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BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??

Mikey joe 25 Oct 01 - 07:17 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 25 Oct 01 - 07:22 AM
Fibula Mattock 25 Oct 01 - 07:42 AM
Fibula Mattock 25 Oct 01 - 07:45 AM
gnu 25 Oct 01 - 07:45 AM
InOBU 25 Oct 01 - 08:15 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 25 Oct 01 - 08:19 AM
GUEST,Mr Red at work. 25 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM
Wolfgang 25 Oct 01 - 08:27 AM
JedMarum 25 Oct 01 - 08:56 AM
Gary T 25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM
MMario 25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM
InOBU 25 Oct 01 - 09:20 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 25 Oct 01 - 09:36 AM
GUEST,english jon 25 Oct 01 - 10:57 AM
Wolfgang 25 Oct 01 - 11:01 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 25 Oct 01 - 11:08 AM
Mr Red 25 Oct 01 - 12:28 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Oct 01 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,colwyn dane 25 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM
RWilhelm 25 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM
Bert 25 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM
Jimmy C 25 Oct 01 - 02:18 PM
Mac Tattie 25 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM
Gareth 25 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM
GUEST,Al 25 Oct 01 - 07:42 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 25 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM
Malcolm Douglas 26 Oct 01 - 12:55 AM
Banjer 26 Oct 01 - 04:00 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 26 Oct 01 - 04:21 AM
Banjer 26 Oct 01 - 06:10 AM
GUEST 26 Oct 01 - 07:44 AM
Mr Red 26 Oct 01 - 08:18 AM
Grab 26 Oct 01 - 08:39 AM
Maryrrf 26 Oct 01 - 10:31 AM
catspaw49 26 Oct 01 - 10:38 AM
guinnesschik 26 Oct 01 - 10:47 AM
Tedham Porterhouse 26 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 26 Oct 01 - 11:26 AM
RWilhelm 26 Oct 01 - 12:59 PM
GUEST,Celtic Soul 26 Oct 01 - 04:15 PM
Gareth 26 Oct 01 - 06:39 PM
Kelticgrasshopper 26 Oct 01 - 07:03 PM
Mr Red 27 Oct 01 - 09:37 AM
Crane Driver 27 Oct 01 - 06:48 PM
Gareth 27 Oct 01 - 06:52 PM
Gypsy 28 Oct 01 - 06:24 PM
Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) 28 Oct 01 - 09:19 PM
GUEST,skylark 29 Oct 01 - 12:27 AM
GUEST,Adolfo 29 Oct 01 - 09:55 AM
The_one_and_only_Dai 29 Oct 01 - 10:03 AM
GUEST,aldus 29 Oct 01 - 10:47 AM
Maryrrf 29 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM

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Subject: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Mikey joe
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:17 AM

Hi

I merely want to say this. What do people mean by the term Celtic Music?... I think that by this most people mean Scottish/Irish songs and tunes. Songs and Music from bith traditions are similar and have been interchanged a lot. But the Welsh are Celts and so are Bretons and Galacians and the Cornish. Music from these regions are quite different from what most people call Celtic music, but are equally celtic. All I am saying is that the Celts were a race of people thousands of years ago covering a lot of Europe (not just Ireland & Scotland) I doubt they would know Drowsy Maggie, The Atholl Highlanders or The Fields of Athenry if they came up and bit them on the arse. And what would they make of The Trip to Pakistan!!

So please stop using the term Celtic Music, Celtic bands etc. They are Irish Scottish, Welsh etc.

End transmission

Mj


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:22 AM

I'd just like to point out that whe word 'Celtic' comes from the ancient Greek 'Keltoi', meaning "everybody who isn't an ancient Greek, Mede or Persian and therefore a barbarian".

I'd like to add my support to Mj's request, the term 'Celtic' only has any validity in California, where they write books about such things.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:42 AM

It's unlikely that these Celts were actually a race of people - it is a term which more correctly describes the spread of a material culture. We've done this discussion before somewhere...I'll have a look for old threads if I get a moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:45 AM

Aye, here's one.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: gnu
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:45 AM

I play Irish Traditional and Troubles tunes. But, when I tell people it's Celtic, they know what I meant to say.

Tommy Makem was on a local TV station last night and made the distinction between the "folk" Celtic and the newer music with Celtic flavour. Gosh, it'll never be clear. I just know what I like.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:15 AM

Having a CELTIC band myself, Celtic is a linguistic definition. We do songs in Breton and Gaelic. So when it come to BOING! http://sorchadorcha.com ! The plug-o-matic strikes again, thanks Spaw... so as I was saying we are a Celtic, not exclusively Irish band. Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:19 AM

...Atlantic Fringe maybe? 'Celtic' conjures up too many images of headhunting cattle thieves with questionable personal hygiene for me...


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,Mr Red at work.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM

I don't wish to be three legged about this (or particulalry "dragon coch") but....
where are the Manx on this?
and Orcadians may insist on a category of their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:27 AM

What is Celtic Music?

Does Celtic Music exist?

I thought I'd link to two former discussions. The gist of that discussion was that a label as 'Celtic Music' makes sense under very very rare circumstances. As for instance in a German music shop: They have too many CDs for a subdivision named 'folk' (in contrast e.g. to 'classic') to make sense and not enough for subdivisions like 'Irish', 'Welsh', 'English'...So they use labels like 'South American', 'Celtic' for the convenience of their customers.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:56 AM

it's true that people most often refer to Irish and Scottish tunes/songs when they say Celtic music - but it is not true they ignore the other Celts; Welsh, Bretons, Galacians, Cornish ... the others may be under-represented by volume, but they are still acknowledged by every description of Celtic music that I've seen.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Gary T
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM

If a performer who plays Irish and/or Scottish music says he plays Celtic music, that is true. I don't see much to be gained by insisting that those who claim to play Celtic music play every variety of Celtic music that exists.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM

and at least most people now know not to pronounce it "sel-tick"


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:20 AM

A "Sel tick" is a tall fellow, usually African American who plays a game in which the point seems to place a ball through a net suspended from a ring placed just above the reach of many humans, while a Kelt speaks a Keltic language and plays fairly nice though often abused music... Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:36 AM

Also, a 'sel-tick' can be a red-faced gentleman or lady wearing a green and white hooped football jersey. they are often found in close proximity to barmaids' aprons.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,english jon
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:57 AM

so...is english music celtic then?

ej


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:01 AM

of course yes, in a German record shop and
of course no, in the repertoire of InOBU's group.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:08 AM

"All things are true, even false things"

"How can this be, master?"

"Don't blame me man, I didn't do it"


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Mr Red
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:28 PM

geographically speaking Irish Music is from the British Isles (as opposed to British) but I doubt that many Gaels would speak of it thus. Celtic suits me as a generic term. What about music from Cape Breton Island? If that is not Celtic despite the flavour and origin and culture then I'll be hornswaggled.
What'll you be?
**BTW** ask any casual passer-by and they would call it Irish music because a) it is a session b) it goes diddly dee c) unless they are into it they pick-up on the similarities when we KNOW the differences.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:01 PM

As far as I was aware, the celts are all extince now anyway... so I doubt they give a tinkers cuss...

Play music you like, and don't get snarled up in arbitrary, usless definitions...

Mind you, I'm also in favour of dropping the term "Celtic Music"... I'd rather call myself a folk musician...

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,colwyn dane
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM

Hi folks,

I'm sure this has been done to death before but if you are interested in the correct pronunciation of Celtic
then journey here where Sharon L. Krossa presents some reasoned opinion.

This reminds me of the time Australia went metric and the then Australian Prime Minister wrote to Enoch Powell in England on how the word 'kilometre' should be pronounced -kil'lometer or keelo'meter?

Just my two percent.

Colwyn.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: RWilhelm
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM

I saw a band from Normandy (I forget the name) who referred to their music as Celtic. It was lively dance music played in guitar, fiddle, hurdy gurdy, and bombard, with very little resemblance to Irish or Scottish music.

In Boston it is music played at basketball games and the "C" is soft.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Bert
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM

When I was a kid "sel-tik' was used and listed in the dictionary as an alternative pronunciation. But of course that's just in the English language. It only changed to the archaic pronunciation when the folk purists got hold of the term.

Is English music Celtic? Yes some of it, especially that from Cornwall and the west country.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Jimmy C
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:18 PM

The term Celtic (Kel-tik)describes music and or customs which have a commmon cultural origin and include Irish - Scottish - Manx - Welsh - Cornish - and Breton Celts and also to those distantly related Celts of Austuria and Galicia in north-west Spain. Any traditional music or custom from these areas can be correctly referred to as Celtic, bearing in mind that there wil be differences due to outside influences and localized traditions. The music and customs from these areas would also have travelled via emigration to other parts such as the Cape Breton area and also parts of Newfoundland, Louisianna, and places too numerous to menton, through time there wouldbe changes to the music, some dramatic and some not so pronounced. If the music or song has it roots in any of these localities then it has the right to be referred to as Celtic or at best Celtic Style. I must agree with Clinton and say lets just enjoy what we have no matter what it is called. As far as the pronounciation is concerned I will CERTAINLY CONTINUE or is it SERTAINLY SONTINUE to call it Kel-Tic. Grin

Jimmy C


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Mac Tattie
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM

In Scotland a kelt is a diseased salmon and anything celtic has to do with a Glasgow football team. cheers


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Gareth
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM

Normandy ?? Celtic ????

Does this mean we Celts regained the lost lands in 1066 ??? And if so who the h*ll have we been fighting ever since.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,Al
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:42 PM

The Celtics, the basketball team from Massachusetts, is pronounced sel-tiks. Oh, well, the English language, and its variants, has never been rightly accused of excessive consistency.

But when people ask you what kind of music you play, you've got to have a quick and easy answer for them so you don't get bogged down in detail each and every time. For those who adhere to the Scots/Irish tradition, Celtic seems like a fine answer. People sort of know what it means.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM

Ho Hum. Celtic is a useful group term and certainly includes Breton, Cape Breton, etc. etc. Should a group that plays Scots, Irish, Breton, Galician, etc. change its name when it switches from one to the other? I agree with guest Al. Bert is right about the pronunciation, Seltic was preferred in the OED and Webster's with Keltic in second place. Outside of musical circles, it is still seltic to most people in the United States but Webster's now places Keltic first (haven't seen the latest OED). What, me worry?


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:55 AM

Part of the problem is that Scottish and Irish music have more, in terms both of repertoire and style, in common with English music than they do with, for example, Breton music, which in turn has more in common with French music, etc. etc.  The same is true of the general cultures of those countries.

As a person of mixed race (in fact, almost everybody over here is, whether they realise it or not), I have never understood this apparently irrational insistence on trying to impose what can only be an arbitrary dividing line between the traditional musics of the various nations that comprise what I may as well call, for convenience, the British Isles.  Is a song "Celtic" because it's sung in Scotland, or is it "English" when it's sung a hundred yards or so over the border?  Am I, as a person born in England of (recent) Scottish descent, more, or less, Celtic than a person born in Scotland of (common example) Italian parents?  In what way is such a distinction meaningful?

The "Celtic" label as we know it today began as a romantic -and rather ill-informed- notion of the 19th century, and is perpetuated mostly as a marketing ploy by the recording industry; except insofar as it applies to language and to archaeology, the term is so abused as to be functionally meaningless; we no longer talk about "Aryan" music, after all.  I have to admit that, like others, I describe the music I play as "Celtic" when answering questions from people who know nothing about the subject; they don't know what it means, but they think they do, so it saves time.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Banjer
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:00 AM

Mind you, I'm also in favour of dropping the term "Celtic Music"... I'd rather call myself a folk musician...

OK, so define 'folk'!

Banjerrunningandduckingforcover.....


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:21 AM

...oh chr*st, here we go...


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Banjer
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 06:10 AM

Dai there's room under this tree, come and hide with me til it blows over!!! (Somebody had to stir the pot to see how it smelled, might as well be me this time)


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:44 AM

Shouldn't that have been y ddraig goch? dragon coch must be wenglish


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Mr Red
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:18 AM

y ddraig goch? if I could sairad cymru yes, otherwise wenglish it is
though if we are being picky picky (oh, OK I am) it sould be Wenglish or WEnglish
**BG**

without labels it's all music or worse - NOISE. Ya just dun gotta hang a label of some sort - its called communication.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Grab
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:39 AM

And don't get started on traditional songs from non-Irish origins that have been popularisted by CDs and singers of the "Oirish party mix" variety (Danny Boy, From Clare to here, Wild Rover, etc). Or jigs and reels written by English ppl.

Just call it "diddly-diddly" music - then everyone'll know what you mean, regardless of what the national origin of the diddly-diddly music is.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:31 AM

Well, I think "Celtic Music" has come to mean something (however vague) to the general public, so I use it for convenience. "Folk" music doesn't really mean traditional music anymore, I think it means something like "acoustic singer songwriter music". Traditional music sometimes works, but let's face it - any kind of label can become problematic!


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: catspaw49
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:38 AM

Bert, I want to thank you for that post and the fact that "sel-tik" was/is an actual way of saying it. I mean, it always struck me as odd that a town full of Irish (Boston) would screw up the word.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: guinnesschik
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:47 AM

I heard Donnie MacDonald, who is a wonderful Scottish perfromer from way up north in the Hebrides Islands pronounce it as "Sel-tic." When questioned on it, he claimed the pronunciation is a regional thing.

I usually say Scot/Irish/American, 'cause when we play it, it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Tedham Porterhouse
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM

It is my understanding that the Celtic regions are Ireland, Brittany, Scotland, Wales, the Isle of Man, the Cornwall region in England and the Galicia and Asturias regions of Spain.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:26 AM

I hate all this ethnic rivalry.
An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman were arguing which race weighed the least. The Irishman said: "We have men of Cork". The Scotsman said: "Yes, but we have men of Ayr". The Englishman said:"Yes, but we have lightermen on the Thames."
RtS (technically one-quarter Irish but wholly Brummie)


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: RWilhelm
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:59 PM

Gareth,

I meant to say Brittany, not Normandy. Go ahead, keep fighting.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:15 PM

:::Sniff, sniff:::

Lord...now I have to find a new name?!?!?!?!

But, "Scots-Irish Soul" just doesn't have the same ring to it!

:::giggle!!:::


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Gareth
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 06:39 PM

That OK - Earl (A good Saxon title) When we've finished the intertribal fight we will return to the March.

Garydd ap (continued for several hundred ancestors)

PS BTW My Great (to the power of many) grandfather would like the arrows he fired at Agincourt back. They are heirlooms - Can any Boubon Catters oblidge ???


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Kelticgrasshopper
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:03 PM

Only in here can this stuff happen. Celtic, Seltic, Keltic, Irish/ Scottish, Breton. Whatever you call it, those of us who are fortunate enough to perform in the small circle of "the celtic tradition" just love it.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Mr Red
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 09:37 AM

Yea just love it - makin' musik .
Beats the kak out of switchin' on and blobbin'.
quite like "French" as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Crane Driver
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:48 PM

When the Saxons took over most of Britain, it was just a change of boss-men. They had to keep the peasants on to do all the work, while the bosses got on with boozing and fighting. And who created and passed on folk music? Of course English folk music is celtic as well, as if anyone cared. I only have problems when someone uses "Celtic" as a stick to beat other people's music with - I was once at a festival in Cornwall which banned English songs and tunes for not being "Celtic" (English-language songs from Wales, Scotland or Ireland were OK) Crazy or what? Musicians always have travelled (looking for cheap booze) and picked up tunes from everywhere. I've even heard English Morris dancers using Beethoven's 9th (on melodeon)! Damn good Morris tune. English? Celtic? Who cares?


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:52 PM

Oih ! Crane Driver - The Saxons never got further West than Chepstow.

Garydd.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Gypsy
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 06:24 PM

Howzabout simply Musician? By the time i get thru irish/breton/old time/folk/trad/french/pop/whathaveyou....could have gotten thru an entire session! ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 09:19 PM

I think "Celtic" really does a disservice to the vvarious unique qualities to the different musics of the "Celtic Nations", even amongst the Isish and Scots which may be the closest but still have their own little quirks which give them there respective charms. You wouldn't meet someone from Korea and say "OH I have a friend who's Chinese!"

I prefer "traditional Irish music" but it's given birth to the unfortunate buzz-word "TRAD" which has come to occupy every other sentence spoken by that segment of the population that needs to put the word "craic" in every other sentence.

"Oh yeah we have great CRAIC down at such-and-such pub. Mostly sit around and play TRAD abd drink THE BLACK STUFF. (OK there's a third one)I'm telling you, some of the best TRAD you'll ever hear is down at such-and-such. Great CRAIC,indeed!"

Sounds like the valley girls of the early '80s. That black stuff is totally gnarly, I mean, fer sure gag me with a spoon.

Rich


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,skylark
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 12:27 AM

Go to h*ll everybody, you have no lives, get over it it's Keltic, and it's Scot's-Irish because the rest of you f*cking losers and their brothers wouldn't know the difference between Irish, Scottish, or German music anyway. And The Celtics Still Suck! I say we embark on the ancient tradition of the KELTIC peoples and all get drunk.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 09:55 AM

When you have finished with all this barbarian Celtic thing, may I suggest we start with "Latin" music? What is this? Salsa?...ie. sauce?, Carlos Santana and Pavarotti singing Nessun Dorma, while The University Choir of San Antonio hums Ricky Martin's latest hit (in English)? Latin? I can almost picture the XII Legion Italica Victorica under Caius Leppidus Germanicus drunk and dancing along the Hadrian Wall...that's Latin music.


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:03 AM

yeh - the Valeria Victrix Rag - How Many Stadia to Babylon - or this (scroll to the bottom)...


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:47 AM

Why DO people insist on sawing sawdust..we all know what celtic music means..it does not mean the exclusion of anything..it means celtic..dead simple.

Aldus


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Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease??
From: Maryrrf
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM

That was a good point about the meaninglessness of the term "Celtic" - comparing it to "Latin" music which is just as meaningless - if not more. "Latin" music encompasses so many very different styles, different countries and different influences. I think of it as being mostly Spanish language but of course it isn't at all. I guess these generalized labels all present their difficulties.


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Mudcat time: 13 June 4:44 AM EDT

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