Origins: John Henry

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 23 Apr 02 - 01:53 PM

The question arises, "What is speculation?" Is it anything that isn't documented? What type of documentation is necessary?

Suppose a witness says "xyz." Suppose that "yz" is independently documented. Is "x" then speculation?

I consider "x" in this case to be supported by evidence, albeit indirect.

This is the nature of the evidence that places John Henry in AL in 1887.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 24 Jun 02 - 11:27 AM

I think that my article,

"Chasing John Henry in Alabama and Mississippi"

has now appeared. It presents evidence and arguments supporting the hypothesis that John Henry raced a steam drill in Alabama, near Leeds, in 1887.

I haven't seen the journal itself, but I have received off-prints. It is in

Tributaries: Journal of the Alabama Folklife Association Issue No. 5 2002

The price printed on the back cover is $10, and the WWW site says there is a $2.50 postage and handling charge.

The Alabama Folklife Association 410 North Hull Street Montgomery, AL 36104 [phone] FAX [phone]

Ordering instructions are given at

http://www.alabamafolklife.org/AFApublication.htm

and there appears to be an on-line, credit-card option. However, Issue No. 5 of Tributaries is not yet listed on this web page.

This issue also contains

The Life and Death of Pioneer Bluesman Butler "String Beans" May (Doug Seroff and Lynn Abbott)

Butler County Blues (Kevin Nutt)

Tracking Down a Legend: The "Jaybird" Coleman Story (James Patrick Cather)

A Life of the Blues (Willie Earl King, with photo essay by Axel Kustner)

Livingston, Alabama, Blues: The Significance of Vera Ward Hall (Jerrilyn McGregory)

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 04:30 PM

I've just learned that Tributaries, Vol V, containing my article, "Chasing John Henry," is not yet out. It is expected to be shipped from Canada to the Alabama Folklife Association on July 17, 2002. Assuming that this takes no more than a week, it should be available by the end of July.

Art Rosembaum pointed out to me a song published by Dorothy Scarborough in "On the Trail of Negro Folk Songs" (Harvard, 1925), p 221.

John Henry's Dead

John Henry's dead, And de las' words he said, "Never let your honey Have her way."

'Way back, 'way back, 'Way back in Alabama, 'way back.

(The two other verses are not about John Henry.)

This verse is often found as "Georgia Buck" (The Georgia buck is dead, And the last words he said....) Even so, the association here of John Henry with Alabama could be significant.

The version of "John Henry" published by Zora Neale Hurston in Mules and Men contains a reference to "Georgy skin." This points to the deep south (not West Virginia).

Individually, these are very weak points. Even so, they add to the dozen or so other features of various versions of "John Henry" that support Alabama over West Virginia as the scene of John Henry's race with a steam drill.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Art Thieme
Date: 16 Jul 02 - 12:51 AM

Mr. Garst,

This is fascinating.

Art

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 11 Aug 02 - 01:57 PM

I have just read in Letitia Dabney Miller's memoirs (found in several libraries, but I consulted them at the McCain Library at the University of Southern Mississippi, Hattiesburg) that a slave named Henry was a boy in their family during the Civil War. Letitia was Captain Frederick Yeamans Dabney's youngest sibling. Thus, Henry belonged to Philip Augustine Lee Dabney, their father. This Henry could be the John Henry of legend. If so, Captain Dabney would have known him when he was a child. Captain Dabney would have been about 15 years older.

John Garst

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: Blues=Life
Date: 12 Aug 02 - 08:14 AM

Fascinating thread. Totally useless, but fascinating. You can "ivory tower" a song to death, you know. Did John Henry really exist? WHO CARES? It will not change the power of the song one iota. This song has lasted for years because it touches the listeners with true power, on a primal level. NOT because JH was a myth or a real person. Because we can identify with the good fight, and the underdog, and the victory, and the cost. Now I remember why I left academe:

"A man ain't nothing but a man." (I wish I had written that.)

"I am trying to find a fundamental difference between my speculation and other, more legitimate kinds of interpretation. The only distinction I can come up with is that the units/objects of analysis are, in my case, more abstract than in other cases." (Thank God, I didn't write this.)

Just sing the damn song.

Peace,

Blues

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 03:56 PM

I agree with "Blues=Life" that knowledge of the historical John Henry "will not change the power of the song one iota" and I appreciate the sentiment, "Just sing the damn song." I can't tell how many times I've seen some long-winded person get up to lead at a Sacred Harp singing and have their remarks terminated by a polite version of "Shut up and sing!"

John Henry is a powerful legend that stands on its on and will keep going no matter what. I've done quite a bit of wondering what the impact of firmly documenting John Henry in Alabama would be on the West Virginia people. In a way, it would rain on their parade, sort of. But if we recall that their investment is in the *legend,* not the facts, then finding John Henry in Alabama would be irrelevant to their celebrations. If that day comes, I surely hope they will see it that way. Also, as I've noted earlier, I suspect that they really did have their own John Henry, John Henry Martin, a noted steel driver at Big Bend. I don't think that he raced a steam drill, however.

None of these considerations deter me from pursuing the historical John Henry. It is a real challenge, and an interesting one, just the kind of thing you might design for a retired chemist to do.

Are you ready for some wholesale speculation?

Here're some facts.

I've known of Neal Pattman since about 1970, when he worked as a one-armed janitor at the Georgia Center for Continuing Education here on the campus of the University of Georgia, Athens. I didn't know then that he was a bluesman. When Art Rosenbaum joined our faculty in 1976 or '77, he started immediately digging up local traditional musicians, and he found Neal, blowing his harmonica and singing. Since then Neal has become pretty well known on the international blues scene.

I attended a Neal Pattman concert last night. As he said, he usually includes "John Henry" because it was the first song he ever learned from his father. As usual, his version is flexible. The weight of John Henry's hammer can vary from singing to singing as can the selection of verses. Neal always sings about driving "them steels" and not letting "another man beat my time" (rather than the "steam drill"). Anyhow, last night he included the verse about John Henry's woman/wife who "drove steel like a man" when John Henry was sick.

In most versions you hear nowadays, John Henry's woman/wife is "Polly Ann." In about 1927, however, Leon Harris, a collector of John Henryana from Moline, Illinois, stated that "Lucy" was the only name for John Henry's woman/wife that he had never heard in a "John Henry" song.

Both "Polly Ann" and "Lucy" strike me as likely commonplace replacements for an earlier, perhaps less "romantic" or singable name.

In addition to these, one finds among the 59 versions of the "John Henry" ballad collected and published by Guy Johnson and Louis Chappell the following names: Julie Ann, Mary Magdalene, Mary Ann, Ida Red, Sary Ann, Martha Ann. Last night Neal Pattman sang something like "Maggadee," maybe "Maggie D," perhaps? I'll try to find out from him what he thinks he sings.

Anyhow, if it's not "Maggie D" its something much like it.

Henry Dabney, black, b 1850 in Mississippi, married Margaret Foston on November 4, 1869, in Copiah County, Mississippi.

Speculation: "Maggie" was Margaret's nickname. To distinguish her from other "Maggies," she was called "Maggie D."

"Maggie D" appeared in the earliest versions of the "John Henry" ballad. Neal Pattman preserves it. Oral tradition led to changes like the following.

Maggie D -> Magdalene -> Mary Magdalene -> Mary Ann -> Polly Ann -> Julie Ann, Sary Ann, Martha Ann

"Ida Red" is likely a transfer from the song/fiddle tune of that name.

This adds a little bit to the plausibility that Henry Dabney was the historic John Henry.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: NicoleC
Date: 14 Aug 02 - 05:21 PM

On the name issue, common nicknames in the last century for Margaret include: Maggie, Marg, Margie, Peggy, Daisy, Meg, Midge, Peg, Peggy, Rita, Margery, Marge, Margie

"Magdalene" is another form of Margaret, and shares many of the same nicknames.

"Polly" was a common nickname for Mary

Someone named Mary Margaret or Mary Magdalene (both VERY common names for girls from about 1700 to 1950) could be referred to by most of those names listed above. Nor was it uncommon for record keepers to refer to the same person by different nicknames names on different documents. (And different spellings are ubiquitous.)

All of those names are so common, as is John, that it's hard to use them as evidence, though.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 15 Aug 02 - 03:31 PM

"All of those names are so common, as is John, that it's hard to use them as evidence, though." - Nicole

Yeah, it isn't, of itself, very strong evidence.

However, "Maggie D," if that what Neal sings, has special meaning, given that "Margaret Dabney" is the wife of record of Henry Dabney of Copiah County, MS.

Also, "Mary Magdalene" and "Maggie D" occur very rarely in the "John Henry" tradition. You might think that this would argue against "Margaret" as the original name. However, the oral ballad tradition is, I believe, follow a law much like Gresham's, "bad money drives out good." The "'Gresham's' ballad law" would be something like "bad facts drive out good," meaning that incorrect facts tend to replace correct ones. Part of what happens is that facts from lots of cases, which are woven into good lines, spread themselves out over all of the ballads.

Anyhow, the implication is that rare occurrences may be more likely to be correct than common ones, once a ballad has been transmitted through oral tradition for a while.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 18 Aug 02 - 11:31 PM

I am really not interested in analyzing the man, the song, etc. to death. I am, however, interested in knowing whether or not the story is true (if that can be known), and only because of certain information that I recently found in doing my family genealogy.

I came to this site in search of information on John Henry and what I have found is of interest. However, I hope that after I have been dead for a hundred years, people that are not even of my acquaintence don't decide to move me to Alabama (with all due respect to Alabama).

For the record, noting the above discussion re: "Eastern" Virginia, although the area where the C&O tunnel is located (Summers County) is in West Virginia, it is an area which was almost entirely allied with "Eastern" Virginia and the Confederacy. The original proposal for the State of WV did not include several border counties, including Monroe, Greenbrier and Pocahontas. Summers County was not created until 1780, out of parts of Monroe, Greenbrier, Fayette and Mercer Counties. I believe that where the tunnel lies was within Monroe Co. from the time of its formation in 1799 until Summers was formed in 1870. So the area in question was "Eastern" in its politics, plantation economy, customs and allegiance. It was different in that it was a "small" plantation style system and the slave-holders generally had fewer acres in production, fewer slaves and they often worked side by side. Apparently, after emancipation many ex-slaves stayed in the community. This may be because it had not been ravaged by war (although economically devastated), in the small plantation system there was often a personal relationship between the slaveholders and slaves that persisted after emancipation (I am aware of many instances of this in the area). My point is that after emmancipation there was not a general exodus of the black population as there was in certain parts of the South, rather, they stayed, lived and worked.

I have numerous family lines in Monroe County (including what is now Summers. My great, grandfather was from a Plantation, which spanned the Greenbrier 4 miles north of the tunnel opening at Pence Springs. My great-grandmother was from a Plantation in the Indian Creek Valley. The plantation house, a big "white house" was 7.5 miles from the tunnel opening but the lands once ran very close to the Greenbrier River and to the tunnel.

In a codicil to my great, great, great grandfather's will, dated November 22, 1854, he made the following bequest to one of his daughters: "Secondly I desire that JOHN HENRY my yellow boy go to ------- -------- my daughter in lieu of Charles who is now dead.

Given that this John Henry was a boy in 1854, putting him in the correct age range, and living about 7 miles from where the tunnel was to be built 16 years later, and that his name is "John Henry," (not Henry or John, or rumored to have been)I had expected that I would have found this information had been made available and its merits discussed.

I had also heard that John Henry was said to have been light skinned. Although it appears that he has been, it also appears he has been said to be dark, white, etc. I am not sure what anyones take of that issue is.

Pardon my not disclosing the family names and the name of the daughter to whom John Henry was bequeathed, but I would really initially like to give this information, copy of the Will, etc. only ot someone who is a serious researcher. In case there is someone appropriate who is interested I will be as helpful as possible.

I realize that this might not pan out (i.e., not "The" John Henry), but after reading all of the posts, I think it is more compelling than 99% of the information out there.

Oh, one last thing -- the "White House." I don't know if it was CALLED the "White House," but the plantation house was a big, white house. I also know that it was not unusual post-emancipation in Monroe County for free, ex-slaves to continue to have burial "rights" in the burial grounds of their former masters. Many old Monroe families, black and white, still reside in Monroe and many have the same surnames. It is a place changed little by time.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 10:38 AM

GUEST,RBH, [e-mail], writes:

******* In a codicil to my great, great, great grandfather's will, dated November 22, 1854, he made the following bequest to one of his daughters: "Secondly I desire that JOHN HENRY my yellow boy go to ------- -------- my daughter in lieu of Charles who is now dead."

Given that this John Henry was a boy in 1854, putting him in the correct age range, and living about 7 miles from where the tunnel was to be built 16 years later, and that his name is "John Henry," (not Henry or John, or rumored to have been) I had expected that I would have found this information had been made available and its merits discussed. *******

Information like this could be valuable, but until some further connection is made it is hard to know what to do with it. There is no shortage of men named "John Henry." As Uncle Beverly Standard put it to Guy Johnson (quoted from Johnson's book): "Which John Henry do you want to know about? I've known so many John Henrys."

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: RB Haynes
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 02:34 PM

*******Information like this could be valuable, but until some further connection is made it is hard to know what to do with it. There is no shortage of men named "John Henry." As Uncle Beverly Standard put it to Guy Johnson (quoted from Johnson's book): "Which John Henry do you want to know about? I've known so many John Henrys."*******

How much information is there about Afro-American men named John Henry of the correct age, living (and perhaps born) within "walking distance" of the C&0 tunnel project? What further connection needs to be "made" before something further is done with it?

Pardon me if I am wrong, but I don't think we are talking about "John Henrys" of Finnish extraction living in Nome, Alaska in 1923.

As a subset of all the John Henrys, I would think that a man of the right race, right age in the right place at the right time would be a very small subset, especially given that the population of the area was (at the time) and continues to be small.

The Will names other slaves who were likely family members. Again, many families of freed slaves remain in the area and may have knowledge through oral history, etc.

When I started family research in Monroe, I did not expect to find much, but again, so little has changed and so many peoples families have been there continuously since the 1700s, that I found an amazing amount of oral history, original documents, buildings, etc.

Again, any serious John Henry researchers out there?

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 03:21 PM

RB, John has been posting a considerable amount of research on this topic to this forum for over a year, and has published an article outlining his arguments in more detail. I'd consider his work "serious research," but you may want to review his published work before you make up your mind. (See above for details on how to get one.)

Personally, I'm rooting for WV :) But I really feel that the story of John Henry is probably fiction or mostly fiction, but a great song. Man/animal vs. machine was a common theme of the era, and it still resonates with us today.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: RB Haynes
Date: 19 Aug 02 - 03:58 PM

Nicole, I was just responding to what seemed an extraordinarily quick dismissal of this possibly relevant information, and was sensing (perhaps incorrectly) what seemed like an agenda overriding the natural scientific curiousity which I would have anticipated. In any case, I believe I have found professional interest elsewhere and will post again if anything comes of it.

Thanks for the feedback! RBH

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 20 Aug 02 - 02:05 PM

"As a subset of all the John Henrys, I would think that a man of the right race, right age in the right place at the right time would be a very small subset, especially given that the population of the area was (at the time) and continues to be small...

"Nicole, I was just responding to what seemed an extraordinarily quick dismissal of this possibly relevant information, and was sensing (perhaps incorrectly) what seemed like an agenda overriding the natural scientific curiousity which I would have anticipated. In any case, I believe I have found professional interest elsewhere and will post again if anything comes of it." - RB Haynes

I do not rely, for information on the frequency of the name, "John Henry," on the quotation that I gave earlier, from Uncle Beverly Standard. However, Uncle Beverly lived in the Big Bend Community and was speaking largely of "John Henry"'s "of the right race, right age in the right place at the right time."

As I see it, the chances are slim that the particular John Henry for which RB has information is the legendary John Henry. Even so, it remains possible, and every lead that is followed up to some conclusion is a significant contribution to knowledge of the subject, even when the result is negative.

RB should follow his lead, and I would be as pleased as anyone if it should prove out.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 03:08 PM

RB Haynes

RB,

If you have not already done so, I suggest that you contact Scott Nelson with your John Henry information. Scott is a history professor at the College of William and Mary. He has suggested that the "white house" of some versions of "John Henry" refers to a building at the Richmon Pen. He maintains a special interest in John Henry at Big Bend and continues to work on this subject. He might receive your information with more enthusiasm than me.

Contact information can be found at http://history.wm.edu/srnels.html

I find Scott's suggestion about the "white house" to be reasonable - I've seen such a reference in at least one other song text (not "John Henry") in which it is clear that a penitentiary is meant. However, I suspect that this is an intrusion into "John Henry" from that other song, or another one yet, and not something of historic significance in connection with John Henry.

As you can construe from my other posts here, I strongly suspect that the further pursuit of the legendary John Henry at Big Bend will not be fruitful. I believe that the data of Guy Johnson and Louis Chappell come close to ruling out the possibity that John Henry did his thing at Big Bend. This does not correspond, of course, to their conclusions, but my reading of the data in their books leads me to the position that their data do not support their conclusions, which represent wishful thinking.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 21 Aug 02 - 05:08 PM

RB Haynes

RB,

You should also contact [e-mail], who contributed at least one message to this forum. He knows something about a John Henry in the Big Bend area. It could be that your information matches up with his.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 23 Aug 02 - 01:37 PM

A synopsis of my recent (2002) Tributaries article has been posted on the John Henry pages at

http://www.ibiblio.org/john_henry/index.html

It summarizes what I consider to be the most important evidence, but it is much less complete than the article itself.

An 1895 photograph of Coosa Mountain Tunnel is also posted (taken from my article) and a 1930 photograph of "John Henry's last steel drill," sticking up in the rock outside the east portal of Oak Mountain Tunnel, will probably be posted there late next week, about August 30 or so, 2002.

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From:
Date: 24 Aug 02 - 10:49 AM

Part two started by Art at Origins of John Henry - Part 2

Subject: RE: The origins of John Henry
From: GUEST,Rebecca
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:29 PM

Hey you never answered my question on what kind of things sailors had to have and/or do on a boat.

Subject: RE: Origins: John Henry
From: GUEST,coosa tunnel
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:10 PM

i live in leeds alabama, where is this tunnel?

Subject: RE: Origins: John Henry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 03:21 PM

Shelby County, *Norfolk Southern RR, 15 miles east of Birmingham, built in 1895.
* old C & W

Subject: RE: Origins: John Henry
From: GUEST,Don C resident of Leeds, Alabama
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 04:26 AM

It's been a while (3 years), since I first expressed my opinions on this subject; but I see in some recent articles in the B'ham News (09/03/06) and the Leeds News (09/07/06) that the "alleged" Leeds connection to the legend of John Henry is making a return engagement. The subject of John Henry initially appeared to some wishful thinking folks in Leeds several years ago in the form of a potential movie, tourist moneymaker (Talcott, WV was making tourist $$$) and it was something that "would put the city of Leeds on the map."   The current John Henry in Leeds connection is to be portrayed as a future significant historical event (All-star movie to follow). Its interesting to note that contrary to modern thought, neither history nor truth have any direct relationship to the proposed "John Henry Days" event; or at least in Leeds they don't. It appears that in Leeds you are free to create your history as you need it; forget about any truth or facts, bring on the fiction. All you need to do is officially declare a historical occasion based on some half-truths, convoluted suppositions and hearsay; provide some entertainment and games, invite some vendors and you are in business…let the tourist money roll in. The bases for any particular historical event does not have to be real, factual or actually have ever existed.

Oh well, you create your fun however you can and I suspect the city needs all the revenue it can collect from whatever sources, after all it has been extremely successful at going into mega-debt in anticipation of the "sometime" in the future Bass Pro Shop. At this rate I would expect that there would be a grand opening of "John Henry Land" before the grand opening of the BPS. If you build it, they (the suckers) will come.

Subject: RE: Origins: John Henry
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Sep 06 - 01:45 PM

With Rummy, Chummy and Dummy providing the example, 'creative' history is becoming the norm.

Subject: RE: Origins: John Henry
From: Lighter
Date: 26 May 20 - 10:43 AM

From today's "Napoleon's retreat" thread:

In 1929 the Skillet Lickers recorded "Bonaparte's Retreat" in a way easily identifiable as a Bonaparte-y version of "John Henry." In fact, if I hadn't known the title, I'd have thought it *was* "John Henry."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_vAbEYpQAk

Was some 19th century Southern "BR" the source of the "John Henry" tune?