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Non-Music -What the world has to say

katlaughing 16 Oct 01 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,Melani 16 Oct 01 - 05:03 PM
Kim C 16 Oct 01 - 05:25 PM
Ebbie 16 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM
katlaughing 16 Oct 01 - 07:04 PM
Ebbie 16 Oct 01 - 07:35 PM
katlaughing 16 Oct 01 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,petr 16 Oct 01 - 10:19 PM
GUEST,Terrie 16 Oct 01 - 11:05 PM
rangeroger 16 Oct 01 - 11:32 PM
Ebbie 17 Oct 01 - 12:45 AM
katlaughing 17 Oct 01 - 12:47 AM
Little Hawk 17 Oct 01 - 01:28 AM
Ebbie 17 Oct 01 - 01:40 AM
CarolC 17 Oct 01 - 03:29 AM
Ebbie 17 Oct 01 - 01:28 PM
Steve in Idaho 17 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM
jeffp 17 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,petr 17 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM
Stewart 17 Oct 01 - 05:09 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 17 Oct 01 - 05:58 PM
Big Mick 17 Oct 01 - 07:11 PM
DougR 17 Oct 01 - 07:57 PM
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Justa Picker 17 Oct 01 - 08:21 PM
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Peter K (Fionn) 17 Oct 01 - 09:01 PM
robomatic 17 Oct 01 - 09:28 PM
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Steve in Idaho 17 Oct 01 - 11:02 PM
Steve in Idaho 17 Oct 01 - 11:17 PM
CarolC 17 Oct 01 - 11:28 PM
Steve in Idaho 17 Oct 01 - 11:37 PM
CarolC 17 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM
katlaughing 17 Oct 01 - 11:46 PM
DougR 18 Oct 01 - 12:46 AM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 18 Oct 01 - 12:29 PM
GUEST,petr 18 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM
Wolfgang 18 Oct 01 - 12:48 PM
mousethief 18 Oct 01 - 12:51 PM
katlaughing 18 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Captain America 18 Oct 01 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Captain American 18 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM
Steve in Idaho 18 Oct 01 - 03:30 PM
CarolC 18 Oct 01 - 03:41 PM
Jeri 18 Oct 01 - 03:51 PM
Steve in Idaho 18 Oct 01 - 03:52 PM
CarolC 18 Oct 01 - 04:09 PM
Little Hawk 18 Oct 01 - 05:45 PM
Steve in Idaho 18 Oct 01 - 05:53 PM
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BH 18 Oct 01 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,pete m @ work 18 Oct 01 - 08:58 PM
GUEST,petr 18 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM
heric 18 Oct 01 - 09:23 PM
CarolC 18 Oct 01 - 09:30 PM
heric 18 Oct 01 - 09:55 PM
heric 18 Oct 01 - 10:03 PM
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heric 18 Oct 01 - 10:12 PM
heric 18 Oct 01 - 10:23 PM
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heric 18 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM
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heric 19 Oct 01 - 12:18 PM
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Subject: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 04:40 PM

A friend sent this to me. He is a retired history teacher and now, head of the state labor party. He has recently had a book published, All Empires Die, which I haven't had a chance to read, yet. Anyway, I thought this was very interesting:

Here follow editorial excerpts from newspapers around the world, taken from the November 2001 issue of World Press Review:

1. Mail&Guardian, Johannesburg, South Africa: (Sept. 14, 2001)

It is a safe assumption that the trigger for this week's attacks is the spiraling conflict in the Middle East, for which the United States must accept much responsibility. There can be no peace until the Israelis accept a Palestinian state, which in turn hinges on the removal of Israeli settlements from the occupied territories and concessions on the status of Jerusalem. . . .Without U.S. patronage, Israel cannot survive. What has the world's superpower done to push its client to the negotiating table?

2. The Canberra Times, Canberra Australia: (Sept. 19, 2001)

The Bush administration has largely turned a blind eye to Israel's current policy of officially assassinating its Palestinian enemies and has not taken an active role in brokering a peace deal. . . .American television coverage of the terrorist actions seemed sound enough on the basic facts, but there was very little to answer the underlying question as to why anyone would plan and execute such violence. As far as a lot of American commentators were concerned, the culprits were just a bunch of irrational maniacs striking out at a "perceived enemy."

3. Reforma, Mexico City, Mexico: (Sept. 12, 2001)

From the moment television and radio reported the attack, one of the first suspects seemed to be Islamic and Palestinian fundamentalism. The cause is obvious. Over the last several weeks and months we have been horrified at those young men ready to immolate themselves for the sake of wounding or hurting their irreconcilable enemies. Also well-known is the resentment and hate these groups harbor against the United States, the strategic ally of Israel.

4. Gatra (weekly magazine), Jakarta, Indonesia: (Sept. 22, 2001)

"American terrorism is more dangerous than other terrorisms," said Sheik Hamed Betawi, the preacher at a mosque in the Palestinian city of Nablus. According to him, what the U.S. government has committed against the Palestinians is a crime. "An injustice will bring another new injustice," he added. The Associated Press reported that the Friday sermons from Baghdad, Beirut, Gaza, and Palestine repeated the message that the attack was an unavoidable consequence of America's total support for Israel.

5. Semana. Bogota, Columbia: (Sept. 14, 2001

Almost 50 years ago, an Algerian fighting for independence explained, "We plant bombs in supermarkets because we do not have airplanes to bomb French cities, while the French have airplanes, so they bomb Algerian towns." The advance was that instead of putting a bomb in a passenger plane, the terrorists decided to use a passenger plane itself as a bomb.

This is natural progress, of course, in the war between the strong and the weak. It was only natural that after half a century of the American government devastating cities around the world--Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Korean villages, Hanoi, Beirut, Panama, Tripoli, Kabul, Baghdad, Belgrade--it would be New York and Washington's turn to experience horror. They have spent their whole lives sowing rancor through the world; they should not be surprised now by what they are reaping.

6. Nation Sudsapda Weekly, Bangkok Thailand: (Sept. 23, 2001)

From now on, the U.S. government must review its foreign policy toward the Middle East, particularly toward Israel, which has caused so much anger among Arabs. Otherwise, Americans' life overseas will have no guarantee of safety.

Even after the U.S. retaliates, as promised by President George W. Bush, that does not mean an end or decrease in terrorism. It might, on the contrary, spark a new form of more sophisticated terrorism.

The problem goes beyond the American territory and the American people. U.S. allies also may be targeted in the same manner that the United States targets the suspects as well as the "countries who helped or harbored" them.

7. El Watan, Algiers, Algeria: (Sept. 19, 2001

The West unconditionally backed the monarchies of the Gulf, a breeding ground of fundamentalism, because of their oil resources, while at the same time lending blinkered support to Israel's expansionist policies.

Resentment, widespread in the Arab world by the end of the 20th century, has been exploited by the fundamentalists, who have channeled it into a "holy war" (jihad) against the West. The West, and notably the United States, has learned nothing from all this. Worse, the West has aggravated frustrations the world over by canonizing laissez faire economics, whose centerpiece--globalization--heralds the systematic impoverishment of billions of people.

8. Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia: (Sept. 14, 2001)

In "the world that should be defended at any price," 30,000 children die of hunger every hour, while most of the developed countries experience a period of prosperity unprecedented in the history of mankind. Three million children in Africa die every year from tropical diseases such as malaria because a US$1 vaccine is out of their reach. America and its allies spent thousands of billions of dollars during the Cold War to stop the spread of communism. The task now is much more complex, and the main goal of foreign policy must be the opposite: to ensure aid so all parts of the world, including the poorest, can be integrated into a global economic and environmental network

9. Vecernji, Zagreb, Croatia: (Sept. 13, 2001)

Terror is never innocent, but there is no terror without reason. Avenging terror, punishing it, does not mean eliminating its causes. Furthermore, an inappropriate reprisal can exacerbate those causes.

The world of capitalism bows to two gods--money and technology. Everything that cannnot adapt, or does not want to adapt, to financial or technological standards faces scorn, poverty, and grief. Is there any person worthy of world renown, aside from the pope, whom the Western world has produced in recent decades? An admirable person, exemplifying morality and unselfishness?

10. Daily Telegraph, London, England: (Sept. 16, 2001)

The United States must punish Islamic fundamentalists for last Tuesday's unfathomable wickedness, but by doing so it could very well destabilize the very states in the Middle East upon which the world economy depends. For one of the geo-religious paradoxes of the planet is that the meridians of oil and Islam coincide, with virtually every state along those meridians being threatened by Islamic militants.

11. Netzeitung, Berlin, Germany: (Sept. 13, 2001)

The mood in the United States is clear: Hit someone, anyone! Show them that we will not tolerate such terrorism.

The problem is that terrorism cannot bve repressed through military reprisals or international morality. There is deeply rooted hostility in wide parts of the Arab world against the West and, especially, against the United States. Have we forgotten the photos of burning American flags? The determination of Hamas members when they attack Israel?

12. Eleftherotypia, Athens, Greece: (Sept. 16, 2001)

The blind clash that leads to "human bombs," in conjunction with contemporary lifestyles, portrays the size of the dangers ahead. Under these circumstances, the weapons are not contemporary technology, intelligence services, a police state, or defense enhancement; they are democracy, education and the interaction of the two civilizations. They are the bridging of the gap, and not the pseudo-economic approach between developed countries and those of the Third World. The organized and stern reaction to terrorism should not lead to any compromises for democracy.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:03 PM

No shit, Sherlock. We've been living the good life at the expense of people all over the world, ignoring the implications of keeping Palestinians in scummy refugee camps for 50 years, and generally acting as if there are no interests except our own. What a surprise that they really don't like us!

The only way out of this is to somehow make the Israelis and Palestinians negotiate like they mean it until both sides have given up enough to make the other guys happy, and the Palestinians have somewhere to call home. Then somebody else has got to enforce the terms on both of them. The trouble has been that every time a leader looks like he might really want to make peace, some idiot fanatic assasinates him.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Kim C
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 05:25 PM

Why is it OUR fault that the Israelis and Palestinians refuse to get along? Everytime they call a cease fire, somebody breaks it. And yes, somebody assassinates the leader who tries to make it work.

For a nation that lives at the expense of other people, we sure do dole out a lot of money to aid other countries.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM

It's high time, in fact perilously late, that the U.S. and the rest of the western world call a conference to explore reasons and solutions for the present-day terroristic environment. The U.S. has to face and acknowledge – and soon - its role of the last 50 years in destabilizing and antagonizing powerless countries- far too frequently we have put our money and power behind despots and tyrants because of a sometimes fleeting perceived advantage to us.

We have to start thinking outside the box that we've trapped ourselves in. If the western world called a conference for the best minds and the leaders of affected countries to come together and explore ways and means, it could defuse the current situation. Especially if it were the U.S. who called for the conference. Just think - if the U.S. took the lead in changing the course of the world- 50 years from now, we could still be reaping the benefits.

In the meantime, rather than bombing the hell out of an already ravaged country and threatening others, we could concentrate on security issues.

There is simply no way that the U.S. can 'eradicate' terrorism. If we kill every one of the leaders, we will create another generation of killers. That means that our stated goal is not possible.

All countries act out of self-interest. However, many of our actions, military and otherwise, have boomeranged. We've got to get smarter about it.

IMO

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:04 PM

Well put, Ebbie and I agree. If only...


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:35 PM

But we must/em>. Can we form a coalition, start marching, inundate our leaders with suggestions, write, speak publicly...?

We accept that each of us has the ability to reach anyone in the country within less than 10 moves- can we work on that?

I think it is imperative. We're going down a slippery slope.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 07:56 PM

The www.moveon.org people did it when Clinton was under seige. I don't know what they are up to right now, but I will check. They are good people, from all walks of life, all parties, and have in place the mechanisms, etc. to get something going. Good news, I think. Take a look at their site. It looks as though this is all they are working on and discussing at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 10:19 PM

yes you can eradicate terrorism, it will take a lot of work both politically and militarily. And I dont buy this Root Causes argument, That now the chickens have come home to roost. There are terrorists around that are just brainwashed angry young men, what did Japan do to deserve AUm SHinrikyo or the Japanese Red Army in the 70s for example. The Baader MeinHof gang the Symbionese Liberation army, ANd for that matter Abu Nidal where are they now. We even had a few in Canada, of course there was the FLQ but there was also Direct Action here in BC which blew up Hydro stations and other targets in the early 80s (hardly anyone hears about them now) To say that the US asked for it, lends legitimacy to what the terrorists did.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Terrie
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:05 PM

Oh thank you so much Kat, now I can post this piece which has been eating my heart out.

My friend Colleen arrived for a facial when FBI agents were leaving Murad on Sunday, October 7, 2001. They were there to interrogate a girl who worked there to find out if she knew anything. The reason for their lead was she was best-friends with a girl who was dating an Arab man, who disappeared and was involved in the terrorist attacks on the WTC. He disappeared this summer and left her a note, saying the following in the effect of: "I have to go away and will not be able to see you again. Please do me a favor and do not fly in any planes on September 11, 2001 nor shop at any shopping malls on October 31, 2001 ......... " Don't know about you but I live across the street from a shopping mall, and my in-laws do too. Given my daughter is usually at their house on a Wednesday afternoon, right near the mall, am thinking of where else to go. Halloween may not be so Happy. Please send this to anyone that you know. Let's hope this isn't for real, but since it was actually left in a letter to a loved one from one of the people involved in the attacks of September 11, 2001, I am not taking it too lightly. Love, Terrie Terrie Myerchin Executive Assistant DIRECTV, Inc. 2230 E. Imperial Hway El Segundo, CA. 90245 T: (310) 964-4199 F: (310) 535-5317 TPMyerchin@directv.com


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: rangeroger
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:32 PM

GUEST,Terrie, that is a hoax and has already been debunked.

rr


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:45 AM

Terrie, I'm sure that what rangerroger meant to say is this is a hoax making the rounds; you can find it at this site:http://www.snopes2.com/rumors/rumors.htm

Rough as a cob there, eh, rr?

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:47 AM

Thanks, rr and Ebbie.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:28 AM

It would be well to remember how and why the USA was founded in the first place, and ask the question...why was it founded?

It was founded in order to establish radical new social and political freedoms from a distant and autocratic monarchy, and to set up those freedoms in a brand new way.

It was NOT done to make a shitload of money and sell consumer goods to a jaded and regimented public living a bloated lifestyle at the expense of much of the rest of the world.

The founders of America would not recognize what it has become...and yet the same cliches are spoken again and again by American presidents about freedom, democracy, and justice...as though those values had anything to do any longer with American policy.

American policy has to do with money and the gun. Money and the gun. Markets. Banks. Stocks and bonds. Military supremacy. Pork bellies. Oil. Territory. Immediate material gain. Wrap it in the flag and call it democracy, but the world outside America is not fooled.

What is going on is plainly obvious to the rest of the world, and that is why such hatred has been engendered against America and its allies (one of which is my own country) among the poor and disenfranchised people in smaller and weaker countries. America is now Boss Tweed, and her allies are his cronies, running a new Tammany Hall over most of the world. The whole world knows it! It's as obvious as a total eclipse of the sun at high noon. America's corporate logos are seen in every corner of the Earth now.

As long as big money behind the scenes wins every election (because it owns every large political party) and calls every shot in North America...how can this be changed?

When men live just for money they lose their souls. Talk about the Heart of Darkness! It lives and beats on your TV and your radio. It beckons you to the mall. Eat, drink, and spend...for tomorrow you die. (Maybe even today.) Grow fat, like a guinea pig in a cage.

All that money and all that creative genius has largely gone to waste. The real problems in the world have been ignored while ways were sought to sell even more stuff so some huge corporations could make an even bigger profit.

And none of that has anything to do with real freedom at all. In fact it's beginning to threaten everyone's freedom now. Everywhere. The poor people are not your real enemy...it just looks that way reflected on the grinning shiny surface of the corporate mask that beckons you to the mall, and enslaves you nine to five...if you haven't been downsized yet.

A corporation has no soul, but it does have hunger, needs, and a continual agenda to enlarge itself...just like a cancerous growth on the human body.

To oppose American policy in the world is not to be anti-American, because ordinary Americans are themselves the victims of it, as are other people, but in a different way. The desire for money without consideration of morality, actual need, or sanity has brought us to our present pass...and insanity in high places is very good at provoking opposing insanity in low places...as we have all seen recently.

Can terrorism be eradicated through an aggressive response? I doubt it. There are too many "Injuns" out there this time for you to kill and pen up in reservations, but I do think poverty, homelessness, injustice and inequity can be eradicated...a piece at a time.

That will not, however, happen when 98% of the USA's national effort continues going toward playing the same old games of money and the gun which exterminated 30 million buffalo a century and a half ago...for a quick buck. The native people who witnessed it could hardly believe such corrupt greed could exist. It still commands your armies to this day, from way back behind the outer facade of patriotism, honor and duty. That is not to judge your soldiers, who are, like most people, innocent men of good intention, but they know not what they serve.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:40 AM

Little Hawk, we came by the greed and cruelty honestly- remember where we came from? *G*

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 03:29 AM

This may be somewhat off topic on this thread, but I don't know where it would be more appropriate.

About ten years ago, when my son was about seven or eight and going through an extremely stressful experience, he and I were playing Monopoly one evening. He was being very aggressive and wanting to completely control the game, beyond what was allowed by the rules. This behavior was understandable considering his age and the circumstances he was experiencing. I decided to go with what he was doing, and try an experiment.

I told him that instead of playing Monopoly, we were going to play "Dictator". Using the Monopoly game as the basis for this new game, I explained the rules. I told him that he could make any rules he wanted. He could completely control everything that happened in the game. He could completely control the money. He could have as many of the playing pieces he wanted except for the one I needed to remain in the game. He could control all of the real estate, utilities, railroads, hotels, and houses.

In other words, he had complete control over the game, and the way it was played. Except for one thing. He was the Dictator and I was the peasants. I could, as the peasants, decide to have an uprising at any time that I thought it might be productive. This meant that I could steal his playing piece off of the game board whenever I thought I could get away with it. And according to the new rules, if he ran out of playing pieces, I would win the game.

At first, he ruled the game with an incredibly tight fist. I started out with one playing piece and one piece of real estate. After a short time, he had me so deeply in debt to him, it would take generations for me to pay it off. If it could be paid off at all. I began to initiate peasant uprisings. If he looked away from the board for just a moment, I stole his piece. I devised all kinds of ways to divert his attention and take his piece without him noticing. I found all kinds of ways that he wouldn't expect to take his piece. He had to maintain the utmost vigilance at all times. He couldn't relax for even a moment. At this point, being in total dictatorial control started to lose its appeal to him. He began to get tired of it.

After a little while, he started to become much more lenient. Then he became generous. He learned what sort of balance was needed to keep the peasants happy enough that they didn't feel that attempting an uprising was worth the risk.

I think both he and I learned a lot playing that game.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:28 PM

Great idea, CarolC! And something he will probably utilize with his own children some day.

It would be nice if something like that could be devised for world leaders- rather than War Strategy exercises.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

I'm really sorry - but to generalize to America is no better than to generalize to Palestinians, Muslims, or any other group. No one had what occurred on September 11 owed to them.

I say again - No one.

The inferences that America did something to invite this is really sad to me. This planet is a socially evolving one and today is not yesterday just as yesterday is not tomorrow. Look around you all in this forum. You have made alliances about belief systems and anchored it with historical analogies. This is the same rationale that drives people to do acts of destruction in the name of something or another.

Generalizing that one group or another's actions/inactions, divided by race, national origin, religion, color, or whatever, is the reason for an action for or against another group is simply bigoted and racist.

All of the above is being said in a very thoughtful, soft, gentle manner (I've been feeling pretty sad lately so maybe that is why I state this). I blame no one here or elsewhere for the terrible things being done in the name of "God." People make choices and act on those choices. Those same people that act on their choices must also be held accountable for their actions. It is called responsibility.

I would hope that mankind would be able to take this tragedy and permeate a truth from it that would allow all of us to change how we do business with each other.

What do you think folks?

Steve


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: jeffp
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

Sort of an update on the old Sword of Damocles, isn't it? I like your idea, Carol.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM

Lhawk, the one thing about economic globalism is that it is democratic, one can choose not to go that Macdonalds or buy Nike. a western reporter recently interviewed people in Egypt many of whom were strongly anti american and said that America deserved it, almost invariably the conversations turned to how they could come to the US and get a job there.

excellent comment STeve I agree.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Stewart
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:09 PM

October 12, 2001; New York Times

Bush to bin Laden

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

The White House has asked U.S. networks to limit broadcasts of statements by Osama bin Laden. I wish that instead of censorship, the president would respond to him. Here's what Mr. Bush could say:

Dear bin Laden: I've listened to the statement you released through Al Jazeera TV. Since I know that no Arab or Muslimleader will dare answer you, I thought I would do it. Let me be blunt: Your statement was pathetic. It's obvious from what you said that you don't have a clue why we're so strong or why the Arab regimes you despise are so weak.

You spoke about the suicide attacks on us as being just revenge for the "80 years of humiliation and disgrace" the Islamic nation has gone through. You referred to the hijackers as a Muslim vanguard sent "to destroy America," the leader of the "international infidels," and you denounced the Arab regimes as "hypocrites" and "hereditary rulers."

What was most revealing, though, was what you didn't say: You offered no vision of the future. This was probably your last will and testament — I sure hope so — and you could have said anything you wanted to future generations. After all, it was your mike. Yet you had nothing to say. Your only message to the Muslim world was whom to hate, not what to build — let alone how.

In part it's because you really don't know much about Islamic history. The Muslim world reached the zenith of its influence in the Middle Ages — when it preserved the best of classical Greek and Roman teachings, and inspired breakthroughs in mathematics, science, medicine and philosophy. That is also when Islam was at its most open to the world, when it enriched, and was enriched by, the Christian, Greek and Jewish communities in its midst — whom you now disparage as infidels — and when it was actively trading with all corners of the world. Your closed, inward, hate-filled version of Islam — which treats women as cattle and all non-Muslims as enemies — corresponds with no period of greatness for Islam, and will bring none.

It was also revealing that the only Arab state you mentioned was Iraq. Interesting — Iraq is led by a fascist dictator, Saddam Hussein, who used poison gas against his own people, who squandered Iraq's oil wealth to build himself palaces and who raped Kuwait. But you are silent about all that. What bothers you is our targeted sanctions to end such a regime — not the regime itself.

In other words, you not only don't understand the Muslim past, you don't understand its present. The reason these past 80 years have been so stagnant for the Arab-Muslim world is not because we in America have been trying to keep you down. Actually, we haven't been thinking about you much at all. No, the difference between American power, Chinese power, Latin American power and Arab-Muslim power today is what we've each been doing for these past 80 years. We and others have been trying to answer many questions: How do we best educate our kids? How do we increase our trade? How do we build an industrial base? How do we increase political participation? And we judged our leaders on how well they answered all those questions.

But people like you want Arabs and Muslims to ask only one question of their leaders: How well did you fight the infidels and Israelis? I know that who rules Jerusalem is a deeply important part of your heritage, and every Arab-Muslim leader must address it. But it can't be the only question. Yet, because people like you have reduced it to the only question, and tried to intimidate every Arab who wanted to ask other questions, you have allowed your region to be led by scoundrels, like Saddam.

Yes, you've wreaked some havoc, bin Laden, but don't flatter yourself into thinking you can destroy us. You have to build something strong to destroy something strong. But you can't. Because all the intellectual and creative energies in the Arab-Muslim world — which are as bountiful as in any other region — can never reach their full potential under repressive regimes like Iraq or leaders like yourself.

Stalin and Mao killed a lot of their own people, but even these thugs had a plan for their societies. You, bin Laden, are nothing but a hijacker — a hijacker of Islam, a hijacker of other people's technology, a hijacker of a vast Arab nation's anger at its own regimes. But you have no vision and no plan for your people. Which is why your epitaph will be easy to write:

Osama bin Laden — he destroyed much, he built nothing. His lasting impact was like a footprint in the desert.

----------------------------------------------------

This is a well-thought reply to much of the above.
S. in Seattle


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:58 PM

Steve - yep.

petr - also notice how many people from other countries come to the US to get an education. I heard some of those "America asked for it" comments by a Middle Eastern doctor who had got his MD here in the states. Go figure.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:11 PM

I am a liberal, left wing, labor organizer. As to the cause of the Palestinians and there right to an independent homeland, I am in support, but only if there is an acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist. I am appalled at the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli government, and sickened by my own government turning a blind eye to it. In the opening moments of this tragedy, on the Mudcat, I posted that I felt as though we must respond strategically and surgically. And I said several times that we must also enter into a time of introspection in order to understand what causes these types of actions. Smarter folks than I have posted above about this. Having said that.....

These people killed 6000 innocents. Folks that were doing nothing more than prosecuting their daily lives. Now it appears that they are attempting to unleash biological terror, again, on innocents. bin Laden, on TV, has said that he intends to kill every American that he can. That makes my children and my family a target. And finally, he has murdered innocence. I am not being emotional here, I just understand who his targets are, and the horrid lengths he will go to to achieve them. With that understanding comes commitment. In this matter I am not liberal, I am not conservative. I am the intended victim. Been that before. As before, I am not going to allow that. My opinion is that we must wipe out this organization. Its structure must not survive the conflict. Its leaders, as well as the perpetrators of the bio terror (whomever they are) must be hunted down and eliminated. Period. Any government which in any way supports these acts in a tangible way must suffer the same fate. There is such a thing as a just war. This act, and the acts of the bio terrorists, have made this one of those. I would go tomorrow if asked, and I believe we must be ruthless and relentless in this task.

Do not mistake this as vitriol. It is a declaration of understanding of the aims of the perpetrators of this act. I still feel as I did in the beginning with regard to seeking to be a more responsible citizen state of this world we live in. I want us to be respectful of other cultures, and more responsible in our use of the limited resources that the Earth Mother has provided for us. I want us to advocate on behalf of the downtrodden, and use our resources to feed the children. But anyone that seeks to hunt me and mine, is my enemy. And I don't believe in being gentle with predators such as these.

Rant ended.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:57 PM

Hear, hear, Mick. Excellent summation of the situation I think.

I really believe the people who do not agree with your POV simply do not understand the enemy we are facing, and how committed they are to achieving their goals. DougR


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:10 PM

I do understand the visceral response- we all have it, I think.

My point is: Where does it end? You hit me, I hit you, you hit me, my children hate you, your children hate me, ad infinitum.

Might it not be better for me to find out why you hit me?

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:21 PM

Ditto Mick.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Leila
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:58 PM

If the U.S. helps those who are struggling, they are vilified for sticking their noses into other peoples business. If the U.S. doesn't help those who are suffering, they are vilified for letting them suffer.

If the U.S. bombs strongholds of the Taliban - who harbour a man when even other fundamentalist Muslim nations agree that there is compelling evidence to subject him to a trial, who murder women for having skin, who subvert religion to such disgusting ends... they are vilified for it. If the U.S. drops thousands of pounds of food - Islamic faith appropriate food!! to the starving Afghani people, long time victims of that same Taliban - hmmm, this isn't mentioned much...

Why do they bother? Good question.

Is the U.S. perfect? Infallible? Ha! - Is anyone? But there's imperfect, there's fallible and then there's evil.

George W. (IMHO) didn't win the election, let's face it he's not the sharpest tool in the shed. But he went on international TV and told anyone who targets people just because they appear to be middle eastern, or are Muslim should be ashamed of themselves. THe U.S. media is going out of their way to educate people to how far away from the Islamic faith the Taliban and bin Laden are. That muslims are NOT about terrorism and murder.

That is NOT about teaching their children to hate - that is about learning your facts before you act rashly. The U.S. didn't act rashly, they waited they had clear evidence as to who did it. They asked for him to be turned over for TRIAL. THey said what would happen if refused. They followed through. THey took every precaution to only hit military and gov't sites - to not harm civilians. They do not achieve perfection in this, but they try.

I have been pleasantly surprised at how well this atrocity has been handled by "W" and the U.S.

Peace, Leila


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:01 PM

KimC, from your facile remark about American generosity to the world, I guess you are aware of onoly half the story.

Yes, the US, with its six per cent of the world population chews up 30 to 50 per cent of the world's finite resources (according to whose figures you take) and accounts for nearly half of all global pollution. But what does it give back, or even invest in the development of the world's poorest nations? Virtually nothing.

Even the US government accepts that eradication of poverty and malnutration, worldwide, would take less than one per cent of the global economy. That's why the UN set a target for OECD countries to invest 0.7 per cent of their GNPs in international development aid. Some countries (eg Sweden, Norway, Japan) exceed this. The UK is managing a miserable 0.38 per cent at present. Where is the US? Bottom of the list, of course, with a shaming 0.09 per cent.

Even if you go by actual dollars, the US comes behind Japan, Germany and one or two others, notwithstanding that it is the world's richest country by miles.

As for that drivel posted by Stewart, I was particularly amused to read: you don't have a clue why we (America) are so strong.... Strong? In some parts of the world it looks like America has been turned into a headless chicken by a few nutters with penknives and white sand. When it comes to the crunch, America is no stronger than anywhere else, because it is just as vulnerable as the rest of us to criminal protest.

As for you, Big Mick, I'm surprised! I suppose the present campaign is indeed surgical, to the extent that unlike in the Balkan fiasco they have so far managed to avoid bombing the wrong country. God knows what they are hitting though, apart from Red Cross dumps and UN mine-clearing personnel. (Difficult to cover up blunders on that scale I suppose.)

During those early weeks of commendable restraint, it really looked like there was a chance for real progress. But hope went out of the window once the missiles started flying. American networks will soon be full of images of homeless families starving through this coming winter in their thousands. And in months to come, the heroes flying the gunships etc will come home to find they are not heroes at all, but the living embodiment of their nation's guilty conscience. But this time they will have no excuse, because they had the chance to learn from the experiences of you, Mick, and your comrades in arms in an earlier campaign, as you once recounted so movingly in another thread.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:28 PM

Stewart's posting of Friedman's editorial just about said it all. I would add that no one mentions the great efforts made by most American Presidents this side of the 1970's to broker a fair peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians, up to Clinton's attempt at which Arafat pretty much refused to deal.

I would add finally that there IS a Palestinian State. It is called Jordan. Progress would be made if all those Palestinians in camps in Gaza and elsewhere would relocate there.

Asking Israel to diminish itself to indefensible borders would not advance the cause of peace, quite the reverse.

American aide to the world in general is far and ahead of any other country's. Remember not to define aide in some narrow band of contributions to the U.N. or World Bank. Consider the Marshall plan, which I believe Sir Winston referred to as 'the most unsordid act in history'. He had a way with words.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:59 PM

Fionn, my friend, I am no different than I ever was. But you need to reread what I said. There were several distinct aspects to it. One deals with what I want to have happen from an intellectual standpoint. But the other is very real, and deals with a whole other aspect. This man killed 6,000 people in one swoop. And it appears that he, or those that support him, are now attempting to use biological weapons to kill Americans............and by his own words, all Americans. That moves me to a whole different place, a place that I didn't want to be again. We can intellectualize all we want, but the fucker is mailing military weapons grade Anthrax. He is hunting me and mine, again by his own words. This is an animal, and it needs to be removed.

Rest assured, Fionn, that I will be in the streets if we go to indiscriminate bombing. Yes, there have been mistakes, there always will be. If we get sloppy, I will be in the van. But this creature and his nest must be dealt with.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:02 PM

No Fionn - Hope went out the window when the terrorists smashed the planes into the towers.

And as far as Drivel goes - I work for the Air Force and it is my unit that is doing the bombing over there. Unless you have experience in combat I'd suggest you speak easy about what is happening. It isn't all nice and pretty like what you play on your little gameboy. One's aim gets a bit off when others are shooting at you.

We buried our first casualty today. I buried others in another war. So if I am pissed - well so be it. And don't you dare frickin patronize me and the other combat veterans you pompous ass. You bet it bothers me that we are back at it again - but I believe we are doing the best we can. It's no win for the most part. And we are being as surgical as we can be. Where do the Taliban locate their valued items? Close as they can to places that will catch headlines when a shell goes off a bit.

You like your life so well - live it - but at what cost are you willing to turn your cheek - eh mate?

F**Kin pissed

Good on you Mick - Steve


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:17 PM

My Dream -

The year is 2032. A boy, about eight years old, is taking a walk with his grandfather in lower Manhattan. They come to a large field where the grandfather pauses, takes off his hat, and sighs. They boy turns to his grandfather and asks, "What's wrong, Grandpa?"

"Well, on this beautiful field used to be the World Trade Center. The two tallest buildings in the world used to sit right here on this spot. They were the heart of the world's financial center, and wonderful symbols of this great city of ours." "Where are they now, Grandpa?"

"Some Arabs blew them up back in 2001."

The boy thinks for a moment, then turns back and says: "What's an Arab?"

Steve


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:28 PM

Steve, I hope I have misread your post. Are you suggesting that we should kill all Arabs?


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:37 PM

You misread Carol - I would hope that we could come to the point where we recognize each other as humans and all members of the human race.

When I get angry I don't always get clear. I got angry at Fionn's post. Ah crap - why do I get baited into these little trollops -

Sorry - I swore I wouldn't get baited into these little firefights and then what do I do?

Maybe 30 years isn't enough time.

- Steve

Would you remove that post for me Joe? It doesn't make sense now that I read it myself - Crap crap crap crap -


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM

Thanks Steve. I share your dream about all of us recognizing each other as members of the human race. I don't think you need for that post to be deleted now that you've made yourself clear. It's a good sentiment.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:46 PM

Steve, I think it is a worthy dream. Thanks for posting it.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: DougR
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:46 AM

Norton 1, I think were you to substitute the word terrorist for Arab, you would have a nice little story there.

Don't let Fionn get under your skin, Steve. I'm sure he is satisfied having others fight his battles for him so that he can continue spewing his hate of the U. S. Fortunately, he represents the minority view I believe.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:29 PM

You're right, Fionn, I don't know the whole story and have never claimed to. But it's like Leila said, we're damned if we do and damned if we don't.

Perhaps you will consider this facile, too, and perhaps rightfully so... but because I am ignorant of many matters, and freely admit it, I ask these questions because I wish to be enlightened.

The U.S. buys an awful lot of products from other countries. An AWFUL LOT. Look at your clothing labels and you'll see we get things from Russia and the Eastern Bloc countries, not to mention Pakistan, Israel, Egypt, China, Japan, Taiwan, Indonesia, etc. etc. etc. A lot of the lapis lazuli in the jewelry trade comes from - guess where - Afghanistan. And everyone knows where we get most of our oil from.

Does our trade with such countries not help their economy? If not, how is that our fault? We cannot control what happens to the funds when another government gets ahold of them. Or can we? I don't know.

Is it somehow wrong for us to try to aid the poor and destitute within our own borders before we go giving aid and comfort to other countries? Sure, this is a prosperous country, but there's a lot of people here who need help. Do we not have a duty to them first?

Somebody enlighten me, because I really do not know.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:34 PM

of course fionn you are entitled to your facile drivel as well. but you ought to keep in mind that Bin Ladens decree includes you as well (all americans and their allies civilian or otherwise) p


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:48 PM

Steve's 'What are Arabs?' story has been told even with the same year (2032) in the 'Jokes in worst possible taste thread' as a joke. Silly me to have misunderstood a friendly human touch story as a racist joke.

Steve, I guess you have read that joke some place and failed to understand the brutal punchline.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:51 PM

As of Sept 22, when did the US flatten Kabul, as per the Indonesian newspaper? Not to pick nits, but wasn't it the Soviets who flattened Kabul? Clearly different standards of factuality hold for these foreign newspapers. Which makes their editorializing rather hard to take at face value.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM

Wolfgang, thanks for pointing that out. I'd missed that thread. I just took it to mean the child knew no prejudices by then, but I see know how it could also be very racist. Best told with some modifications, perhaps.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:02 PM

Mousethief,

Good point about irrational editorializing by many newspapers abroad. It is pretty amusing the way that the U.S. is viewed by many as the source of all evil even when the roots of many problems date to times when the U.S. did not exist or when it had virtually no involvement in international affairs. For example, many conflicts in the Middle East and Asia stem from the colonialist programs of European nations. And unless I am mistaken, people in these areas were trying to conquer and/or exploit one another long before European-based colonialism developed. And sorry but the U.S. is far from being the only capitalist nation. In fact, we didn't even invent it or fully participate in it for a long time. That credit must go elsewhere. So yes, the U.S. is a major player in current world affairs and no we are not perfect, but don't try to make us a scapegoat for the basic fact that humans have been and will be shitty toward each other. If the U.S. did try to adopt an isolationist policy, the same people who criticize us for causing harm would be begging us to get back involved in mediating disputes, providing aid, and participating in the global economy.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Captain American
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM

An addendum:

What the "World" says must be taken with a grain of salt. Much of the criticism comes from a small (but very vocal) portion of the population of various countries. News reports can be deceptive since they always focus on tthe most dramatic scenes such as a few thousand protesters in a city of millions. Following such logic one could say that Bush's policy has no domestic support because ten percent of American do not approve of his actions and there have been some anti-war protests on college campuses.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:30 PM

Wolfgang - I didn't read the thing as a joke - I thought it was a point about time healing wounds and the old man being a generation that saw the discrimination and the boy as the generation that saw equality. I guess it can be read in two ways - I sure didn't read it as one that advocated the elimination of any group.

Katlaughing - in retrospect it should have been modified. That is why I thought it should have been removed after I read Carol's post. Two views here and I stuck myself in the middle.

DougR - When people talk about Veterans in the way he did - I remember being asked to leave places because I had been in the military and was fresh back from Viet Nam. I remember the names we were called. I get enraged. It hurts like hell.

I disagree with war - I wish there were some other way - but I refuse to compromise on how we treat those who serve in our stead. It's kind of like the anti-war vs. peace thread. It's like those who have helped the Muslims in this country to be safe from racists by being with them and dressing in a similar manner to protect these innocents. Have any view you want on the war - but be careful not to blame the troops for the problem. That is a political issue that needs to be tasked.

Steve

I do feel a bit better that I was not the only one who saw the story as a story of hope and not one of brutal racism.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:41 PM

Steve, based on previous posts of yours, I think I would have seen your little vignette in the way you intended it. But it came right after the post in which you were angry with Fionn. So I thought you might be writing the vignette in anger as well. Maybe, if you want to use that story in the future, all you need to do is add a little disclaimer saying that this is your dream for the future of a unified and racist free humanity.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:51 PM

The rest of the world, and some in the US don't have any realistic alternatives to bombing terrorist targets, either. The alternative would be reasoned talk, and how do you do that with a man who kills thousands of people simply to get noticed? A man who wants to simply kill Americans and encourages others to do so? We had to do something. If you have ideas on what we should do, that would also have a high probability of effectiveness, go ahead and share.

If anyone thinks your country's government is better than the government of the US, what would they do in the same circumstance?


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:52 PM

Ah Carol - Have I Thanked You for the Thank you for your service note? If not Thank you -

I wish I had your patience and clarity -

My Janet is that way - always thinks before she speaks - always clear - always gentle -

Steve


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 04:09 PM

Well, Steve, you're welcome and thank you. And I'm glad you have someone like your Janet in your life.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:45 PM

Petr - I agree that economic globalism is, in the strictly political sense, "democratic". The question is, though, is it sane?

I don't think so. You can see the damage mounting all around you, even in your own town, year by year...damage to culture, society, health and environment.

It's entirely possible to democratically convince any population of something that is still self-defeating, blind, and wrong. God knows, it's been done over and over again throughout history, long before the consumer society came along. It's done through propaganda, advertising, and appealing to people's lowest and most primitive instincts (fear, greed, prejudice, and immediate gain). That's how elections are won too...in democracies like the USA and Canada.

Populations are generally disabused of this common propaganda only when it leads to a debacle that makes them completely lose confidence in it. As long as they remain personally comfortable, the majority will support any kind of nonsensical program that's handed down to them from on high by their leaders. It's when that program blows up in their faces that they change their minds.

I believe that until all people get a basically equal start in life in all parts of the world, we will continue to have great injustice, and all the troubles that stem from it. That's why I can't look at a situation from the point of view of just one country. We are either all human...or we're not. If we are all human, then we all would benefit from starting out on an equal playing field.

This requires worldwide peaceful programs and solutions, not military conflicts. It requires a world Bill of Rights, and a world Justice system. When will it come? Probably not in our lifetimes, but that doesn't mean it isn't worth aspiring toward.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:53 PM

You are correct Little Hawk. But how would we deal with "World Government?" Scares more people than terrorists.

Steve


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:36 PM

We would deal with it by having a great deal of sovereignty on a local basis (more than now!), while centrally securing the most basic of human rights on a universal basis. By encouraging locally elected government, locally developed industry, locally produced art, and so on...and discouraging vast, centralized commercial monopolies that are not accountable to anyone on a local basis.

That is how a democratic society functions. The most basic rights are universally protected by a centralized constitution that provides all with the same rights and protections...while all the things that can better be done on a local basis ARE done on a local basis: (like business, agriculture, art, commerce, and so on) and are given as much local autonomy as possible. It's been done in single nations. Now it needs to be done worldwide.

The communists erred by over-centralizing everything and by NOT democratizing at the same time. They attempted to achieve social universality (and in some ways did that quite well), but did it at the expense of human rights and freedoms. Their social plans were also scuppered by the fact that they spent themselves into bankruptcy trying to fight the Cold War...an endeavour that they did not necessarily anticipate doing when they started out in 1917.

The West has erred by swamping local structures and rendering them helpless through massive commercial propaganda and financial domination from afar by huge multinational corporations who are virtually beyond accountability to anyone. The common citizen has no way of influencing them other than by not buying their product, and it is ridiculously easy for them to manipulate the common citizen's tastes and habits through constant advertising and easy availability of their product...so there is virtually NO chance that enough citizens will take action against them at any one time that it would make much of a difference.

Ultimately, social policy has to be steered from the top...toward not making more money...but toward making less poverty and inequality in the world. That requires a leadership who are moved more by moral concerns than by financial ones. Such leaders exist, but they are very rare nowadays...and in constant danger, I would surmise, of being eliminated (by any means, including assassination) if they genuinely try to change the status quo.

Since politicians are funded by the very forces that run the status quo, they are not likely to overthrow it and institute a system based on true equality.

There is a huge ongoing effort out there to keep making the rich richer, and that can only lead to further great tragedies for the ordinary people...and ultimately for the rich as well, when the shit really hits the fan, as it did in France in the late 1700's and in Russia in 1917 and in Iran in more recent times.

All the wars presently seen on Earth are due to the fact that people have failed to act as members of one family, with the equal rights and privileges that family members ought to have.

We have reached the natural end of the nation-building phase of history, and now must soon build a world society. If done properly, it is in no way a threat to individual rights and freedoms...quite the contrary...it will secure them.

I believe one of the most crucial freedoms of all is: freedom from fear. How many people truly have that now in our disunited world? Americans certainly do not at this point, nor does anyone else.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: BH
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:56 PM

A long discussion going in many directions--let me be brief and --hopefully--succint:

The Friedman article--which I had read --is really right on.

The Israeli/Palestinian isssue was never mentioned by the Bin Laden crowd till now---so -- a red herring Their beef was us and the Saudis.

As to the U>S>. Let us remember a few thiings---Marshall Plan, Truman Doctrine,etc; We learned to rebuild our enemies because of the mistakes after WW 1 which set Germany on its horrible course leading to WW 2.

As to the Palestinians. Let us remember 1948 and the attack by the Arab nations and their promising those who left Israel(Palestinians) safe return when it was over. Well, you know what happened---Israel survived and the Arabs would not integrate their brethren---rather they ended up in camps. The Israelis had asked them to remain, but they chose to listen to their "saviours".

The bottom line to all this is that we try our best---and, yes, protect our interests. Why not? Tough to deal with people who have an agenda totally alien to the 21st century. Interestingly enough these same "terrorist" (I use the word purposely), have great wealth and are using the poor and starving as cannon fodder to kill even more innocents. The reason---as it has been throughout history---power and as Dylan said---God on Our Side. They decide who and what god is.

Damn---sure wish Ishmael had turned left and Abel had turned right. The oil would have ended up with us.

Bill H


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,pete m @ work
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 08:58 PM

Alex I'm surprised that you think that either news reporting or editorial content of US newspapers is any more factual or less biased than those elesewhere in the world. They are all there to push a viewpoint. There may be varying degrees of intent, but all editorial functions impose the world view of the editor.

If I could elaborate a point of view which is prominent amongst commentators and personal contacts on this side of the world, and which seems to have been either missed or misinterpreted in the US. NO-ONE condones the action on Sept. 11th, nor do they think the US 'deserved it'. What we have problems with understanding is the degree to which the US as a whole seems to be surprised that anyone would want to do this to them.

I believe that to a large extent it is not a US thing per se, part at least is based on the fact that the US is the dominant world power militarily and economically. I don't think any honest person expects the US to be or behave any better than any other country, but there is a definite perception that the US itself thinks that it is. And in this, as in most things in life, it's perception not facts that count. The perception in the rest of the world, NOT just the muslim part of it, is that despite protestations after Sept 11 the US will continue to support terrorists and 'state sponsored terrorism' if it is done by friendly states or in support of things in the US interests, but not otherwise.

To bring this back to the original point of press bias, it is noticable that the killing of an Israeli politician is reported in the Western media as an assassination, but the killing of Palestinian leaders is reported as being "in a strike by Israeli forces."

Pete M


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM

hey the Arabs dont own the oil. THeyre just closer to it. We could dig sideways. (an old joke) Some good points there LittleHawk, and Im as distrustful of multinational corporations who dont answer to any govt as the next person but I think there can be checks and balances to globalism. Take a look at the capitalist system a 150 years ago and how much its changed (sure theres still a long way to go) but we went from child labour in the mines, sweatshop fires that resulted in safer workplace standards, massive changes in labour standards. THere is more consumer awareness, environmental awareness - companies know they just cant do whatever they want. Look at the consumer reaction (in Europe) to GMOs, forcing large suppliers such as MacDonalds and Mcains and others to buy non-GMO products. people do have power (especially with the internet) (there is a long way to go still, but I think that it can be done)

I think there ought to be more emphasis on reducing the 3rd world debt, Ive always thought even before the Soviet Union fell apart that the gap between the 1st and 3rd world is the greatest obstacle to long term world peace and stability.

Of the key changes in the second half of the 20th century aside from the end of communism, the second most important trend was the rise of the asian economies. Contrast that to what happened in Africa and the Middle East in the postcolonial years. 50 years ago, many of those countries had better standards of living and were more stable. WHy is that? (Im not saying we should go back to colonialism)

I would say, some of this is due to an emphasis on education in Asia, possibly closer family ties. I wouldnt blame the decline on the west. Im sure that some companies benefit from the cheap labour, or cash crops some of these countries provide but ultimately they would benefit from a richer population that could buy their products. Again, not necessarily, rampant consumerism either. But its not up to the west to go around creating democracies because that would be meddling in internal affairs and people who havent known democracy dont necessarily know what theyre missing.

perhaps in some ways globalism was given bigger blow on sept 11 than any of the wto protests so far.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:23 PM

>>>To bring this back to the original point of press bias, it is noticable that the killing of an Israeli politician is reported in the Western media as an assassination, but the killing of Palestinian leaders is reported as being "in a strike by Israeli forces." <<<

Point taken, but in mitigation the distinction is semantically justified. Assassination is the murder of a socially prominent person. Military forces acting with state authority are not triable for murder. Actors without the color of sovereign authority can be tried for murder. Of course you'd need a Palistinian state to remove the imbalance, but then if journalists are supposed to use words according to their meaning and not play them to advance a political bias (i.e. what they consider "fair"), the different wording is linguistically appropriate.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:30 PM

And that, I think, is one of the reasons we have terrorism. If we take away all legitimate means for a people to seek justice, what alternative do they have?

I do not suggest that this is Bin Ladin's reason for doing what he does, but I do think that it is one reason for some of the terrorism in the world.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:55 PM

Oh, gosh Carol, do you realize how perilously close you're bringing us to the imponderable "What is justice?" Which leads me to this: I recently read, (not interested at the time), that the PLA's recent rejection concerned an offer of all of the Gaza Strip, 95% of the West Bank, something with regard to Jerusalem but specifically to include the Dome of the Rock, and, as I understood it, full sovereignty. (I'm sorry to list these without an accurate cite.) Someone else surely knows the accurate specifics and what went wrong. But that sounds like something approaching access to justice. Clinton got that offer on the table, right? He's from the U.S.

Let me know, as I'm sure you will, what I missed.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:03 PM

PLA?? Just say Arafat. This Israel stuff. . . .


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:09 PM

You getting enough sleep, Dan? You sound stressed out.

Did you read anything in that article about the Palestinians' reasons for not accepting that offer (as stated by the Palestinians)? I would like to know more about that.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:12 PM

Ha! Probably not. No, I didn't read what went wrong; I'd like to know.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:23 PM

Because it seems to me, with limited understanding of the issues, that that offer didn't really call for a counteroffer of 6,000 dead Americans. I tend towards believing those who have said that Palestine is a red herring.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:36 PM

Well, it's near the Red Sea, but....naw...

You gotta remember that there is not a really huge amount of good will on either side of that issue, to put it mildly. Until that changes, I doubt that anyone can broker a deal that both sides will accept.

Still, there's no harm trying, and those who are wise will keep trying. Those who aren't will keep killing.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:47 PM

Dan, I hope you're not suggesting that I think what happened on 11 Sept. was justified in any way. I thought I tried to make it very clear in my 18-Oct-01 - 09:30 PM post that I was not.

I didn't kill the Lindburgh baby either.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:49 PM

Correction: I thought I tried to make it very clear in my 18-Oct-01 - 09:30 PM post that I do not.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: heric
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:00 PM

No, certainly not suggesting anything like that and in fact I don't have a clue where that's coming from. (When I said I'm sure "you'll" let me know, that was actually a generic you to the great mudcat collective knowledge base.)

In fact, you're up three hours later than I, aren't you?

I am, in fact, exhausted. And this is what came out of it just now; I kind of like it:

Now I lay me down to sleep
The day is done and I did keep
my children safe another day
my parents honored in this way

This day is gone and gone for good
I spent it wholly as I should
A perfect past and perfect future
Meet now in the children I nurture

A world awaits them this is certain
Joys and griefs behind a curtain
Perfect future perfect past
Windward, leeward, to my mast

Lift the clouds that shroud the way
Some brief glimpse so they don't stray
Too distant from the perfect path
Pulled by future's slipstream fast

Perfect balance, by design
I have learned, for I own Time
Spend it wisely as I choose
A perfect path on this long cruise

Children now delivered through
There's no more that I can do
My Time is spent, I have no need
for balance, timing, craft or speed

My Time is spent, my deed is done
My day is gone, my honor won
The ship sails on and I shall find
A perfect rest, for all God's time.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:04 PM

Well, that's pretty nice...

- LH


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:18 PM

That's really nice. Are you on the west coast? If so, I guess it's later here than where you are. Is it three hours?

I hope you get some rest. I know it's not always easy these days. I have a kid, too, and I worry about what sort of world I've brought him into. Maybe your poem will help me feel more relaxed about that.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: CaptainLewis
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:03 AM

Man! What a thread! Of course we have tossed back and forth the "globals" and national/religious groups and such, but it all boils down in the end to basic human nature. Some folks just have to hate others because for them its easier than loving everyone. And some have to love everyone because its easier than hating anyone.

The US will always be the target of hatred by anyone who is not as rich or powerful as this. It doesn't really matter that we educations thousands of the world's leaders, or that most of the world depends on the US economy. When you're as large, powerful and "successful" as the US, you can't help but make mistakes around the world decision-wise.

Because as big as we are, we're still human - flawed, opinionated, and mistaken at times, like a clumsy giant. Nice to have around when a mountain needs to be moved or a flooding river dammed. But I sure don't want him living next door! (For my Canadian friends ;-))

You really can't have justice as an abstract - because you would have to dismantle the whole US system - which would create disasters around the globe financially, even as you sought to equalize everything. Like it or not, we are stuck with gradually educating, enlightening and raising the standards around the globe at this aweful snail's pace. Hindered by the hatred, the greed and the misunderstanding that has continuously plagued humankind for it tenure on this whirling clod. Every high point in civilization considered itself to be the very pinnacle of development - as close to the sky as you get - and fallen.

Countless towers of Babel. We learn so very, very slowly and sometimes not at all. But there is no value that can match the individual acts of human charity that are our defense against the harshness of our shortcomings and failures.

Ahhh, my Guiness is finally warm enough to drink properly!

CLB


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:18 AM

Nicely penned, I,Hurricane. Thanks for sharing.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 11:27 AM

Petr, America still prospers on the back of slavery and child labour. Just look at the country of origin on anything you buy in the shops, and ask yourself why it couldn't have been made in the USA.

KimC, you ask: "Is it somehow wrong for us to try to aid the poor and destitute within our own borders..." I would have thought America's record on that front was piss poor, which is why you have to fence off the haves from the have-nots (by having a higher proportion of your population in jail than any country on earth, bar none).

But back to press manipulation. I have just heard that the US Defence department is commandeering all photographic images from the civillian-owned Ikonos satellite. But surely such images would have confirmed the surgical precision of the American war machine?


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 11:29 AM

Sorry Big Mick, I meant to say those were good points in response to my earlier post.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: heric
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:18 PM

Here's a summary of the summer, 2000 negotiations:

Despite the wide gap between the two parties in the working-level talks held during the spring of 2000, U.S. President Bill Clinton invited Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak and PLO Chairman Yassir Arafat to a summit at Camp David in July, hoping to break the deadlock. However, the Camp David Summit failed to produce a final peace agreement.

At Camp David, Prime Minister Barak reportedly agreed to cede to Palestinian control some 90 to 95 percent of the West Bank. Israel proposed annexing the remainder, including areas with the largest concentration of Jewish settlements and areas that Israel deemed vital to its security. Although Israel did not accept responsibility for the creation of the Palestinian refugee problem, it reportedly agreed to the return to Israel of small numbers of Palestinian refugees with family members. Israel reportedly proposed setting up an international fund to compensate most Palestinian refugees, who would be permanently settled in their host countries, Palestine, or in other countries.

Although the degree to which Palestinian negotiators agreed with these proposals remained unclear, the final status of Arab East Jerusalem, which Israel captured from Jordan during the 1967 war, was billed as the deal-breaker at Camp David. While President Arafat insisted on Palestinian sovereignty over East Jerusalem, Prime Minister Barak reportedly offered the Palestinians only limited control over Arab neighborhoods in the eastern part of the city.

Amidst daily violence in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, President Clinton in December made a last-ditch effort to reach a peace agreement during his presidency, calling on Palestinians to relinquish the right of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes in Israel in exchange for Palestinian sovereignty over most Arab neighborhoods of East Jerusalem, and control over the Haram Al Sharif/Temple Mount. Prime Minister Barak accepted the broad outlines of President Clinton's proposal, but President Arafat did not.

Although many Western commentators characterized the Clinton deal as the best that Palestinians could ever hope for, most Palestinians saw the proposal in a quite different light. Witnessing the return of refugees and the restitution of property as the centerpiece of the West's policy in Kosovo and Bosnia, Palestinian refugees wondered why these principles did not apply to them. For their part, Israelis argued that allowing Palestinian refugees to return would amount to "national suicide," saying that it would irrevocably alter the Jewish character of Israel.

There were other Palestinian objections. Although the Clinton peace deal promised as much as 95 percent of the West Bank and all of the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians, the deal nevertheless would have divided the West Bank into two separate cantons to make way for Israeli bypass roads to Jewish settlements and the Jordan Valley, where Israel would have maintained a substantial military presence for at least several years. Parts of Arab East Jerusalem also would have remained islands separated from the rest of Palestine by what would become Israeli territory. Even the actual percentage of West Bank land that would become part of Palestine was in dispute because of questions regarding the methodology used to calculate what territory actually constituted the West Bank.

With daily violent exchanges continuing and what appeared to be an irreconcilable impasse at the negotiating table, both sides began to write the obituary for the peace process begun seven years earlier in Oslo.

http://www.refugees.org/world/countryrpt/mideast/gazastrip_wbank.htm


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:58 PM

Fionn, does your country not import & export consumer goods?


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM

Excellent question, KimC (with no cookie)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:48 PM

Well, we tend to go astray when narrowing present social problems down and pinning them on just one country. The USA gets more attention and blame because it's presently the most powerful player, but all countries have complicity in maintaining the present inequitable systems...because it's profitable for those in power to do so.

If money were abolished, it would go a long way toward solving the problem. This would presuppose a very different form of social organization, of course, so I think rather than exhausting myself trying to explain how it could be done, I'll go have a cup of tea instead, and admire the weather out there... :-)

- LH


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:50 PM

You gonna pay good money for that cup of tea, L.H.? Or do you produce your own? :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Eric Wolf
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM

Every "modern" nation is culpable in terms of the economic exploitation that so many want to pin exclusively on the U.S. We are actually somewhat of a latecomer in terms of capitalist developments. Unfortunately, as someone pointed out, the U.S. is the most visible player. Thus, many people would rather fixate on the U.S. instead of acknowledging their own nation's external activities or internal problems. Capitalism may not be perfect but compared to many attempted alternatives (Russia, North Korea, Nazi Germany), it is one of the better games in town.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 02:20 PM

"It's high time, in fact perilously late, that the U.S. and the rest of the western world call a conference to explore reasons and solutions for the present-day terroristic environment".

Sometimes though, there should *be* no "negotiation". I do not negotiate with my 9 year old daughter when she throws a tantrum, and neither do I feel that that any country should negotiate with terrorists.

There simply is no excuse for killing innocents, no matter who is doing the killing.

I have to agree with another sentiment in this thread...

For living on the backs of others in the world, we surely dole out a hell of a lot of cash.

We are not the great evil we are painted to be, nor are we saints. We're human. But this culture and its justice system is still a hell of a lot better than some of the cultures which are now casting stones our way.

When Islamic fundamentalists treat their women as something other than chattel, I may be willing to listen to their complaints about the US and all the evil we do.

They are still oppressing their *own* people, not just killing ours for oppressing their people. I find this hypocritical in the extreme, and as a woman, am insensed that the world is not more outraged at the treatment women suffer under many Islamic regimes.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 02:40 PM

I don't know who you are, Guest, but I have to agree with you. I am appalled by the brutal and systematic oppression of women in Afghanistan (as well as some other countries). If the target of the Taliban's extreme oppression was a racial group rather than a gender, I think the world would recognize it as an abomination of the highest order, akin to slavery. Somehow, because the victims of this are women, and because it's based in their distorted conception of "religion," it is tolerated as a cultural difference, rather than being recognized for the evil that it is.

Little Hawk, I appreciate the sentiments you are expressing in this and other threads. But it all sounds pretty unrealistically utopian to me. It's fine to envision a world where nobody is poor or hungry, nobody lives in fear, and we all beat our swords into plowshares and study war no more. If I could snap my fingers and make it so, I would. But when you offer your "vision" as an alternative to the actions that the US government is currently taking (in concert with other governments), it's realistic to ask you for a more specific plan. Do you have one?


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:08 PM

Confused? Having difficulty telling the good guys from the bad guys? Use this handy guide to tell the differences between Terrorists and the U.S. Government:

TERRORISTS: Supposed leader is the spoiled son of a powerful politician,from extremely wealthy oil family.
US GOVERNMENT: Supposed leader is the spoiled son of a powerful politician, from extremely wealthy oil family.

TERRORISTS: Leader has declared a holy war ('Jihad') against his 'enemies'; believes any nation not with him is against him; believes god is on his side, and that any means are justified.
US GOVERNMENT: Leader has declared a holy war ('Crusade') against his 'enemies'; believes any nation not with him is against him; believes god is on his side, and that any means are justified.

TERRORISTS: Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers.
US GOVERNMENT: Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers.

TERRORISTS: Leadership was not elected by a majority of the people in a free and fair democratic election.
US GOVERNMENT: Leadership was not elected by a majority of the people in a free and fair democratic election.

TERRORISTS: Kills thousands of innocent civilians, some of them children,in cold blooded bombings.
US GOVERNMENT: Kills (tens of) thousands of innocent civilians, some of them children, in cold blooded bombings.

TERRORISTS: Operates through clandestine organization (al Qaeda) with agents in many countries; uses bombing, assassination, other terrorist tactics.
US GOVERNMENT: Operates through clandestine organization (CIA) with agents in many countries; uses bombing, assassination,other terrorist tactics.

TERRORISTS: Using war as pretext to clamp down on dissent and undermine civil liberties.
US GOVERNMENT: Using war as pretext to clamp down on dissent and undermine civil liberties.

STOP THE WAR!


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:15 PM

THANK YOU, SOPHOCLEESE!!!


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,JeffK627
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:24 PM

Well, I'd love to write something profound and wise, but only 2 things come to mind.

First, Osama bin Laden and his followers are attempting to kill "every American they can." Being an American, I will endorse almost any means - short of indiscriminate killing of Afghani civilians and Muslims in general - to prevent that.

Second, and this may seem immature but it is heartfelt: Fionn, go screw yourself.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 03:32 PM

Whistle Stop - Granted, my ideas are utopian in today's climate. They may not be in a century or less, depending on which way humanity turns in the next few decades.

As for specific plans...ah...one would have to look at about a hundred or a thousand possible scenarios for that. Give me a little time, and I'll think about it.

I am essentially a philosopher, not a politician, and I don't envy politicians in the middle of this worldwide confusion we've got.

I think Sophocleese made some good points up there.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 04:27 PM

I goofed, sorry, I meant to begin my post by stating that I had received the handy-dandy guide in my e-mail, but I got so busy removing all the forwarding marks I forgot to write that important sentence. I didn't write the list, I'm passing it on as a public service.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:04 PM

Some public service.

It beats the heck out of me how so many folks could fault the U.S. government and take their anger out on it, rather than on the people who killed over 5,000 of their fellow citizens.

Would you ladies REAlly be happy walking around in clothing that covered you from head to foot? But you might not even be allowed to do that. If Bin Laden means what he says, and there is no opposition to him, you are going to be killed anyway.

It's real puzzlement.

DougR


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,bflat
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:26 PM

I am having a hard time believing the comparison of Terrorist to the U.S.Government. That is absurd. The U.S. is pluralistic, can that be said of the terrorists? What separates us is the rule of law in an open society. Where does anything like that exist in the Arab world?

Ellen


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Deda
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 05:52 PM

I think that some people simply want to attack the US gov't no matter what it does, completely regardless, and an easy way to do that is to say that there is no difference at all between the US gov't and the worst, most despised group in the world. The moniker-du-jour for that is "terrorist", so they'll call the US gov't "just like terrorists". It isn't sophisticated thought, but it tries to play one on TV. Without success, imho.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:01 PM

SORRY! This was my post. I was at work, and forgot to type in the tag line...my apologies.

"It's high time, in fact perilously late, that the U.S. and the rest of the western world call a conference to explore reasons and solutions for the present-day terroristic environment".

Sometimes though, there should *be* no "negotiation". I do not negotiate with my 9 year old daughter when she throws a tantrum, and neither do I feel that that any country should negotiate with terrorists.

There simply is no excuse for killing innocents, no matter who is doing the killing.

I have to agree with another sentiment in this thread...

For living on the backs of others in the world, we surely dole out a hell of a lot of cash.

We are not the great evil we are painted to be, nor are we saints. We're human. But this culture and its justice system is still a hell of a lot better than some of the cultures which are now casting stones our way.

When Islamic fundamentalists treat their women as something other than chattel, I may be willing to listen to their complaints about the US and all the evil we do.

They are still oppressing their *own* people, not just killing ours for oppressing their people. I find this hypocritical in the extreme, and as a woman, am insensed that the world is not more outraged at the treatment women suffer under many Islamic regimes.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:05 PM

Doug R, they're not bombing Afghanistan because of the way the Taliban treats women so don't use that silly argument. The biggest threat to our freedom right now are the measures brought about through our governments for security.

Yes I agree that linking the US government up with terrorists is unfair, the US through the CIA has probably killed far more people. They're feeling real secure at the moment.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:09 PM

Sophocles penned: TERRORISTS: Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers. US GOVERNMENT: Supported by extreme fundamentalist religious leaders who preach hatred, intolerance, subjugation of women, and persecution of non-believers.

I must politely disagree, Sophoclese. I'll take the US version of "subjugation" over the terror that women live under in Afghanistan and other Islamic nations any day of the week.

I must also politely disagree with most of the rest of it as well. It is an issue of degree. While the US may have areas where these comparisons can be roughly drawn on paper, the reality is like comparing Niagra Falls with a leaky faucet. Both are "running water".


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Justa Picker
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:18 PM

If someone has cancer, do you first look at the reasons why it was caused, or do you treat/eradicate it?

If we think of terrorists as "cancer" the first order of business is to do our best to eradicate it immediately, and then, we can look at the causes and try to determine the best course of actions to keep it from recurring.

You can't sit down and try to reason or have a rational discussion with people in a mindset hellbent on killing themselves and as many Americans and Westerners as they can take with them, nor can you "petition the Lord with prayer" to make it all go away.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:33 PM

Justapicker, in order to treat the cancer you need to know what kind it is. And you don't use outdated medicines or drugs known to not work.

All I 'petition the Lord with prayer' for is wisdom and courage, clarity, humility and compassion.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 06:35 PM

Why use cancer as an example? Why not try High Cholesterol? The terrorists are High Cholesterol, we must treat this with careful dieting and monitor the situation regularly.

You could try clicking here for diet advice.

Of course, High Cholesterol doesn't sound as dramatic as Cancer does it?


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Justa Picker
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 07:03 PM

I wasn't trying to be dramatic...but I've broken my own self imposed behavioral code here, by allowing myself to get drawn into political and non-music related discussions. There is as much chance getting the left wingers here to understand a hawkish point of view in dealing with the terrorists, as getting the Taliban to understand that the attacks on Afghanistan are not an attack on Islam.

I will now return to renduring assistance on those musical threads that I can contribute something useful.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 07:16 PM

Sophocleese: The problem with your analogy is that there is "good cholesterol" as well as "bad cholesterol", and it is recommended that we ingest the good cholesterol for the benefit of our bodies. Cancer, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have any redeeming qualities, and only exists to destroy; it is recommended that we do all we can to eliminate it from our bodies by whatever means necessary before it kills us. Cut it out with a knife, bombard it with radiation, flood it with chemicals – whatever it takes to get rid of it – and be vigilant and ready to smite it should it appear again.

I don't think there's any such thing as a "good terrorist". Terrorism is indeed a societal cancer, and not anything which has any potential benefit to society, at any level of activity.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 08:51 PM

LOL Sophocleese!

Amazing to see how suddenly some of you guys have got yourselves worked up about the nature of the Taliban. Kat, I and others have been banging on about it for years, ina fair amount of detail. Never crossed my mind that bombing their hospitals was the answer.

While you're in the mood, why not take a look at how that staunch friend Saudi Arabia is governed. Or read up on the Kuwaiti regime that Daddy Bush was so quick to rescue. Or pause to think what it must be like to be a Palestinian living on the West Bank, or even in Israel. (That was a very measured resume, I.hurricane.)

I just hope Whistle Stop isn't putting too much faith in the fact that America is Not Alone, because pretty soon it will be (apart from continued UK support, I suppose). The irony is that the monstrous Taliban is actually starting to attract sympathy. As someone said on telly yesterday, if Mike Tyson gets in the ring to fight a child, it's obvious who the crowd's going to support. America bombing Afghanistan is a bit like that.

Kim (and DougR), the UK - if that's what you mean by "my" country - imports far more consumer goods than it exports, exactly like the USA, but obviously on a much smaller scale.

As I said earlier, its overseas aid budget is three to four times greater than the USA's, pro rata, but still pitiful compared with the Scandinavian countries; Japan, Germany, etc. Just like the USA, the UK requires that much of the aid it gives comes back into the country in return for British goods, especially arms. All this notwithstanding that the UK is governed by a party that came to office promising "ethical foreign affairs policies."

Within the UK the gap between rich and poor is much less than in the USA, but governments from Thatcher onwards, including the present one, have been addressing that. So rest assured, the gap is widening fast.


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 09:42 PM

I don't think ANYONE here likes the Taliban one bit, or sympathizes with their approach toward running a society. I sure don't. Never did.

On the other hand, to make further impassioned statements about how awful and heinous it is for those terrorists to blow up buildings full of civilians would serve the same purpose as saying "Water is wet!!! DAMN WET!"

Yeah, okay. We all know that. It's totally obvious. Now what?

It is the "now what" part that we are debating about here...as in "what would be the best response to this situation?". Various of us differ on that. To so differ does not in any way indicate approval for acts of terrorism or empathy with those acts.

To suggest that past western policies have helped incubate terrorism does not in any way indicate approval of terrorism.

The only thing that bugs people in a debate like this is: when someone else tends to beat a different emotional drum than they do. They get mightily offended by that, and tend to assume that the other person believes all kinds of wrongful stuff...which may not, in fact be the case. Well, that's the way it goes...we don't all focus on precisely the same angle all the time, do we?

But we (on Mudcat) do all agree that the Taliban are a horrifically awful regime.

What we do not necessarily agree upon is that high-tech war may not be the most appropriate and effective means of resolving longstanding international problems.

- LH

Doug - I pay for the tea. :-) Like I do for other stuff, cos I have no other choice at present (well, I could steal it, I guess, but I don't regard that as a realistic choice...). If some goddamn corporation had a way of cornering the market on air and sunlight, I would have to pay for those too, but they haven't quite managed that yet. Thank God. I do pretty well have to buy bottled water now, cos most tap water is getting not too clean, so that's one more thing that used to be free, and now is not, cos our uncontrolled expansionism has polluted most of the fresh water.

I envision, however, a situation where the tea would not have to be paid for, by me or anyone else, but would simply be there for all to drink. For a reference to that notion, view reruns of "Star Trek Next Generation" to see how it could be done (and I don't mean with replicators), what the motivation to accomplish work would be in such a society, and why money is not a necessary part of the equation in such a society.

Utopian? You betcha! The hard won social rights and freedoms we in North America take for granted most of the time now were considered Utopian by most people only a rather short time ago, historically speaking.

It is today's utopian who envisions tomorrow's greatest achievements, so I am proud to be seen as one.

- LH


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Subject: RE: Non-Music -What the world has to say
From: GUEST,Captain America
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:47 AM

The U.S. government/Terrorist comparison (and variations of it) frequently pops up on bulk emailings. It is then almost immediately refuted on a point-by-point basis by anyone with a well-informed perspective. I am not going to waste my time doing it here, since, from an intellectual perspective, it is about as frustratng as trying to reason with a child about monsters under their bed. Equally naive is the ravings about loss of civil liberties. Current actions to maintain domestic security pale in comparison to what was enacted during periods like the Civil War (when Lincoln assumed almost dictatorial powers) and World War Two when all forms of communication were strongly censored. The mindless repetition of quasi-factoids by both the far left and far right in this crisis is an insult to rational thinking.


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