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BS: The Good News About Anthrax
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Subject: The Good News About Anthrax From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:39 AM No, I haven't lost my mind and I'm not trolling. I just read this: Effective dispersal of anthrax is difficult due to the fact that the bacteria cannot survive exposure to ultraviolet light or direct moisture. OK, UV-- sunlight? It's vulnerable to good old sunlight? We could stop this whole mailed-anthrax program simply by treating mail with UV, as some of us treat our water in the country? How hard would that be to do? Are heat lamps UV? Can we use the same lamp that hatches chicks, to treat mail? What else do we know about anthrax that can help us stay calm (and think clearly) as we hear about increased exposure in the Capitol building? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Jeri Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM UV doesn't travel through solid objects such as envelopes. I think a little bit may get in through windows, but not a significant amount. It's light, although a frequency of light we can't see. Full-spectrum lamps, like the ones used for plants, give off UV radiation/light. UV also kills the tuberculosis bug, and UV lamps are sometimes used in hospitals. They could use the lamps in Post Offices and mail rooms in the areas where mail was stored in bulk, but it would only kill the bacteria that got out of the envelopes and wasn't buried at the bottom of a pile. I also don't know how long it takes to kill the bacteria - seconds, minutes...days? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:05 AM Well, I started thinking about this as I contemplated how a worker would feel, who is assigned to open all the company mail-- you want me to WHAT?? What are the practical ramifications of all this? You know-- such as, "Will it be workman's comp if you get sick in the Capitol?" This got me started on wondering how widely this could actually spread in a land blessed with a people of such ingenuity-- will we win the effort against terror with our minds? Next I went to see what Red Cross was saying... and found that item above. I was picturing a box with those insertable arm-hand gloves, to open mail in a sterile fashion... wondered what would need to be happening in the box to zap the bugs-- and presto. Is it really that simple? Will we all have lightboxes like that, on our desks? I had also thought, well, what if the airplane hijackers had carried anthrax on board too, to be dispersed by the explosion? I felt a lot better when I saw that sun and rain kill it. My point is that it is SO EASY to get scared-- but we can choose to de-mystify that which is used to try to scare us. Cuz we are actually pretty damn smart when it comes to our survival. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Gary T Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM Heat lamps give off infrared light, which is on the opposite side of the visible light spectrum from ultraviolet light. UV is found in the "black lamps" that were popular during the 60's and 70's. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:19 AM That's a riot-- Hippies Kill Anthrax, Save Free World. Far out! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:27 AM If you want to kill a lot of people there are much easier way than messing around with anthrax bugs. If you want to frighten a lot of people I suppose setting off a scare like this and relying on the existence of the kind of twisted people who make hoax fire alarm calls and play around with computer viruses for fun is a good way.
The thing to remember is you are far far more likely to get killed in a road accident than any of this stuff. Not worth worrying about. If you work in a sorting officer you should be careful about suspicious packages anyway. Nothing new here really.
I'd like to hope that this could wipe out the junk mail companies overnight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST,just a nobody Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:33 AM 29 in the capital just tested positive for Anthrax. It has also showed up in Italy, Poland, Israel and (I think) France. This is a growing issue now. It is more than just taking a toll on a handful of people. It is designed to make us frightened. My wife does not want my children to come visit me at work, because I work in a financial center in St. Petersburg, where some of these people have been tracked. Despite all hope, I think this is going to get much worse, and these cases are going to start including many more people. I do not believe that this is just some isolated case, it is too wide spread. The problem is not just the person that opens the mail, but those that handle it even before it is opened. I don't know what to think anymore, it is getting harder and harder to shrug it off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: katlaughing Date: 17 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM FAQS about Anthrax from CDC |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM At the Capitol, the positive tests are for exposure, not infection. There are still only a handful of cases of infection since it began. NY Gov. Pataki's office reports exposure as well. I am not sure if this is his Albany office or his NYC office. ~S~
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:02 PM I heard on Paul Harvey this morning that anthrax spores can be killed with a good ol' steam iron. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Noreen Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM GUEST,just a nobody, you may be frightened, but that is no reason to frighten other people unnecessarily. You say: It has also showed up in Italy, Poland, Israel and (I think) France. As far as I am aware, there has been no instance of anthrax in any other country but America, although there have been false alarms and hoaxes worldwide. I am in no way belittling the suffering of those involved, but I think everyone should be careful of their facts when panic could so easily be spread.
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:45 PM They always say the most frightening thing you can hear is someone saying "Don't Panic".
But panic really is the biggest threat, and in this case sickos sending of hoax packets to the people they don't like are the enemy. I hope they get treated that way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Greg F. Date: 17 Oct 01 - 02:11 PM Anthrax is an endemic bacteria in most of the world. There are human cases each year. There were regular cases in the U.S. up til about 1990. Just because the bacteria is found doesn't mean it originated with "terrorists". Get hold of some facts, folks, before you scare yourselves shitless. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST,just a nobody Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:05 PM Greg, I don't find the idea that people are getting Anthrax frightening... what I am concerned with is that this is not natural... This shit is getting mailed to people. Cattle get Anthrax, people that work with Cattle can get exposed and get anthrax, but no one is sending them a dead cow. Yes there is alot of hype, there are alot of hoaxes, but it does not make the danger any less real. I don't think it is Bin Ladin and crew.... but anyone that would take the time to harvest Anthrax, write a letter, lace it with the bacteria, lick the stamp and mail it... that pretty much shows premeditation, and effectively in my book makes him a terrorist. Regardless of affiliation, they are terrorists. Or am I missing something on how Anthrax is found naturally inside correspondence? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM Well, personally, I get a lot of mail that's been sent by some horse's ass, so maybe it does occur in the envelope naturally. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST,just a nobody Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:56 PM You get letters from Lawyers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: SharonA Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:15 PM McGrath says: "I'd like to hope that this could wipe out the junk mail companies overnight." Amen to that, Kevin! Recently on the TV news (which is where I get most of my [mis]information), I've heard anthrax referred to sometimes as a bacteria and at other times as a virus. I've also been told by my doctor every winter that antibiotics are effective against one but not the other... but I forget which is which: are antibiotics prescribed for bacterial or viral infections? And which is anthrax? Pardon my ignorance but, hey, I'm here to learn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:32 PM A good place to hang out for all medical info is at the Center for Disease Control. We've linked this site a lot in the past few weeks and it's well worth saving. Spaw
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM Thanks to those of you who joined me in lightening up a little on this topic, just for a break. It is serious-- I just thought we were in need of a lighter look at it for some relief. If we could get the horse's asses Spaw knows to send their material to the junk mail companies... ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: CarolC Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:15 PM Has anyone besides me noticed that the only people being targeted with these antrax attacks are Democrats and the "liberal news media"? It's probably just a bizarre coincidence, but it's sure got my attention. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Greg F. Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:26 PM anyone that would take the time to harvest Anthrax, write a letter, lace it with the bacteria, lick the stamp and mail it... that pretty much shows premeditation, and effectively in my book makes him a terrorist. OK, Just A- no argument from me about this point. But since it IS bacteria, and can be easily cultured by anyone with minimal knowledge & equipment, your "terrorist"- or more probably terrorists- could be anyone from a disgrutled Klebold-type high school student to the Aryan Nations to Anti-Abortion wackoes to a Unibomber-type to a McVeigh, etc.,etc.-or all of these! taking advantage of the situation- and the more the press plays this up and the hysteria grows, the more copycat nut-cases will join the ranks of the mailers!
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Murray MacLeod Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:33 PM Uh, Greg, I have just finished listening to a discussion (by experts) on NPR on this very topic and to get weapon grade anthrax bacteria into dispersable form (ie the white powder) is very definitely NOT within the scope of a " disgrutled Klebold-type high school student". Murray
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: CarolC Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:37 PM SharonA, anthrax is a bacterium. Antibiotics kill bacteria. They do not kill viruses. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Jeri Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:40 PM Sharon, anthrax is a bacteria. Antibiotics are effective against bacteria, not viruses. Think 'colds.' Think herpes, warts, chicken pox. It's your own immunse system that cures you, although vaccines can prevent many of the diseases the viruses cause. Bacteria are things like strep, staph, pneumonia and salmonella. Although bacteria can develop resistance to antibiotics, they ARE usually susceptible to something. Sometimes, bacteria produce toxins (poisons) and antibiotics don't work on them. Botox is the toxin produced by Clostridium botulinum. It's not the bacteria itself that can make you sick, it's the toxin it produces. Anthrax produces a toxin when it's inside a person. Antibiotics are effective against the actual bacteria, but if a person develops symptoms, the drugs don't usually work. I believe this is because it's the toxins produced by the anthrax bacteria that makes people sick and eventually kills them, and the drugs don't destroy the toxins. One poor man died. I don't wish to belittle that, but in the grand scheme of things, one death is NOT something I'm going to get frightened about. If these guys went to as much trouble as they must have to plan, get their hands on some anthrax, take precautions while handling it, addressed and sent the letters, then sat back to watch the resulting disaster, they have to be pretty pissed off. One death, a chance for public education, and tighter security so the liklihood of any similar attempts succeeding is greatly lessened. People will focus, and they may act in ways that are very close to superstitious - cold symptoms may scare people, folks may be afraid to go anywhere, people will wear surgical masks or be afraid to touch anything, etc. That will pass, and hopefully what will remain is the knowledge we've all gained because of this. It may not be long before monitoring devices are widely available. Then again, the probability that anyone else has the resources and the level of insanity of Osama bin Laden. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Jeri Date: 17 Oct 01 - 06:59 PM ...is low. People will focus on this issue. Jeez - please ignore the typos. ("Immunse system," indeed!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: SharonA Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:04 PM Thanks for the anthrax info, guys. Though I understood her point, I got a wry chuckle out of Jeri's comment, "It's your own immune system that cures you": my own personal immune system isn't very good at that; I have lupus (SLE) and sarcoidosis, both chronic autoimmune diseases. So my body has been attacking itself for a long time before the terrorists got into the act! ;^) |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: BanjoRay Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:48 PM I see that the first people who got Anthrax got sent white powder which gave them pulmonary infections - I wonder how that happened? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM It does help to keep things in perspective. ABC News tonight reported on the government/media frenzy (they do seem to be feeding one another at this point), and offered up this little tidbit. One person has contracted the deadliest form anthrax and died. This winter in the US, 20,000 will die from the flu. One need not be a Nobel mathematician to figure out which disease is the more threatening to human health in the US right now. But even so, don't you all think we should just go ahead and insist we nuke the mail? I'm sure it'll save us from Usama Bin Laden and the Taliban. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:57 PM At church they are saying they want to iron their mail. Dear old practical old little old wise old ladies! They ain't too fazed, even tho a clinic here in our rural wilderness closed down when they got some white powder yesterday. I'm sure it's just a pranky-cat. And what if it isn't? We all go sometime and I'm not afraid of it-- not as afraid as I am about living with a bunch of people so scared their minds stop! Other generations have had terrible things to bear-- so maybe we aren't exempt in our time. Life is like that, if you LIVE it. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM Actually, there is no evidence of the first anthrax case--you know, that "coincidental" case linking American Media to the terrorists through an editor's wife who rented them their Florida apartments. There is no envelope as evidence that the exposure came through the mail because (the FBI guesses) it might have been "accidentally" incinerted with the rest of the trash (sic) at American Media. The only mail evidence in existence at this point is the traces of anthrax found here and there in Democratic offices and in the liberal news media offices (as CarolC pointed out) mail rooms and two envelopes which I'm sure you've all seen by now, along with the ominously believable messages about taking our medicine (more sic). This whole thing is beginning to show all the professionalism of an FBI or CIA job, actually. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Greg F. Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:27 PM Coupla problems, Murray: 1. None of the Anthrax found so far is what you refer to as "weapons grade"- in fact, its all been pretty run-of the mill strains. 2. Anthrax spores, or dispersable bacteria, are not a white anything, according to several biochemists who have been on the news. Sorry, mate. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Murray MacLeod Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:48 PM I can't argue the point, Greg, but the boffin on NPR was quite adamant that to make anthrax bacteria dispersable required a ton of sophisticated monitoring equipment, way outside the range of the Boy's Own Chemistry set. Murray |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Greg F. Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:13 PM I think he's talking about "dispersing" it in a weapon, Murray. People can, and regularly do, get anthrax simply by handling infected wool, hence "Wool-Sorter's Disease". If it couldn't be transmitted without being "made" dispersible, it wouldn't exist in nature as a communicable disease, now would it? :>) Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: CarolC Date: 17 Oct 01 - 09:56 PM Well, I don't know about the FBI or CIA. But I do find myself wondering if someone (not necessarily the US government) might be doing this in order to try to get the US government to initiate a prolonged military action in Iraq, and to creat a groundswell of public support for such an action. This is probably an unlikely scenario, but it's one that I'm considering as a possibility. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:52 AM Now we have the first confirmed case outside of the USA: in Nairobi, Kenia. The letter was posted in Atlanta. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Oct 01 - 06:34 AM Carol C's speculation had occurred to me as well. I don't even think it is particularly unlikely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:31 AM CarolC, Reference to CIA/FBI was tongue in cheek. My point is, the anthrax stuff has all the earmarks of a CIA misinformation/destabilization campaign being waged by Americans with a specific political agenda, not a campaign by Arab terrorists. "A different kind of war" may well include CIA misinformation campaigns against the American citizenry to create an effective smokescreen to allow highly unethical and illegal covert activities by our government to take place without close scrutiny, both here and abroad. And is it ever working! In my local daily paper here in the hinterlands, outside the page 2 "Nation/World" section, the entire front section of the paper was all terrorist, anthrax, and 9/11 related stories. Not one single news item. Not one.
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM And that the Anthrax containing letter to Nairobi has been mailed in the USA on the 9th of September only proves that the CIA/FBI knew of the events of Sept 11th before the event???? If you have strange conspiration theories at least try to make them compatible with the facts. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Ferrara Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:09 AM I think that turning our attention to possible sources of the anthrax letters for more than 5 minutes, is a different form of panic response. There are people working on the question. Granted they may lie to us, or they may not find answers, but speculation won't come up with answers that are any more reliable. My first reaction, considering the targets, was that it [the source of the anthrax in the mail ] was a right wing American hate group, riding the coattails of the bin Laden attack. Bill's, was that it was a "copycat crime" by someone, not necessarily Arab-related. But there are an awful lot of possibilities. ... Actually, in the FIRST incident I heard of, the origin was overseas and the disease was carried on porn pictures. This made me think it might be an Arab source after all, because our porn gives many of them a distorted idea of our society.... THe point is it doesn't matter. So far it seems to be individual actions, not a concerted attack. Scary, but no more potentially fatal to any one individual, than driving on the Beltway during rush hour.... and most of us take that danger for granted. The key is not to ACT on any of these hypotheses, not to spread them until there is genuine evidence, and not to set up new threats in your mind. There are genuine problems occurring right now, and a lot of potential problems. Too much speculation can cause people to react to All the Potential problems -- a huge strain on the system, because there are so many of them. Anyway that's the idea I'm going on for now. Rita
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:34 AM Ahem! The Solution? "address unkown Return To Sender" ;-) Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST,Bagpuss (at work) Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:34 AM It's blatantly obvious that the hoaxes (if not the few real anthrax cases) have been done by the people who manufacture the antibiotics. Well they certainly have the most to gain from this sort of panic.... Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:50 AM Wolfgang, My postings are intended to be ironic, to call attention to the fact that REAL news isn't being reported. As to a grip on the facts--well, the closure of the US Congress by House Speaker Hastert yesterday shows he believes every little urban legend floating in through his office door. He claimed anthrax had been found in the building ventilation system, even though it hadn't. Shutting down Congress was done by a highly partisan Republican House Speaker the same day the President left the country. No Congressional business will now be completed until the President returns from Asia on Monday. Coincidence? I don't think so. The Bush administration senior staff, most of whom are accompanying the prez to Asia, are paranoid as hell as to what might happen in their absence, and that someone else might come to control THEIR news/news cycle. The Bush administration OWNS the airwaves right now. Also, I'm sure they don't trust Cheney. Also, I'm sure they didn't want any Democratic tinkering with the anti-terrorism legislation currently being debated in Congress. If they are going to be able to wage covert war against their own citizenry legally, as the administration's legislation clearly intends to do, they can't afford to let that Anti-Terrorism Act float through Congress with too many amendments and committee deals. So they had Hastert shut down the government so they didn't have to rely on Cheney (the fox) to guard the henhouse (Congress) while they are trying to make China's human rights violations into saintly acts in their War on Terrorism (TM).
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: katlaughing Date: 18 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM Anyone remember the Tylenol scare with several people dying of the tainted product? I think this smacks of the same kind of sick mind, probably American, copycat. It is not beyond the scope fo the extremists like the Arayan Brotherhood, esp. when one considers their goal is to eliminate all people of colour, as well as many others opposed to their ideas of life. It's not much of a stretch to believe that, in their convoluted way, they may hope to prolong things against Arabs and make it harder for Arabs in America, as well as go after all of the liberal press and politicians. They basically consider themselves at war, anyway, within their own country and have had for quite a while. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:17 PM Or the anti-abortionists, or the survivalists, etc etc I agree kat--from the gitgo, I've felt this thing definitely smelled like American right wing fanatics of some sort, especially when you consider the Florida/National Enquirer connections. Let us not forget another Baby Bush is family dynastying down there, and then there is the Bush wing of the Wacked Media at Fox... It isn't conspiracy theorizing, its just looking at the obvious connections. I happen to think anthrax thing involves some despicable and unsavory fringe elements of Washington's political mainstream, possibly being manipulated by higher ups. Such Machiavellian drams have played themselves out many times inside the beltway, at the expense of those beyond it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: LR Mole Date: 18 Oct 01 - 12:53 PM Hmmmm...anthrax is from cows' hooves.Next scare: killer jello!Oh, no, you have to heat that.Is pitching horseshoes a terrorist plot?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Oct 01 - 02:37 PM Sorry about this, but it's 1 bacterium, many bacteria. Anthrax is a bacterium, not a bacteria. Somebody tell the media, too, please. Also, I have heard that it was "weapon-grade" because of the virulence of the particular strain, but not yet biologically engineered to be contagious, which would be really bad. I hope that somebody is going to send Cipro to Kenya for free, and anywhere else this crops up. Sorry for the profits of the drug companies and all that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:48 PM Maybe Very Important People should be expected to open their own mail and not have other people do it for them, as a form of damage limitation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: Paul from Hull Date: 18 Oct 01 - 09:51 PM *G* |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: YOR Date: 19 Oct 01 - 12:06 AM All this talk about Anthrax! And 20,000 people a year die of the flu. |
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Subject: RE: BS: The Good News About Anthrax From: GUEST,BigDaddy Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:21 AM Right on YOR! If people are going to panic over a "scare" like this, how the heck are we going to react if we have to fight an enemy with a real army and weaponry to match our own? If the media are going to apply their own "slant" to news items as they so often do, maybe they would do us all a better service by making fun of these attempted acts of terror instead of reporting how "panicked" we all are. |