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BS: The Good News About Anthrax

wysiwyg 17 Oct 01 - 10:39 AM
Jeri 17 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 01 - 11:05 AM
Gary T 17 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 01 - 11:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 01 - 11:27 AM
GUEST,just a nobody 17 Oct 01 - 11:33 AM
katlaughing 17 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 17 Oct 01 - 12:02 PM
Noreen 17 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Oct 01 - 01:45 PM
Greg F. 17 Oct 01 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 17 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM
catspaw49 17 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM
GUEST,just a nobody 17 Oct 01 - 04:56 PM
SharonA 17 Oct 01 - 05:15 PM
catspaw49 17 Oct 01 - 05:32 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM
CarolC 17 Oct 01 - 06:15 PM
Greg F. 17 Oct 01 - 06:26 PM
Murray MacLeod 17 Oct 01 - 06:33 PM
CarolC 17 Oct 01 - 06:37 PM
Jeri 17 Oct 01 - 06:40 PM
Jeri 17 Oct 01 - 06:59 PM
SharonA 17 Oct 01 - 07:04 PM
BanjoRay 17 Oct 01 - 07:48 PM
GUEST 17 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 01 - 07:57 PM
GUEST 17 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM
Greg F. 17 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM
Murray MacLeod 17 Oct 01 - 08:48 PM
Greg F. 17 Oct 01 - 09:13 PM
CarolC 17 Oct 01 - 09:56 PM
Wolfgang 18 Oct 01 - 05:52 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 01 - 06:34 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 01 - 07:31 AM
Wolfgang 18 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM
Ferrara 18 Oct 01 - 11:09 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 18 Oct 01 - 11:34 AM
GUEST,Bagpuss (at work) 18 Oct 01 - 11:34 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 01 - 11:50 AM
katlaughing 18 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 01 - 12:17 PM
LR Mole 18 Oct 01 - 12:53 PM
Mrrzy 18 Oct 01 - 02:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 01 - 09:48 PM
Paul from Hull 18 Oct 01 - 09:51 PM
YOR 19 Oct 01 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,BigDaddy 20 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM
GUEST 20 Oct 01 - 07:00 PM
catspaw49 20 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM
GUEST,jnana yoga 21 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,erwin 21 Oct 01 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,BigDaddy 21 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

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Subject: The Good News About Anthrax
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:39 AM

No, I haven't lost my mind and I'm not trolling.

I just read this:

Effective dispersal of anthrax is difficult due to the fact that the bacteria cannot survive exposure to ultraviolet light or direct moisture.

OK, UV-- sunlight? It's vulnerable to good old sunlight?

We could stop this whole mailed-anthrax program simply by treating mail with UV, as some of us treat our water in the country? How hard would that be to do? Are heat lamps UV? Can we use the same lamp that hatches chicks, to treat mail?

What else do we know about anthrax that can help us stay calm (and think clearly) as we hear about increased exposure in the Capitol building?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM

UV doesn't travel through solid objects such as envelopes. I think a little bit may get in through windows, but not a significant amount. It's light, although a frequency of light we can't see. Full-spectrum lamps, like the ones used for plants, give off UV radiation/light.

UV also kills the tuberculosis bug, and UV lamps are sometimes used in hospitals. They could use the lamps in Post Offices and mail rooms in the areas where mail was stored in bulk, but it would only kill the bacteria that got out of the envelopes and wasn't buried at the bottom of a pile. I also don't know how long it takes to kill the bacteria - seconds, minutes...days?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:05 AM

Well, I started thinking about this as I contemplated how a worker would feel, who is assigned to open all the company mail-- you want me to WHAT?? What are the practical ramifications of all this? You know-- such as, "Will it be workman's comp if you get sick in the Capitol?"

This got me started on wondering how widely this could actually spread in a land blessed with a people of such ingenuity-- will we win the effort against terror with our minds?

Next I went to see what Red Cross was saying... and found that item above.

I was picturing a box with those insertable arm-hand gloves, to open mail in a sterile fashion... wondered what would need to be happening in the box to zap the bugs-- and presto.

Is it really that simple? Will we all have lightboxes like that, on our desks?

I had also thought, well, what if the airplane hijackers had carried anthrax on board too, to be dispersed by the explosion? I felt a lot better when I saw that sun and rain kill it.

My point is that it is SO EASY to get scared-- but we can choose to de-mystify that which is used to try to scare us. Cuz we are actually pretty damn smart when it comes to our survival.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Gary T
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM

Heat lamps give off infrared light, which is on the opposite side of the visible light spectrum from ultraviolet light. UV is found in the "black lamps" that were popular during the 60's and 70's.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:19 AM

That's a riot--

Hippies Kill Anthrax, Save Free World.

Far out!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:27 AM

If you want to kill a lot of people there are much easier way than messing around with anthrax bugs. If you want to frighten a lot of people I suppose setting off a scare like this and relying on the existence of the kind of twisted people who make hoax fire alarm calls and play around with computer viruses for fun is a good way.

The thing to remember is you are far far more likely to get killed in a road accident than any of this stuff. Not worth worrying about. If you work in a sorting officer you should be careful about suspicious packages anyway. Nothing new here really.

I'd like to hope that this could wipe out the junk mail companies overnight.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:33 AM

29 in the capital just tested positive for Anthrax. It has also showed up in Italy, Poland, Israel and (I think) France. This is a growing issue now. It is more than just taking a toll on a handful of people. It is designed to make us frightened. My wife does not want my children to come visit me at work, because I work in a financial center in St. Petersburg, where some of these people have been tracked. Despite all hope, I think this is going to get much worse, and these cases are going to start including many more people. I do not believe that this is just some isolated case, it is too wide spread. The problem is not just the person that opens the mail, but those that handle it even before it is opened. I don't know what to think anymore, it is getting harder and harder to shrug it off.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM

FAQS about Anthrax from CDC


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM

At the Capitol, the positive tests are for exposure, not infection. There are still only a handful of cases of infection since it began.

NY Gov. Pataki's office reports exposure as well. I am not sure if this is his Albany office or his NYC office.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:02 PM

I heard on Paul Harvey this morning that anthrax spores can be killed with a good ol' steam iron.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM

GUEST,just a nobody, you may be frightened, but that is no reason to frighten other people unnecessarily. You say: It has also showed up in Italy, Poland, Israel and (I think) France. As far as I am aware, there has been no instance of anthrax in any other country but America, although there have been false alarms and hoaxes worldwide.

I am in no way belittling the suffering of those involved, but I think everyone should be careful of their facts when panic could so easily be spread.

Victims of anthrax


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:45 PM

They always say the most frightening thing you can hear is someone saying "Don't Panic".

But panic really is the biggest threat, and in this case sickos sending of hoax packets to the people they don't like are the enemy. I hope they get treated that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:11 PM

Anthrax is an endemic bacteria in most of the world. There are human cases each year. There were regular cases in the U.S. up til about 1990. Just because the bacteria is found doesn't mean it originated with "terrorists". Get hold of some facts, folks, before you scare yourselves shitless.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM

Greg, I don't find the idea that people are getting Anthrax frightening... what I am concerned with is that this is not natural... This shit is getting mailed to people. Cattle get Anthrax, people that work with Cattle can get exposed and get anthrax, but no one is sending them a dead cow. Yes there is alot of hype, there are alot of hoaxes, but it does not make the danger any less real. I don't think it is Bin Ladin and crew.... but anyone that would take the time to harvest Anthrax, write a letter, lace it with the bacteria, lick the stamp and mail it... that pretty much shows premeditation, and effectively in my book makes him a terrorist. Regardless of affiliation, they are terrorists. Or am I missing something on how Anthrax is found naturally inside correspondence?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM

Well, personally, I get a lot of mail that's been sent by some horse's ass, so maybe it does occur in the envelope naturally.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,just a nobody
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:56 PM

You get letters from Lawyers?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:15 PM

McGrath says: "I'd like to hope that this could wipe out the junk mail companies overnight." Amen to that, Kevin!

Recently on the TV news (which is where I get most of my [mis]information), I've heard anthrax referred to sometimes as a bacteria and at other times as a virus. I've also been told by my doctor every winter that antibiotics are effective against one but not the other... but I forget which is which: are antibiotics prescribed for bacterial or viral infections? And which is anthrax?

Pardon my ignorance but, hey, I'm here to learn.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:32 PM

A good place to hang out for all medical info is at the Center for Disease Control. We've linked this site a lot in the past few weeks and it's well worth saving.

Antibiotic Resistance

Anthrax

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM

Thanks to those of you who joined me in lightening up a little on this topic, just for a break. It is serious-- I just thought we were in need of a lighter look at it for some relief.

If we could get the horse's asses Spaw knows to send their material to the junk mail companies...

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:15 PM

Has anyone besides me noticed that the only people being targeted with these antrax attacks are Democrats and the "liberal news media"?

It's probably just a bizarre coincidence, but it's sure got my attention.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:26 PM

anyone that would take the time to harvest Anthrax, write a letter, lace it with the bacteria, lick the stamp and mail it... that pretty much shows premeditation, and effectively in my book makes him a terrorist.

OK, Just A- no argument from me about this point. But since it IS bacteria, and can be easily cultured by anyone with minimal knowledge & equipment, your "terrorist"- or more probably terrorists- could be anyone from a disgrutled Klebold-type high school student to the Aryan Nations to Anti-Abortion wackoes to a Unibomber-type to a McVeigh, etc.,etc.-or all of these! taking advantage of the situation- and the more the press plays this up and the hysteria grows, the more copycat nut-cases will join the ranks of the mailers!



Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:33 PM

Uh, Greg, I have just finished listening to a discussion (by experts) on NPR on this very topic and to get weapon grade anthrax bacteria into dispersable form (ie the white powder) is very definitely NOT within the scope of a " disgrutled Klebold-type high school student".

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:37 PM

SharonA, anthrax is a bacterium. Antibiotics kill bacteria. They do not kill viruses.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:40 PM

Sharon, anthrax is a bacteria. Antibiotics are effective against bacteria, not viruses. Think 'colds.' Think herpes, warts, chicken pox. It's your own immunse system that cures you, although vaccines can prevent many of the diseases the viruses cause.

Bacteria are things like strep, staph, pneumonia and salmonella. Although bacteria can develop resistance to antibiotics, they ARE usually susceptible to something.

Sometimes, bacteria produce toxins (poisons) and antibiotics don't work on them. Botox is the toxin produced by Clostridium botulinum. It's not the bacteria itself that can make you sick, it's the toxin it produces. Anthrax produces a toxin when it's inside a person. Antibiotics are effective against the actual bacteria, but if a person develops symptoms, the drugs don't usually work. I believe this is because it's the toxins produced by the anthrax bacteria that makes people sick and eventually kills them, and the drugs don't destroy the toxins.

One poor man died. I don't wish to belittle that, but in the grand scheme of things, one death is NOT something I'm going to get frightened about. If these guys went to as much trouble as they must have to plan, get their hands on some anthrax, take precautions while handling it, addressed and sent the letters, then sat back to watch the resulting disaster, they have to be pretty pissed off. One death, a chance for public education, and tighter security so the liklihood of any similar attempts succeeding is greatly lessened.

People will focus, and they may act in ways that are very close to superstitious - cold symptoms may scare people, folks may be afraid to go anywhere, people will wear surgical masks or be afraid to touch anything, etc. That will pass, and hopefully what will remain is the knowledge we've all gained because of this. It may not be long before monitoring devices are widely available. Then again, the probability that anyone else has the resources and the level of insanity of Osama bin Laden.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:59 PM

...is low. People will focus on this issue. Jeez - please ignore the typos. ("Immunse system," indeed!)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: SharonA
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:04 PM

Thanks for the anthrax info, guys. Though I understood her point, I got a wry chuckle out of Jeri's comment, "It's your own immune system that cures you": my own personal immune system isn't very good at that; I have lupus (SLE) and sarcoidosis, both chronic autoimmune diseases. So my body has been attacking itself for a long time before the terrorists got into the act! ;^)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: BanjoRay
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:48 PM

I see that the first people who got Anthrax got sent white powder which gave them pulmonary infections - I wonder how that happened?


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM

It does help to keep things in perspective. ABC News tonight reported on the government/media frenzy (they do seem to be feeding one another at this point), and offered up this little tidbit.

One person has contracted the deadliest form anthrax and died. This winter in the US, 20,000 will die from the flu.

One need not be a Nobel mathematician to figure out which disease is the more threatening to human health in the US right now. But even so, don't you all think we should just go ahead and insist we nuke the mail? I'm sure it'll save us from Usama Bin Laden and the Taliban.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:57 PM

At church they are saying they want to iron their mail. Dear old practical old little old wise old ladies! They ain't too fazed, even tho a clinic here in our rural wilderness closed down when they got some white powder yesterday. I'm sure it's just a pranky-cat.

And what if it isn't? We all go sometime and I'm not afraid of it-- not as afraid as I am about living with a bunch of people so scared their minds stop! Other generations have had terrible things to bear-- so maybe we aren't exempt in our time. Life is like that, if you LIVE it.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM

Actually, there is no evidence of the first anthrax case--you know, that "coincidental" case linking American Media to the terrorists through an editor's wife who rented them their Florida apartments. There is no envelope as evidence that the exposure came through the mail because (the FBI guesses) it might have been "accidentally" incinerted with the rest of the trash (sic) at American Media.

The only mail evidence in existence at this point is the traces of anthrax found here and there in Democratic offices and in the liberal news media offices (as CarolC pointed out) mail rooms and two envelopes which I'm sure you've all seen by now, along with the ominously believable messages about taking our medicine (more sic).

This whole thing is beginning to show all the professionalism of an FBI or CIA job, actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

Coupla problems, Murray:
1. None of the Anthrax found so far is what you refer to as "weapons grade"- in fact, its all been pretty run-of the mill strains.
2. Anthrax spores, or dispersable bacteria, are not a white anything, according to several biochemists who have been on the news.
Sorry, mate.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:48 PM

I can't argue the point, Greg, but the boffin on NPR was quite adamant that to make anthrax bacteria dispersable required a ton of sophisticated monitoring equipment, way outside the range of the Boy's Own Chemistry set.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:13 PM

I think he's talking about "dispersing" it in a weapon, Murray. People can, and regularly do, get anthrax simply by handling infected wool, hence "Wool-Sorter's Disease". If it couldn't be transmitted without being "made" dispersible, it wouldn't exist in nature as a communicable disease, now would it?   :>)

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:56 PM

Well, I don't know about the FBI or CIA. But I do find myself wondering if someone (not necessarily the US government) might be doing this in order to try to get the US government to initiate a prolonged military action in Iraq, and to creat a groundswell of public support for such an action. This is probably an unlikely scenario, but it's one that I'm considering as a possibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:52 AM

Now we have the first confirmed case outside of the USA: in Nairobi, Kenia. The letter was posted in Atlanta.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:34 AM

Carol C's speculation had occurred to me as well. I don't even think it is particularly unlikely.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:31 AM

CarolC,

Reference to CIA/FBI was tongue in cheek.

My point is, the anthrax stuff has all the earmarks of a CIA misinformation/destabilization campaign being waged by Americans with a specific political agenda, not a campaign by Arab terrorists.

"A different kind of war" may well include CIA misinformation campaigns against the American citizenry to create an effective smokescreen to allow highly unethical and illegal covert activities by our government to take place without close scrutiny, both here and abroad.

And is it ever working! In my local daily paper here in the hinterlands, outside the page 2 "Nation/World" section, the entire front section of the paper was all terrorist, anthrax, and 9/11 related stories. Not one single news item. Not one.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM

And that the Anthrax containing letter to Nairobi has been mailed in the USA on the 9th of September only proves that the CIA/FBI knew of the events of Sept 11th before the event???? If you have strange conspiration theories at least try to make them compatible with the facts.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Ferrara
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:09 AM

I think that turning our attention to possible sources of the anthrax letters for more than 5 minutes, is a different form of panic response.

There are people working on the question. Granted they may lie to us, or they may not find answers, but speculation won't come up with answers that are any more reliable.

My first reaction, considering the targets, was that it [the source of the anthrax in the mail ] was a right wing American hate group, riding the coattails of the bin Laden attack. Bill's, was that it was a "copycat crime" by someone, not necessarily Arab-related. But there are an awful lot of possibilities.

... Actually, in the FIRST incident I heard of, the origin was overseas and the disease was carried on porn pictures. This made me think it might be an Arab source after all, because our porn gives many of them a distorted idea of our society....

THe point is it doesn't matter. So far it seems to be individual actions, not a concerted attack. Scary, but no more potentially fatal to any one individual, than driving on the Beltway during rush hour.... and most of us take that danger for granted.

The key is not to ACT on any of these hypotheses, not to spread them until there is genuine evidence, and not to set up new threats in your mind.

There are genuine problems occurring right now, and a lot of potential problems. Too much speculation can cause people to react to All the Potential problems -- a huge strain on the system, because there are so many of them.

Anyway that's the idea I'm going on for now.

Rita


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:34 AM

Ahem! The Solution? "address unkown Return To Sender" ;-) Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,Bagpuss (at work)
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:34 AM

It's blatantly obvious that the hoaxes (if not the few real anthrax cases) have been done by the people who manufacture the antibiotics. Well they certainly have the most to gain from this sort of panic....

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:50 AM

Wolfgang,

My postings are intended to be ironic, to call attention to the fact that REAL news isn't being reported.

As to a grip on the facts--well, the closure of the US Congress by House Speaker Hastert yesterday shows he believes every little urban legend floating in through his office door. He claimed anthrax had been found in the building ventilation system, even though it hadn't.

Shutting down Congress was done by a highly partisan Republican House Speaker the same day the President left the country. No Congressional business will now be completed until the President returns from Asia on Monday.

Coincidence? I don't think so.

The Bush administration senior staff, most of whom are accompanying the prez to Asia, are paranoid as hell as to what might happen in their absence, and that someone else might come to control THEIR news/news cycle. The Bush administration OWNS the airwaves right now.

Also, I'm sure they don't trust Cheney.

Also, I'm sure they didn't want any Democratic tinkering with the anti-terrorism legislation currently being debated in Congress. If they are going to be able to wage covert war against their own citizenry legally, as the administration's legislation clearly intends to do, they can't afford to let that Anti-Terrorism Act float through Congress with too many amendments and committee deals. So they had Hastert shut down the government so they didn't have to rely on Cheney (the fox) to guard the henhouse (Congress) while they are trying to make China's human rights violations into saintly acts in their War on Terrorism (TM).


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM

Anyone remember the Tylenol scare with several people dying of the tainted product?

I think this smacks of the same kind of sick mind, probably American, copycat. It is not beyond the scope fo the extremists like the Arayan Brotherhood, esp. when one considers their goal is to eliminate all people of colour, as well as many others opposed to their ideas of life. It's not much of a stretch to believe that, in their convoluted way, they may hope to prolong things against Arabs and make it harder for Arabs in America, as well as go after all of the liberal press and politicians. They basically consider themselves at war, anyway, within their own country and have had for quite a while.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:17 PM

Or the anti-abortionists, or the survivalists, etc etc

I agree kat--from the gitgo, I've felt this thing definitely smelled like American right wing fanatics of some sort, especially when you consider the Florida/National Enquirer connections. Let us not forget another Baby Bush is family dynastying down there, and then there is the Bush wing of the Wacked Media at Fox...

It isn't conspiracy theorizing, its just looking at the obvious connections.

I happen to think anthrax thing involves some despicable and unsavory fringe elements of Washington's political mainstream, possibly being manipulated by higher ups. Such Machiavellian drams have played themselves out many times inside the beltway, at the expense of those beyond it.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: LR Mole
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:53 PM

Hmmmm...anthrax is from cows' hooves.Next scare: killer jello!Oh, no, you have to heat that.Is pitching horseshoes a terrorist plot??


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 02:37 PM

Sorry about this, but it's 1 bacterium, many bacteria. Anthrax is a bacterium, not a bacteria. Somebody tell the media, too, please.

Also, I have heard that it was "weapon-grade" because of the virulence of the particular strain, but not yet biologically engineered to be contagious, which would be really bad. I hope that somebody is going to send Cipro to Kenya for free, and anywhere else this crops up. Sorry for the profits of the drug companies and all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:48 PM

Maybe Very Important People should be expected to open their own mail and not have other people do it for them, as a form of damage limitation.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:51 PM

*G*


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: YOR
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:06 AM

All this talk about Anthrax! And 20,000 people a year die of the flu.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM

Right on YOR! If people are going to panic over a "scare" like this, how the heck are we going to react if we have to fight an enemy with a real army and weaponry to match our own? If the media are going to apply their own "slant" to news items as they so often do, maybe they would do us all a better service by making fun of these attempted acts of terror instead of reporting how "panicked" we all are.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:00 PM

Actually, I'm not panicked or afraid. And I haven't felt threatened either. Not by the attacks on 9/11 or the recent anthrax.

And with the exception of those who live at/near ground zero or were directly connected to the attacks/anthrax through family, friends, or work colleagues, I can't for the life of me figure out just who the hell it is that is panicking. Except Oprah's audience, of course--but that is to be expected. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM

No problem folks, the solution is at hand......Check This Thread

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,jnana yoga
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM

Odd isn't it, that the anthrax attacks on abortion clinics aren't being mentioned at all in the mainline media?

I first heard of it when I read the following article at the Village Voice:

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0142/otis.php


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,erwin
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 11:23 AM

Gudday All, I stumbled on this DF just now and thought this copy n'paste might be relevant. See ya, Erwin

'' Since the media has decided to scare everyone with predictions of chemical, biological, or nuclear warfare on our turf I decided to write a paper and keep things in their proper perspective.

I am a retired military weapons, munitions, and training expert.

Lesson number one: In the mid 1990s there were a series of nerve gas attacks on crowded Japanese subway stations.

Given perfect conditions for an attack less than 10% of the people there were injured (the injured were better in a few hours) and only one percent of the injured died.

60 Minutes once had a fellow telling us that one drop of nerve gas could kill a thousand people, well he didn't tell you the thousand dead people per drop was theoretical.

Drill Sergeants exaggerate how terrible this stuff was to keep the recruits awake in class (I know this because I was a Drill Sergeant too).

Forget everything you've ever seen on TV, in the movies, or read in a novel about this stuff, it was all a lie (read this sentence again out loud!).

These weapons are about terror, if you remain calm, you will probably not die.

This is far less scary than the media and their "Experts," make it sound.

Chemical weapons are categorized as Nerve, Blood, Blister, and Incapacitating agents Contrary to the hype of reporters and politicians they are not weapons of mass destruction they are "Area denial,"

and terror weapons that don't destroy! anything. When you leave the area you almost always leave the risk. That's the difference; you can leave the area and the risk; soldiers may have to stay put and sit through it and that's why they need all that spiffy gear. These are not gasses, they are vapors and/or air borne particles. The agent must be delivered in sufficient quantity to injure, and that defines when/how it's used.

Every day we have a morning and evening inversion where "stuff," suspended in the air gets pushed down.

This inversion is why allergies (pollen) and air pollution are worst at these times of the day. So, a chemical attack will have it's best effect an hour of so either side of sunrise/sunset.

Also, being vapors and airborne particles they are heavier than air so they will seek low places like ditches, basements and underground garages.

This stuff won't work when it's freezing, it doesn't last when it's hot, and wind spreads it too thin too fast. They've got to get this stuff on you, or, get you to inhale it for it to work. They also have to get the concentration of chemicals high enough to kill or wound you. Too little and it's nothing, too much and it's wasted.

What I hope you've gathered by this point is that a chemical weapons attack that kills a lot of people is incredibly hard to do with military grade agents and equipment so you can imagine how hard it will be for terrorists. The more you know about this stuff the more you realize how hard it is to use.

We'll start by talking about nerve agents. You have these in your house, plain old bug killer (like Raid)is nerve agent.

All nerve agents work the same way; they are cholinesterase inhibitors that mess up the signals your nervous system uses to make your body function. It can harm you if you get it on your skin but it works best if they can get you to inhale it.

If you don't die in the first minute and you can leave the area you're probably gonna live. The military's antidote for all nerve agents is atropine and pralidoxime chloride.

Neither one of these does anything to cure the nerve agent, they send your body into overdrive to keep you alive for five minutes, after that the agent is used up.

Your best protection is fresh air and staying calm.

Listed are the symptoms for nerve agent poisoning. Sudden headache, Dimness of vision (someone you're looking at will have pinpointed pupils), Runny nose, Excessive saliva or drooling, Difficulty breathing, Tightness in chest, Nausea, Stomach cramps, Twitching of exposed skin where a liquid just got on you. If you are in public and you start experiencing these symptoms, first ask yourself, did anything out of the ordinary just happen, a loud pop, did someone spray something on the crowd? Are other people getting sick too?

Is there an odor of new mown hay, green corn, something fruity, or camphor where it shouldn't be? If the answer is yes, then calmly (if you panic you breathe faster and inhale more air/poison) leave the area and head up wind, or, outside.

Fresh air is the best "right now antidote." If you have a blob of liquid that looks like molasses or Karo syrup on you; blot it or scrape it off and away from yourself with anything disposable.

This stuff works based on your body weight, what a crop duster uses to kill bugs won't hurt you unless you stand there and breathe it in real deep, then lick the residue off the ground for while.

Remember they have to do all the work, they have to get the concentration up and keep it up for several minutes while all you have to do is quit getting it on you/quit breathing it by putting space between you and the attack.

Blood agents are cyanide or arsine which effect your blood's ability to provide oxygen to your tissue. The scenario for attack would be the same as nerve agent. Look for a pop or someone splashing/spraying something and folks around there getting woozy/falling down. The telltale smells are bitter almonds or garlic where it shouldn't be. The symptoms are blue lips, blue under the fingernails rapid breathing.

The military's antidote is amyl nitride and just like nerve agent antidote it just keeps your body working for five minutes till the toxins are used up.

Fresh air is the your best individual chance.

Blister agents (distilled mustard) are so nasty that nobody wants to even handle it let alone use it.

It's almost impossible to handle safely and may have delayed effect of up to 12 hours. The attack scenario is also limited to the things you'd see from other chemicals. If you do get large, painful blisters for no apparent reason, don't pop them,

if you must, don't let the liquid from the blister get on any other area, the stuff just keeps on spreading. It's just as likely to harm the user as the target. Soap, water, sunshine, and fresh air are this stuff's enemy. Bottom line on chemical weapons (it's the same if they use industrial chemical spills); they are intended to make you panic, to terrorize you, to heard you like sheep to the wolves. If there is an attack, leave the area and go upwind, or to the sides of the wind stream. They have to get the stuff to you, and on you. You're more likely to be hurt by a drunk driver on any given day than be hurt by one of these attacks. Your odds get better if you leave the area.

Soap, water, time, and fresh air really deal this stuff a knock-out- punch.

Don't let fear of an isolated attack rule your life. The odds are really on your side.

Nuclear bombs. These are the only weapons of mass destruction on earth. The effects of a nuclear bomb are heat, blast, EMP, and radiation. If you see a bright flash of light like the sun, where the sun isn't, fall to the ground! The heat will be over in a second. Then there will be two blast waves, one out going, and one on it's way back. Don't stand up to see what happened after the first wave; anything that's going to happen will have happened in two full minutes. These will be low yield devices and will not level whole cities. If you live through the heat, blast, and initial burst of radiation, you'll probably live for a very very long time. Radiation will not create fifty foot tall women, or giant ants and grass hoppers the size of tanks. These will be at the most 1 kiloton bombs; that's the equivalent of 1,000 tons of TNT. Here's the real deal, flying debris and radiation will kill a lot of exposed (not all)!

people within a half mile of the blast. Under perfect conditions this is about a half mile circle of death and destruction, but, when it's done it's done.

EMP stands for Electro Magnetic Pulse and it will fry every electronic device for a good distance, it's impossible to say what and how far but probably not over a couple of miles from ground zero is a good guess. Cars, cell phones, computers, ATMs, you name it, all will be out of order. There are lots of kinds of radiation, you only need to worry about three, the others you have lived with for years. You need to worry about "Ionizing radiation," these are little sub atomic particles that go whizzing along at the speed of light. They hit individual cells in your body, kill the nucleus and keep on going. That's how you get radiation poisoning, you have so many dead cells in your body that the decaying cells poison you. It's the same as people getting radiation treatments for cancer, only a bigger area gets radiated. The good news is you don't have to just sit there and take it, and there's lots you can do rather than panic. First; your skin will stop alpha particles, a page of a news paper or your clothing will stop beta particles, you just gotta try and avoid inhaling dust that's contaminated with atoms that are emitting these things and you'll be generally safe from them.

Gamma rays are particles that travel like rays (quantum physics makes my brain hurt) and they create the same damage as alpha and beta particles only they keep going and kill lots of cells as they go all the way through your body. It takes a lot to stop these things, lots of dense material, on the other hand it takes a lot of this to kill you. Your defense is as always to not panic. Basic hygiene and normal preparation are your friends. All canned or frozen food is safe to eat. The radiation poisoning will not effect plants so fruits and vegetables are OK if there's no dust on them (rinse them off if there is). If you don't have running water and you need to collect rain water or use water from wherever, just let it sit for thirty minutes and skim off the water gently from the top. The dust with the bad stuff in it will settle and the remaining water can be used for the toilet which will still work if you have a bucket of water to pour in the tank.

Finally there's biological warfare. There's not much to cover here.

Basic personal hygiene and sanitation will take you further than a million doctors. Wash your hands often, don't share drinks, food, sloppy kisses , etc., ... with strangers. Keep your garbage can with a tight lid on it, don't have standing water (like old buckets, ditches, or kiddy pools) laying around to allow mosquitoes breeding room. This stuff is carried by vectors, that is bugs, rodents, and contaminated material.

If biological warfare is as easy as the TV makes it sound, why has Saddam Hussein spent twenty years, millions, and millions of dollars trying to get it right? If you're clean of person and home you eat well and are active you're gonna live. Overall preparation for any terrorist attack is the same as you'd take for a big storm. If you want a gas mask, fine, go get one. I know this stuff and I'm not getting one and I told my Mom not to bother with one either (how's that for confidence). We have a week's worth of cash, several days worth of canned goods and plenty of soap and water.

We don't leave stuff out to attract bugs or rodents so we don't have them. These people can't conceive a nation this big with this much resources. These weapons are made to cause panic, terror, and to demoralize. If we don't run around like sheep they won't use this stuff after they find out it's no fun. The government is going nuts over this stuff because they have to protect every inch of America. You've only gotta protect yourself, and by doing that, you help the country.

Finally, there are millions of caveats to everything I wrote here and you can think up specific scenarios where my advice isn't the best. This letter is supposed to help the greatest number of people under the greatest number of situations. If you don't like my work, don't nit pick, just sit down and explain chemical, nuclear, and biological warfare in a document around three pages long yourself. This is how we the people of the United States can rob these people of their most desired goal, your terror.

SFC Red Thomas (Ret) Armor Master Gunner

Mesa, AZ

Reproduction and distribution is authorized and encouraged.

Just give me credit for my work.


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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax
From: GUEST,BigDaddy
Date: 21 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM

Thanks, Guest,erwin...nice to hear from someone who knows what he's talking about. Hope you stick around.


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