibly late 1886), John Henry joined Captain Dabney in the construction of the Columbus and Western RR, from Goodwater, AL, to Birmingham. It was tunneled through Oak and Coosa Mountains, just south of Leeds, AL. Captain Dabney was Chief Engineer for the C & W. John Henry worked on the construction of the tunnels as a steel driver.

In mid-1887 the Coosa Tunnel ran into problems. They hit a peculiar hard granite layer that was very difficult to drill. On this account, the opening of the C & W would be delayed for months.

Captain Dabney considered the use of a steam drill. An agent from New York came down to pitch his machine. When Captain Dabney said that he had a man who could beat the steam drill, the agent offered a one-sided bet. He was very confident that this could not be, and he was also anxious to demonstrate his machine and make a sale. He offered to give Captain Dabney the steam drill if Dabney's man could beat it.

Arrangements were made over the course of a few weeks. On Tuesday, September 20, 1887, a hot muggy day with threatening rain, the contestants met outside the east portal of Oak Mountain Tunnel for their all-day match. At the end of the day, John Henry collapsed in a dead faint. He was revived by water thrown on him, but he was blind and he thought he was dying. He called for his wife, who was summoned and came. "Have I beat that old steam drill?" he asked, as his wife cradled the dying man's head.

Indeed he had. He had made 27 1/2', the steam drill 21'. The agent lost his steam drill and Captain Dabney lost John Henry, his best steel driver ("Champion of the world," one contemporary said). The steam drill was put to work on Coosa Mountain Tunnel, but it was nonetheless delayed by 6 months. The line finally opened on July 1, 1888.

John Henry's wife, who had cooked for some of the men in the railroad camp, stayed with some of the crew in that capacity when they went to West Virginia to work on the Elkhorn Tunnel, which was also completed in 1888.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: BanjoRay
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 05:26 PM

That's a lot of material for a suspicion, Guest John. That looks like the result of a lot of research - do you have or will you produce a paper that contains all your sources, facts, deductions etc so the world can make it's mind up about who John Henry was and where the various tunnels in various states fit in. I, for one, would really like to know - being a truth addict, as well as someone who loves the song.

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 05:37 PM

I was asked if a publication were planned.

I think that Tributaries: Journal of the Alabama Folklife Association, will probably publish an article, "Chasing John Henry in Alabama and Mississippi," in the spring of 2002. The primary facts are:

(1) In about 1927 C. C. Spencer sent Guy Johnson a very detailed story about John Henry.

(2) I have confirmed a number of details of Spencer's story.

(3) Spencer's story is also supported by other informants, not only the two others who wrote Johnson, but also a long and strong local tradition in the vicinity of Leeds, AL. Citizens there can take you to the spot where "John Henry fell dead."

(4) The scenario I gave in my post is Spencer's story, corrected and augmented by a few facts and considerable speculation.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 23 Dec 01 - 05:59 AM

I must agree with BanjoRay (28 Nov. 01) as to the necessity of information sources, facts, deductions and etc. so the world can make it's mind up about who John Henry was and where the various tunnels in various states fit in, because I am somewhat of a truth addict myself.

In fact I live in Leeds, AL and have recently read in "only" the area Leeds News that a local movie mogul named Jerry Voyles plans to make a movie/docudrama about the life and times of John Henry based on the research of Dr. John Garst that "John Henry was a real man, and not a fable that worked and died on the Oak Mountain Tunnel in the Dunnavant area of Leeds" where he battled the steam driver. I thought than a docudrama was based on some degree of fact?

So far based on the limited information (which is normal) reported in the Leeds News, I noted nothing more than hearsay, speculation, supposition and conjecture woven together with convoluted logic as to the relationship between Leeds, AL and the legend of John Henry. Recently these gentlemen (Garst and Voyles) stated to the Leeds city council that their proposed movie would "help put Leeds on the map".

I would hope that before some definitive movie was made as an issue of fact that some form of academic proof would be offered as evidence of the supposed conclusions with an opportunity of academic and/or legal rebuttal. Otherwise this supposed factorial movie/docudrama appears to be nothing more than an attempt to promote a tourist attraction….$$$$. After all there are other areas in the country, for whatever reasons, that have claimed a John Henry connection first.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Dec 01 - 01:43 PM

Guest djc, every time I see the word "docudrama," I run the other way. Most are speculation and nonsense, dressed up to appeal to the lowest common denominator in the public. Garst has endulged in much speculation in this thread, but has failed to put forth evidence to support his theories.
"Informants" were mentioned in his last post. A parallel situation is outlined in "Folk Songs of the South" by J. H. Cox, 1925, a respected folklorist of his day. The governor of West Virginia from 1893-1897, in a letter, said John Hardy was a "steel-driver and was famous in the beginning of the C & O Railroad. It was about 1872 that he was in this section." The letter goes on to describe his prowess. A Mr. Walker reported a "current belief" about John Hardy, working for a railroad contractor named Langhorn, working on the Big Bend Tunnel. The contractor on the other side of the tunnel had a steam drill. A wager was made that Hardy could drill a hole in less time than the steam drill. Hardy won but died. Some of the ballads, however, go on to describe a John Hardy who later became a gambler and murdered a man.
Cox wrote a thesis (Harvard Univ.) and an article with material "showing" that John Hardy was the steel driving man of the ballads. I haven't seen the thesis, but the material in the book on folk songs contains only information from "informants." This is another good story but several scholars have thrown cold water on it, as well.
To quote one of the best advertisements on TV recently, "Where's the beef?" I prefer the John Hardy tale, and could make a "docudrama" out of it as well.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 02:06 PM

The early confusion of John Hardy with John Henry was recently brought up here again. There are many reasons to believe that they were different people, one of which is that the "John Henry" song appears to have been extant before John Hardy's crime was committed.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 02:57 PM

"appears to have been extant before" ?

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 03:21 PM

"appears to have been extant before"

Yes. Persistent and consistent testimony places "John Henry" around 1888, although a few informants claim it is older. I'm not at my office now, where I could check the date of John Hardy's hanging, but, as I recall, it was in the 1890s.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 04:21 PM

John Hardy was hanged in 1894, long after his steel-driving days in the 1870s. Not pertinent to the story.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 01 - 10:38 PM

"John Hardy was hanged in 1894, long after his steel-driving days in the 1870s. Not pertinent to the story."

Then he didn't die after beating a steam drill before 1894, did he?

There have always been a few informants who claimed that he beat a steam drill but did not then die. Such opinions, however, belong to a small minority. That doesn't make them wrong, but if JH didn't die from his effort in beating the steam drill, then what is the point of the legend?

C. C. Spencer claims to have seen him die. Another "Alabama" informant claims that her uncle was by his side when he died.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Dec 01 - 01:18 AM

All of this depends on which informants and what locale. The fact remains that there is no solid evidence to support either story.
John Hardy and "John Henry" may be two different people. (Some think there may be two John Hardys!)
More and more, I incline to the idea that the songs in all of their variants are composite, glorifying all of the the old steel drivers. I prefer the West Virginia origin, but that is only a personal inclination.
See post by Norm Cohen, author of "Long Steel Rail." Also posts by Barry Finn and Bruce O.
A folk song is generally legend, but based on some event or group of events, with a hero or heros increased to mythic proportions.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 25 Dec 01 - 09:03 PM

My belief that Dunnavant, AL, has a better claim on the historic John Henry than any other location is based on documented facts that agree with the story C. C. Spencer told Guy Johnson in the late 1920s. Here are some of Spencer's claims.

(1) He was a teenager working in Alabama on the construction of the Alabama Great Southern line in 1880-82. He carried water and tools for the laborers.

(2) He knew John Henry personally.

(3) He was an eye-witness to John Henry's contest with a steam drill, which occurred on September 20, 1882.

(4) John Henry drove steel at Cruzee Mountain.

(5) John Henry's last name was Dabner.

(6) He was born a slave on a Dabner plantation in Mississippi. He took the Dabner name from his slavery-time owners.

(7) He was from Holly Springs, MS.

(8) One of the contractors for whom he worked was named Dabner.

Two other "Alabama" informants placed John Henry at Cursey Mountain and Oak Mountain. One of these said that John Herny worked for a contractor named Dabney and a "Jamaica" informant said that he worked for a man named Dabner.

Here are some of the documented facts. As the man said, draw your own conclusions.

Oak and Coosa Mountains are about 16 miles east of Birmingham. They are parallel soutwest-to-northeast ridges, with Oak being north of Coosa by 2-3 miles. In 1887-88 the Columbus and Western (C & W) RR line was put through from Goodwater, AL, to Birmingham. Tunnels were put through Oak and Coosa mountains. Portal-to-portal the distance between Oak and Coosa Tunnels is almost exactly two miles.

The Chief Engineer, and the man in charge of construction, for the C & W was Captain (Civil War rank) Frederick Yeamans Dabney, born in VA but raised in Raymond, MS. Frederick's uncle Thomas Smith Gregory Dabney had owned a plantation, Burleigh, between Crystal Springs and Raymond, MS, with 154 slaves in 1860, several of whom are candidates to have been John Henry (right sex and approximate age, names not known). Captain Dabney maintained his family and official residence in Crystal Springs, MS, while he took temporary accomodations wherever his work in RR construction led him. In 1887-88 he stayed at the Florence Hotel in Birmingham.

Coosa Tunnel was a problem. In mid-1887 the tunnelers encountered a layer of rock that was very hard to drill and blast. The completion of the line was delayed by this difficulty by about 6 months (to July 1, 1888, instead of some time in late 1887).

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Luke
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 08:46 AM

I wonder if he just had a broken heart. He saw his world changing and knew it was gonna be time to find some other means of employment. I think it's interesting that some of the greatest prime figures in mythology somehow die of a broken heart. What could be more tragic and romantic. Also it's a death that cannot be treated by medicine but only cured by one's own soul. This allows that it was a very personl matter going beyond the realm of mortal fixing. I believe that if he lived and died and did so in the course of events as told in the tale here. he has done so because of the repeated telling and building of the lore needed to inrich the listeners. That is good enough for a romantic non-scholar such as myself. I am thankful for either his life or non-so.

Luke

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 26 Dec 01 - 05:36 PM

FWIW:

From Chappell, John Henry, p 25.

Lee Holley, Tazewell, VA, reported in 1925:

"I've lived 'round here all my life. I've been acquainted with the camps in this section for forty or fifty years. I remember seeing John Hardy pretty often, and know all about him.

"He was ... 27 or 8 when he was hung at Welch over in McDowell County. He was with a gang of gamblers 'round the camps ... loafers and gamblers, [who] robbed the camps at night often after pay-day ... most of the gang got killed sooner or later.

"... I know John Hardy didn't drive steel in Big Bend Tunnel; he couldn't have because he wasn't old enough when it was built, and he didn't work anyway. He got his living gambling and robbing 'round the camps."

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 01:53 PM

The "two John Henrys" theory, which I believe is highly likely to be correct:

John Henry Martin was a highly reputed steel driver at Big Bend Tunnel, C & O RR, between Talcott and Hinton, WV, during its construction in 1870-72. He did not race a steam drill and his death was from "natural causes" many years later.

John Henry Dabney was a steel driver working on Coosa and Oak Tunnels, C & W RR, Dunnavant, AL in 1887. Steel-driving contests were popular recreational and betting events, and John Henry won all of those he entered. He raced a steam drill at Oak Tunnel, and won, but collapsed thereafter and died.

A ballad about JHD, which did not give his last name, was being sung in Georgia by 1888 and it was soon known in the Big Bend area. When it arrived there, people still remembered John Henry Martin and they began to associate him with the John Henry of the song, assigning to JH Martin the deeds of JH Dabney and localizing the ballad to "Big Bend Tunnel on the C & O Road."

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: NicoleC
Date: 08 Jan 02 - 04:12 PM

What a fascinating discussion. Just to throw in something purely speculative:

The countryside surrounding Birmingham, AL was not very impressive to me when I was there just recently -- mostly rolling hills. The mountains of WV make a very impressive locale for stories about backbreaking work, all steep slopes and small valleys. A couple of different versions I've heard call him an "East Virginian man" (Eastern West Virginia?) It seems possible to me that the WV locale would be more popular or more believable from a legendary point of view, and therefore better fodder for storytelling, regardless of his true origin.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 09 Jan 02 - 10:40 AM

"It seems possible to me that the WV locale would be more popular or more believable from a legendary point of view, and therefore better fodder for storytelling, regardless of his true origin." - Nicole Castle

I agree, and further Big Bend is a much longer, and much more famous, tunnel than Oak or Coosa.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 11:24 AM

"A couple of different versions I've heard call him an 'East Virginian man' (Eastern West Virginia?)" - NicoleCastle

No. East Virginia is what we now call Virginia. Before the Civil War Virginia included what we now call West Virginia, but there was tension between the western mountain region and the eastern lowlanders. The latter made laws to suit their own interests and not those of the mountaineers. This came to a head during the Civil War, when many mountaineers were opposed to secession. West Virginia was formed, as a state, during the Civil War. For some time thereafter, the residue, which we now call Virginia, was spoken of as East Virginia, to distinguish it from West Virginia.

John Henry Dabney was a Mississippi man. John Henry Martin is said, by a man who claimed to have been his grandnephew, to have been from (East) Virginia.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: NicoleC
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 01:58 PM

Guest,

I'm a Virginian, with lots of family WV, so I'm well aware of the history of the states :) Although I do meet a lot of folks with some very strange ideas about it!

I have seen pre-C.W. diaries and such that refer to people from the eastern mountains as being from "eastern Virginia." I can only guess at the reasons for such a distinction, but the concept of being from eastern VA definately predates the secession of WV, doesn't necessarily mean that portion of the country we now call Virginia, and is probably a very subjective distinction.

In the aftermath of the Civil War, a lot of people -- especially rural mountain people along the border -- didn't know which state they were in according to a legal map. The 1870 census very markedly shows this confusion.

Of course, none of this really pinpoints where JH was born or even where the event took place. I think the MS/AL arguments are pretty good. But I also think it's a mistake to assume that people were as aware of arbitrary political boundaries then as we are now in an era of free maps and "Welcome to West Virginia" signs. This is not to presume a lack of interest or intelligence, but a reflection of a time when "where" was defined by your neighbors, your church, this or that side of the mountain, and the most convenient county courthouse.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 10 Jan 02 - 03:21 PM

"East Virginia" and "eastern Virginia" are a little bit different. For the post-Civil-War period, I'd bet on "East Virginia" as the designation of a state and "eastern Virginia" as pointing to a region within a state.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 05:14 PM

I've recently learned of a Leeds, AL, family that preserves stories of steel-driving contests at the time of the construction of the C&W there, 1887-88. Their ancestor, the original source of the stories, worked on the C&W construction as a mucker, whose job it is to haul off the rock debris after blasting. Steel-driving contests were recreational and, I would guess, betting events, similar to the contests of lumberjacks, log rolling, sawing, chopping, etc.

The family stories are not about "John Henry," and the members of the family have never connected the hero of their stories with John Henry, nor do they preserve any lore about a contest with a steam drill or the steel drivers' death.

They tell about "John." John was such a good steel driver that he won every contest he entered.

I think that this is valuable information because it shows no signs of being tainted by John Henry legends external to the family's experience.

I identify their "John" with John Henry Dabney, the legendary John Henry, and I regard their family lore as support for this identification.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: NicoleC
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 06:38 PM

Just playing devil's advocate --

Question: Would a man who wins all the local steel driving contests work as a mucker? Isn't the mucker a less-skilled, lower paying position? (Honestly, I don't know, and couldn't find the answer, but it makes some sense.)

Is there any genealogical proof that their John is John Henry Dabney? John is a very common name, but the late-1800's are pretty easy to document.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 02:27 PM

I'm sure you're correct about muckers' and drivers' relative pay scales. "John" didn't work as a mucker, he was a steel driver. The ancestor of the family recalling "John" worked as a mucker.

There is no other evidence that their "John" is John Henry, but how many different men can win all of the steel-driving contests in a particular locale? F. P. Barker, of Birmingham, AL, writing in in the late '20s, place John Henry at Coosa Mountain, AL, in the 1880s and said that John Henry was the "champion of the world with a hammer." This fits with the story about "John."

"...the late-1800's are pretty easy to document." Wow! Have you tried finding documentation of particular ex-slaves in Alabama or Mississippi at that time? If you know how, please give me some tips.

The closest I've gotten is to find a Henry Dabney in Copiah County, MS, in the 1870 U.S. census. That's the right county, where Crystal Springs is. He was born in 1850, making him 37 years old in 1887. I think it possible that he could have been John Henry, but that's as far as I've gotten. I've also found from the 1860 U.S. census slave schedules that there were a number of John-Henry candidates (right sex, age) at Burleigh plantation, owned by Captain Frederick Dabney's uncle Thomas, and two more at Raymond, owned by Captain Dabney's father Augustine, but these records don't give names. I need to find the records of Burleigh Plantation itself and the papers of Thomas, Augustine, and Frederick Dabney, but I suspect that these no longer exist.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: NicoleC
Date: 21 Jan 02 - 04:42 PM

""...the late-1800's are pretty easy to document." Wow! Have you tried finding documentation of particular ex-slaves in Alabama or Mississippi at that time? If you know how, please give me some tips. "

To document the lineage of a particular family to that time period would be fairly easy, however to document a particular person out of the blue would be MUCH harder. In this case, documenting the genealogy of this family might point to clues as to their John's identity. I think it unlikely that their John is THE John Henry -- family tales are rarely accurate, but it's a lead and it might offer some light on the subject. Maybe it's not really their ancestor, but someone who lived nearby and later got claimed or confused to be their ancestor.

I'd be very careful to go backwards from the existing family to look for clues. The census' from 1880 onward are MUCH more useful, and it will help develop a pattern of the neighboring familes and who might be allied to whom. The 1880 census was pretty thorough, and didn't miss as many people as some of the earlier ones did. However, I think your best bet in researching a former-slave population is to dig into church records, which are more likely to be carefully kept and recorded than the official ones. Providing, of course, that their church kept records; not all of them had reliable access to a literate person to keep those records.

I haven't done any research in Alabama, but I have done a lot of research in rural farming communities, and they present a unique set of challenges, mostly because of the lack of reliable official records. I understand Alabama is particularly poor in this department. You really have to understand the whole local history and the ways families intermingled to nail down some of the harder subjects, simply researching one family doesn't seem to work.

I'd be happy to spare the other Catters the boredom of a genealogy research how-to discussion :) I may not know Alabama, but I do know a lot of places to look for info. Feel free to email me with specific research questions, and I will see what I can dig up as possible sources for you. Eventually, you may need to refer the question to a professional genealogist who specializes in the area and in African-American ancestry, but you should cover as many bases as you can before going that route, and keep it well documented so that nothing gets repeated. It's a tough field, but not impossible.

-Nicole [e-mail] (Take the "NOSPAM." out, of course.)

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 22 Jan 02 - 04:41 PM

For the record, the Leeds family does not claim to be descended from "John." They are descended from "John"'s mucker co-worker.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 05:54 AM

Here's a new thread adding fuel to the theories about John Henry

John Henry's Origin Solved?

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 05:27 PM

What caused the death of John Henry?

Here are some possible clues.

************** C. C. Spencer, who claimed to have been an eyewitness, said that JH collapsed at the end of the day (it was an all-day event) and was revived by throwing water on him, at which point he said, "Send for my wife. I am blind and dying." At least one collected version of "John Henry" (from Burl McPeak, Fords Branch, KY, obtained by Chappell) speaks of "the place where John Henry went blind."

Leon R. Harris' version (Johnson, 90-95) says

Sun shined hot an' burnin,' Wer'n't no breeze at-tall, Sweat ran down like watah down a hill, That day John Henry let his hammah fall.

and

John Henry, O, John Henry! Blood am runnin' red! Fall right down with his hammah to th' ground, Says, "I've beat him to th' bottom but I'm dead."

Onah L. Spencer's version (Johnson, 95-99) says

He broke a rib in his lef' han' side, And his intrels fell on the groun'.

J. D. Williams' version (Johnson, 103-105) says

He stretched out on the ground And said to his friends around, "And I was the best, but I am going home to rest, That steam hammer is done broke me down."

Several versions have John Henry saying, before he died, "I've got a mighty roaring in my head." Or something similar.

Many versions have JH saying, "Give me a cool drink of water 'fo I die."

W. A. Bates (Johnson, 118-119):

Till that hot summer day he died

Thomas Watkins (Johnson, 121-122):

W'en de sun commence to shine and de steam fall down

Jesse Sparks (Chappell, 111):

The rock it was so tall and John Henry so small He fell from his hammer and he died.

Sam Jones (Chappell, 112-113): "I'm going to my shanty number nine to take a lie down, Please take good care of my wife and child, Brother Bill, I did beat the steam drill down."

J. P. Jumper (Chappell, 113):

"I feel a pain in my heart, Before this steel drill shall beat me down, I'll hammer my poor self to death."

Sallie Flannery (Chappell, 113):

"I can feel my muscles giving way."

W. S. Barnett (Chappell, 114):

He drove so hard that he broke his heart, He laid down his hammer and he died.

Lubie Freeman (Chappell, 126):

But when the poor boy laid down and died

A few versions have JH being killed by his partner. One story says his captain killed him after they got back to Mississippi. ***************

I found a physician, Dr. Harris, who was willing to look over these items and comment. His finding: Most likely ventricular rupture - as the Barnett version says, "he broke his heart."

This came as a surprise to me. I had assumed that heat stroke was most likely. Dr. Harris thinks that ventricular rupture fits better, although it could have been the rupture of some other "great vessel." Ventricular rupture can follow a heart attack. As far as I can tell, it usually occurs in older people, and I think that John Henry was probably under 40, but perhaps the hard life of a black southern laborer and his likely grease-laden diet could have predisposed him. Further, many versions of the ballad tell how "Polly Ann drove steel like a man" while John Henry was sick. I'd always taken that to be a commentary on Polly Ann, or on John Henry's preferences in women, but now I wonder if the more significant aspect might be that John Henry had been sick. Perhaps he had had an earlier heart attack, from which he recovered, but with some dead tissue and a weakened heart. Then, perhaps days or a few weeks later, his great effort doomed him.

According to Dr. Harris, blindness could be a consequence of low blood pressure. A ventricular rupture could have put John Henry into "instant hypovolemic shock." Lying down could have partially restored his blood pressure, enough for him to speak. Dr. Harris thinks that John Henry bled out.

Barnett's version, quoted above, says John Henry "broke his heart." Jumper's version says he felt a pain in his heart - perhaps this was an earlier heart attack. Flannery's "I can feel my muscles giving way" describes weakness that could result. A perceived roaring sound is another symptom of low blood pressure.

Dr. Harris does not think that the story that "his intrels fell on the groun'" is realistic.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 05:54 PM

Still piling speculation on speculation.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 06:12 PM

*From: Dicho *Date: 11-Apr-02 - 05:54 PM

*Still piling speculation on speculation.

Informed speculation, though.

When you get the real answers, let us know.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 07:21 PM

You, too.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 07:52 PM

This really points out how John Henry and others like him might have benefitted from a diet low in cholesterol, and a regular exercise regimen that included both high and low impact aerobic exercising. No doubt swinging his hammer gave JH enormous upper-body strength and high lung capacity, but had he taken advantage of the dietary information readily at hand from the many asian railworkers who no doubt worked in close proximity to him and adopted a diet high in vegetables, protein, and long-chain sugars, his longevity could have extended his life well into his fifties or sixties. Then we might be singing

"Ah cain't give the grandkids no piggyback ride
'Cause dat hammer put arthritis in my back Lawd, Lawd
Dat hammer done put an achin' in my back"

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Apr 02 - 11:49 PM

When John H. was around they didn't have cholesterol, but if they'd had it, they would've fried it.

Art

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:57 AM

Art...LOL!