Which Black Ball line?

Subject: Which Black Ball line?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 08:12 PM

I notice that:

James Baines was born 26 Oct 1823 in Liverpool (died broke in 1899). He built the 3rd Black Ball Line, the 1850 clipper one from Liverpool to Australia (not the American, NY-Liverpool packet line of 1817)

ALSO: The first announcement of sailings of the Old Line (it didn't generally become known as the Black Ball Line until about 1840) of New York, was in The "Evening Post", New York 27 October, 1817.

so this is a good week to sing the song. Black Ball Line

Not that it matters much but I wonder which one (it has to be one of these two - there were two additional lines that ripped off the name) the song is most likely about.

The only clue I have from the verses I happen to have is that one of the line's ships (unnamed unfortunately) could apparently get her speed to 14 knots.

Question: Was that a good clip for a packet ship (1817) or for a clipper ship (1850)?

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Melani
Date: 24 Oct 01 - 11:23 PM

Not sure about different designs and relative speed, but 14 knots is pretty darn fast for any ship.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Margo
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:02 AM

The Black Ball Line was known as being notorious for very hard working conditions. It was the first shipper that left on a time schedule rather than waiting for the tide. They went for speed and punctuality, so you can imagine they really worked their crews. Yes that was a good clip for a packet ship.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:52 AM

I agree with Margo, 14 knots was great for the packet ships of the 1840's. The clippers were reported to be able to do more than 16 knots under ideal conditions, as did some of the later medium clippers in the later 19th century.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:24 PM

Hi Abby, how are ya? 14 knots isn't to shabby for a clipper though many topped that. The Flying Cloud logged 18 knots & the Soverign Of The Seas made 22, Old Ironsides hit 14 knots at least once that was reported by one of it's Captains. From Hawaii to San Diego on a 47' cutter we made between 7 & 8 & thought that was pretty fine sailing of course we were also becalmed horse lats for 12 straight days, kind of yanked the bone clear out of our mouths. Hope to see you again sometime soon & good luck to you, Barry

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Grab
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:37 AM

Interesting. While you guys are on the topic, in "Blow the man down" where the policemen says

I see you're a Black-Baller by the cut of your hair
And them long red top seaboots I see that you wear.
You've sailed in some packet that flies the Black Ball,
And you robbed some poor Dutchman of boots, clothes and all.

Which Black Ball Line would be referred to here, and why would the sailor have robbed a Dutchman? I'd always presumed the Black Ball Line was a line competing with his, since he's a tea-clipper sailor ("flying-fish sailor just home from Hong Kong"). Anyone know the history of this?

Graham.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:27 PM

So I went & listened to MacColl's version. Very different set of verses from the usual but he includes the following:

Just take a trip to Liverpool, To Liverpool, that packet school.

There's Liverpool Pat with his tarpaulin hat, And Paddy McGay, that packet rat.

So I guess with that and with the info that 14 knots would be extraordinary for a packet ship but not for a clipper (Thanks All), I guess the song most likely originally refers to the 1817 packet line. Although, obviously it could have been used on both.

Barry - you too. We're certainly moving to NC within the year.

Grab - Seems it wasn't unusual for a sailor to get drunk, rolled and wind up nearly naked. Sometimes naked and Shanghaied. (Maybe he'd find all he had left was: "...an old suit of oilskins and two pairs of socks / And a bloomin' great head and a dose of the pox."

Others would (apparently) not bother to bring any gear, intending to steal what was needed from other sailors. Officers might (or might not) be ordered to watch out for such lowlife and not let them on board without their own kit. A Dutchman might be an easier mark or less sympathetic or just that the Anglo sailor might be able to get away with bragging about this but the others might object to him stealing from another Anglo sailor.

That (from your verse) would be the 1817, the packet line. It only sailed from NY to Liverpool. And back.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 12:51 PM

Abby started a Happy! thread to celebrate October 26, the birthday of James Baines, founder of the third Black Ball Line. That made me wonder, because I thought I remembered that I took the Black Ball Line from Victoria, BC, to Port Angeles, Washington. Sure enough, I did.
Click here for the history of M.V. Coho, the Black Ball Ferry that makes the trip across the inland end of the Straits of Juan de Fuca. It's a great trip, by the way.

So, are there other songs about the Black Ball Line?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 01:17 PM

How about one from home, Joe?
Sacramento

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:45 PM

from memory:

"On the Black Ball Ferry line,
Up in Seattle
Every single G.O.P and Democrat'll
Hear the whistle blow, nnd the bells toll.
While the ferry boat keeps chuggin' right along."

*trying to remember more*

"Up on the upper deck, the people----- by heck....

hmmmmmmmmm

(Bing Crosby)

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 02:56 PM

sound clip #12 on this page

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 06:48 PM

Joe, I only know the three lines.

There's probably many songs but I only find those already in DigTrad:

THE BLACK BALL LINE
BLOW THE MAN DOWN
BLOW THE MAN DOWN (5)
BLOW THE MAN DOWN (6)
THE DREADNAUGHT
FRIGGIN IN THE RIGGIN
PRISON OF NEWFOUNDLAND also at http://nfldsongs.tripod.com/

Thanks for the Seattle song, Bill D.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: yrlancslad
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 12:47 AM

Hi, re Grabs question about the verse in Blow the Man Down- clipper ship crews thought themselves far superior to the "packet rats" who sailed in the NY-L'pool Black Ball packet line referred to here so the insult was what resulted in the polisman being "blown" down.
The reference to the Dutchmans clothes probably comes from the clothes he was wearing which he'd picked up in the Far East.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 03:48 AM

Black Ball Line gets a mention in "New York Gals".

My flashman, he's a Yankee
With his hair cut short behind,
He wears a pair of long sea boots
And sails on the Black Ball Line

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 04:36 AM

"Hell or Melbourne in 60 days" on the route they followed (down to the Roaring Forties, then east, would mean at least 250 miles per day every day, which would mean 10.4 miles per hour or about 10 knots all the time. I'd say 14 knots for the later clippers like Thermopylae of Marco Polo would be a good cruising speed in reasonable conditions.

Please do not express preferences for Hell over Melbourne in this thread. Those Cabbage Patchers are touchy sometimes.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Dead Horse
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:46 AM

The verse of Blow The Man Down that refers to "I can see by the red-top sea boots you wear" followed by "robbed some poor dutchman of clothes, boots and all" seems to contradict itself! Unless he was carrying said articles in his sea bag, of course.
The "Blackball Line" shanty praises the ships and the sailors, whereas the version of Blow The Man Down (Blackball) does exactly the opposite, so I usually try to sing both versions, just to prove I am not biased:-)
I also do the same with "Santianna", doing the English(?) version praising the man, then doing the Yankee(?)(General Taylor) version, which is closer to the truth!
As to how fast a vessel could sail, that would depend mostly upon the strength of the wind, followed by the spread of sail and then by how trim the actual vessel was. But in this I defer to those who have got some "sea time" in. I am strictly a land sailor, and get sea sick standing on the quayside!

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Grab
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 04:14 PM

Interesting to see this come round again. Revisiting it, I see I never said thanks to Abby at the time - sorry! :-/

Graham.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Wayne Mitchell
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:59 PM

The Black Ball Line has the attractive name (as in "attractive nuisance"), so it may sometimes get the credit due to others. Judy Collins' version of Bullgine has...

Oh the smartest clipper you could find
    (Heave away, haul away)
Is the Margaret Evans of the Black Ball Line
    (Clear away the track and let the bullgine run)

Other versions, perhaps truer to the original, cite the ship as the Margot Evans of the Blue Cross or Blue Star Line.

Wayne

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 06:47 PM

Correcting my own errors---

I had a look at my 6 pages of notes on the Black Ball & saw why I was disturbed by what I said about the Seattle line. It was the forth. Baines' was the third, as I first thought. The second seems never worth discussing but here's the note:

Lars Bruzelius (see his extensive website) sends this:

>According to Stammers it seems that the Saint John-Liverpool Packet Line
>which existed during a couple of years in the 1850s and was managed by
>Richard Wright, St John, and William and James Fernie, Liverpool, was also
>known as the Black Ball Line.
======

Note, to avoid some confusion, the first line had the black ball logo but was originally known as "the Old Line" for 15 years or so.
======

Grab, yer welcome. In addition to your question, I might have noted that that "red-topped boots" reference likely referred to the New York line. It was a habit of American sailors in general but not of British ones. Ergo, the first, the NY-Liverpool line.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:06 PM

"There are countless versions of Blow the Man Down. The one here is from the Burl Ives Songbook and tells of the Blackball Line. The Black Ball Line was founded by a group of Quakers in 1818. It was the first line to take passengers on a regular basis, sailing from New York, Boston and Philadelphia on the first and sixteenth of each month. The Blackball flag was a crimson swallow-tail flag with a black ball."

Lost the site. But this is the pertinent part.

Subject: RE: Which Black Ball line?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:38 PM

Minor factual correction: It wasn't a matter of waiting for the tide but a full cargo. The packet ships charged a premium for their cargo and passengers because their departures were on a scheduled date.

The captains still wrote "sailing toward" in their log books, rather than "sailing to." That way, they were not tempting the gods.