Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?

Subject: Fiddler that played Money Musk
From: GUEST,Missouri Belle
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:31 PM

Roy Wooliver used to play for a square dance I went to with my late husband.He played a tune called " Money Musk." Anyone know him? Thanks, Old Molly Hare

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: 53
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 09:35 PM

never heard of him.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,Bardford
Date: 16 Oct 01 - 11:09 PM

Hi, Missourri belle/Old Molly Hare,
I did a quick google search and found the following:

Click here for a page that has a little bit of information on Roy Wooliver. You'll have to scroll down to see a picture of him.

Also, here's Money Musk, with music and dance insstructions.
Cheers, Bardford

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: 53
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:26 PM

he must be pretty old.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,Missouri Belle
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:33 AM

Thank you, Bardford. I have such great memories of those dances. Molly

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: Bardford
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:33 AM

My pleasure Molly. Check back here over the next few days- I've sent a query to the fiddle list, and will post any responses here.
Cheers, Bardford

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM

Hi,

I don't know Roy Wooliver, but I've heard a lot about him, especially from John Hartford and Howe Teague, a fiddler who lives in Salem, MO. This is a summary of what they've told me.

Roy Wooliver was a fiddler and guitar player from around Dent County, MO. Apparently the Woolivers were a musical bunch. His playing had a significant influence on fiddlers like Howe Teague (Salem, MO), Gene Goforth, Clifford Hawthorne, and John Hartford. From all accounts I've heard, he was kind of a drifter who worked odd jobs, never owned a fiddle, and engaged in occasional petty theft. Legend has it he was put in prison twice for stealing the same watch. He made his way to St. Louis in the 1940s, where at one point he worked with Cousin Emmy and Her Kinfolk on KMOX radio. He never made any commercial recordings, but Howe Teague has a couple of discs cut at a radio stations in Rolla and Salem, MO of he and Wooliver playing together. Teague on fiddle and Wooliver on guitar, I believe. I haven't heard them. I'm not sure when he was born, but I'd guess it would have been around the turn of the last century. I believe he died in the early 1960s.

Any light you can shine on Wooliver would be of help to me as I'm particularly interested in him and his music. When and where were these dances you described? Do you remember any of the other musicians who played? Feel free to contact me at the address below.

Best,

Jim Nelson

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,oj
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:35 PM

you can hear john hartford play a version of money musk and talk about roy w. on his current album called hamilton ironworks. its a tribute to the fiddlers that influenced him in his youth including mr. wooliver.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 04:38 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 08:44 PM

.... I am a big fan of this style of fiddling....I love the Ozark fiddling style. I am also a fan of Henry the Fiddler.

On Hamilton Ironworks, John says Roy might pick your pocket if you didn't watch him...what does "money musk" mean?...harpgirl

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,Bardford
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:33 PM

I posted a query to the fiddle-List and received information from Jim Nelson, who kindly posted above, and the following from Dr. Howard Marshall:

Roy Wooliver (or Woliver) has been dead for perhaps 30 years. Wooliver was somewhat of a transient, in and out of trouble with John Law, but generally he was "from" the area just southwest of St.Louis in the northeastern apron of the Ozarks. Gene Goforth tells some good stories about Wooliver's antics and scrapes with the law. All who knew Wooliver remarked on his amazing fiddling, in both style and repertory.

Wooliver occasionally played over various live AM radio shows in the St.Louis area, including Cousin Emmy's show over KMOX.

Hartford met Wooliver in the late 1950s and did a lot of home recordings of jam sessions with Wooliver with Clifford Hawthorne, and others. Hartford's version of Roy's "Money Musk" (which is a good deal different from the usual take on this great tune) is on Hartford's new CD called "Hamilton Ironworks" and maybe even on Gene Goforth's Rounder CD a couple years ago called "Eminence Breakdown."

Wooliver was the main fiddling mentor to the great Gene Goforth of High Ridge, MO.

Wooliver was quite a character and a great fiddler who liked tough hornpipes in the flat keys as well as the standard things you might hear other places. His fiddling style fit in with the general central Missouri style, and was not an Ozarks style.

Cheers, Howard Marshall

Bardford again - hope this helps, Molly.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: harpgirl
Date: 21 Feb 02 - 07:34 AM

Was Wooliver really Gene Goforth's fiddling mentor? What's the difference between the Ozarks style and the general Missouri style? Any more info on the Salem/Dent county musicians available?

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 12:46 PM

attach to monymusk thread

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 05:41 PM

Here is some history about these fiddlers:

Gene Goforth article

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 05:57 PM

Good article here

Missouri Old-Time Fiddling Traditions
By Charlie "Possum" Walden
I started playing fiddle while a young teen in about 1974 or so. I feel fortunate that I was able to experience the tailend of an era of fiddle playing and old-time dancing which, as of this writing, is fading fast. Many of the great players I knew and learned from as a young man have either passed on or become too feeble to play. While radio and then television took their toll on traditional self-generated entertainment like fiddling and square dancing, I am sorry to say that the now ubiquitous satellite dish offering hundreds of channels may deal the final blow to community life in rural Missouri (and the rest of rural America, for that matter). Likewise, the emphasis of younger players on learning rote renditions of contest tunes from books, CDs and fiddle camps could result in the ultimate decimation of Missouri's once richly diverse fiddle tradition. I want to commend those fiddlers, callers and dancers in Missouri who, with little recognition, are doing their part to preserve the musical heritage of Missouri. This piece is dedicated to them.

Missouri's First Fiddlers

With the exception of some Spaniards who came to gawk at the Mississippi River, the first Europeans in what is now Missouri were French. Unlike the Spanish who came up the Mississippi, the French expedition led by Marquette and Joliet came down to the Missouri area out of Canada. Following other explorations, the French decided to colonize the vast region called Louisiana, of which Missouri was a part. The first permanent settlement in Missouri by many accounts was founded in 1735 as Ste. Genevieve, right on the Mississippi River and about eighty or so miles south of present day St. Louis.

French settlement extended into the interior of the state and is still evident in the abundance of French surnames in the Ozark counties of St. Francois, Dent, Crawford, and especially Washington. They must have been packing fiddles with them because until very recently there was an abundance of old-time fiddlers and dance callers who carried on a very old French tradition that had not mingled significantly with the larger Scotch-Irish fiddling tradition in Missouri. I was talking by phone recently with Ray Thebeau, an old-time square dance caller who lives in Washington County, and he told me his family was in the area as early as 1720.

Another caller from the same county, Betsy Boyer, could call in French. Fiddlers such as Joe Politte, Charlie Pasha, Ethel Goff and Roy Boyer played tunes that could not be heard in any other region of the state. And although I can't articulate it in this article, the performance of these tunes and other more commonly heard pieces had a distinctively different rhythmic accent -- reminiscent of French Canadian playing -- from the music of the rest of Missouri's fiddlers. Geoff Seitz, a fiddler of my generation from St. Louis, can play a few of these pieces. I've recorded a couple myself. Otherwise, this tradition which had survived from the 1700's into the mid-20th century is largely lost. If you want to hear some of this traditional French-Ozarks music, the Missouri State Old Time Fiddlers Association (MSOTFA) still has a handful of the double LP sets I'm Old But I'm Awfully Tough produced in the mid-1970s which contain excellent performances by Politte and Pasha.

Styles of Missouri Fiddling

A lot of hay has been made about styles of fiddling in Missouri. I once got a call at 6:00 AM from a reporter friend of mine on deadline for the local paper to do a story on an upcoming fiddlers contest. In a state of semi-consciousness I told him there were twelve styles of Missouri fiddling. Boy, did I live to regret that. I'm going to play it relatively safe and say there are three "styles."

Before continuing, some general comments about Missouri fiddling are in order. Missouri fiddlers bow a lot when they play. There is a lot of alternate bowing or saw stroke employed, which makes the notes sound separated and makes the music sound lively and energetic. Phrasing is accomplished by stopping the bow or by slurring two notes and then forging ahead with separate bows. This bowing method also makes the rhythmic accent of Missouri fiddlers sound very much "on-the-beat" or square. There is not much of the backbeat pulse one hears when listening to Appalachian music or the swing felt in Texas-style fiddling. Instead, Missouri fiddlers tend to play a little ahead of the beat, creating the elusive and yet essential quality of "drive."

This tendency to play ahead of the beat can lead an uninitiated accompanist to think the fiddler is trying to speed up and unintentionally push the beat. A good tempo for a Missouri hoedown, by the way, is about 112-120 beats per minute. The bowing description above is a gross undersimplification. I've intentionally avoided analyzing my own or other people's bowing for fear of messing up my playing. In all cases you should "go for the sound."

Another effect of separate bowing is that Missouri fiddlers want to hear every note come out clearly and in tune. There is little use of shuffle bowing which can obscure the melody. Good left hand technique is highly prized. On hoedowns, Missouri fiddlers play mostly in first position, almost never in second, and frequently in third, especially on tunes in the key of A. When faced with playing a D, A, or E string, especially at the beginning or end of a phrase, most Missouri fiddlers will play a unison note on the string below to avoid the thin sound of a held open string. Using the case of the A string, often the bow is allowed to play first the noted A on the D string and then the open A, giving the illusion of two separate notes being played. It's a neat effect.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:05 PM

If this is the same Roy Wooliver in our family...his direct relatives are from Salem, MO. Roy Wooliver's mother was Melvina Wooliver and his Father was Sanders Wooliver of Salem, MO. Yes, a Wooliver married a Wooliver & it has been said Roy was a 'little off' but could play a great fiddle. The last place I knew of Roy to be living was in/around Bixby, MO.
    Ken Fiebelman is the local county historian/geneologist...and he can also confirm who's who of the Wooliver clan in Missouri in/around Dent County. My own Grandfather was a Wooliver (Ora). There are tons of Woolivers around since the Wooliver clan appeared quite prolific and must of taken it to heart for procreating the earth...my Great-Grandfather, Robert Wooliver sired 24 children (but by three different wives..married to them each at separate times during his life span.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: nickp
Date: 09 Mar 09 - 05:20 PM

Yes, the Hartford/Goforth/Wooliver tunes are excellent and should be compulsory (compulsive!) listening to anyone with an interest in old time fiddling.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,City Cousin of Roy
Date: 28 Oct 09 - 10:49 PM

Hello, Just this past weekend of October 25th (2009). I had the great pleasure of seeing the Fall Foliage in the Ozarks. My travels took me through Caledonia, Mo and to Bixby, MO (and eventually to the family cemetery at Stone Hill and on to Salem). In Bixby, I met a man names 'Joe' Miner. His father Plumas Miner was a forerunner of settling the Buick area of Iron County near Bixby. Joe told me, Roy Wooliver lived his last years with his family (particularly his mother, father, and sister) before he past away in 1964. Joe took my mother (who is a direct line descendent of the Wooliver Clan - Daniel Wooliver one of the first settlers to Dent County. And, her father was Robert Wooliver who also was a known fiddler in the Dent County area for many a square dance and calling)and me to the Barton Cemetery near Buick, MO. Roy was buried there by his friends and his marker was erected as well by friends. Joe told me Roy would play his fiddle for just about anyone who would listen, but if he got mad he would just quit. It is sad if we can't find any recordings of his own music still around somewhere. I only wish our own family would have acknowledged his greatnest as a fiddle player rather than the sad family history that surronds his immediate family. At the time I was only just a kid myself and now have come to know of him and now it is too late except to try to keep his memory alive and well of his music.   THANK YOU to all who still recall his music and ability to please folks with his great fiddle playing. God Bless,

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 08:26 AM

Thank you for the post, city cousin. I intend to visit Roy's gravesite on my next trip to the area which unfortunately, might not be in the immediate future. I do appreciate your information and would be thrilled to find some recordings of Roy somewhere. Someday I hope to do an ethnography of Roy and perhaps we can talk at some point about your family history.
thanks so much for posting

harpgirl

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 09:34 AM

Well, I don't have much to add except that I certainly love this sort of thread, plus it reminds me of friends Jim Nelson and harpgirl! (Not that I've ever forgotten them)

I have some VHS video SOMEWHERE of Howe Teague with friends at Silver Dollar City. Finding it probably is next to impossible at this late date. I also had one of his albums which I gave away at about the same time. I may have kept a cassette copy, but that would also be filed away in the who knows where it is bin.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:41 AM

Hi Dale. How are Mountain View and the Folk Center these days? Did you really have a recording with Roy Wooliver on it? I wonder if I might actually have something in my collection. I am going to look tonight. I should start my ethnography now I think and I wonder if you have anything you can make available to me?

I used to sneak into Silver Dollar City with Larry Doyle and play for the tourists just for the heck of it. I bet SDC might be a source of infor for research.
I'm going to sort and use the thread information to do some research before I go back to the Ozarks.
Great to hear from you Dale. Reminds me of what Mudcat is really for.
harpy

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,DWR
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 05:19 PM

Sorry, no. I have some of Howe Teague. Checking the logs that I have turns up nothing. You should ask Arkie. His depth of knowledge runs a whole lot deeper than mine.

Going back to Jim Nelson's post of 19 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM, you might consider talking to him. His email is listed in the post, and I'll give you Arkie's if you write me at dale8r AT hotmail DOT com. If you've got my newer one, then you can use that. Don't use the artelco one, that gets checked maybe once a month.

At SDC, you might get some help from Danny Eakin or some of the other Homestead Pickers. http://www.homesteadpickers.com/ http://www.dannyeakin.com/ It's possible that they'll know someone a little closer to the subject.

Dale

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 29 Oct 09 - 11:07 PM

city cousin of roy....I have located The Barton Cemetery in Dent County south of Buick in Boss, Missouri. The social security death index has Roy deceased in October of 1969. Would you share some more information if you have it of family connections, history, or stories you might have of any Woolivers in the Salem area?
Many thanks!!!!!!!
harpgirl

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,City Cousin of Roy
Date: 01 Nov 09 - 07:26 PM

Dear HarpGirl, I will talk with my one cousin and get back to you soon of life about Roy as soon as I can....THANKS again.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,CIty Cousin of Roy
Date: 05 Jun 10 - 03:02 AM

Hello to all,
    Roy Wooliver parents were Melvina Wooliver and Sanders Wooliver. Yes, Melvina's maided name is Wooliver as well.   Roy was not quite right as told by some but he played the fiddle like a msster for being self taught. One of his eyes was cock-eyed as well. He was a drifter I am told but not in serious enough trouble for him to actually be in prison. I am not positive of a previous posting of his being in prison and the warden taking him on pass for fiddling contests. This may be Ozark Folklore. However, Roy was in the Dent County jail at one time (don't know why) and his mother, Melvina attemtpted to get him out by trying to burn down the court house. This is what landed Melvina in the State Pen in Jefferson City and she died in prison.
      Robert Wooliver (son of Daniel & Ann Wooliver - one of the first pioneer families to the Salem (Dent County), MO area was also known as an excellent fiddler & caller as well. Robert Wooliver fathered 24 children (three wives not all at the same time). So, I guess when he wasn't at a square dance he was doing quite a bit of fiddling around with the wives to have all these kids (however the 2nd wive died in childbirth). After he passed away (and the other two wives), all the kids from the 3rd wife was farmed out to families and friends in the area to finish being raised up. Some did well and some did not.
       The early Wooliver family is know to be quite musically inclined. There are many Wooliver's in and around the Ozarks as yet and of course we are all related (unless having a surname of Smith or Jones to try to trace family history),

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,California Cousin of Roy Wooliver
Date: 11 Nov 10 - 01:32 AM

Roy Wooliver's full name was James C "Roy" Wooliver his mother and father were first cousins. Roy did spend a few years in state prison. He is on the 1920 census as an inmate, but that is under the name James. I did not know he was a fiddler also. I would like to thank you all for the information on this site. It was great to read something good about Roy.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,City Cousin of Roy
Date: 09 Apr 11 - 12:57 PM

Hello to All Again,   I have been trying to find out if there are ANY original recordings of Roys's fiddling available from somewhere. I learned he did come to Saint Louis at one time to be on a KMOX radio show called Cousin Emmy's. Does any of these old radio station recordings exist or were they all broadcasted live with no recordings at the time. It would be so great to hear Roy's playing rather than other's reditions (but good at the same time though). THANKS

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,another roy wooliver, my dad
Date: 26 Jun 12 - 03:32 PM

interesting thread ok, my dads name was roy wooliver, passed on in 1969 at age 49.fathered 10 children with wife Maxine. lived in springfield Mo.they must be related. no fiddlers but we always heard about the musicians in the family during the time of dads childhood.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,St. Louis City Cousin of Roy
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 04:34 AM

Hello, the Roy Wooliver known as an 'early Ozark fiddler' is from Dent County, Missouri. His Mother was Melvina Wooliver (Wooliver was her Maiden name as well)& Father was Sanders Wooliver. Roy was a drifter pretty much & family history has it that he did not marry not have children. He is buried in the in the Barton Cemetery between the small towns of Bixby & Buick, Missouri. His friends from that area put up the money for his burial/headstone. What is sad it that there is now more interest in his life and style of fiddling since he past away than when he was alive; several fiddlers have attributed his style of playing of influencing their music as well. Anyone have any recordings of actual tunes played by Roy himself????

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 25 Oct 12 - 10:23 PM

Thanks for this info, City cousin. I am slowly researching Roy's life but have not found recordings, yet. Any leads would be appreciated. Give the roses while I live....





best wishes ,
harpgirl

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: nickp
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 05:41 AM

A number of tracks from Roy can be found in this amazing archive particularly in the Milliner-Koken section

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: nickp
Date: 26 Oct 12 - 05:42 AM

Forgot to say you'll have to search for him amongst all the other great fiddlers but there's at least 8 examples.

Subject: RE: Roy Wooliver,Fiddler: Anyone Know Him?
From: GUEST,hg
Date: 27 Oct 12 - 01:02 AM

nickp thank you so much. I found them all. This is fantastic. Hamilton Ironworks and Money Musk are among my favorites. Maybe roy was the original cross-eyed fiddler.


love, harpgirl