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Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.

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GutBucketeer 23 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM
Bill D 23 Oct 01 - 07:44 PM
Jeri 23 Oct 01 - 08:54 PM
GutBucketeer 23 Oct 01 - 09:41 PM
Jeri 23 Oct 01 - 10:03 PM
kendall 23 Oct 01 - 10:22 PM
catspaw49 23 Oct 01 - 11:46 PM
GutBucketeer 23 Oct 01 - 11:56 PM
Rick Fielding 24 Oct 01 - 02:22 AM
catspaw49 24 Oct 01 - 02:36 AM
DeanC 24 Oct 01 - 10:17 AM
GUEST,kendall 24 Oct 01 - 11:04 AM
lamarca 24 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM
Jeri 24 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM
MMario 24 Oct 01 - 11:21 AM
Allan C. 24 Oct 01 - 12:04 PM
catspaw49 24 Oct 01 - 12:14 PM
lamarca 24 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM
Charlie Baum 24 Oct 01 - 02:17 PM
Jeri 24 Oct 01 - 02:19 PM
Fortunato 24 Oct 01 - 02:57 PM
SINSULL 24 Oct 01 - 03:33 PM
Ferrara 24 Oct 01 - 03:35 PM
MMario 24 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM
catspaw49 24 Oct 01 - 04:08 PM
Rick Fielding 24 Oct 01 - 05:54 PM
GutBucketeer 24 Oct 01 - 07:02 PM
Jeri 24 Oct 01 - 07:36 PM
catspaw49 24 Oct 01 - 07:49 PM
SINSULL 24 Oct 01 - 08:31 PM
Jon Freeman 24 Oct 01 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,Lorraine 24 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM
kendall 24 Oct 01 - 09:30 PM
Charlie Baum 24 Oct 01 - 09:34 PM
Jeri 24 Oct 01 - 09:42 PM
Jeri 24 Oct 01 - 09:58 PM
Charlie Baum 24 Oct 01 - 10:04 PM
Jon Freeman 25 Oct 01 - 12:01 AM
Sandy Paton 25 Oct 01 - 12:54 AM
GutBucketeer 25 Oct 01 - 01:14 AM
DeanC 25 Oct 01 - 09:42 AM
Knitpick 25 Oct 01 - 10:24 AM
harpgirl 25 Oct 01 - 10:50 AM
Jeri 25 Oct 01 - 10:53 AM
MMario 25 Oct 01 - 11:10 AM
Rick Fielding 25 Oct 01 - 11:20 AM
Big Mick 25 Oct 01 - 11:39 AM
MMario 25 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM
GutBucketeer 25 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM
Jeri 25 Oct 01 - 12:36 PM
Charlie Baum 25 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM
Ferrara 25 Oct 01 - 03:25 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 25 Oct 01 - 04:42 PM
Jeri 25 Oct 01 - 05:05 PM
Jeri 25 Oct 01 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Bruce O. 25 Oct 01 - 06:13 PM
MMario 25 Oct 01 - 06:15 PM
Jeri 25 Oct 01 - 06:46 PM
Bill D 25 Oct 01 - 08:54 PM
Tinker 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 PM
Allan C. 25 Oct 01 - 10:51 PM
Jeri 25 Oct 01 - 11:06 PM
Allan C. 25 Oct 01 - 11:41 PM
Nancy King 26 Oct 01 - 12:59 AM
DeanC 26 Oct 01 - 10:41 AM
MMario 26 Oct 01 - 10:46 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 26 Oct 01 - 11:44 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 26 Oct 01 - 11:46 AM
Jeri 26 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM
Bill D 26 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM
Allan C. 26 Oct 01 - 01:14 PM
GutBucketeer 26 Oct 01 - 01:43 PM
Jon Freeman 26 Oct 01 - 05:01 PM
Tinker 26 Oct 01 - 09:48 PM
Bill D 26 Oct 01 - 10:06 PM
marty D 26 Oct 01 - 10:22 PM
CarolC 26 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM
Rick Fielding 28 Oct 01 - 10:23 AM
Big Mick 28 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM
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Subject: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM

I'm starting this thread because I don't want the Getaway Memory thread to be diverted by what I feel is a very worthy and important discussion.

Mudcat and FSGW and other real world organizations or gatherings are different things. One is virtual, somewhat anonymous, and basically egalitarian. The other is part of the real world, sing and play together, share experiences.... bond.... and maybe most important passing on the traditions from masters to apprentices. I'm sure there are similar communities in other parts of the world / USA.

Mudcat is good for FSGW and FSGW is good for Mudcat.

I had been a FSGW member for several years before I became involved in the Mudcat. I went to an occasional concert and/or the Folk and minifest. I always felt that somehow I was invading some private family gathering, and that at some point those there had stopped focusing on today and the future and started reminiscing about the halcyon days of the folk revival. The circle just seemed to be getting smaller and smaller. I also got extremely tired of debates on the "right" version of a song, or it was this way when I heard the original collector sing it, or sitting through the full 40 verses of an obscure ballad sung acappella. I looked elsewhere for my companionship in folk music (the web, the Capital Area Autoharpers, local jams) and had the feeling that the FSGW was a stand offish group that really did not want new members (Note, that I now know that this couldn't be further from the truth!, but it was what I felt at the time). I was intimidated.

This not just an FSGW phenomenae, but I have seen it elsewhere across the country with folk music in general and any other long term organization. Every organization needs a well spring or source of new members, ideas, and enthusiasm. One of these sources for the FSGW is the Mudcat. Through the Mudcat, I got to know other area members and found out that they were really a great group of helpful and encouraging folks. I started to go to their monthly sings and am now starting to volunteer for stuff. Of course, my interests, background, and knowledge are not the same as those that have been in the Folk community and with FSGW since the 1960s. And as I and others become regulars the FSGW will change.

THIS IS GOOD !

On the other hand Mudcat is a virtual world. Through it you can tap into the largest folk knowledge base ever assembled! Yet, people often don't act like people in the threads. You, don't bond the same way. There is no apprenticeship. Often, people just fade away. What has happened to Folk1234, Moon Jen, and others that were regulars of the past. FSGW and other groups provide the places and events where we can become "real" to one another. AND MOST IMPORTANT FOR A MUSIC GROUP WHERE WE CAN SHARE OUR MUSIC WITH OTHERS. Mudcat only offers the introduction and invitation to the ball. It is a communication channel. Never forget,however, that FSGW provides the Ball!

THIS IS GOOD !

Are they different. They shouldn't be. I really saw no differences at the Getaway except maybe where we bunked. They are both extensions of the Folk Community. Also, as time goes on and both evolve the distinction may fade away.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents

JAB


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 07:44 PM

funny, Jim...I walked into FSGW years ago and stuck my nose into everything I could...and the 1st Getaway I went to, I was on the planning committee...and by my 2nd Getaway I was co-chair!...Sure, any time you enter ANY group you will find clots of people who know each other and hang out together a lot..(is that what a 'clique' is?)

But FSGW, just like Mudcat, is easy to crash...just like music, DO music, talk about it ...and try not to be a total dork *wink*..(that's a BIG *wink* and *grin*)

Mixing into new group configurations is always fraught with perils, and this 'virtual community' thing is pretty new, with only partially formed traditions so far.

I do know that as people move and grow older, FSGW,even though it has a lot of 'members', has a much smaller 'core group' than it used to, and the Getaway has been hard pressed to stay near the critical mass needed to make such a gathering work, and frankly, in my opinion, Mudcat and new faces..(and their $$$$) have been the salvation of the Getaway!..Sure, it could limp along for years, but folkies are sorta outnumbered in this world, and we need all the contacts and cross-pollenization we can muster.

I have no idea what the relationship between FSGW and Mudcat and other folkie groups will be in 5-10 years, but I have heard some VERY interesting ideas...I look forward to the debate/discussion.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 08:54 PM

The bottom line is we are all people who like folk music, and we have different friends within that community, but we're open to meeting new folks.

It's funny - I was a member of FSGW for three years before Mudcat existed. I went to open sings, concerts and a couple of festivals. I felt like it was very hard to get to know people, and never felt like I fit in. I knew about the Getaway, but didn't feel comfortable going. I felt like I'd be a stranger among people who all knew each other. Many people I remember from the sings didn't recognise me when I went to the first Getaway.

Now, I feel much more like a member of FSGW than when I belonged to it. The difference, I believe, is that maybe I'm a bit more confident - a bit more willing to stick my neck out and talk to, or make music, with people I don't know. I sure can't believe all those other folks got more friendly.

When I was at the Getaway, I didn't think about the person sitting next to me as being from one group or the other. I don't think many of those I played or sang with, or just talked to, looked at it from an "us vs. them" perspective, and I'm sorry if some folks still see things that way. If FSGW members want to feel a group identity and be proud - PLEASE DO! You've got a lot to be proud of. One of those things is that because of the friendliness of most members, I spent the whole weekend feeling like I was part of one big group and NOT feeling like part of an invading horde. I'd really prefer to keep it that way.

Thank you, to all who worked to make the Getaway happened, and who everyone I spoke, played, or sang with. For me, this past weekend was as good as it gets.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 09:41 PM

I second what Jeri said.

I am sure I have changed over the years. Sometimes I kick myself when I realize what I have missed by waiting for an invatation and not just jumping in. I guess I lost my inhibitions when I got my grey hair :-).

Anyway, as I said before It seemed like one big happy family to me. I just wish I could have stayed for Sunday Night.

JAB


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:03 PM

Jim, I wonder how many people thought I was stand-offish back then because I was a bit too timid to go up and say 'Hi'. It's those assumptions that make social life more unpleasant than it should be, whether it's on the internet or in person...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: kendall
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 10:22 PM

As far as I'm concerned we are all one big happy family, and, I embrace everyone of you as a good friend no matter the group to which you belong, or dont.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:46 PM

Don't get weird on me Kendall..........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 23 Oct 01 - 11:56 PM

Jeri: I wonder the same thing about myself, but it is their problem. It's like my singing and playing. I still am not sure if I'm good or bad. I just know that I can't do anything else, and I hope I am good enough that it is enjoyable for others. I promise you, that you are beyond good. But, I bet that if you are like me that no matter how many times you hear it, there is still this little doubt in the back of your mind.

In the South that my mother grew up in (really West Texas) it was the host's responsibility to make sure everyone was part of what was going on and feeling connected. Even now, sometimes I just watch in amazement when during a party, wedding, or other event hosted by a Southerner. It is truly an art to weave through the crowd drawing shy folks into a conversation here, introducing two people that they think will get along there, drawing out strangers. We lost something in our new modern world.

So don't worry about what is the past. You certainly are not that way now !

JAB


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:22 AM

Having been, over the years, to other gatherings that were similar in nature to the wonderful Getaway, I'll throw out a few thoughts.

Lotsa space: This is Crucial. Without it you might have one big song circle with Ballad folk, Country players, Bluesers, Old Tymers etc. and the music tends to not satisfy as much as when you can 'get in a groove' with one style. At the gettaway there is room for several smaller gatherings, each one focused on a (vaguely) specific type of music. More fun that way I think. many of us jumped around from group to group and then tried to adapt to the 'dynamic'.

I've been places where folks complain the next morning that their group was 'hijacked' by some other form of music. That may sound trivial to some, but I understand what they mean. Take ballads....you get used to the 'story' mood, and if someone jumps in with an up-tempo Hank Williams tune it can be distracting. Having the space for each little group really allows people to get into their favourite 'groove'.

Even after all these years, I'm still pretty shy around strangers, so I know I simply HAVE to make an effort to go up to them and say "hi". It really manifests itself when you're lookin' for a spot to sit for mealtime. It's not the easiest thing to plunk yourself down 'mongst a group that seem to know each other really well....but when you do....you've just made some new friends, and boy, that's worth it.

I found the Getaway folks very welcoming, friends and strangers alike.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:36 AM

Okay, now that all the serious huggy stuff has been passed here, I'd like to talk about my 3D Organ............Of course mine isn't a 3D but if you'll tell me your sizing chart, perhaps I can adapt.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: DeanC
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:17 AM

Well, since I started this discussion over on the Getaway thread, I suppose I should say something here. For many years I was also one of those FSGW members who went to things (concerts, festivals, getaways) but didn't really feel part of the organization. The people who were running things could be intimidating. I gradually started doing a few things for the Getaway and as a result was asked (by Nancy King) to work on the Washington Folk Festival. I began to meet the people who were at the core of FSGW. Things got ridiculous after that. I chaired a number of Getaways, was a coordinator of the Washington Folk Festival for a total of nine years, and a president of FSGW for four years. All of that was greatly rewarding partly because of the feeling of accomplishment but mostly for the people I met and worked with.

As a result I have become pretty familiar with the problems of FSGW. One of the big ones is that feeling that Jeri and GutBucketeer mentioned that there is an inside group that is impenetrable. I had it, too, but note that that very group pulled me into it. It is true that people who work together a lot tend to party together a lot also. That's part of the fun. But the core is not as exclusive as people percieve it to be. Actually its pretty friendly.

BillD is correct that Mudcat has to a degree saved the Getaway by bringing new faces to the gathering. We definitely need the bodies and their money to continue doing it. If you are also interested in helping with the planning, I can assure that your help will be appreciated.

Now, as to the separateness of Mudcatters from FSGW'ers - I don't want to make too big a thing of this. I merely noticed that in a few ways during the evening concerts and at some of the workshops much was made of peoples Mudcat identity. Maybe we don't need to play that up so much. I just feel like doing it sort of leaves the non-Mudcatters feeling like they "weren't in on the joke." This is not a big deal and can be one of the little tweaks that is always given to the Getaway from year to year.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:04 AM

I'll bet that every one of us has, in the past, felt like a wet dog at a wedding. Out of place, not fitting in. Maybe it's because we are a little out of the main stream to begin with? I mean, normal people dont do folk music, do they? I used to think I'd fit in only on the Island of mis fit toys.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: lamarca
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM

Well, since I was the one kvetching on the other thread, I'll put my nickel in (but there's a $5 fine for whining...)

The "inner core" of the FSGW IS hard to crack. What many of the people who are "in" have in common, though, is that we are the folks who jump in do do the volunteer work to make the organization run. The FSGW was founded by a group of friends in the 60's. I didn't come along until the 80's, by which time I had missed a lot of shared experiences. I was just starting to sing, and felt shy and inadequate about my musical abilities. But I could set up chairs, fold newsletters, set up festival stages, etc, just fine! As soon as I started to join in to do some of the work, as opposed to just attending gatherings, hanging around on the outside and hoping someone would notice me, I got sucked in and joined the crew.

I think a lot of organizations are like that - the "insiders" tend to give more of themselves to the group, and get more back as a result. Even those of us slackers who have STOPPED doing the grunt work get to rest on our laurels in the social aspects of the group.

This is one difference between the newer Mudcat folks and the FSGW crowd. The Catters have mostly bonded through 'virtual' experiences, with occasional 'real-life' interactions. If more 'Catters start working with local folkies here, the divisions will be less obvious. But as long as folks here talk about "the Mudcat jam" when referring to a late night sing as though it were an exclusive group, as long as people are housed together in "Mudcat cabins", as long as people are introduced by their affiliation or lack of it with the Mudcat, there will be a sense of "otherness" about the group that is just as hard to crack as the FSGW core group.

For folkies who have no desire to join an internet chat group, there IS no other way to become part of the Mudcat community. It's not like being able to help out on a concert, or coming to sing a song at a monthly swap. A lot of folkies are Luddites at heart, and the thought of spending lots of time on-line instead of gathering with real people and making music together just doesn't seem very appealing. It doesn't help for folks like Charlie Baum to deny that any separation exists because there are FSGW members who are also Mudcatters- I have a foot in both worlds, yes, but I've stopped contributing to Mudcat because I'd rather spend my time reading and making music than wading through the constant flow of correspondance that binds people together on the Cat.

I'm asking that the Catters who come to the Getaway recognize that there are neat singers and musicians there who you haven't traded fart jokes with on the computer, share a song or a tune with someone who isn't wearing a Mudcat button or T-shirt, and let the folks here on line know about some of the people you met who don't have a "handle". I know that many folks have done that on the Memories thread; I'd just like to encourage a bit more self-awareness about how "insider" groups go both ways...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:11 AM

Spaw, I was waiting for that.

On a serious note, if there were people amongst the hosting FSGWers who felt the Mudcat folks were being snobby, stand-offish, or unfriendly in some way, I'd love to hear about their experiences. Not necessarily vague impressions, but what actually happened to make them feel that way.

There were some FSGW members who never seemed to speak to people outside a small group of friends. They didn't really talk to me when I was in the FSGW, either. I figure they're in their comfort zone, but not snobs. Although if that were true, they'd probably be happy if Mudcatters didn't approach them.

So I'm still left wondering what, if anything, actually happened to those people who felt shut out to make them feel shut out. I'm wondering if it's a whole bunch of people or just a couple. If it's a whole group of folks, perhaps we could do something in general, although I have no idea specifially what. Got ideas? I can't see any way that people involved in any of the jams could feel snubbed, anyway. If it's just several folks, it may just be an individual personality issue, and there's not much we can do about that short of singling them out to be nice to. Mind you, I wouldn't have a problem with that, but they might.

My e-mail address is on the Directory of Registrants. I notice that most of the other registrants have e-mail addresses listed. I respect honesty, I'll 'listen', and I'll keep it private.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:21 AM

Dean - I thought as well that perhaps too much was made of which people were mudcats and which not at various times; It certainly didn't bother me, but I can see where it might bother an FSGW member.

I have been at other functions where there were multiple organizations and this kind of thing always seems to be a problem - but no matter what is done, someone is unhappy - because there will always be some people who want to KNOW and be ABLE to differentiate between the members of the various groups - and those who find it irritating and distracting.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Allan C.
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:04 PM

Frankly, I could see no reason for introducing people at the open-mike as to whether they were FSGW or 'Catters. The FSGW folks all seem to know one another and the 'Catters seem to know one another as well. It really didn't amount to a hill of beans to me one way or another. I didn't hear any thunderous applause from either group whenever their group's name was mentioned - the way it would be if, say, you had two opposing football teams in the same room. So, it seemed as though it didn't mean a hill of beans to anyone else.

I fully agree that the segregated housing seemed to reinforce the divisions. Such segregation may have been a good idea when the Mudcat contingent was brand new to the gathering; but now it really is superfluous to continue it. As mentioned above, most of the Mudcats know one another by name or at least through pictures we have seen.

The so-called late-night Mudcat session in cabin #10 was not exclusive in any way. Anyone at all would have been welcome there. In fact, I was rather disappointed that (as far as I know) it was the ONLY session in any of the cabins. Everyone else seemed to insist upon trying to have their sessions in the dining hall. This meant that there was quite a bit of overlap of sound which, in some instances, resulted in a marginally unpleasant cacaphony. If more of those sessions had been in the cabins, it would have been much nicer all around. (IMHO)

I guess what I am saying, and what has been said by others here and on the "memories" thread is that there were things that were done to reinforce the divisions which could easily be eliminated or at least reduced in future years.

As I see it, on one weekend of each year, a bunch of like-minded folks gather at Camp Ramblewood. Nothing more; nothing less. I enjoyed getting to know many of them. I hope to meet more in the future.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:14 PM

I have no say in this actually, but I'll take one anyway.

It's obvious even from an on-line perspective that the FSGW does have an inner core and it's equally true that Mudcat has the same. It's not really a "clique" in the classic sense of the word, but more a group you can generally count on to be active and there who have also become friends, whether "virtual" or "real." Happens in damn near all groups of any sort that I've ever known. It's a non-issue if people can crack the group and in both of the above cases, they can. There is probably about 60-70 or so 'Catters who are more active in both answering requests AND chatting to one degree or another.

As to the "separation" of FSGW and Mudcat........A certain amount of that IS inevitable too. It doesn't mean that either group is exclusive of the other, but simply that people tend to operate within their own comfort levels and the relationships built here are an easy in compared to meeting an entirely new group of people.

That said, no matter what the reality, there are those in any kind of mixture like this that will feel snubbed whether this actually happened or not. Sometimes it's just a "feeling." How are you supposed to fix that? You aren't going to fix it......ever.

To me the best thing to come out of this particular discussion is that I feel justified in saying that should the 'Cat be able to pull off a ten year anniversary party, it should not be affiliated with the Getaway as I said on that thread. I know it would work out for many, but for many others it would simply be a source of hard feelings............and not worth the risk.

Just an opinion.......

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: lamarca
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM

Spaw, you have a say - I'm just surprised it's so thoughtful and not invoking TNYCFTS (or whatever that acronym is...LOL)

I came up with an analogy I liked in a note to Jeri:

The Getaway was sortof like one of those parties that couples or housemates sometimes give, where they invite everyone they know from their different workplaces, their church, their bowling league, their theater group. Even though everyone's pretty nice and they all know the hosts, pretty soon there are small clusters of people in the kitchen and the TV room and standing awkwardly in the living room, talking to the folks they know. It takes a really skilled people person to get the groups to mix and mingle happily, something which most of us inadequately socialized folkies are not particularly adept at.

I'm not trying to say folks were out-and-out rude; I just wanted to raise the level of consciousness about the issues involved. That done, I think that the Mudcatters ought to explore renting a camp in a centralish location (in the US?)and throwing our own big blowout weekend for the 10th!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:17 PM

I think that many Mudcatters have gotten used to coming to the Getaway by now, and maybe it's now time to start treating them as individual friends instead of as a group. (After all, out-of-town friends have been coming to the Getaways since long before the invention of personal computers. ) Instead of a "Mudcatville" cabin, we may just have a "jam all night" cabin (isolated, to the great relief of people who were stuck trying to sleep near all that noise).

To further complicate matters, we ought to be inviting people from other folk societies around the country (and the world). Those of you living about the country who make music with friends in your localities--tell them about this weekend, whether they're Mudcatters or not. Computer literacy, a Mudcat handle, or a willingness to participate in this electronic forum are not prerequisites; only a love of the music (or of a weekend where this music is central) is.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:19 PM

As far as the cabin goes, is it not normal for people to select who they sleep with? Many of the Mudcat folks are close friends and some feel like family to me. I'm more than happy to put on a social face when I'm somewhere besides 'home', but I'd rather not have to feel sociable where I sleep.

I do think we need to quit stressing our Mudcat connection, though. I don't think we need to avoid all mention of it. Maybe if we just adopt an attitude of "I am an individual at the Getaway" instead of "I am a Mudcatter at the Getaway." Maybe we individuals are on Mudcat, maybe we're FSGW members, maybe we're guests. References to Mudcat membership sometimes felt like "he/she/I is/am one of THEM." I've been coming for 3 years now, and I don't want to be "them" - I want to be "us." Thank goodness, nobody seemed to ever TREAT me like one of "them" after the first year, and the first year "them" was seen as a bunch of friendly others. At least that's how I felt.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Fortunato
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 02:57 PM

I have been a FSGW member and occasional worker (mostly the Washington Folk Festival) since about 1977. I have been posting most days on the Mudcat for just over two years.

I just walked up and said, Hi, I'm Chance or Fortunato to lots of people this past weekend. Several people I had just met, Dick Swain and Rick Fielding, Jed Marum for example just walked up and sat in with Susette and I.

But Friends not everybody is unshy or gregarious enough to just approach a stranger, or someone not well known and said Hi or do Ya'll know "Move it on Over.

I never attribute to clannishness what can be explained by self-absorption (me sometimes) or shyness or introversion (me never!)

By the way, some of us opt each year not to go to the Saturday concert. Susette and I were torn. We had written a comedy sketch and readied a song for the concert, but our oldest jamming buddies prevailed on us and we were in the TV room all night long just like last year. Not because we want to be apart from FSGWers or Catters, but because it's our annual time to play music together. Regards, Chance


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:33 PM

I must have missed something. I found myself sharing tunes and songs with everyone. But I will admit that I met most of these people through the kids who were running around. Befriend a child and within an hour Mom visits. Already have a date with a young man and his mother for the Scary Story Workshop next year - he missed "Mrs. Ravoon" and was too shy to ask Kendall to sing it Sunday night.
I don't think I worked particularly hard at chatting with "strangers", just asked questions when I was genuinely interested and made friends. Two FSGW members have my name and email. They have lyrics and leads to some recordings I need.
I had only one minor incident but it raised a red flag: I approached a man named Bruce and asked if he were BruceO explaining that BruceO used to post on Mudcat but now I know him only through his webpage. The icy reply I received was "I don't OWN a computer." A woman nearby sniggered. I smiled and said "Well, when you get one, come visit me at Mudcat." and walked away. That small group obviously resented Mudcat but I did not see them taking part in much but their own private exchanges. I was offended but also confused - isn't BruceO a known entity at FSGW? Part of the inner clique, she asks facetiously? Maybe they actually resented his inner clique status, not Mudcat.
I never ate a meal alone - lunch almost always with non-'Catters. Lots of interest and amusement at how we all came together.Commiseration over the dreadful burgers; Thrills over the salad bar.

I guess the final test of whether or not there is a "problem" is whether or not you'll be returning next year...I will. And so will Spaw and Karen!!!!! Damn it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Ferrara
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 03:35 PM

Too many thoughts going through my head at once....

I have been thinking I'd like to see us do away with the "Mudcat Cabin" label. We have room (I think) on the application for people to state which friends they'd like to share a cabin with. I've made a lot of friends through the years just by sharing a cabin. Maybe if there is just a bit more mixing people up in the cabins?

I love the idea of an "All-night jams" cabin, too.

I'm wondering: One important thing for Mudcatters is to be able to put together a face and a Mudcat name. How about if we had a volunteer, a member of Mudcat, who would put together a set of name buttons that just contain people's on-line Mudcat name? (And a catfish?....) Instead of including them on the Getaway buttons, or commenting on Mudcat membership during the concerts?

The Saturday "Who are all these people?" workshop, which I have referred to in the photos as "Musical Meet-n-Greet," was deliberately set up to spotlight people who have found the Getaway through Mudcat, AND people who have a history with the Getaway and had already been coming for years before Mudcat existed. Mick and I co-led it, and took turns picking out people to introduce to the group. I heard from a number of people that it worked very well.

I did have to explain a couple of Mudcat jokes though, since half the group was ROFL and the other half were sitting there looking puzzled.

But, look -- that's all it took. Realizing that a lot of people weren't in on the joke, and quickly explaining it. It just takes a few minutes thought sometimes and a little extra effort.

Jeri and Jim B -- I believe FSGW, at least the parts I inhabit, has changed a lot since earlier times. I used to be fairly appalled at how little attention visitors or new people got unless they were good musicians. (I'm happy to say that people still come up to me and tell me that I made them welcome on their first visit to an Open Sing, etc.)

Dean, LaMarca and Jim, I'm very glad you brought up the subject and started this thread; this seems to me to be a fruitful, and thoughtful, discussion.

Rita


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM

It is a nice conversation - and the tenor of the conversation as I see it is that the FSGW seems to be doing a really great job lately of making non-members feel at home - but may be alienating some of it's members - and/or the "guests" may be inadvertantly doing so.

BTW - BruceO introduced himself to me (!) I can't say for certain that he came up to the barn for that purpose - but he came in - introduced himself - stayed for one or two songs and disappeared.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 04:08 PM

Mary, I do have a few differing sides to my personality and the Docs are still trying to figure out how and when each one emerges.....the meds don't seem to help.

I really value this thread too Rita. It has all the personality characteristics we all share and hate to admit. The reality of being Homo sapiens is that we are 98% alike and yet focus on the 2% which make us different....something that is not true in other species. It's the reason we have so many sexual problems that don't seem to plague dogs or horses......mules are probably a little screwed up.

It is inevitable that social problems are going to occur because we all share the herd instinct and yet the thinking part of us wants to be one big, happy family....at least some of the time. So one person is offended, another is not, another doesn't notice. It's all a part of the game and no engineering on our part will fix everyone in each instance. The FSGW and 'Catter mix is doing quite well and with increased numbers the likelihood of negative as well as positive interaction between groups and individuals will increase. We can all be aware of the problem and that by itself should be enough. Trying to work in other plans to force better relations are foredoomed to failure.

We have all had the experience of introducing one friend ot another and trying to get a friendship going between them......and it don't work now do it? Sometimes the magic is there and sometimes it's not. I think the Getaway is a wonderful example of perhaps the best we can expect and to try to throw in things to force unity is a wasted and possibly dangerous effort. Y'all are doing well....everyone......a few will be less that happy....let it alone. I can see the Getaway only becoming better as more people from both groups see each other more often.

However, and with all of that in mind, sharing an anniversary could and would work with the FSGW folks as long as each "group" was aware of a couple of things. For 'Catters it would be important to try to be as thanking and friendly to the FSGW'ers as possible and other things to be less 'Catter elitist, or whatever. The FSGW people will have to allow that a 10 year WorldWide Gathering would probably make that ONE Getaway a little different that others and not to expect the same things. By that point too, there should be a history of decent relations on a smaller scale like this year. If we could all simply agree to that and not allow hurt feelings to get in the way on this one occasion, it'd be great!

Can that happen? I'm skeptical but hopeful based on what I read here.......Could work. Could be a disaster. One way or another, a lot of things like that would have to be implicit.

Just an opinion......again........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 05:54 PM

I didn't even KNOW there was a Mudcat Cabin until I saw Kendall a bit the worse for wear at the workshop the next morning! Planned on visiting it the second night but I got waylayed by a couple of great jams on the way.

Sinsull, that was too bad the "Bruce" guy jumped on you for an innocent question. Manners, sadly, aren't manditory. Actually, I got a chance to talk to Bruce O a couple of times at the Traditional workshops up in the "white" house. He seemed to be enjoying himself. I didn't notice any divisions, but maybe I just missed them. Sure had fun though.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:02 PM

I think FSGW has changed of late, partly because I'm seeiing new faces. I also want to emphasize that my feelings were just that - feelings and perceptions. They may have reflected a real situation or they may have not.

Here is an idea for next year's Getaway. Rather than have people list names (or maybe in addition to) why not have them list sleeping preferences, musical styles, and/or late night expectations. We could have an all night jamming cabin, maybe an old time or singing cabin, a celtic group, etc. etc. etc.. Heck we could even have a SNORING CABIN!

Also if there were people that wanted to go to bed early they could be put together, recognizing that they would be welcome in the cabins that were making music at any time.

JAB


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:36 PM

Jim, I'm fairly sure my perceptions were mainly based on the lack of confidence that I mentioned. Jeri didn't want to bother people who didn't want to be bothered. Jeri figured THEY'D make the first move if they really wanted to know me. Jeri didn't have enough confidence to walk up and initiate a conversation. Just maybe, nobody noticed anything wrong because Jeri just gave up without a word.

Mind you, I had fun at the sings, and everyone was supportive. It was just getting beyond politeness to friendship I never managed.

I still think we ought to be able to sleep with folks we prefer to sleep with...don't know if that sounded exactly right. I don't think sleeping and socialising should be handled the same way. I'll bet there are FSGW members who ask to be put with the same people every year. It doesn't necessarily have to be a cabin full of nothing but Mudcatters. Sorry, but after years of randomly assigned roommates in the Air Force, including one 4-week stint sleeping in a warehouse with a few hundred other people I didn't know, I feel very strongly about this. If I don't have a choice, I'll bring a tent.

Of course, I don't know that anyone actually had a problem with the sleeping arrangements. I haven't heard any complaints about the jam, but nobody who wasn't sleeping there even looked in. When I went back to the cabin, most folks were toddling off to sleep, anyway. I wasn't aware the noise bothered anyone - no one said a word about it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 07:49 PM

Jim, I may be the class buffoon, but re-read what I said.....and it's a subject I DO know something about......Quit engineering it! It only gets worse.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: SINSULL
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:31 PM

Rick - Thanks. Yes, too bad but not important in the grand scale of things. My Getaway highlights will come Sunday after I get some sleep.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:43 PM

I'm glad I read this thread, not for the main debate but because it has brought home to me that I never would survive the Getaway or similar events. I just can't handle set times for this and that or the community sleeping. Which leads me to a question to Jeri as she said it was important to her:

How would you choose who you share a cabin with? To me, if I had to do it, I really couldn't care less whether I was with people I knew or not - the big thing to me would be being with a crowd that would party (musically) till at least 4 am, if smoking is allowed in any, would wish to be a in a smoker... 11:30pm and lights out.. would kill me. Is there ever any segregation based on those sort of factors?

As for the main point of the thread, while I am inclined to agree with the viewpoint that some feelings of segregation are unaviodable, and I have no experience of this event (which appears to have gone well oveall), I do feel that the attitude "I have an intreset in folk music and got to know about this/someone else through Mudcat" is rather more healthy than "I am Mudcatter".

Jon


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GUEST,Lorraine
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM

I am kind of shy. Probably consider myself a FSGW person not really much of a mudcatter- don't follow the BS threads usually and drop out for months at a time. I love to sing, but not being an instrumentalist I tend to avoid those jamming. I missed Old Getaway times when someone would say "hey there's singing going on in so-and-so's cabin. Come on." and off we'd go. But I never did find the late night singing- actually I was fighting a coldish thing and was better off going to bed 1 o'clock. I would have felt quite uncomfortable going to the mudcatter cabin to sing- shucks I'm not even sure which one it was. I should not require a special invite. Most of this I see as my problem of lack of assertiveness. I was touched that Mick greeted me by name and that I hugged Jeri good bye and of course I love KarenK. Relationships take time-so it is for the merging of families. -Lorraine


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: kendall
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:30 PM

I must have had too much spiced rum, because I didn't notice any division at all. Everyone was most gracious and friendly. This weekend was the most fun I ever had with my clothes on, and nothing spoiled any part of it. I am most grateful to GWFS for the invitation, and, I look forward to next June when I will be at your meeting.

As far as someone being too shy to ask me to sing a particular song, I hear this so often, and it really makes me sad. If someone goes out of their way to request a song from me, I am most grateful for the chance to share what the creator gave me. Dont believe me? ask Dani. She saw the real me.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:34 PM

Actually, we try to gather information about attendees at the Getaway (sometimes based on years of knowing the people involved) and put people together in cabins we think would enjoy rooming with each other. We try to put jammers together. Kids in the same age groups (with their parents) together. There are actually several cabins for privacy for those who request it. We forgot to ask for information about snorers this year (though we did have a supply of earplugs available for the taking at the registration table). We'll have to ask more carefuilly about snoring next year--the gentleman in Cabin U who ket many awake with his snores, for example. And there were some folks we relocated from the jamming-late cabin to quieter accommodations. (Should have had them in the quiet cabin to begin with!) Anyone is welcome to bring a tent or an RV. Tents may be pitched almost anywhere. The only bad news news for Jon Freeman is that smoking is prohibited in every building at the camp. (The good news is that there are butt-bins on many of the porches.)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:42 PM

I'd probably just base my choice on whether or not I'd be embarrassed if I farted in the bathroom, ran into someone with a small, or no amount of clothing on (either me or the other person). I like not having to worry about doing something that bothers someone because folks will know me well enough to tell me, or tell someone that does know me. For the record, there are some FSGW members I'd feel comfortable with, and there are some Mudcatters I don't. (And it's not that I don't like someone or even anything they do, it's just how relaxed I feel around them, and that is TOTALLY based on my personality weirdnesses.)

As far as partying till 4 AM, we managed that in the TV room of the main building on Sun. Actually closer to 5, I think. I am STILL recovering!

I think an awful lot of this thread is devoted to imagined perceived problems anyway. I think we're trying to fix things when we don't know what's broken, or even if anything is. Obviously some people had problems, but they might have been isolated incidents, like SINSULL's experience. Maybe we'll get more information when the feedback forms are all in.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 09:58 PM

Lorraine, next year, please ask me about the cabin! Ask Mick. Well, if there IS a cabin.

By the way, I think you nailed it with "Relationships take time-so it is for the merging of families. " It's happening - just not as fast as some people expected or would like.

Charlie, I LOVE the earplugs! I don't even mind snorers when I have earplugs.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 10:04 PM

Jeri and everybody--these thread are extensions of the feedback forms.

And we'll make sure there are jamming spaces beyond the dining hall/TV room building. The Gym was available, though nobody used it. The theatre barn was probably too drafty for night-use, though available. And there's the parlor of the White House that went unused. And I can think of another 3 or 4 places we didn't publicize that might be good places.

Lorraine--I missed the late night a cappella song circle, too, but like you, I also had a cough/coldish thing, as did many other of the usual late-night ballad/song singers.

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:01 AM

Charlie, sounds to me like you all put a lot of thought into this event and try to cater for our own individual needs and dare I say "strangeness" (I am certainly strange) pretty well.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Sandy Paton
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:54 AM

Caroline and I normally gravitate toward the late-night singing sessions, too, since neither of us are sufficiently adept on instruments to jam with the pickers, and both of us are very ballad/trad oriented. I was just coming back from near total voicelessness five days before the Getaway, and Caroline was just beginning to come down with a similar affliction, so we eschewed all late-night gatherings. A good ballad sing in the parlor of the White House might have been nice, since we were in the front room right off of the parlor and the songs could well have lulled us to sleep. Maybe next year?

We also seem to have one foot in GWFS and the other in the Mudcat. Many GWFSers are friends of ours stretching back over several decades. We don't sense a great division between the two camps, if there is one. When someone is introduced to us by his/her Mudcat handle, we're grateful, as we're glad to be able, finally, to put a face to a nom de 'net. After that, it's just "welcome to the party," regardless of affiliation.

Caroline is wonderfully able to walk up to perfect strangers and say, "Hi, I'm Caroline. Who are you?" (I'm too insecure to do that.) Then, when she introduces them to me, she can usually tell me their names, where they live, how many children they have, what kind of music they like best, what kind of music they hate most, and what they had for dinner last night. Very few of us have that skill. Her only trouble comes from being unable to read name tags or buttons, or to recognize people from more than a few feet away. Please keep that in mind, folks.

So -- we did miss the great late-night quiet "group sings" this year, but that was our own fault. If either of us had been in better voice, we could have started one somewhere. Next year, for sure!

Sandy


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:14 AM

Spaw. I guess I have to admit it .... I am an engineer ... overanalyzing and trying to solve problems is in my blood.

I do take what you said seriously and have reread everything here.

From the first thread I have tried to get across that I think Real world groups and on-line groups are good for one another. Our example is FSGW and Mudcat.

At the sametime, I agree that drawing attention to the Mudcatters at the Getaway is no longer needed, or even desired. I'm an FSGW member that happens to be a Mudcatter. Likewise I'm a Mudcatter that happens to be a FSGW member. Like you, I don't think that having a 10 year Mudcatter Celebration at the FSGW Getaway would be a good idea. I like the idea of having both so I could go to both !

We are never going to be able to address everyone's "feelings", nor should we. I felt what I felt in the past. It was just a statement trying to show how both groups benefit from the relationship. FSGW doesn't just get people at the Getaway from the Mudcat. They get new/old members like me that may start going to events, volunteering, or interact with people that they never would in the real world. Heck, I even was intimidated by Judy Cook which just seems plain impossible now. I thought the Mudcat helped remove barriers and divisions, not create them. If people want to sit in the corner and be grumpy, let them. The rest of us will go about having a good time with everybody else. However, if people are sitting in the corner because they are shy, or don't know how to introduce themselves then let's pull them in (not to Mudcat, but to all of the activities in general).

My suggestion on cabins was not necessarily to overcome bad feelings, but to maybe help bring people together. There were people that tried to go to sleep early in our cabin, and I know last year at least one person was very uncomfortable with our shared bathrooms and me in my boxers and t-shirt (I think she would have fainted this year). Those types of preferences can be planned for.

Anyway, I will try to stop engineering in public.

JAB

P.S.

I do have a question though. How do other real world organizations in England, Canada, or elsewhere in the states interact with overlapping groups.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: DeanC
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:42 AM

I'm very much encouraged by what I've read in this thread. The fact that so many have indicated that they did not percieve any problem if good. I noticed only a few subtle things that I won't even go into here. I probably notice some of these things because of my past experience in organizing FSGW events. I'm a little more sensitized to them.

I think we make a reasonable effort to deal with everyone's sleeping preferences. In fact, cabin assignments are not written in stone. If you need to change for some reason arrangements can be made.

The issue of separate jams going on at night is as old as the Getaway. It seemed that I used to spend half the night at Prince William Forest Park wandering around looking for the right one to join. There was usually a rock and roll jam called the Cabin B Boogie that I always felt uncomfortable going to because it seemed to be a bunch of friends jamming. I later got to know most of those people pretty well, and I now realize that the problem was mine. I think that one difference at Ramblewood is that some of the jamming is going on in the cabins. Some people may feel uncomfortable about crashing the party in someone's "living room." However, with the arrangement of this camp the cabins make some of the best spaces, so I think we will just have to get used to it. I think it is significant that we are relatively new to Ramblewood. We're still learning how to best use it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Knitpick
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:24 AM

As the housing czarina for the Getaway, I thought I'd throw in a few comments. It has became obvious to me that next year there will be no "mudcat" cabin per say, just friends housed together -- AND we are going to choose a cabin --as far away from any other-- with no one sleeping there -- to be the "late-night alternate jam location" alternate being from whatever is going on in the dining hall rooms, or the gym (which to my mind is not a nice place for a jam -- jams need to be in smaller spaces -- you know -- how many can we cram into this room and still make music? --space). And make sure that it is shown on the map handed out when folks arrive. I'm not sure about the White House, as people sleep there, but I do know that front parlor looks like a wonderful jamming space. And I agree, even as the MC on Saturday night who mentioned who was FSGW and who was Mud, that I shouldn't do that -- just whether it's the persons first, etc. Getaway -- and how wonderful it is to have them there. I thought that the 'catters integrated very well with the FSGW folks -- and there are FSGW folks that come every year to the Getaway that I still feel I don't know -- except for a name on a registration. And this was my 21st Getaway (my husband's 35th?). (My husband jammed with Keith Baldwin on Saturday night, and couldn't remember his name, and was ashamed to admit that he knew Keith had been coming for 20+ years!)

As DeanC said, we're still figuring out how to use Ramblewood.

And about snorers --we gave up trying to put them off by themselves -- there are WAYYYY tooo many of them. Hench the big box of ear plugs at registration. I don't know of a cabin that didn't have a "known" snorer in it -- mine certainly did! (And it's not my husband!) I know of at least 25+ identified window rattling snorers, and with 110 staying there, it's hard to keep them from disturbing others. And the ear plugs work folks!

And I think all the 'catters coming is helping to revive the getaway -- it was getting stagnet. Lots of wonderful new friends to see again every year! And if I find the time, to check in with on the 'cat occaisionally.

jennifer near dc aka knitpick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: harpgirl
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:50 AM

...this is such an insightful discussion of group dynamics I thought I'd add my one cent. Feeling left out, or "not in with the in crowd" is often an adolescent developmental issue that if unresolved, leaves people feeling left out in adulthood with no resources to change this.

The solution is so well described here. Take responsiblity for operations! An adult approach! Pitch in as a helper, volunteer, workshop presenter, admiring participant, bathroom cleaner or cook.

Next year, when Nathan is off to college I hope I can go and be a volunteer. Glad you all had so much fun....Abby


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:53 AM

Jennifer, I like that "just friends housed together."

If Getaway attendees all joined FSGW, we'd really throw a spanner in the works. Heck, it doesn't cost anything extra when you figure the membership fee is deducted from the cost of the Getaway, plus we get the wonderful newsletter which tells us about all the stuff we're missing because we're not local! I haven't done this, because it means someone will have to print and send a newsletter to me every year. It means I may be asked to vote for FSGW officers. I wouldn't do that, because I don't know them well enough - I'd leave it up to local folks who knew what nominees were about.
What say FSGW members?

One note on drawing quiet folks into a group - don't try it! I'm a not-shy person with a lack of confidence. Truly shy people can be very confident about certain things, but are uncomfortable with interpersonal communication with people they don't know.

There's nothing scarier for both types of corner-sitters than to try to drag them somewhere they don't want to be. Sure, invite them, but don't push. If they like the corner, let them stay there until they want to come out. Introduce yourself, tell people you like something they do, smile at them, but don't try to draw them into a conversation, or the next time they see you, they'll walk the other way. The point is for people to feel comfortable being who and where they want to be, and not trying to change them. The latter is about your comfort level, not theirs.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:10 AM

Ill second that opinion Jeri - I'm amazed at how easily I am able to interact - both at the Getaway and at Old Songs; I have other functions I attend with people I have known much longer - and my usual modus operenda is to sit in the corner - and a few people come by- but mostly I "people watch" - trying to drag me into the thick of thinks is almost garunteed to make me leave. I think part of it is that at both Getaway and Old songs there is so much to do and see I don't have time to "just observe" ; but everyone is different this way.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:20 AM

Jeri! So that was YOU farting in the bathroom!

Just kidding...I was billeted in "The Pines", and it would have taken a nuclear blast to reach my ears.

Ya know, this is interesting, but it strikes me a bit like the constant "let's fix" Mudcat thing. Believe me, the dynamics at Ramblewood were FAR superior to any similar event I've participated in over 32 years. There seemed to be absolutely no VISIBLE hierarchy, and that amazed me. I never once got the feeling that the folks in charge (which ALWAYS means the ones who've volunteered hundreds of hours in preparation) weren't having as much agenda-free fun as everyone else...and that's rare.

It still may be difficult for shyer folk to jump in, but having "been there", I'll bet that many of the more extroverted musicers once WERE shy. It takes time and encouragement, and I saw great gobs of that at the Getaway.

Still smiling from the experience.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Big Mick
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:39 AM

Yep, I am dead in the same corner as Rick on this one. And this wasn't an anomaly. All three of the Getaways I have been to have been the same. I have never felt separate, or unwelcome. The Mudcat's relevance in this gathering is only that of a resource that caused me to discover this gathering. I am very, very proud of our Mudcat, but it doesn't rate as a divider to me. The Getaway is a gathering of folkies.......period. And I am going to join FSGW because of that bunch of folkies. They are savvy, understand the music, loaded with talent, warm, welcoming.........all the adjectives apply here. They run a gathering that is not matched by any other I have attended. It is free of snobbiness, and there was not a "Folk Nazi" to be found. Everyone was just enjoying the music. If a workshop or a session didn't suit you, you just moved off to another, or started your own.

With regard to the cabin sings, I would just like to say that ours was open to anyone that wanted to come in. But having said that, I would ask the Mudcatters the following: How many folks did we ASK to join us? Some of the comments here by long time attendees are worth pondering. In order for us to be accepted in this community, we have to reach out a bit and integrate a bit more.

Now.............. I really do have to get to the studio or I will be shot.......LOL

Mick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM

There *were* some people there who weren't billeted in the cabin - heck the only reason *I* knew that there was anything going on in our cabin was that I was in the front hall of the dining room when Max yelled something about "Heading back to the cabin to sing"


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM

You are right Jeri, people always have to be sensitive, and there are times that I simply want to be a corner sitter. But I sure appreciate the invitation just as long as a feel that It's not required or I am being forced to do anything. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

Another thing about Ramblewood, is that it is BIG and at night things are hard to find. My brother showed up un-announced Saturday night. He later told me that he almost drove away because everything seemed so quiet and dark. And I know that there were at least 4 jams/sings going on at that time. It is a little easier to roam at other events I have been at simply because they are more dense.

JAB


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:36 PM

Oops - newsletter is every month, not every year.

Rick, there seemed to be no pressure at all. The events and meals were scheduled, and you knew what cabin your bed was in. Other than that, where you went, what you did, who you did it with, and when you did it, were all up to you.

Maybe, if there's a chance people will feel hesitant about joining in, there should be something in the program about "Any cabin music is open to all."


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM

There is an art to encouraging the shy person sitting in the corner to sing or play. If you want to observe an expert practitioner or two, watch Sandy and Caroline Paton host a song circle. There are, of course, may others who are good at this. Last June at the Old Songs Festival, I watched Bob Zentz and Joel Mabus lead a song circle with equal skill. I daresay there are many Getaway regulars who are practiced at it, also. It's an ability to open an invitation and apply exactly the right amount of attention to encourage without embarassment, and to be willing to table the invitation and offer it again a little later if there's shyness. It's an art to learn!

--Charlie Baum


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:25 PM

I'm going to have to start commenting on stuff as I work my way down the thread, there's too much for my puir wee brain to remember!

Charlie, we used to have cabin "style" preferences on the registration form, didn't notice if they were there this year. We asked about late-night vs quiet after 10pm; kids; men-only and women-only; snoring/non-snoring and whether people snore (some people lied though....) AND, we asked if there were specific people you would like to share a cabin with. (Sorry, we do NOT ask if there are people you'd rather sleep in a gravel pit than share a cabin with :-) but if you end up with one of those, there are always plenty of empty bunks in other cabins.)

If you don't see those questions on next year's forms, holler at us and we'll fix it. (This is the royal or editorial "We," since it's Charlie who will actually do the work....)

I believe that one reason some people feel a bit uncomfortable with the Mudcat presence, is that we have had to move the camp much farther from Washington and also raise the price a bit, and a number of people can't make it, especially if they have lots of kids. Day-tripping has gotten much harder because the travel time is closer to 2 hours now than 1. So we are missing a lot of people who used to be regulars. Don't know what we can do about it but we're going to try to improve the situation for those people.

I've been trying to think of good places to officially designate as late-night jamming areas. In the old camps, it was easy: we had plenty of spaces that would work, and were close enough together to walk to comfortably. The White House is only good for the quieter types of music after 10pm, because one reason people end up staying there is that they need their rest (me, for example....)

Any suggestions? Is there a close-in cabin we could suggest? How about the handicapped cabins, if they aren't being used in a given year? Is there a cabin we should reserve for late nights? Maybe it should be a central cabin, so people can stagger back to bed without getting lost....

[As I read more of the thread I saw that Jennifer suggested the same thing....]

There's no point in trying to specify what kind of music/jams/ballads/singing will take place in a given location. You can lead a folkie to a venue but you can't make 'em sing if what they want is pickin' and vice versa. We'll just try to suggest some good locations.

About joining FSGW and getting a newsletter, Jennifer, you are closer to it all than I am, but I know we have a LOT of out of town members, I can't believe it's any problem.

Oh. And, Charlie, would you ask the camp if we can somehow put a light and a sign in the long driveway, or at the gazebo-or-whatever-it-is, to give people some idea how to find the dining hall at night?

Back to my article. Have wasted two hours picking out photos to go with it, now I have to write captions and I'm supposed to be making a few wood things for Saturday's show.... how time does fly.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:42 PM

Sinsull, I assure you that wasn't me. There was at least one other Bruce there that I know of, but that one also has a computer. (Whether I own a computer or it owns me, however, is a different question.)

Mmario, I was at Barry Finn's Sea Shanty workshop for the first hour, and his lead-off song is one I'd never heard before. I had to leave at 5:30 PM Sunday. My night vision is poor and I had to get to familiar roads by nightfall. Sorry I didn't spot the name on your badge earlier. I appreciate all the hard work you've done trying to get all the tunes for the songs on the Mudcat Cafe and Forum. I was a day-tripper only and missed the Saturday and Sunday night concerts. I met several other Mudcatters there for the first time, but I know I missed many others, and certainly had no harsh words with any.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:05 PM

There was definitely another Bruce there, who gave a very good back rub! Must've been a third or fourth Bruce.

Didn't Barry do the Saltpeter Shanty? (Bruce, I was very happy to see you sitting there without your fingers stuck in your ears while I was singing!)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:08 PM

On second thought, I believe Barry did a West Indian shanty that I hadn't heard before, either. Not something as well-known as the Saltpeter Shanty. Sorry for the thread creep...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:13 PM

Sorry Jeri, forgot to note that you were co-leader of the sea shanty workshop. How about explaining the significance in your song of "Fire down below"?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:15 PM

Bruce - no problem! Wish we had gotten a chance to talk - as I am more then in awe of your work. And shows how rapt I was in the singing I didn't notice how long you were around.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:46 PM

It's OK Bruce. I think I was there more for song support and crowd control - Barry was the one with the experience and knowledge. Wish I'd at least said "hi" to you, but I didn't want to bother you. (Just me being chicken.)

I don't know much about the song. I got it from the Johnson Girls' CD. The notes say it's a capstain shanty, from the James M. Carpenter collection. It was collected from Welsh seaman William Fender of Barry Docks, who served at sea from 1878 to 1900.

The "Midway Plaisances" mentioned in the song were built for the World's Colombian Exposition, which opened in 1893.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:54 PM

my friends, (both Mudcat & FSGW friends)..this is amazing!..the very existance and thoughtfulness of this thread shows it is working!...as several have pointed out, some out-of-towners have better attendance records than the locals! (Dick Greenhaus,Susan of DT, Keith Baldwin, Sue & Charlie West & Dick & Marlene Levine come to mind)....

as to late night sings...trying to plan them is like herding chickens! I know several people who 'can' fit into almost any music that happens, and others who have a narrower focus...and it often DOES happen that a planned 'group' in a planned location gets sidetracked because someone got there first! So...where do we go? "Over to my cabin...pass the word"..and it works better some nights than others. And...lets be right up front with this...the dynamics of any given group change as people get up, sit down, need to eat, pee, or have a smoke.

....and you ALL know that in any group there are those who want to do every 3rd or 4th song, even if there are 17 people there...do the math and imagine what goes on inside the heads of those who are thinking,"hey, no one is asking me to sing, and I am way to shy or proud to just butt in"...so they get up & leave, looking for a less competitive venue. I do know that at one point, Rick Fielding practically held up a red flag and said "It's Bill's turn!"...*grin*...bless you for noticing, buddy.(and I didn't ruin "Black Waters" too badly, huh?)

...anyway, it IS a good idea to have 'places' identified for singing, even if the exact nature of the gatherings vary, (and sure, it is handy to be near the dining hall for quick access to coffee and snacks...but,,,*shrug*)..[that back part of the dining hall is just one long set of rooms, and acoustics carry..hard to have pickin' in two rooms close together]

this was my 23rd consecutive Getaway, and I sure plan on 20 or 30 more, because NO MATTER HOW they go, they are always wonderful, if you allow them to be!...and Mudcat has made them better.

If Mudcat eventually has weekends of it's own, great!...I suspect that a 10th anniversery gathering might be best timed for a 'safer' time of year...we are rolling the dice with this late October thing. But if is does happen, there will sure be a contingent of FSGW members wearing out 'other' hat! *grin*


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Tinker
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 PM

Just my two cents.... Last year was not only my first Getaway, but it was also my first Reality based Mudcat Experience and my first exposure to the "Folk scene" all at once. To say that the collective energy and emotion blew me right out of the water is probably an understatement. I loved every minute of the whole thing, but just getting to know Mudcatters seemed like plenty. Yet when I finally offered a song it was in a song circle where I didn't recognize a single Mudcat face. ( And it was the only one I did all weekend.) By Sunday night I was waltzing with Jeri and feeling very at home. I came home with FSGW and Mudcat faces both imprinted on my brain and everything was much more comfortable this year. I even braved the ballad circle and with cajoling sang. Lisa Null (I think) later said she enjoyed it and that too sits as a high point for the lady who's usual singing is in an open field over the din of 100 campers. Like Jeri and others above I'm often insecure in putting myself forward musically. It's a loved hobby that I don't have nearly enough time to study. I usually go away jealous that I'm to far away for all the wonderful activites and releaved that I won't have to try and fit them in my schedule (at least til next year).

This thread has made me think and a "come join us" is certainly easy enough to say.

Tinker


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:51 PM

I suppose it may be useful for me to point out that on Saturday night, Max and I went "head hunting" to try to find some people to jam with. When we got to the dining hall there was a huge throng in the TV room - a mixture of FSGWers and 'Catters. We (more in a moment about "we") recruited anyone who was not in the TV room. As it turned out, virtually all of them were Mudcats. That was how the jam in #10 began.

Now, having said that, I will have to admit a huge shyness on my part. I am not sure I could have walked up to someone I didn't know to invite them to join us. Mostly, I stood idly by while Max boldly and loudly touted the (then) non-existent jam to anyone who would listen. I secretly admired that he could do that. I was having a hard time doing so - even with people I knew!

Most of the time I am rather shy. Being overtly friendly with strangers is quite difficult for me. Fortunately, sometimes I can force myself without (I hope) seeming to be forcing myself.

An example of my shyness lies in the fact that I would not have ever dreamed of asking Janie to sing with me for the open-mike. It is not that I didn't enjoy singing with her. It is just that I am rather reticent with people who are new to me. Fortunately, Janie took the initiative to ask.

I wish I could have trotted up to various FSGW "strangers" and spoken with them. Some, I recognize from previous years. I even attended one of the monthly "sings" at the home of one. But I'll be damned if I can ever remember her name!

Aye, there's the other piece of it. As stated in another thread, it is so very helpful in social situations if a person's name can be recalled. I tend to avoid people whose names I can't remember so as to avoid admitting the embarrassment. I could tell you tales...but not in this thread. I know full and well what the solution is. I just can't seem to make myself take that step.

Gee I didn't mean to get this far into my own personal foibles. But I did want you to realize that there are folks like me among both groups.

Hey! I just had a thought...I have been to more than my share of the kind of cocktail parties that they used to throw in the 50's and 60's as well as a number of more recent seminars. Often these things have started with some games or "team building" exercises, the purpose of which is to introduce people to each other. They usually serve the purpose quite well. At the bare minimum, people get to know the names of the people on their "team". Usually these are silly little games - I am sure many of you have experienced them. What if we did something like that at the start of the Getaway instead of the "Who Are These People?" sort of thing (...er...not that this was a bad thing...no, I didn't mean that at all). Waddayathink?


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:06 PM

Allan, are you volunteering for the Adult Silly Games workshop? (hehe)


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:41 PM

One other thing I alluded to above, Jeri, is that I can usually do whatever the situation absolutely demands. But sometimes the demand has to be rather persistant, though. I know you were kidding, but if it were decided that such an event should take place and if NOBODY was going to make it happen, I would very nervously jump into the breech.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Nancy King
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:59 AM

Jeri, regarding joining FSGW as an out-of-towner, you -- and anyone else who wants to -- would be more than welcome to do that, and there is another option as well: one can get an out-of-town subscription to the Newsletter for a much lower price than a regular membership. It gets you the Newsletter only -- no reduced admissions to events (including Getaway) and no voting in elections, etc., but you do get the news.

And Jeri, I thought your singing was great! I envy your ability to sing loud! I should have said so in person, but somehow it didn't happen. There are a lot of folks I wish I'd spoken to. I will next year!

I think there was MUCH less distinction this year between Mudcatters and FSGW members than was the case last year, and I think if we take some of the steps mentioned above, such as no separate Mudcat cabins or jams, we'll do even better. As for a Mudcat 10th anniversary blowout, I think it sounds like fun, but it should NOT be a part of the Getaway, lest we exacerbate the problem we're trying to solve here.

Since we do seem to have a lot of cabin space available, I definitely would appreciate having one or maybe even two of them set aside for music-making at night. In fact, I'd like to see a cabin or other alternate site for workshops too. The gym, with its stage, is OK for the concerts, I guess, but really isn't very hospitable for most workshops or for jamming.

Many thanks to Jennifer, Charlie, Rita and the many others who worked hard to give us this terrific opportunity to get together. I've been in your shoes and I know how much you put into it. I'll be back there with you one of these days. I was amused that Dean Clamons credited/blamed me for getting him involved in volunteering for FSGW. Truth be known, I also recruited Jennifer Woods. Hey -- I'm a great judge of volunteers, what can I say?

Cheers, Nancy


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: DeanC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:41 AM

I've had mixed feelings about having brought up this thread earlier in the week. I've wavered between worrying that I may have made some of the Mudcatters feel unwelcomed to the Getaway and being pleased with the open discussion of the issues. I'm pretty firmly in the latter camp now. There has been a lot of intelligent, inciteful discussion here, and in fact I think probable solutions to the problems have been arrived at.

Allan - We used to have "ice-breakers" at the Getaway. They took various forms including a dance and taffy pulling. One that I thought was fun was a scavenger hunt. This one had the twist that what you were hunting for was people. For example, "Find someone who has been to Madagascar." There was such a person (Jerry Navratil for those who remember him). In fact we did this for a few years and those of us making up the questions thought of more and more ridiculous quests without knowing whether anyone would fit the bill. Amazingly, there was always someone there that was the answer to every question. We gave out silly prizes to the person who got the most answers. Ask my wife (Carly) about the mock apple pie some time. I think we stopped doing these ice-breakers because the Getaway got a bit stagnant in that the same people were coming year after year. We mostly knew each other, so these little games became superfluous. But I think we were wrong because we were, without bad intention, shutting out those few newcomers that were showing up. With the influx of new faces - welcomed new faces - in the last couple of years I think we should have and still should re-establish some kind of ice-breaking event. Thanks for reminding us!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: MMario
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:46 AM

One of the simple and less obnoxious ones I have run into - "pair off with the person seated next to you - you have five minutes to discover one unique or unusual thing about that person." then they ran around the room with each person doing a real quick Name, from, item introduction of their partner.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:44 AM

I actually approached at least three, maybe four Bruces, all but one friendly but none an Olsen or a Mudcatter. Next year, BruceO.
Who was the lady with the ukelele? She had wonderful music and a great sense of humor.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:46 AM

That was SINSULL. The uke lady sang "God Bless America" at the Saturday concert.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jeri
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:52 AM

Dottie Hurley.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:39 PM

yup..Dottie is one of our local 'Uke ladies'....(the other didn't come)...Dottie has compiled a wondrous collection of songs from the 30s & 40s...but will also do a ballad and who know what else!...she also brings wonderful desserts to the potluck..*grin*, thus winning two places in my heart!


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Allan C.
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:14 PM

Seems to me that she usually plays a banjo-uke rather than a standard ukelele. I heard her at my first Getaway (the last one at Prince William) and was greatly impressed.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:43 PM

Dottie is my Muse! She plays banjo uke almost exclusively, and is know to play some songs from the 20's too. I liked her playing so much that I'm now trying to learn banjo uke too.

JAB


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:01 PM

Ya know, this is interesting, but it strikes me a bit like the constant "let's fix" Mudcat thing.

Strikes me as bieng quite different. In this thread I have seen people involved in the FSGW invite comments, say it can be used as a "feedback form", seen questions about policies answered, noticed possible willingness to change or consider little details like people being announced "from Mudcat" in a concert, recognisition of the different needs of people, had opening conversation to give feedback on similar situations eslewhere. etc.

Quite a contrast I would have thought.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Tinker
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:48 PM

Jeri, Is this the kind of thing you mean by adult silly games???? As my 14 year old would say " visualize." TIE THE TEAM TOGETHER You tie a spooon on a ball of string and then thread it up the sleeve and down the leg of the first in line then up the leg and down the sleeve of the next til the team is tied together. The catch is that if you are being threaded you can't move or touch the string or spoon... your teammates must do it for you.....Nevermind .....

KAthy


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:06 PM

...and DO watch out for "threading drift"...


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: marty D
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:22 PM

I'll have to agree with Jon. Although I've never been to something like the FSGW, the tone of this thread has been one of understanding and politeness, without the whining and 'I quit' mentality, that often comes up in the 'let's fix Mudcat' threads. It sure sounds like everyone had a great time.

marty


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM

I missed out on a big chunk of the Mudcat jam session on Saturday night because I was jamming with a bunch of FSGW people whom I had never met before, and I'm incredibly glad I had the opportunity to do that. But the reason I was doing that was because a Mudcatter (whom I had also not ever met, or even encountered in the Mudcat), and FSGW member, Judy (momnopp) heard that I play the accordion, and with a generosity that I have found plenty of in both groups, went and hunted down a squeezebox player for me to jam with. And I'm grateful to her for doing so.

On the other hand, I enjoyed the feeling at the Mudcat jam in a different way than I enjoyed the other jam. Neither one of them was better than the other. Just a little different to me. I'm really thankful that I had the opportunity to do both things.

The two things feel different to me, but in a good, even complimentary way, I think. I'm glad I experienced it the way I did. I wouldn't change a thing about it.


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 10:23 AM

I think in retrospect I have to agree with you Marty. The threads really aren't that similar. Lotsa good info here.

Heck, the first time I looked up that hill that led to the "white house" (where some fine workshops were held) I thought, 'maybe I'll camp out half way up'. After doing it seven or eight times, I was in great shape...even felt a bit like "Rocky" by the time I reached the top!

Rick


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Subject: RE: Mudcat and FSGW/Other 3d organ.
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM

Yeah Rick. But I do have to take issue with one thing...................we have to call someone about those damn hills..........I don't see the need for them........take them someplace else for the weekend........LOL.

The second night that I stayed up until 5:00 AM was spent with Jed, Jeri, and a bunch of FSGW'ers at two different sessions. Wonderful lot, these folks.

Mick


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Mudcat time: 19 September 5:00 PM EDT

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