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Help: repairing a harmony sovereign
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Subject: repairing a harmony sovereign From: CharlieA Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:39 AM My mother has an old HArmony Sovereign which is currently unplayable. she has recently had thoughts on repairing it. any ideas on where to go for the best servive (it is her pride and joy - she bought it with her first pay check ever!). she lives in Cornwall so not to far from there if poss. Ta Cxxx |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Mooh Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:28 AM Charlie, Cornwall where? There are many. My Sovereign is in need of a neck reset, which probably isn't worth doing, as the guitar is a plywood one and does lap style duty very well. However, if yours is a solid top model, and there are many, with otherwise decent characteristics and tone, maybe it would be worthwhile, if it needs it. You don't say what makes it unplayable, so here's a brief checklist of what to look for: Neck reset to correct the "geometry" of the guitar. Nut composition, slot depths/angles/intonation. Saddle composition/height/intonation. Fret intonation/height/material/wear/installation. Bridge security to the top. Top wood distortion. Machine head function and quality. Strap button installation. Cracks in top/back/sides/peghead/etc. Loose braces. Bridge pin security/material/etc. Any or all of these and perhaps other things may be issues affecting playability. Lesser guitars can be made great by simple attention to a setup job. By hot-rodding your guitar with some decent tuners, bone nut and saddle, fret dressing, and set-up, you can make it leagues better than it was, even new. Finish the job by treating the guitar to a new case and gigbag, strap, strings, electronic tuner, and whatever other accessories. I've noticed that these guitars have been reissued, have you played the new ones? Good luck to you and your Mom. Peace, Mooh.
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: CharlieA Date: 20 Oct 01 - 07:34 AM Don't actually play myself. It's Cornwall Uk, soz forget about that. to me there is only one Cornwall *bg*. I think the neck lifts if the strings are tightened. She wants to start playing it again. I'd love to learn but live in Coventry (UK) so am far from it. oh yeah - if any good repairers are in the midlands it's poss for me to deliver it so here too. Cxxx |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: bill\sables Date: 20 Oct 01 - 08:30 AM I bought a Harmony Sovereign new in 1962, it cost a fortune then about £47 but average wages were about £8 a week then. The guitar is a solid top made in Chicago. It sustained a few cracks over the years which I repaired but it still plays very well, indeed it has matured in colour and tone. I manageg to get another identical Harmony (same year) where the neck had lifted and so I took it to luthier Terry Docherty in Ashington, Northumberland, He fitted a block of some sort which lowered the action. It doesn't play quite as well as my origional but it sounds very good. If you would like Terry's phone number please PM me. Bill |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Mooh Date: 20 Oct 01 - 10:59 AM Charlie, The Cornwall for which all the others are named, likely. Being from Canada, I've got great respect for that. Sounds like at least part of the trouble is truss rod and/or neck set related. The Sovereign was a real sleeper of a guitar. Many are real gems, though the plywood ones like my own are of an uneven quality, but quite funky. Peace (again), Mooh.
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: sian, west wales Date: 20 Oct 01 - 02:30 PM I have a Harmony Sovereign - probably a sister guitar to Bill's in age, composition, and origin. I had mine completely set-up by a luthier in Swansea and am really pleased with the guitar. He said it was a tough little bunny, and a real struggle to get right -- but WELL worth it. In actual fact it only cost me around 80 pounds so, considering it's been in the family since the mid 60s, I'm glad to have it restored to its old glory. By the way, does it say Made in USA on the head? Anyway, get it looked at - it's well worth the trouble. sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Murray MacLeod Date: 20 Oct 01 - 06:11 PM Am I correct in remembering that all these Harmony's were ladder braced? It would be really interesting to see what they would sound like with X-bracing. I would love to get my hands on one and do the experiment. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Mooh Date: 20 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM Mine is X-braced. Others I've seen are too. Are you thinking of Stellas? Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: BanjoRay Date: 21 Oct 01 - 07:30 AM I think Phil Davidson's near Bath - a first class luthier and instrument maker. His web page is here. If he can't do it, he'll know someone who can. cheers |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: sian, west wales Date: 21 Oct 01 - 08:56 AM Mine's ladder braced. sian |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Ned Ludd Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:29 AM Most of the solid top, u.s. ones that I have worked on(if not all)have been ladder (lute) braced. This is a major cause of many of the action problems,as there is a tendency for the top to lift and the bridge to 'roll' Changing to x bracing would drastically alter the sound, why not buy an x braced guitar instead? |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: mooman Date: 22 Oct 01 - 07:26 AM Whoops-a-daisy...something went wrong there! If you're in Cornwall you could consider Chris Eccleshall not too far away in Dartington, near Totnes, Devon. A guitar maker and repairer of the first order I can vouch for personally as I own one of his instruments! Here is his website for further details if you're interested. Best regards, mooman
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Ned Ludd Date: 22 Oct 01 - 02:02 PM I'll second that. Chris Eccleshall is a good bet! |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Oct 01 - 05:10 PM This may be thread drift, but Charlie sounds like a good son. No doubt he's got a good mother. |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Murray MacLeod Date: 22 Oct 01 - 06:03 PM I asked Marc Silber about the bracing of Harmony Sovereigns, here is his reply HELLO MURRAY,
Almost ALL the Harmony Guitars made in Chicago for steel strings were ladder braced. Peace, Marc Silber. www.marcsilbermusic.com Ned, of course changing from ladder to X-bracing would drastically alter the sound, that is the whole object of the exercise. Improvement in tone would be practically guaranteed, I would wager. Murray Murray |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Ned Ludd Date: 23 Oct 01 - 04:20 AM Murray, I meant that Sov's have a unique sound which is given by the bracing. It would be more cost effective to buy one which had X bracing, rather than waste time and money altering a classic instrument,which many people love as is. |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Murray MacLeod Date: 23 Oct 01 - 05:01 AM Mmmm. I am not sure that the Harmony Sovereign qualifies as a Classic instrument Ned. Ladder bracing was never done as a conscious choice to achieve a certain tone, but rather as an aid to speed production. Ladder bracing =bargain basement IMHO. I doubt anyone would actually prefer the sound of a ladder braced guitar to an X-braced, all other things being equal. And if Harmony Sovereigns with X-bracing were readily available, I would agree with you about the waste of time and money. But I don't think they are. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Ned Ludd Date: 23 Oct 01 - 06:03 AM I personally would agree with your estimate of them Murray,but Idid once spend weeks putting one back together,for a chap who swore that they were the best. It's 'in the ear of the player' Ned. |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Mooh Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:53 AM I believe we may not all be talking about the same guitars. There were/are many vastly different Harmony Sovereign guitars, and the "Sovereign" name came to Harmony in the purchase of several lines from the Oscar Schmidt Company. Sovereigns vary considerably in quality and this is partly indicated by additional designations like "Grand Concert", "Western", various "Special" guitars, "Jumbo", "Deluxe Jumbo", "Jet Set", and even some with combinations of these names. There's even a "Dual Purpose" which was a not very successful attempt at an electrified acoustic. All of these were Sovereigns, but they might not have all been subject to export, so outside the continental US there might be fewer examples of what is common elsewhere. In my neck of the woods, Ontario Canada, there are alot of better solid top, X-braced Sovereigns and probably more of the ply top ones which are similar in appearance. I've heard they were available by mail order, perhaps Simpsons or Eatons, and through a local retailer, though I've no direct evidence of the latter. Mine came from a pawn shop in Petawawa, near the military base there, so it could have originated anywhere. As for bracing patterns, the cheaper ones (which I think was most of the production) might well have been ladder braced, which in combination with a ply body is a recipe for severe top dysfunction. The better ones, like the various solid top models and some of the ply tops built to resemble the solids, are more often X braced. The greater issue with the bracing patterns in these low market guitars is the quality of their manufacture. I've seen lifted braces and sloppy bridge plates and poorly glued kerfing in lots of them. They were solid so long as the glue and clamping procedures were properly carried out, otherwise they tend to come apart. I suspect that more of the earlier and cheaper ones were ladder braced, but that the later and maybe slightly better examples tend to X bracing. Peace, Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: GUEST,Fangio Banjo Date: 21 Nov 01 - 03:53 PM It's not "How?" It's "Why?" FB |
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Subject: I.D.ing a harmony tenor guitar From: Clinton Hammond Date: 21 Nov 01 - 04:07 PM A tangent I'm gonna drop in here... If any one has any good info on diggin up the dirt on Harmony tenor guitars, I'd be forever grateful... I have one here that so far defies identification... if I go by what one web site suggested for dating it it looks like it might be from 1902... but it sure don't look like it is! |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Art Thieme Date: 21 Nov 01 - 05:54 PM MARC SILBER, Amazing. You were one of the first ones to influence me to get into fingerpicking. You were sitting on a table in Ida Noyes Hall at the first University Of Chicago Folk Festival (1961 I think) when, I believe, you were at the University Of Michigan. You were playing and singing "San Francisco Bay Blues". I later got a tape of Jim Kweskin doing it on Ella Jenkins' radio show called the MEETING HOUSE that same year when J.K. and I were teaching guitar at The Fret Shop on 57th Street (Hyde Park--Chicago). He was teaching advanced guitar and I was teaching beginning guitar---that was my level then. For years I couldn't remember your name but heard a market report on the radio and they were talking about the price of"MARCH SILVER. It was in the 80s sometime and I instantly remembered your name---finally. Think I met you once at the old Folklore Center---years later--and never told you about this. I do hope you are well and still picking. Sorry for the thread creep, folks. I do hope this fellow is the one I'm remembering. The Harmony Sovereign was my first decent guitar. (Got it from a mailorder catalogue in 1959 after playing a $10.00 Stella. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Art Thieme Date: 21 Nov 01 - 06:01 PM Well, I posted too quickly. The message a few up from here was from Murray and not from Marc Silber---He was just quoting Marc. I feel real dumb. (so, never mind) Art |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Art Thieme Date: 21 Nov 01 - 06:25 PM THANKS for the info on M. Silber. Good site. Never knew he was in San Francisco... But there's lots I don't know! Art |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Clinton Hammond Date: 22 Nov 01 - 11:17 AM No one with Tenor guitar info? |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Rick Fielding Date: 23 Nov 01 - 12:42 AM Yup Clinton. I've seen several Harmony tenors (There's one for sale at Encore music now) but I've never seen one that was earlier than about 1945. There were many SIMILAR in style and sound from the early days but as mentioned earlier here they'd be under the "Stella" or "Regal" label. Most that I've seem are from the fifties and early sixties. For whatever reason the instrument became popular enough for them to make a bunch of them. My guess is that MANY people wanted the instrument that Nick Reynolds played in the Kingston Trio, but weren't willing to shell out three hundred bucks (at the time) for a Martin. If you look at pics and album covers of all the "Collegiate" folk groups of that time you'll find they virtually ALL had a tenor guitar in the band. If I can do this right, here's a FABULOUS website. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Rick Fielding Date: 23 Nov 01 - 12:50 AM Sorry forgot to add this: Hi Murray. Actually you'd be surprised that a few folks really DO want the "ladder braced" sound, and are willing to pay through the nose for it. They're looking for that "authentic" blind street performer sound!! I have a ladder braced Stella on the wall, but I think most self respecting street singers today would prefer a Seagull. Still cheap, tough as nails and can be used as a weapon....but they sound MUCH better! Now Harmony 12 strings are a different kettle of fish. Not bad at all. I'm not talkin' 'bout any of the new ones which are "off-shore" imports and are built quite differently Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Tweed Date: 23 Nov 01 - 08:20 AM I'd see if Mom's Sovereign could be restored to it's original condition, ladder braces or not. If she spent her entire first paycheck on it it must mean a lot to her. I saw a kid in a St. Louis blues bar who played a plywood Harmony bass. It was a low-end instrument when it was made and forty years later it was still low end, but it had the authentic "sound". My vote is to stay your course and mend it for Mum. |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: CharlieA Date: 23 Nov 01 - 09:13 AM I certainly intend too. It does mean alot to her. and she means alot to me. Cxxx |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Clinton Hammond Date: 23 Nov 01 - 10:45 AM "There's one for sale at Encore music now" How much they want for it?? |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Rick Fielding Date: 23 Nov 01 - 12:27 PM Clinton, e-mail me at rfield@interlog.com and I'll talk to ya.....there are details (possibly in your favour) that are better talked about off Mudcat...$$$ Cheers Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: Clinton Hammond Date: 23 Nov 01 - 12:47 PM o.k... email sent, but honestly I was just curious... I more than have my fill of instruemnts at this point... well... that's what HERSELF says anyway... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Help: repairing a harmony sovereign From: LesleyA Date: 23 Nov 01 - 03:26 PM Hi there people, this is the owner speaking. My DAUGHTER Charlie is a star, and she's got me all mushy now having seen what she's written but she's still not getting my harmony....seriously,the history of it is this In 1972 teachers were given a back dated payrise and my back dated pay was almost the same as a months normal pay. At the time I was playing a ..Tatra which had cost me £10 and was knackered as we say in Cornish. I was living in SE london and while shopping with a friend I stopped and drooled over guitars in a music shop. My friend who was getting bored with my drooling pushed me in and the rest is history. I spent most of my payrise on the guitar, £42 and played it and loved it for years. The tone is wonderful, it has a great depth to the sound, but the neck comes away from the body now if it's tightened. I'm not sure of the bracing, I'll have to look at it. Anyway I put it out to pasture and as I was using it in schools got a pretty reasonable Yamaha which has a good high tone to get over the top of 300 children singing. Now Charlie can borrow THAT when she has somewhere to put it.. (don't get too excited daugter.) Thanks everyone for your advice, but especially to those of you like me who love the Harmony sovereign like a child. Lesley |
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