 sj |
||
|
||
Help: Transposing (a music thread)
|
|
|
|||||||
|
Help: Transposing (a music thread) |
Share Thread
|
||||||
|
Subject: Transposing (a music thread) From: GUEST,BigDaddy Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:32 AM In response to "what's wrong with a music thread..." I recently found a site called "The Song Pages" at http://www.gospel.mcmail.com In addition to a great list of gospel lyrics and chords there is a handy tool for transposing chords. My question is this: Is there a more comprehensive tool somewhere out there for doing this? Or is there some sort of easy to remember rule? Some of us singers (or maybe just me) are short on theory and have to ask such questions at times. Perhaps I should start a "what you always wanted to know about music but were afraid to ask" thread. Thanks. |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: SeanM Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:35 AM I've been playing with "MusicTime" lately at a friend's house - sorry, but no idea where to get it from. It's got a GREAT tool for transposing chords, notes or pretty much anything else you'd need. Plays multiple lines simultaneously as well, and you can isolate out for solos... M |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: Gary T Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:48 AM The rule is that every chord (as well as every note) gets raised (or lowered) the same number of half steps. You need to know the chromatic scale, which is A-A#/Bb-B-C-C#/Db-D-D#/Eb-E-F-F#/Gb-G-G#/Ab-A-etc., each successive note rising one half step. From there it's simple counting. Remember when transposing that the TYPE of chord (major, minor, seventh, minor seventh, dimished, etc.) does not change, only the pitch (letter name). |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: JohnInKansas Date: 20 Oct 01 - 03:45 AM If I understand the question, it's not so much about how to "construct" a chord, as about what chord replaces which when you change a song from one key to another. (transposing) A song in the key of C, no sharps or flats, might typically use F, C, and G chords. To change the song to the key of G, one sharp: F chords are replaced by C, C chords are replaced by G, and G chords are replaced by A, giving C, G, and A chords. All you really need to know is that, if the "key" changes by some number of sharps (or flats), then every chord in the song changes by the same number of sharps (or flats). While the "standard" reference for this is to the "circle of fifths," or if you're left handed to the "circle of fourths," all you really need to know is what order the "keys" come up when you add more sharps or flats. It's pretty easy to remember that the key of C, and a C chord, has no sharps or flats. The mnemonic (absurd word) for sharps is: Go Down And Eat Breakfast. One sharp - key of G, or G chord Two sharps - key of D, or D chord Three sharps - key of A, or A chord Four sharps - key of E, or E chord Five Sharps - key of B, or B chord For flats, remeber: Fat Boys Eat Apple Dumplings. One flat - key of F, or F chord Two flats - key of Bb, or Bb chord Three flats - key of Eb, or Eb chord Four flats - key of Ab, or Ab chord Five flats - key of Db, or Db chord If you can remember the order of the "keys," you can make a list that looks like:
Now if you find your starting key in the list - say it's Bb, and you want to go to another key such as G, you count how many steps between the two keys. In this case its 3 steps to the right. Now if you find a chord, such as Eb in the original key, you know that you go the same number of steps - in the same direction - and find that in the new (G) key, the correct chord is a C. The order of things given in the little list applies to a lot of stuff. Only the starting point changes, depending on what you are doing. As an example, the first sharp added is F#, the second is C#, the third is G#, etc. The first flat added is Bb, the second is Eb, the third is Ab, etc. Go Down And Eat Breakfast, and Fat Boys Eat Apple Dumplings - silly but useful. All you have to do is supply the C in the middle, and remember that the "flat" side gets the "flats" on the key names. (Think about the fat boys get the fat thingy on them, and there ain't no Fb so it's an exception. If you wrap the sequence in your little list around a circle, you get the famous "circle of fifths" that the theorists like to talk about (just so you recognize the term). Hope this helps. John |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: Cappuccino Date: 20 Oct 01 - 03:53 AM I will never forget the dawn of enlightenment when I first moved an E chord up to the second fret, and realised what it had become... and why. My respects to John and Gary, and this is a bit more simplistic.... For those who reckon the capo is a reasonable bit of equipment (and I 'm not getting sucked into * that * argument!) and haven't yet clicked to this, and I know many guitarists who have been playing for years and years without doing so, just move your first position chord shapes up, and up, count the progression of your root notes, and look at the result. Even for those who hate capos, I maintain that this helps you really understand * why * the three-chord trick in Bb becomes.... oh hell, you know what I mean!!! - Ian B |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: JohnInKansas Date: 20 Oct 01 - 04:04 AM Ian I'm with you. If you understand key changes, you shouldn't have trouble with capos, and versavisa. With a capo, it's maybe easier to think in terms of how many frets - or "half-steps" - you want to change the key by, rather than how many "keys of change" you want; but it all plays together John |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 20 Oct 01 - 04:09 AM SeanM I found a german Music Time program The translated web page says 'No Longer Available', though you can download the demo, can you read german? |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: pavane Date: 20 Oct 01 - 04:22 AM Never tried Music Time, but, as I have mentioned here before, my program HARMONY transposes tunes, as well as adding chords, playing, displaying, printing, importing and exporting MIDI and abc formats. It also creates random tunes of various styles (jig, reel, etc), and can print tablature for melodeon and anglo concertina. It can handle lyrics aligned with notes, and create Karaoke-style MIDI files with either the words or the chords displayed. You can find it Here |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: Tom French Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:32 AM Transposing Guide for 5 basic Useful Guitar Keys
I ii iii IV V vi dim I
C D E F G A B C
How to use the above: You are looking at a song in the key of E (4#'s in the music key signature or you see that the song ends on an E chord, begins on an E chord and uses an E chord oftern) Your notice that the first phrase of music uses these chords E - C#m - A - F#m7 - B7. You want to play this song in the Key of G which is better for your voice range or avoids all the difficult barre chords that you don't play well. Your look up the chart from the the E scale row to the G scale row. Now you substitute new letter names and leave the "m"'s the "7"'s and all the other stuff alone and get the following: G - Em - C - Am7 - D7.
If you run a brass band you'd be interested in the following which is the same as above but uses the useful brass band instrument keys. Note a flat = "b"
I ii iii IV V vi dim I
G A B C D E F# G
You use this one in the same way. If you play piano or any key insrtument you just put all of these scale lines together and make a massive transposing cue card. You now have all but three keys 5#s 6#s or 6bs and the six # and six b keys are exactly the same scale on the piano, the black keys along with a B and an E. They are unpopular unless you play classical music.
Remember only the letter names (the sharp in F# is part of the letter name) (the flat in Bb is part of the letter name) change when transposing a chord, so something unusual like F#mdim9sus6 in Key of G becomes Cmdim9sus6 in the key of Db. Music is very convenient that way.
Use the tables to learn your sharps and flats in the keys you play in. A key has either sharps or flats, not both, but some tunes call for occassional alterings of notes. It's useful to know how many sharps or flat are in a particular key and which of the letters are sharped or flatted.
Each major scale/key is also a relative minor scale/key. For instance look at the C scale row. Go to the sixth note, which is A. A minor is the relative minor of C major. Likewise E minor is the relative minor of G major, since E is the sixth tone on the G row. You don't want a minor key table; it's not needed. Whether you are playing in A minor or C major makes no difference; they use the same chords (ie they both use a standard F chord). If anything has to be changed the rest of the chord heiroglyfics with tell you what to do.
If you want to be good at this, get some scrap paper and practice writing out all your useful scales by memory. That way you will find out how utterly simple the process is, especially when you really only need to have a small number of them learned.
Even more useful become familiar with the popular chords of each key. Notice the Roman numerals above each chart. The I, IV, V are major chords. The ii, iii, vi, are minor chords. The vii is a diminished chord and is rarely used. When you are playing in major keys, the chords commonly used in order of expected highest usage to lowest usage are: I, V, IV, vi, ii, iii Two chord progression is I-V-I, Three chord progression is I-IV-V-I. Four chord bebop progression is I-vi-ii-V-I. Five chord progression is I-vi-IV-ii-V-I. Put this knowledge to use and you will become good at chording by ear and inventing interesting and varried logical harmonies for tunes.
In harmonizing I and vi are relatives and IV and ii are relatives. They can often be swapped in the harmonies to flavor the major bright sound with some minor dark sound and vice versa.
Make some letter charts in your favorite keys of progressions; these are far more useful than the scale order charts given. Progression Roman numerals are given above. Play these and learn to hear the sound, Make up songs using the progressions.
If you take the time to learn the basic harmony system that essentially all Western Civilization music uses, you will quickly find that you can throw away chord charts, especially those that feature 1000 different chords that are useless. You can also get rid of all the chord diagrams above basic songs for which you already know the tune. I've had at least 10 or 20 people learn to play by ear in three days. The ear leaning leaves the hand and finger technique in the dust. Many people start by playing out of a book, but then think that is the only way to do and don't generalize what they know to realize they do know the musical harmonic system of Western music. Can't emphasize enough how useful and how much fun playing chords this way can be. Try it out!
|
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: Tom French Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:32 AM Transposing Guide for 5 basic Useful Guitar Keys
I ii iii IV V vi dim I
C D E F G A B C
How to use the above: You are looking at a song in the key of E (4#'s in the music key signature or you see that the song ends on an E chord, begins on an E chord and uses an E chord oftern) Your notice that the first phrase of music uses these chords E - C#m - A - F#m7 - B7. You want to play this song in the Key of G which is better for your voice range or avoids all the difficult barre chords that you don't play well. Your look up the chart from the the E scale row to the G scale row. Now you substitute new letter names and leave the "m"'s the "7"'s and all the other stuff alone and get the following: G - Em - C - Am7 - D7.
If you run a brass band you'd be interested in the following which is the same as above but uses the useful brass band instrument keys. Note a flat = "b"
I ii iii IV V vi dim I
G A B C D E F# G
You use this one in the same way. If you play piano or any key insrtument you just put all of these scale lines together and make a massive transposing cue card. You now have all but three keys 5#s 6#s or 6bs and the six # and six b keys are exactly the same scale on the piano, the black keys along with a B and an E. They are unpopular unless you play classical music.
Remember only the letter names (the sharp in F# is part of the letter name) (the flat in Bb is part of the letter name) change when transposing a chord, so something unusual like F#mdim9sus6 in Key of G becomes Cmdim9sus6 in the key of Db. Music is very convenient that way.
Use the tables to learn your sharps and flats in the keys you play in. A key has either sharps or flats, not both, but some tunes call for occassional alterings of notes. It's useful to know how many sharps or flat are in a particular key and which of the letters are sharped or flatted.
Each major scale/key is also a relative minor scale/key. For instance look at the C scale row. Go to the sixth note, which is A. A minor is the relative minor of C major. Likewise E minor is the relative minor of G major, since E is the sixth tone on the G row. You don't want a minor key table; it's not needed. Whether you are playing in A minor or C major makes no difference; they use the same chords (ie they both use a standard F chord). If anything has to be changed the rest of the chord heiroglyfics with tell you what to do.
If you want to be good at this, get some scrap paper and practice writing out all your useful scales by memory. That way you will find out how utterly simple the process is, especially when you really only need to have a small number of them learned.
Even more useful become familiar with the popular chords of each key. Notice the Roman numerals above each chart. The I, IV, V are major chords. The ii, iii, vi, are minor chords. The vii is a diminished chord and is rarely used. When you are playing in major keys, the chords commonly used in order of expected highest usage to lowest usage are: I, V, IV, vi, ii, iii Two chord progression is I-V-I, Three chord progression is I-IV-V-I. Four chord bebop progression is I-vi-ii-V-I. Five chord progression is I-vi-IV-ii-V-I. Put this knowledge to use and you will become good at chording by ear and inventing interesting and varried logical harmonies for tunes.
In harmonizing I and vi are relatives and IV and ii are relatives. They can often be swapped in the harmonies to flavor the major bright sound with some minor dark sound and vice versa.
Make some letter charts in your favorite keys of progressions; these are far more useful than the scale order charts given. Progression Roman numerals are given above. Play these and learn to hear the sound, Make up songs using the progressions.
If you take the time to learn the basic harmony system that essentially all Western Civilization music uses, you will quickly find that you can throw away chord charts, especially those that feature 1000 different chords that are useless. You can also get rid of all the chord diagrams above basic songs for which you already know the tune. I've had at least 10 or 20 people learn to play by ear in three days. The ear leaning leaves the hand and finger technique in the dust. Many people start by playing out of a book, but then think that is the only way to do and don't generalize what they know to realize they do know the musical harmonic system of Western music. Can't emphasize enough how useful and how much fun playing chords this way can be. Try it out!
|
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: Cappuccino Date: 20 Oct 01 - 09:25 AM Thanks John, you put it better than I did, and Tom, I too learned a lot from that. I think I've said this before, but isn't it bizarre that when you learn guitar for the first time, you can't see any relativity between the fingering patterns for, say, A and E... or, more logically, you don't at first see a fingering relationship between first-position C and first-position D. Or, indeed, G and anything else on the planet. I suspect this apparently illogical set of fingerings may put many people off chords at the beginning. - Ian B |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: Mr Red Date: 20 Oct 01 - 11:50 AM Irving Berlin only ever played in the key of F#. He had a piano with a movable keyboard and made the piano sound in what ever key he wanted. A well known make/model in its day. A surrogate capo for the piano. Think of the black & white & their sequence and shift every thing up or down en block. of course the harmonies don't always look good on paper or sound the quite same. |
|
Subject: RE: Help: Transposing (a music thread) From: Roger in Sheffield Date: 20 Oct 01 - 12:00 PM Sorry Pavane I had forgotten about your program as I was trying some others when you mentioned it a while back I just downloaded it and will have ago Who is in the photo? It seems a very reasonable price, and I am guessing I have to purchase it to unlock the simple key change facility |
| Share Thread: |