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BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye

GUEST,Catscradle 25 Oct 01 - 08:35 AM
JedMarum 25 Oct 01 - 08:51 AM
GUEST,Catscradle 25 Oct 01 - 08:54 AM
kendall 25 Oct 01 - 08:58 AM
JedMarum 25 Oct 01 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Catscradle 25 Oct 01 - 09:05 AM
GUEST,Catscradle 25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM
JedMarum 25 Oct 01 - 09:18 AM
GUEST,Catscradle 25 Oct 01 - 09:24 AM
kendall 25 Oct 01 - 09:27 AM
GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) 25 Oct 01 - 09:29 AM
MMario 25 Oct 01 - 09:30 AM
Allan C. 25 Oct 01 - 09:38 AM
Mrrzy 25 Oct 01 - 09:58 AM
JedMarum 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 AM
Donuel 25 Oct 01 - 10:10 AM
Donuel 25 Oct 01 - 10:40 AM
Mrrzy 25 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM
Donuel 25 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM
Amos 25 Oct 01 - 11:20 AM
Whistle Stop 25 Oct 01 - 11:28 AM
Donuel 25 Oct 01 - 11:41 AM
Amos 25 Oct 01 - 11:45 AM
wysiwyg 25 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM
GUEST,Catscradle 25 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM
MMario 25 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM
Kim C 25 Oct 01 - 12:37 PM
Amos 25 Oct 01 - 12:45 PM
Clinton Hammond 25 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM
Charley Noble 25 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM
Art Thieme 25 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM
kendall 25 Oct 01 - 01:27 PM
Mrrzy 25 Oct 01 - 01:31 PM
Amos 25 Oct 01 - 01:37 PM
Lonesome EJ 25 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM
Amos 25 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM
wysiwyg 25 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM
DougR 25 Oct 01 - 02:49 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 25 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM
Kim C 25 Oct 01 - 03:52 PM
MMario 25 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM
M.Ted 25 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM
IvanB 25 Oct 01 - 04:11 PM
Kim C 25 Oct 01 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Melani 25 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM
SharonA 25 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM
GUEST,Catscradle 25 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM
wysiwyg 25 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM
DougR 25 Oct 01 - 08:35 PM
MMario 25 Oct 01 - 08:40 PM
Grab 25 Oct 01 - 08:47 PM
Mark Cohen 25 Oct 01 - 09:12 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM
wysiwyg 25 Oct 01 - 09:45 PM
GUEST 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 PM
DougR 25 Oct 01 - 10:12 PM
JedMarum 25 Oct 01 - 11:49 PM
Ebbie 26 Oct 01 - 01:17 AM
wysiwyg 26 Oct 01 - 01:27 AM
DougR 26 Oct 01 - 01:33 AM
wysiwyg 26 Oct 01 - 01:47 AM
InOBU 26 Oct 01 - 07:24 AM
Whistle Stop 26 Oct 01 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,Catscradle 26 Oct 01 - 09:21 AM
Peg 26 Oct 01 - 09:38 AM
wysiwyg 26 Oct 01 - 10:09 AM
Kim C 26 Oct 01 - 10:16 AM
guinnesschik 26 Oct 01 - 10:18 AM
GUEST 26 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM
DougR 26 Oct 01 - 12:28 PM
MMario 26 Oct 01 - 12:31 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 26 Oct 01 - 12:32 PM
InOBU 26 Oct 01 - 01:03 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 26 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM
DougR 26 Oct 01 - 01:35 PM
Midchuck 26 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM
Kim C 26 Oct 01 - 01:48 PM
GUEST,Melani 26 Oct 01 - 02:28 PM
Steve in Idaho 26 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM
Troll 26 Oct 01 - 03:01 PM
Kim C 26 Oct 01 - 03:23 PM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 26 Oct 01 - 03:28 PM
Steve in Idaho 26 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM
wysiwyg 26 Oct 01 - 04:06 PM
GUEST,Celtic Soul 26 Oct 01 - 04:09 PM
Amergin 26 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM
Kim C 26 Oct 01 - 05:08 PM
wysiwyg 26 Oct 01 - 06:01 PM
GUEST 26 Oct 01 - 06:44 PM
DougR 26 Oct 01 - 07:10 PM
artbrooks 26 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM
Vanessa 26 Oct 01 - 11:12 PM
DougR 26 Oct 01 - 11:20 PM
Troll 27 Oct 01 - 12:19 AM
Vanessa 27 Oct 01 - 01:23 AM
GUEST,Catscradle 27 Oct 01 - 09:14 AM
Donuel 27 Oct 01 - 10:04 AM
GUEST,WYS (who ate my cookie?) 27 Oct 01 - 10:05 AM
GUEST 27 Oct 01 - 10:12 AM
GUEST,Catscradle 27 Oct 01 - 11:01 AM
JedMarum 27 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM
Steve in Idaho 27 Oct 01 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Catscradle 27 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM
wysiwyg 27 Oct 01 - 02:11 PM
GUEST,Catscradle 27 Oct 01 - 02:21 PM
GUEST,AfghansCan 27 Oct 01 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,All Warm and Fuzzy 27 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM
Amergin 27 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,Catscradle 27 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM
Amergin 27 Oct 01 - 03:00 PM
GUEST,Catscradle 27 Oct 01 - 03:06 PM
wysiwyg 27 Oct 01 - 03:09 PM
Steve in Idaho 27 Oct 01 - 03:38 PM
artbrooks 27 Oct 01 - 05:10 PM
GUEST,Catscradle 27 Oct 01 - 05:23 PM
DougR 27 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM
JedMarum 27 Oct 01 - 06:31 PM
Amergin 27 Oct 01 - 06:34 PM
GUEST 30 Oct 01 - 05:39 PM
Kim C 30 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM
DougR 30 Oct 01 - 08:49 PM
CaptainLewis 31 Oct 01 - 01:38 AM
GUEST 31 Oct 01 - 07:13 AM
GUEST 31 Oct 01 - 06:05 PM
Troll 31 Oct 01 - 11:14 PM
Genie 02 Nov 01 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 02 Nov 01 - 11:28 AM
Genie 02 Nov 01 - 11:45 AM
Genie 02 Nov 01 - 12:08 PM
GUEST,Get real 02 Nov 01 - 12:22 PM
Amos 02 Nov 01 - 12:31 PM
Amos 02 Nov 01 - 12:35 PM
Genie 02 Nov 01 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Get real 02 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM
GUEST,Kim C no cookie 02 Nov 01 - 02:06 PM
Amos 02 Nov 01 - 02:16 PM
DougR 02 Nov 01 - 02:53 PM
GUEST,Fiver 02 Nov 01 - 04:50 PM
GUEST 02 Nov 01 - 06:22 PM

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Subject: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:35 AM

As those who have suffered throughout the UK and Ireland as a result of the excesses of the Prevention of Terrorism Acts know, yesterday's action by the House, and today's anticipated action by the Senate, will bring in the most sweeping erasure of constitutional rights ever seen in the U.S.

Those who support this measure will, I'm sure, not be bothered by it, as they are "good citizens" who have nothing to fear from the police, the FBI, the CIA, Treasury, National Security Agency, et al.

Besides, they'll probably be too busy turning the rest of us in for our unAmerican activities.

If you thought the McCarthy era was bad...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:51 AM

What specifically makes you think so?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:54 AM

History.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: kendall
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:58 AM

Congress has, and has always had the power to change the Constitution. It takes 2/3 of them to agree, and they are still working for US. If you dont like what they are up to, flood their offices with protest mail.Vote for their opponent next time. A government of the people by the people, for the people..etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:01 AM

agreed Kendall!

... by the way Guest,Catscradle - do you think the IRA should disarm?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:05 AM

kendall,

What a patronizing attitude. What makes you presume I haven't flooded my Congressional representatives with protests against these measures being passed?

What the hell have you done to inform yourself about it? Listened to the Leno and Letterman Nightly News? Or maybe you are one of those citizens who gets their news from Mr. Maher?

If you knew jack shit about the US Constitution and US law, you would know it isn't amended in the way you state above. Which shows me just how important your country, your way of life, and your civil liberties are to you.

We are talking about draconian changes which haven't even seen a public debate, much less allowed for the citizens of our democratic republic an opportunity to vote for or against the people who are shoving these measures down our throats.

I hope you anti-terrorist fascists feel safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM

Wrong thread Jed.

This thread is about civil liberties being stripped in the name of anti-terrorism, not about whether I personally feel IRA disarmament is a good or a bad thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:18 AM

I don't believe you've made a point about civil liberties being striped ... I heard your complaint/protest about the sky falling, but you haven't provided any information supporting your arguement. You see, I don't believe that you are correct.

As to Kendall's point; there was nothing patronizing about it! What's more, he is correct - these things are resolved with votes not protests. I do not believe for a moment that Americans would stand for a real loss of civil liberties - we're just too set in our ways. Of course, New Yorkers did allow the car phone ban, and we still have the odd fight over Americans bearing arms - but these arguments ebb and flow at the periphery.

And of course the IRA question is germain to this discussion. They are being asked by an adversary (or hopefully) former adversary; to give up their weapons, to trust completely in their government to treat them with respect and to never threaten them again. This is a significant loss of personal freedom.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:24 AM

Too bad you are so fucking ignorant of your own bill of rights Jed.

In the US, we have constitutionally protected rights to "protest" and not just vote.

Known as the freedom of speech and right to assemble.

Try today's New York Times for the story, the Boston Globe, the Washington Post, any major news network's website.

Jesus a lot of you people shoot your mouths off here about things you don't have a fucking clue about. Don't you get embarrassed looking this stupid in public, in front of all your Mudcat friends?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: kendall
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:27 AM

Thanks for the support Jed, I also noticed the lack of specifics in his rant. Cats cradle, for you to say I dont know Jack shit about the constitution, when YOU dont know Jack shit about me is silly.I suggest you find out who you are attacking before you fire the next broadside!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work)
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:29 AM

Jed, Kendall, don't bother - his mind is made up, don't confuse him with facts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:30 AM

and a few specifics about what you are ranting about wouldn't hurt either. As Jed said - currently you are doing nothing but screaming that the sky is falling.

In short - you are acting like a typical net-troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Allan C.
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:38 AM

Out here in the wilderness of West Virginia the headlines are filled with stories about the parade plans for next weekend and the conviction of somebody for something he did eight months ago. Could someone please supply a link to whatever it is that this thread refers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:58 AM

However, just to add a little cold water to the mix, there is already documented serious erosion of personal freedoms for illegal immigrants, people of islamic or middle-eastern background who are not US citizens, and so on. The fear is quite real that it won't stop at a US passport and that even the freedoms of Americans will be next. My personal take on that is that when people abuse their freedoms in the name of personal rights and ride roughshod over their own responsibilities (which include respecting others' personal rights), that it would not be a bad thing if they lost some of those freedoms. And Americans by and large are MUCH more invested in their personal freedoms than they are in their social responsibilities - yes you have the right to own a gun, no you do not have the right to keep it in such a way that anybody other than you can get to it, for example. Or -even better- yes you have the right to own a gun but you have a responsibility not to, until they make guns that can't be abused. I would say that the answer is get a time machine, go back a generation, and raise the current set of adults with better manners. Failing that, I'm willing to give up one very American right - the right to privacy - in exchange for greater security. I kind of like the idea of what they are doing in, I think, Singapore - everybody has a credit card thingie, particular to them individually; any purchase is made with the card; you use the card to start your car; it communicates with other cards so where you are and with whom you are can be known. As long as I wasn't buying contraband or hanging out with thugs, I have lost nothing by this system. And I have gained the knowledge that the person who just drove up to my kids' school is likely on the up-and-up or they would have had to have walked, to avoid any crime being instantly electronically tied to them.

Yeah, I know, it would never work, because the government IS of the people, and people can't be trusted. Right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 AM

here is a link to the Reuters story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:10 AM

War powers are indeed in opposition to peace time rights. To fight and lose a humanitarian war is a poor alternative.For those who wish war you could not have a larger , longer and more dangerous war. Being an alarmist at this point is a silly notion at best. I do not think there can be more alarming circumstances.

The conflict is ultimately one of beliefs of fundamentalism against modern open societies. Do not assume victory. America is no less unsinkable than the Titanic. No doubt that statement will be unpopular but many empires have been brought down in the past by Barbarians at the gate and Trojan horses within the gates. It will be a conflict that will call upon Americans to fight and die perhaps in great numbers (10 to 60 million from bio contagions). If the 5 major cities in the US are uninhabitable from Nuke plant terrorism the game is over for at least 20 generations. Taking defense of our own facilities too lightly will be unfortunate in the extreme.
There will be time for memorials and civil rights later.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:40 AM

addendum: Due to the fact that the strategy of world court legitimacy and that the US is leading with a fist, escalation is a certainty. The US war commitee in charge that actually belongs more to GW's dad, has made all the predicted mistakes with exception to coalition efforts. To go forward from here is all we can do. WWIII looms ever larger with or without a Palestinian state.
I have no wish for a war, but given the principles and personalities involved I do not see it cooling down before the world is decimated of human population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM

WWIII is already happening. By definition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM

addendum: Due to the fact that the strategy of world court legitimacy is ignored and that the US is leading with a fist, escalation is a certainty. The US war commitee in charge that actually belongs more to GW's dad, has made all the predicted mistakes with exception to coalition efforts. To go forward from here is all we can do. WWIII looms ever larger with or without a Palestinian state.
I have no wish for a war, but given the principles and personalities involved I do not see it cooling down before the world is decimated of human population.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:20 AM

The anti-terrorism bill is a bipartisan compromise from similar measures approved earlier by the House and Senate. A chief difference is that the final legislation would have many of its provisions expire, or "sunset," in four years.

The White House had opposed any such limits, but was forced to accept them as part of the price of getting a measure that both the House and Senate could pass.

Many lawmakers said "sunsets" were a needed safeguard to help protect against future abuses of the war-time legislation.

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, a Vermont Democrat, said, "We did the White House a favor" by eliminating provisions that he called unconstitutional and said would have trampled civil liberties.

Changes made in the legislation included eliminating or revising provisions that would have allowed for the indefinite detention without charges of foreigners deemed security risks and the execution of search warrants without any notification.

ACLU DISSATISFIED

Regardless of the changes, the American Civil Liberties Union remained dissatisfied with the legislation, warning it still contained many provisions that could be used to violate the rights of law-abiding people.

Highlights of the legislation include provisions that:

--Make it a crime to knowingly harbor a terrorist.

--Authorize "roving wiretaps." This would grant court orders to wiretap any phone a suspected foreign terrorist might use rather than a specific phone. Many suspects now frustrate law enforcement by constantly switching phones.

--Make it easier for U.S. criminal investigators and intelligence officers to share intelligence information.

--Give the U.S. Treasury Department new powers to target foreign countries and banks deemed to be money-laundering threats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:28 AM

I'm not sure the person who opened this thread really deserves a response, but for Jed and others who have responded intelligently, I'll chime in. I am all in favor of the bill that was just passed by the House, and given that I am also a voting American citizen, I am exercising MY right to voice support for the initiative, rather than protest against it. Certainly we should watch these things so that we don't end up with our government having too much power over things that they should not have power over. However, I believe that one of the the primary functions of our government is to "provide for the common defense," and I want them to have the tools to do the job as well as it can be done. New threats call for new tools. I think we need to recognize that there are a number of entities out there who would try to destroy or curtail the freedoms we currently enjoy; and speaking for myself, the US government is not the one I'm most worried about.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:41 AM

Amos, thank you for the sunset information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:45 AM

It is usually advisable to find facts when confronted with panic-mongering ravers.

I do not like these measures, myself, and like even worse that they are necessary. But I think they are necessary for the reasons stated in light of the war that began on 9/11/.

Sorry times, pal.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM

Guest, Catscradle,

You seem to be new to Mudcat. If so, welcome to this place where everyone can be right.... for as long as it takes for the next person to post and be just as right, just as briefly. *G* And where we also discuss music, a LOT of music, on a good day, without regard for who is right, which is awful nice.

I looked over your posts to date. I saw someone start with some debate in the style that is an honored tradition here at Mudcat. Then I saw someone whose buttons had apparently been pushed (not by anyone's deliberate effort here), and who started to sling it the personal way, to make his/her point. And then here in this thread, a continuation of that personal-attack style.

We have just a few habitues here who debate in that style... that style is tolerated by most of the rest of us because we know them, first, as fellow musicians. We've learned to take the salt they pass along. I wouldn't say (speaking just for myself) that most of us LIKE that style, though, or find it effective in making a point.

Well, it's none of my business, but as someone willing to be friend, I would just say, perhaps you want to get to know the place and the people a little before posting in a fashion that causes the reactions you've gotten here so far? And let the rest of us get to know you a bit as well?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM

Apparently the lot of you couldn't find your own way to an on-line news website to save your lives.

Anti-terrorism legislation passed the House yesterday, and will pass the Senate today with (likely) less than 5 hours scheduled for debate, and will be on Bush's desk by next week.

Other "new" facets of the government's claim to have a right to spy on it's own citizenry, without judicial oversight I might add, includes the right to secretly search your home, and to tap your email account, and follow your web searches.

Can someone tell me when the US Congress passed an Act of War please?

No? I thought not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM

No - several people have been out to the sites - probably all of us. We (politely) asked for details. Your putting of qoutes around "new" seems to indicate that you realize these are NOT technically new procedures - but (if I understand the bill correctly) a four year proviso to prevent STATE law from preventing FEDERAL investigation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:37 PM

It sounds to me like they can only spy on those members of the citizenry who could be suspected of breaking the law. Good. Go for it. There are too many people who get off already on "technicalities" anyhow. As far as I know I am not suspected of associating with any suspected terrorists so personally I am not worried about being spied on.

As far as criminals go, we don't spy on them enough. So there. pffffffttt!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:45 PM

Catscradle:

If you read the post above at 1120AM, you will probably recognize it is from a news site covering the story.

I suggest you read WYSIWYG's post and stop rolling around in your own sense of righteous superiority like a dog in its own feces. It is unbecoming and makes you look like a raving lunatic, when I at least am quite sure you are not a lunatic, at least.

Your civil liberties are safe here, obviously, no matter how odiously employed.

Regards,

A


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Subject: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM

How's about a few specifics (other than the right to spy) for us Non mericas who are curious...

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Charley Noble
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM

Oh, I expect the new provisions, when signed into law and implemented, will be abused by the current administration. That is sad, and hopefully the ACLU will still be around to help, but international terrorism within our borders is too easy to get away with now as has become all too clear.

Thanks, Amos, for the update.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Art Thieme
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM

Is this about civil liberties or is it about social Contract????. I think the latter.

Extaordinary times often necessitate extraordinary necessities. Elevated paranoia, Catscradle, is a sad by-product of 9/11. I'm with Jed and Kendall. I trust the Constitution to ultimately re-swing any pendulum back to it's former less invasive position.

Art Thieme


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: kendall
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:27 PM

I must admit to Catscradle that the presidents option of suspending Habeas Corpus is troublesome to me. Abraham Lincoln did it, but, dubya is no Lincoln. The matter of search warrants? They still need a judge to sign it, and the 4th amendment is still quite clear on this. Among other questions about the constitution, being required to quote the 4th amendment was one of the requirements we had to pass before graduating from the U.S. Treasury Dept. school of law enforcement & Criminal investigation.It was very important. Here in Maine, there was a big hoorah about checking into the background of teachers, including fingerprinting, to weed out the undesireables, and some of those teachers raised hell, some threatened to quit, some did quit. Why? I knew one of them, she had been hospitalized for a nervous breakdown some years ago, and she was afraid it would be grounds for removal.

In order to deal with foreign nationals on the high seas, I had to pass a security exam. Big deal! What's more important? Talking to Russians or teaching children? Old Maine proverb, If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:31 PM

Nice try, WYSIWYG!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:37 PM

Some more facts to offset the raving:

http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.final.102401.html

House debate over USA Act:
http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.debate.102401.html

How your House member voted:
http://clerkweb.house.gov/cgi-bin/vote.exe?year=2001&rollnumber=398

Background:
http://www.wartimeliberty.com/search.pl?topic=legislation

---

http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47858,00.html
 
   USA Act Stampedes Through
   By Declan McCullagh (declan@wired.com)
   2:00 a.m. Oct. 25, 2001 PDT
 
   WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Senate is set to end a month-long debate over
   balancing freedom and security on Thursday by granting police more
   surveillance power and sharply curtailing Americans' privacy.
 
   Since the House of Representatives already has voted for the
   anti-terrorism bill (400 KB), the widely expected Senate endorsement
   would send the labyrinthine legislation to President Bush for his
   signature later this week.
 
   Approval in both chambers -- the House voted 357-66 for the so-called
   USA Act on Wednesday -- is set to take place as fears of anthrax have
   snarled the usual course of business on Capitol Hill and temporarily
   shuttered most of Congress' office buildings.
 
   The clandestine process that Senate and House leaders used to usher
   versions of the bill through the legislative process with little
   opportunity for public debate drew condemnations from a minority of
   politicians.
 
   "The report has just come to us," said Rep. Robert Scott (D-Virginia)
   during the debate that began Tuesday. "It would be helpful if we would
   wait for some period of time so that we can at least review what we
   are voting on, but I guess that is not going to stop us, so here we
   are."
 


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM

Cat'scradle's concern is a legitimate one, even if his way of saying it is a bit abrasive. We are all aware that abrogations of rights, such as the elimination of the necessity of a search warrant, increase the potential of abuse by law enforcement to the point where "terrorists" are not the only targets, but the same rules may soon be applied to anarchists, communists, Baha'ists, and other Enemies of the State. The definition of "Enemies of the State" being subject to the disgression of the individual law enforcement officer", these extraordinary measures call for careful and continuous scrutiny. We in America have been subject to gradual change and re-definition of our basic rights since the Constitution was written. Where the bounds were obviously overstepped (Prohibition Amendment), our system has shown the remarkable ability to self-correct. Other abridgements in the name of crisis (the No-Knock Law in the "war on drugs", the displacement of Japanese Americans in WW 2) have either become standard procedure, or dismissed as one-time aberrations. Of the two, the changes that become standard procedure are most frightening to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM

Some positive things have also been introduced over the years -- for example, the Miranda Act. But the price of having a freedom-based system where constraints are the exceptions is that you have to stay awake and notice when the mealymouths are grabbing another inch under their over-used shopworn guidon of "Necessity".

It would be a fine thing to see an indepth chronological analysis of erosions deployed since the Bill of Rights was adopted.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM

Hey, Mrrzy, if you give people a heads-up and they still insist on being pooheads-- well, at least it's clear then!

But I was remembering a couple of wonderful members who entered on the wrong foot, then pulled it out of their mouths and (sometimes) returned under another name and contributed great stuff.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:49 PM

"I hope you anti-terrorist fascists feel safe."

Well, GUEST Catscradle, I dont' know any fascists here. Perhaps there are some, I just don't knowof any. But I think we are all anti-terrorist minded. Well, maybe there's one among us that's not.

I agree with Jed, Kendall, Susan and others. I think it was necessary legislation and I don't believe it will be abused.

Perhaps your vicious attack on Kendall, and others, stems from disappointment that more Mudcatters did not immediately rally to your cause. Whatever. It's not a very effective way to solicit friendly response.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM

Bearing in mind the reactions I have had when I have suggested the Provisional IRA might yield up their semtex, I don't think DougR's claim that "we are all anti-terrorist minded" would have stood much scrutiny before September 11.

Quick law usually turns out to be bad law, but even so, I wouldn't have thought that the measures now being acted were a huge encroachment on civil liberty. (Of course, I live in a country where we are not even allowed to bear arms.)

What should be of greater concern is that while these measures will cause minor inconvenience to the innocent, they will do nothing whatsoever to constrain the terrorists. Moreover, the present ham-fisted onslaught in Afghanistan will ensure a continuing supply of terrorists ready to give their lives causing havoc in simple ways. Remember they needed only a few penkives to panic the strongest nation on earth. God knows what they might they do with pointed sticks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:52 PM

It wasn't the boxcutters, Fionn, it was the threat of a bomb. Most of us who are ambulatory would probably be willing to take on someone with a widget, but if that someone said, hey, I'm gonna blow this place up.... now that makes it a different ballgame, don't it?

And I imagine the disbelief factor was pretty strong too. If anyone on those first two planes had known for sure what was going to happen, the outcome -might- have been different. Here lately in the news we have had reports of one unruly airline passenger being taken down by other passengers, and someone threatening a bus driver was also fought off by other passengers. People are more alert now, I think, and more willing to get involved.

Believe it or not, I too have my doubts about the outcome of the current situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM

also - up until this point - hi-jacking were hi-jackings - they (the passengers) expected a hostage situation, not a kamikaze attack on a building.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM

I think you've all been trolled again, likely by the same person who started the Anti-american/anti-Israeli threads which oddly came only slightly before the 9/11 assaults--one nice thing about the new bill is that it will allow law enforcement to ferret out anonymous trolls who step over the line--


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: IvanB
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:11 PM

Just to be pedantic, Congress cannot change the Constitution. They can, by 2/3 vote propose amendments, which must be approved by 3/4 of the states.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:20 PM

You know, you're right. There's that pesky process of ratification that can take months, even years...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM

Since I don't knowingly hang around with terrorists, and my profile is such that I doubt I would be suspected of such, I am not too concerned about the standard sort of investigative things like wiretaps, etc. What disturbs me deeply is the news that the four suspects currently being held have been so adamantly silent that the use of strong-arm interrogation is being considered. I think there are some things we really must not do, even in the name of self-defense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: SharonA
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM

Thank you, IvanB, for pointing that out!!!

KimC, I'm guessing that, now, even the threat by an airline hijacker that he has a bomb will keep him from being rushed by the plane's passengers... now that they know that the hijacker intends to kill them anyway. Now we know we're on equal footing with them in that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by fighting back. Were I in the situation, my only hope (since I'd have no hope for my life) would be that the plane's pieces would land harmlessly in a field, just like in Somerset County, PA.

It may indeed be time to reassess our civil liberties in light of the current world situation, but I feel sure that we won't be willing to give up any freedoms unless absolutely necessary... maybe not even then!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM

Have any of you ever heard of the right of dissent from the point of view/opinion/policies of the government?

That is the danger to civil liberties. If you want to change something through the conventional political process in the US, you have constitutionally protected means of disagreeing with and changing government policy, laws, even the Constitution itself. Citizen groups can and do exercise those rights all the time in the US.

However, governments being what governments are, even in democracies where those rights of political dissent are protected, governments go after political dissenters illegally, and go to extraordinary lengths to silence them.

That is what the McCarthy era was all about. The COINTELPRO spy ring which targeted civil rights and anti-war activists in the 1950s and 1960s,in violation of many people's civil and constitutional rights (like Martin Luther King).

As someone has already pointed out, these draconian laws will do nothing to prevent domestic terrorism, and certainly won't make a dent in organized crime. So why do we need these laws?

Simple. To silence political dissent, the same way the government attempted to silence it during the McCarthy era. The new Office of Homeland Security is yesterday's House UnAmerican Activities Committee.

It looks to me as if Mudcat is a forum of pretty conservative people who aren't very politically aware of what is going on in the world, or in the US.

The laws being railroaded through Congress right now are very dangerous to our nation's values and way of life. If you don't believe those rights constitutionally guaranteed you in the Bill of Rights to be all that important because you don't think you'll be harmed by their suspension, you might want to do a bit of history reading, just to find out what will happen when the FBI come to your door for you or a loved one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM

The bill has passed the Senate with only one dissenting vote--Sen. Reingold of Wisconsin. It will be on Bush's desk for signature tomorrow.n At least 66 House Reps had the guts to stand up against this.

So--no need to worry about terrorists now!

But just try and get a cop to answer a call when you are a victim of violent crime in Any City, USA and you may be shit of luck. They'll be guarding your politicians, CEOs of major multi-nationals, your "historic " sites, and The Sacred Mall.

Nice to see everyone giving away their constitutionally protected civil rights to support fascism--those values that REALLY matter in the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM

One of the problems with ignoring troll-posts is that sometimes their words stand as the "factoid" on something, and the misinformation can thus become part of prevailing "wisdom" over time.

So, to correct the impression left above:
I think a review of the posts in the "Political Compass" thread would show that Mudcatters are actually mostly libertarians, and mostly left-leaning libertarians with some delightful and intelligent exceptions over to the right. Even the righties seem to be pretty libertarian, though. This is also clear from the number of posts at Mudcat on a weekly basis that say something like, "You can't control me!" or words to that effect.

Here, let's make just this a music thread: "Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Troll-Posts of Life."

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:35 PM

Funny, Susan! We could probably all use a little humor at this point.

Guest: you obviously don't spend much time at the Mudcat. Your line, "it looks to me that the Mudcat is a forum of pretty conservative people ..." gave almost as big a laugh as Susan's last sentence did.

I would describe the make-up of the Mudcat a bit different than Susan though. I'd guess: some Libertarians, lots of Liberals, and a few Conservatives.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: MMario
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:40 PM

As currently private organizations, schools, business, etc can all record my phone conversations legally - I'm not too afraid of what the Feds are going to do if they tap my line and do the same.

I believe it has also been ruled that the contents of e-mail are NOT covered by the statutes that give privacy to "snail-mail"


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Grab
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:47 PM

Interesting the way we get onto history here. I guess CatsCradle doesn't trust the US government to have learnt anything since it suspended the rights of Japanese-Americans in WW2, went after suspected Communists under McCarthy, or hammered on anti-war protesters during the Vietnam era. If you really think your elected representative would let all that happen again on his/her watch, then you're really elected a sorry bunch of assholes, haven't you? And then you think that no judge will do anything about it either? Alternatively, if you don't think that every government official is completely off their nut, you can live with it.

Please do remember that 11th Sept was a bolt out of a clear sky. No intelligence-gathering anywhere had picked it up. If you've got your own opinions on how intelligence-gathering could be improved, let's hear them. You've told us plenty about what you're against, but not word one about what you're for. This doesn't help your argument.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:12 PM

Uh, Graham, where did you get your information that "no intelligence-gathering anywhere had picked it up"? I don't believe it, since information on a similar plan was picked up in the Philippines about two years ago, maybe more.

Sorry, folks, but though I disagree with his manner I'm in agreement with Catscradle on this one. I absolutely do believe that some of my elected representatives would let that happen again (except for Patsy Mink, who voted no). I'm not naive enough to think that the government has learned anything from those affairs, except how to do it better and with more arrogance. We do still have a Constitution, but Mr. Bush and the people behind him are trying their best to ignore it, as far as I can see. Wartime necessities? The Constitution still says that Congress has the power to declare war. I'd call this a blatant power grab, and money grab---look at the billions that were just given to Ford and IBM et al in order to "stimulate the economy", with nothing given directly to the ones who actually lost their jobs. Oh, well, I don't expect anybody to agree with me, but that's the way I see it. Enough ranting, I'm going to the beach.

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:15 PM

The answer is yes, you've really elected a sorry bunch of assholes.

Worst part of it is, you're such a sorry bunch of assholes yourselves, those politicians appear to you to be intelligent, ethical, and just defenders of your liberty because, after all, they think just like you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:45 PM

My description referred to a quadrant-model that was linked in a recent thread, and if I recall right most of the Liberals also were Libertarians. You know-- it had an axis, and you plotted your dot onto it. The axes were Libertarian/Authoritarian and Left/Right (or was it Liberal/Conservative)... anyhow I recall a whole BOATLOAD of people identifiying as leftie-libertarians. (Maybe all the conservatives posted after I quit reading the thread!)

But on the whole, the last person I would think of as normally being willing to see civil rights eroded would be a Mudcatter. In fact in a number of recent threads, I've seen some folks I know personally, who are as aggressively libertarian as you can get, post that in these times, they favor a tightening up WITH OVERSIGHTS in place to monitor, and with stopping points built in for any measures enacted.

Just because some people are not willing to post in response to a hate-monger does not mean they agree with the view of that person, or disagree with it for that matter. Some people, as our Guest may have an opportunity to learn, just will not discuss things they care about deeply with someone who cannot discuss in a civil fashion.

It reminds me of a time our daughter asked me to formulate some complicated response to some psych questions. It sounded like an interesting topic and she almost got me going. Then I said, "Waiddaminnit! Is this for a class? Are you interviewing a bunch of people just to see how they react to being interviewed, or is this a real question?" Yes, she admitted, she was just collecting data on how people act in interviews, with a "cover" question as the basis. "Forget it!" I said. "You want thinking at that level from me, it's gonna cost you! This brain is not for free borrowing!"

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 PM

Here is the story from Scripps Howard News Service:

WASHINGTON - Do you use your local library's computers or a cyber-cafe to surf the Internet? If a suspected terrorist used the computer before you, the FBI can use ``sneak and peek'' warrants to collect your surfing habits and look at your e-mails.

Do you rent rooms? If that quiet upstairs boarder turns out to be a suspected terrorist, you could be charged with the new crime of ``harboring'' a terrorist.

Do you make a lot of large cash deposits in the bank? The CIA and other intelligence agencies will be alerted to find out if you are involved in money laundering.

Those are just a few of the sweeping changes that will affect Americans under the antiterrorism bill that Congress sent to President Bush on Thursday. It vastly expands the powers of the FBI and CIA to monitor Internet surfing, intercept e-mails and look at bank transactions and other personal records of Americans just on mere suspicion that someone is involved in terrorist activities.

Congressional leaders say the new law - dubbed the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing the Appropriate Tools Required To Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism, or USA Patriot Act - closes loopholes that have allowed terrorists to operate cells in the United States like those involved in the Sept. 11 attacks.

Critics, ranging from the Electronic Privacy Information Center, the Gun Owners of America and the American Civil Liberties Union, say the USA Patriot Act is so broadly drafted it could disrupt the lives of ordinary Americans.

Lawmakers admitted the powers they are giving the government are extraordinary, and sought to dampen civil liberties concerns by including ``sunset'' provisions in the legislation, allowing many to exist only until Dec. 31, 2005.

Some even admitted they expect the new law will cause problems. ``There will be some abuses, and if there are abuses we can reverse it. It sunsets in four years,'' said Sen. Paul Wellstone, D-Minn.

In most cases, federal agents will have to get advance wiretap approval from the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court. About the only thing known publicly about the seven-member panel created in 1978 that sits secretly in the basement of the Justice Department is that it has never rejected an FBI request for a secret warrant. Open warrants, much more common, get approval in regular federal courts.

Here's how the USA Patriot Act could affect your life:

- The FBI is given new authority for Internet searches, and can ask the secret court for a warrant to monitor Internet activities of anyone suspected of terrorism. If that involves use of Internet connections at libraries or cyber-cafes, the FBI can collect all the e-mails and information on Internet sites visited, but would have to get another warrant to read e-mail texts of those who aren't targets of the investigation. ``The net is cast so broadly, a lot of innocent communications are caught up,'' said David Sobel, general counsel of the Electronic Privacy Information Center.

- The FBI is authorized to investigate anyone believed linked either to international terrorism or someone involved in ``domestic terrorism.'' Although not thought to be directly involved in terrorism themselves, these people could be charged with ``harboring'' a suspected terrorist, or ``providing material support'' to a suspect. Anyone involved in providing assistance to a suspected terrorist, no matter how minor, is affected.

- Make a deposit that a bank clerk thinks is suspicious or in violation of some state or federal law, or that involves more than $10,000, and the reports will be turned over to federal intelligence agencies, including the CIA, without any notification to you. Under a 1992 law, banks file such reports only with the Treasury Department. The USA Patriot Act allows intelligence agencies to obtain this information to track money-laundering activities.

- Credit, medical and student records can be retrieved secretly by federal agencies on anyone suspected of involvement in terrorism, after approval by the secret court, regardless of state privacy laws.

- The USA Patriot Act defines domestic terrorism as ``an attempt to intimidate or coerce a civilian population'' or change ``the policy of the government by intimidation or coercion.'' The American Civil Liberties Union says that definition is so broad it could cover political dissent by activists involved in protests against world trade, animal rights, or environmental concerns if police conclude their activities endanger human lives.

- Using a secret warrant, the FBI can break into offices or homes to conduct secret searches. Agents don't need probable cause, just a suspicion of involvement in a crime. Laura Murphy, director of the Washington office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said that poses major Fourth Amendment search and seizure concerns. There would be no notification of what was found in the secret searches.

- Immigrants and non-citizens could be detained for up to seven days before charges are filed. Those charged with immigration violations, including overstaying visas, can be deported. If their home countries refuse to take them back, they can be held indefinitely.

- Information collected during grand jury proceedings could be shared by the FBI with the CIA, giving the CIA domestic information it has been restricted in the past from receiving.

William Webster, a former director of both the FBI and the CIA, said that while Congress is granting very broad powers to federal agencies, there's a check requiring federal judges to review what federal agents are doing.

``I'm comfortable as long as the courts have a role to play,'' said Webster, a former judge.

John Velleco, director of federal affairs for Gun Owners of America, said the government already has sufficient powers to investigate and deal with terrorists.

Jeff Kerr, general counsel for People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, said his organization is concerned that police could use the new domestic terrorism provisions against social activists.

``There's a fine line that has to be guarded very carefully here,'' he said. ``Something that is educational to one person may be coercive to someone else - a boycott, for example, against any industry. Is that intimidating and coercive?''


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:12 PM

Long post, Guest. Had you supplied a name I would have read it.

Those of you who are so afraid of your civil liberties being trampled upon; how would you feel if the government announced that from now on, all mail sent overseas will be censored, and all mail received in this country from other countries will suffer the same fate?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:49 PM

GUEST/Catscradle -
All this wind up just to deliver that limp piece of trash you call journalism? Give me strength! Just another lunatic passing off his anger as intelligent conversation.

Go back to the beach and finish baking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:17 AM

"one nice thing about the new bill is that it will allow law enforcement to ferret out anonymous trolls who step over the line--" Neat touch, M.Ted! *G*

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:27 AM

I tried and tried to kiss my civil liberties goodbye, this evening. They kept coming back! I couldn't get away from them to save my life! I think they're stalking me!

And I thought the Ten Commandments were tough to break!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:33 AM

Oh, Susan, do you REALLY think the Ten Commandments are tough to break? Boy, I got to really concentrate not to break a couple of them! I'd say coveting thy neighbor's wife might be the most difficult except I'm surrounded by widows and divorcees. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:47 AM

Well, Doug, I find them actually pretty hard to break. For instance I used to be quite a liar-- this was many years ago. I can't lie now, at all. It just doesn't work. The lie-function appears to have been taken offline. Even when I can talk myself into one, for logic's sake, i just can;t seem to do it. It's very embarrassing-- people keep asking me what I THINK, and there I go! I think the least God could have done was teach me the lessons on tact FIRST-- but no! Gotta build that track while the train is runnning full tilt! Dang!

But civil liberties are another matter entirely. They actually do follow you around! I guess it's because they have become a complex set of expectations and obligations... as soon as I try to get shut of one, it bites me in the ass and says, "Oh no you don't, I'm right here!"

Take the right of free speech for instance. I TRY to keep silent (People might talk! I have a position in the community to protect! *G*) But there are all these opportunities to spill it, just BEGGING me to spew-- what can I do????

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:24 AM

I thought this might be helpful... Larry Déjà Vu >The FBI's Assault on Civil Liberties >By Ronnie Gilbert > >For the second time in my life -- at least -- a group that I belong to is >being investigated by the FBI. The first was the Weavers. The Weavers >were a recording industry phenomenon. In 1950 we recorded a couple of >songs from >our American/World folk music repertoire, Leadbelly's "Goodnight Irene" and >(ironically) the Israeli "Tzena, Tzena, Tzena" and sold millions of records >for the almost-defunct record label. Folk music entered the mainstream, and >the Weavers were stars. > >By 1952 it was over. The record company dropped us, eager television >producers stopped knocking on our door. The Weavers were on a private yet >well-publicized roster of suspected entertainment industry reds. The FBI >came a-calling. > >This week, I just found out that Women in Black, another group of peace >activists I belong to, is the subject of an FBI investigation. Women in >Black is a loosely knit international network of women who vigil against >violence, often silently, each group autonomous, each group focused on the >particular problems of personal and state violence in its part of the world. > >Because my group is composed mostly of Jewish women, we focus on the Middle >East, protesting the cycle of violence and revenge in Israel and the >Palestinian Territories. > >The FBI is threatening my group with a Grand Jury investigation. Of what? >That we publicly call the Israeli military's occupation of the mandated >Palestine lands illegal? So does the World Court and the United Nations. > >That destroying hundreds of thousands of the Palestinians' olive and fruit >trees, blocking roads and demolishing homes promotes hatred and >terrorism in the Middle East? Even President Bush and Colin Powell have >gotten around to saying so. So what is to investigate? That some of us are >in contact with >activist Palestinian peace groups? This is bad? > >The Jewish Women in Black of Jerusalem have stood vigil every Friday for 13 >years in protest against the Occupation; Muslim women from Palestinian peace >groups stand with them at every opportunity. We praise and honor them, these >Jewish and Arab women who endure hatred and frequent abuse from extremists >on both sides for what they do. We are not alone in our admiration. >Jerusalem Women in Black is a nominee for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize, along >with the Bosnia Women in Black, now ten years old. > >If the FBI cannot or will not distinguish between groups who collude in >hatred and terrorism, and peace activists who struggle in the full light of >day against all forms of terrorism, we are in serious trouble. > >I have seen such trouble before in my lifetime. It was called McCarthyism. >In the hysterical atmosphere of the early Cold War, anyone who had >signed a peace petition, who had joined an organization opposing violence >or racism or had tried to raise money for the refugee children of >the Spanish Civil >War, in other words who had openly advocated what was not popular at the >time, was fair game. > >In my case, the FBI visited The Weavers' booking agent, the recording >company, my neighbors, my dentist husband's patients, my friends. In the >waning of our career, the Weavers were followed down the street, accosted >onstage by drunken "patriots", warned by friendly hotel employees to keep >the door open if we rehearsed in anyone's room so as not to become targets >for the vice squad. It was nasty. Every two-bit local wannabe G-man joined >the dragnet searching out and identifying "communist spies." > >In all those self-debasing years how many spies were pulled in by that >dragnet? Nary a one. Instead it pulled down thousands of teachers, union >members, scientists, journalists, actors, entertainers like us, who saw our >lives disrupted, our jobs, careers go down the drain, our standing in the >community lost, even our children harassed. A scared population soon shut >their mouths up tight. > >Thus came the silence of the 1950s and early 60s, when no notable voice of >reason was heard to say, "Hey, wait a minute. Look what we're doing to >ourselves, to the land of the free and the home of the brave," when not one >dissenting intelligence was allowed a public voice to warn against zealous >foreign policies we'd later come to regret, would be regretting now, if our >leaders were honest. > >Today, in the wake of the worst hate crime of the millennium, a dragnet is >out for "terrorists" and we are told that certain civil liberties may have >to be curtailed for our own security. Which ones? I'm curious to know. The >First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech or of the press? The >right of people peaceably to assemble? Suddenly, deja vu - haven't I been >here before? Hysterical neo-McCarthyism does not equal security, never will. > >The bitter lesson September 11's horrific tragedy should have taught us and >our government is that only an honest re-evaluation of our foreign policies >and careful, focused and intelligent intelligence work can hope to combat >operations like the one that robbed all of us and their families of 6,000 >decent working people. We owe the dead that, at least. As for Women in >Black, we intend to keep on keeping on. > >Ronnie Gilbert is a veteran of the folk music band The Weavers and a Bay >Area civil rights organizer and peace activist. >


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 08:49 AM

Susan, thanks for your continued efforts to promote civility. I think most of us prefer to discuss these things without resorting to name calling and other childish behavior.

Any power given to the government can potentially be abused. At some points in our history (like in the 50's communist witch hunts), the US government has abused its authority pretty badly. However, most of us still prefer to have a government, and we want to give our government the tools it needs to function effectively. Naturally, we must be vigilant to make sure that our government does not misuse the tools we have given it, and trample our rights in the process. But if we go to the other extreme and render our government ineffective in dealing with the numerous threats we are facing, we stand to lose our rights at the hands of others.

I guard my rights as zealously as anyone I know. I have examined the provisions of this bill, and I am comfortable that it does not, in and of itself, curtail any of my rights, or those of my fellow citizens. If there end up being problems in the implementation of the law, given the freedom we have to examine the workings of our government and communicate our concerns, I feel that we will have the ability to make the modifications that may be necessary in the future.

As long as there is appropriate Congressional and judicial oversight, I want the FBI to be on the case, looking for those who would threaten my life and way of life. Denying the FBI and other law enforcement agencies the tools they need to accomplish their mission would not be in my best interests, and would ultimately lead to a diminution of the rights I currently enjoy. I have no problem with this bill.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:21 AM

What I see being repeated here over and over by you lobotomized libertarians, is that so long as the government takes care of you and yours, you could give a shit what happens to anybody else.

Until "anybody else" becomes you or someone you know.

I'm sure all of you believe there is no danger of that happening to you, because you don't associate with "terrorists".

Therefore, as your pretzel logic goes, you have nothing to fear from the fascist tactics adopted by your government to police immigrants and political dissidents.

Political dissidents like Pete Seeger and Ronnie Gilbert. Or Dick Gaughan. Or Joan Baez.

No--I know none of you travel in circles with people who are associated with the likes of those terrorists.

Or had folk musicians who might be associated with them stay in your homes, or in the homes of your friends.

Or supported any of those folk musicians with your hard earned cash.

No--none of you lobotomized libertarians are in any danger there.

You motherfuckers just better keep your prayer chains going that the government doesn't decide to go after any of the "terrorist" folk you've all been associating yourselves with, supporting financially, befriending, etc on their lists, or maybe the FBI will be coming to visit YOU in the not too distant future.

Without your knowledge, of course.

And you, left with all your civil liberties and no court to defend them in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Peg
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 09:38 AM

Ah yes; I have always found Dick Gaughan's album "Handful of Earth" to be a fine upstanding example of tyrannical fascist propaganda...

Why, I hear in some countries it is labelled "Handful of Scorched Earth."


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:09 AM

Well allright then!

*G*

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:16 AM

Lookit. I am sick to death of all the complete and total bullshit that keeps getting perpetuated because of this latest international disaster. I am sick to death of being the bad guy because I'm an American, or a Christian, or a conservative, or a Southerner, or a white person... People like Catscradle are not helping the matter any by carping about this stuff, and attacking people. Yes, you are attacking people, I do happen to be a libertarian with ALL of my brain and I don't appreciate being called a motherfucker.

I have fucking HAD it with all of this. As of this morning, law-abiding citizens of this country have every liberty they had yesterday, and I expect we will again tomorrow. So go screw yourself. You probably don't even live here anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: guinnesschik
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 10:18 AM

Nice touch, Jed. Catscradle.... so? Your point is? What are YOU doing about this loss of civil liberties, besides trying to rile up a normally peaceful community of folks who have had enough infighting lately? Are you contemplating a degree in journalism?

Those evil people who sit in power, trying to keep this nation from falling apart, are coming to take YOUR civil liberties first. You have alerted them to your presence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM

I'm sure none of us has associated with terrorists like Ani di Franco, Holly Near, Utah Phillips, Larry Long, from the US.

Or terrorists with republican and nationalist associations from Ireland...

Donal Lunny, Andy Irvine, Sharon Shannon, Christy Moore, Luka Bloom...

Its a long list folks. A damn long list, and I think Catscradle is dead on.

If you think those of us in a safe little folk music cyber community are completely safe in light of the US Patriot Act, maybe we should think again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:28 PM

Just behave yourself, Catscradle, and the boogieman won't get you!

I'm a Republican myself, so I'm sure I won't be on any witchhunt list. Now Kendall ...that's another matter.

Right on, Jed!

Hey, Peg! I wondered where you had sauntered off to. I haven't seen you posting lately, and several of these threads should be enough to have your hair stand on end.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: MMario
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:31 PM

I think some people can't tell the difference between a terrorist and an activist. They are very different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 12:32 PM

I own a bunch of Beatles records. I bet the FBI's been watching me for the last 21 years, since I bought my first Beatles album at the age of 13, only two weeks before John Lennon died. That must be what that funny noise on my cell phone was, even though it disappeared when I bought a new headset...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:03 PM

Well most of us can tell the difference between an activist and a terrorist, but as the note from Ronnie Gilbert shows, the FBI may not be among that most who can...
Cheers Larry


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM

Oh, and I forgot, I do own a Utah Phillips album. And about three Joan Baez CDs. Reckon I'm in BIG trouble now. And I won't even talk about Mister... he was one-a-them longhair freaks back in the 70s. And a Springsteen fan. You all know Springsteen intentionally failed his Army physical. I guess we won't be hearing from him no more either.

Well, I reckon I better go to kissing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:35 PM

Kim: You are doomed! :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Midchuck
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:38 PM

DougR: The real question is, have you coveted your neighbor's ass?

P.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 01:48 PM

What exactly do you mean by "neighbor's ass"? Do you mean the round gluteal portion of the neighbor him/herself, or said portion of the neighbor's Significant Other?

Oh... you meant "donkey"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Melani
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 02:28 PM

Gee, Doug, maybe we can arrange a witch hunt just for you. It's almost Halloween, and I wouldn't want you to feel left out of the festivities.;>)

I seem to recall that censorship of mail, at least mail coming from the military, is routine in wartime as a security measure. I have no problem with extraordinary measures to protect fighting troops--they're in enough danger already.

As for snooping around in my email, they're probably doing it already--certainly on this computer, since I'm at work in a national park. All NPS email goes first through a substation in Washington DC, and people get severely nailed for using it for other than official business. I am not an NPS employee, but I am using their computer. This is my coffee break time. I do have an NPS email address, and I am careful NEVER to use if for anything but business. Someday I'm probably going to get nailed for 9,000 visits to Mudcat during working hours--even if I don't post, the computer automatically records where I've been.

Here in the Bay Area, Pacifica station KPFA used to often run a recording of Bill Mandel's testimony before the House Un-American Committee in the '50's. I remember hearing some of that stuff as a small child when it was happening, and everybody was pleading "5th Amendment." Bill Mandel, who was perfectly legally entitled to his poltical views, told HUAC to go to hell, and quoted the Constitution extensively. Now Bill can certainly be a bit of a fruitcake (my husband once called him "the Bay Area's leading Soviet apologist"), but in that moment, he was a true American hero.

So I guess I'm not too worried about my civil liberties, because I have nothing to hide, and if they mess with me, I feel capable of defending myself and others. Maybe I'm being incredibly naive, but at least they'd know they'd been in a fight. I am not really capable of defending myself against exploding hijacked planes and mail-order anthrax, so I have to let the government deal with that. But I will certainly keep an eye on them while they do it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 02:51 PM

Hmmmmmmmmm - Susan you can kick me anytime *G*

And for our little provocateur - -

and I promised Max that I really was trying to do better in my responses to Trolls (and I don't mean my dear friend Troll in Florida)

I've never, to my knowledge, had sexual intercourse with my mother, and still can't define the word fucker and what it connotes in your diatribe, so unless you are willing to come stand face to face with me and say these things - how about you just admit that your dad was Joseph McCarthy and you're filled with guilt about it.

There was that better?

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Troll
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:01 PM

Jeezis, I'm in real trouble!
Utah Phillips was one of my character references when I joined the Navy in '63.
They're gonna get me for sure!
Actually, I am very concerned that this could become a new McCarthy eara very easily. All it would take is someone in a position of power who doesn't like a particular group and all hell will be out for noon recess.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:23 PM

Well, I don't know about the rest of y'all, but this is one little girl who don't run from the playground crying.

Bring it on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:28 PM

I'm not completely sure of myself, but wasn't the Senator who voted against the bill named FEINGOLD not Rinegold? Last I looked the latter was a (still misspelled) brand of beer. . .
There's a wonderful lawyer's summation where he has just destroyed an alibi on cross-examination and then says "Like the thirteenth stroke of a clock: not only in itself ridiculous, but casting into doubt all that has come before"


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM

Ah Brother Troll

Should it begin neither of us will be "running from the playground crying" either. We are at war and will do what we must to perservere. I always keep in mind that freedom and safety are mutually exclusive territories and that this nation struggles with that balance more than any other I have known.

I haven't been to Europe so there are some others I'm sure. Thought I'd throw that in before the UK folks disowned me!! *G*

I am glad that our little provocateur (can never recall exactly how that is spelled) felt safe enough to come in our door and vent. I take it as high praise of our open and willing attitudes to put up with about anything - be it in moderation or not. The discussion is what is important - is it not Fionn?

K - back to music I think. *Smilin Jack" would be proud of me.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:06 PM

RANT ON

(At least I label mine) (good old "self-righteous bitch," yeah, that's me again) (no "proselytizing" this time, no worries)

I think I get it now, and ya know, it's ABOUT EFFING TIME. This is just one in a LONG list of "Ain't It Awful?" threads.

Ain't it awful this happened, and that happened, and these people are idiots, ain't it awful? (In case I missed noticing something dumb about our world, for myself-- just in case I was not looking in the sh*t but at something lovely and true)

Ain't it awful how this group or that group or your group or my group has a few loudmouths who get a lot of PR? (Substitute the group of your personal axe to grind).

It has nothing at all to do with a passion for something someone loves, although it hides under that cover. It passes itself off as YOU NEED TO KNOW THIS! I JUST GOTTA TELL YOU! ALERT!! ALERT!!!

It's just hate-mongering.

I propose that we just stick that label on, in good humor and detached cheer, whenever we spot it.

Ain't it awful how some people can only say what they think in terms of Ain't it awful?

See what it breeds. Now I'm doing it! Uck! It's slimy! I'm covered in it! (ALERT! ALERT! *G*G*)

Thank God for music, and thank God for Threadsnot. Yes, ThreadsNot. It's the non-BS-thread filter. It's great. You can bookmark your personal page and go there first, to see if any worthwhile threads you joined in good faith have had any posts, and catch up on delightful PMs. Then you can bop over to the forum, riding the Threadsnot rails (keep mah skillet GREASY folks) and soak up the joy of music.

THEN if you have time left over you can wallow in AIN'T IT AWFUL thinking, and that is nice when one has an odd moment... But only after first arming one's mind with something positive!

Rant off.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:09 PM

Sheesh...

That's a nice list of people, CatsCradle and GUEST. Bunches of good singers and songwriters there. But whos list is this?

So far as I can tell, it's yours and yours alone. Last time I heard, none of the folkies mentioned had ties to Middle Eastern Islamic fundamentalist terrorists. To date, I have yet to hear any of them sing about freeing Islam, Allah, or killing all the infidels.

BTW, if they want to come and get me, it won't be a long trip. I work in the Headquarters of one of the nations intelligence divisions.

Thus far, I have gotten nothing but compliments on the folk music I play, and some serious questions about where the CD's can be purchased.

But I'm going to digress a little from the "topic", and touch upon the posts themselves.

Why post this stuff, CatsCradle, if you think us all a bunch of complete idiots? What do you hope to accomplish by lecturing to people you don't think capable of understanding your points? And why do you think that insulting us and calling us names will help your cause?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amergin
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM

Sorry...but I also am concerned...I myself am on a few mailing lists in supposedly dissident circles...and since I work with computers, I may very well be in danger...

perfect paranoia is perfect awareness....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 05:08 PM

Yeah, but you're the Sex God, so they can't touch you. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 06:01 PM

That's right, Amergin. Sex gods have special Protection. Consider it sort of a mystic mind-and-mail-condom... so helpful!

Boundaries are so important in today's dysfunctional world.

*G*

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 06:44 PM

Seems to me the greatest folly is to believe "it can't happen here" (ever heard of the book by the same title?)

Of course the musicians listed don't have ties to the Middle East. If you think that is what the US Patriot Act is about, I think you are mistaken.

This act can and will be used to silence any political dissenters the Bush administration wishes to target, with impunity, for the next four years.

Ask Dick Gaughan when he was allowed back into the US, after being on the State Dept's list of undesirables.

Or ask how many people who's lives were destroyed by the blacklist.

This is legislation that will be used to intimidate and harrass political dissenters, to keep "undesirables" out of the US by denying work visas to artists and activists, conduct smear/whisper campaigns that will be undertaken against artists and activists with private information collected under this act and leaked to the media, and be used to track people's whereabouts anywhere in the world, not just in the US.

A Brave New World.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:10 PM

The sky is falling! The sky is falling!

Midchuck: As far as I know, none of my neighbors have asses (the four legged kind). Anyway, posing this question to me begs the question: do you think I'm really Kendall?

Now had you been referring to the two legged kind, ...perhaps.

Susan: never fear. I have connetions. You have nothing to worry about. :>)

Amergin: If you'll send me a PM or post a message that you like Bush, I'll see that you are safe too! *G*

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: artbrooks
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 07:34 PM

Its interesting that Catscradle's opinion of Mudcatters somehow evolved from "anti-terrorist fascists" to "lobotomized libertarians" over 24 hours. Having taken some economics and political science classes at various times in my life, I seem to recall that fascism involves private enterprise with strict government control and that libertarianism involves an absolute minimum of government control. Oh, golly, "Webster" agrees. Either he has been significantly educated in a day, or else he has no idea what the hell he's talking about...
Having met Russ FEINGOLD, I'm sure that he is comfortable with his position as the only voice of principle in the Senate. Personally, I agree with his principles in the abstract, but I agree with the others who have said (one way or another) that extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary measures. Both the Al Qaida terrorists and the assholes spreading anthrax (who may or may not be the same people) are submerged in our population. Are we supposed to tell the law enforcement people that they aren't allowed to use available means to look for them? Yes, many of these "new" rules can be used in ways that are outside the current intent. Unlike many, I don't distrust everything "the government" (whatever that means) says or does. I worked for the Federal government for 31 years, and experienced the absolute mania that Federal agencies have for protecting private information. Our county is far from perfect, but it DOES learn from its past mistakes, such as those of the McCarthy era and Roosevelt's/Earl Warren's internment of Americans of Japanese descent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Vanessa
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:12 PM

Oh man, I come back here after 4 months and what do I find...

I'm sorry that this angry, pissy guest commentator ran through and called names, raising hackles everywhere.

But that doesn't change how dangerous this new "USA Act" is. The FBI has made so damn many mistakes -- their history is very, very bad in being able to distinguish between dissent and terrorism, on both the left and the right.

None of you have anything in your lives that you would prefer the FBI didn't find as it went secretly through your homes? None of you, really? No stacks of porn, computer files that aren't anyone's business but yours? And that doesn't even mean they'll understand what they see. I was privileged to see a friend's old FBI files (thanks to the Freedom of Information Act) and they were a tissue of misunderstandings and rumors. Got anyone who doesn't like you, someone who might trash you behind your back?

They don't even have to tell you you're under suspicion. You could be under suspicion because you're acquainted with someone who they wonder might be a terrorist and you didn't even know it. And now you are Open Season. Not just "them." You.

I just sent off a letter to my senators, telling how disappointed I was in them that they voted for this mess. Guess it's worth sending a thank-you to Feingold for being the only one who even asked that they slow down.

Yes, we need to protect ourselves, and yes, we need to have better intelligence. But goddamn it, the terrorists are *on record* as saying they're trying to make us change our lives in exactly these kinds of ways!!

Don't even try to pull a line on me about "if you were a good enough American you'd know how much we need this." I am an excellent American. I have never been as proud of my country as when I see even people like Rush Limbaugh speak out in favor of keeping civil liberties.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 26 Oct 01 - 11:20 PM

Nope, Vanessa, my life is crystal clear. FBI, come investigate as much as you want! It's not too late for you, Vanessa, as I said, I have connections!

Artbrooks: I haven't seen you posting before. Welcome, if you're new! This is the land of OZ, you know. Sure you want to walk the yellow brick road?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:19 AM

Doug et.al., I am scared. I'll admit it. The past record of the FBI/BATF/CIA, is not an enviable one. The way they have abused their power when dealing with the very people they are supposed to protect is enough to scare anyone except those to whom the Govt. can do no wrong.
Now, they have been given even MORE power and -or so it seems to me- precious little oversight in how they handle it.
A talented IntelOp could send them on wild goose chases that could destroy the effectivness of the whole agency.
How?
Simple. Hack into someones computer and insert a file containing names, meetings plans etc. Then notify the FBI that something fishy is going on.
They check the computer and we're off to the races. It takes time and manpower to check something like this out. So you do it again. And again. And again. And pretty soon they're out of people to check these things out. So they request more men, more money, and more latitude in interpreting the laws.
HELLOOOO Senator McCarthy!!!!!
Yes, we need some of the things passed and signed into law today but what we DON'T need is to be complaisant about it. This new law can be a useful tool or the begining of the end for all our civil liberties. It all depends on how closely we make our representatives in Washington accountable for what happens.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Vanessa
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 01:23 AM

DougR, I'm touched at your complaisance -- and could you please extend your connections to all the citizens of the United States? Thanks ever so. I'm sure you can protect us all from mistaken searches and misused information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 09:14 AM

Is this so-called "libertarian" Mudcat constituency, amorphous as it seems to be, a Libertarian Party constituency, or an ACLU constituency?

By the way, both have opposed the USA PATRIOT ACT.

Libertarian Party:

http://www.lp.org/

Warrantless searches! Coming to a home or office near you SOON!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:04 AM

In the abstract there are excellent arguments here. In RI 3 weeks ago 3 men of Arabic heritage were asked to leave an area on several seperate occaisions when they were video taping submarine and military ship maneuvers. They were not arrested. They had done nothing wrong.
4 weeks ago 3 arab men and one woman that had videotape exclusivly of the Sears tower were detained only because their semi truck had unsafe violations and was taken out of service by its frieght company.
Like it or not terrorists are HERE and profiling is the common sense approach to determine who is who. To detain suspects long enough to investigate quickly with new codes is the plan.
We are to sit back and see if the greater good is served. We may never know if unspeakable horror was averted by these infringments on civil liberties. But we damn well will know when they are abused.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,WYS (who ate my cookie?)
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:05 AM

Doug, would you agree that the reality is that many of us are concerned about these matters, but are thinking that it might be a wise course to keep an eye on thigs and see how they go, before sh*tting into the fan like panicked housecats? Are you spotting, like I am, an assumption that if things go badly we can't do anything about it?

Last I heard, it's Power to the People, not Power to the Peephole.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 10:12 AM

OK, I'll bite.

What are these "protection from abuse" measures which are available to citizens and foreigners under this Act, or other US law?

Donuel? DougR? WYSIWYG? KimC? Norton1? Celtic Soul?

Can any of you tell us what legal protections we have to prevent the past abuses by the US government against ordinary citizens, which are now legendary not only in the US, but around the world?

We're waiting...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 11:01 AM

And as to my rudeness, here is MY answer folks:

http://www.mnftiu.cc/mnftiu.cc/war.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 11:07 AM

rudeness?? the end justifies the means. No need to worry about respect for fellow human beings! No need for speaking the truth, civil liberties are at stake!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:14 PM

Well Guest - as to my protection? I am an armed citizen. And I have literally hundreds, if not thousands, of like minded citizens in the same manner. So until I am disarmed I'm going to protect myself in the same manner I always have. Writing and calling my representatives and senators, challenging them at every occasion, and voting.

Until then all you folks have is what you have. And calling me names and accusing me of doing immoral things to my Mom aren't doing anything except fragmenting a perfectly legal discussion of what should or should not be of concern.

Especially when you two both are clearly aware that you will never stand in front of me in the flesh and say those things. Makes you no better than the immoral cowards that attempt to take my rights away.

During the protests of the 60s and early 70s the government put shills like you two in the crowds to stir up the pot. Then when people really got going they were the ones who arrested us. As a member of the Viet Nam Veterans Against the War I was witness to this - so who are you two?

FBI looking to stir up a protest so that you can utilize these new laws to attempt to shut us down? Far as I am concerned you're just a couple of lame-assed shit stirrers with an attitude.

I've fought for this country, I've also protested every armed conflict since - with the exception of this one. The people we are after are trying to kill all of us - we are already being hit here with lots of things. Fine - we are in a war so either stand with it or be civil in your dissention with me.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM

Oh, and an ARMED and HUMORLESS motherfucker to boot!

Hey! Try the link, and get your war on Norton1 you commando fool you!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:11 PM

No one with sense says it "can't happen." One says, I think, "If it happens it can be dealt with summarily." One can choose not to believe and behave like a victim.

Protections?

The Vote(s).

The right to vote in elections at every level.

The dollar vote.

The vote I can cast with my feet.

My ability to write powerfully and rally people when it counts.

My alliances with others who think clearly.

My ability to give GREAT counseling sessions to leaders who can make an immediate difference.

Big Mick.

Everyone Big Mick counts as friend.

The intrinsic power of other human beings.

God's power for truth over the long term.

People's inherent hunger for freedom and their creativity in getting it and keeping it-- as individuals and as a species.

The difficulty of maintaining an expensive apparatus to oppress people in an economy we all can read and influence.

The mass media we can all tap into now to quickly sound the alarm and work around bulsh*tty barriers.

The vulnerability of rigid barriers to eminent good sense and creative action, and experience violating bad barriers many, many times in my life in many, many settings.

The ability to love people who act like complete idiots, but aren't, really, underneath, and who want what is right as much as the next human bean.

The triumph of good over evil being easier than the obverse.

My own good sense about how to communicate and maintain my own territory around myself, with others doing the same.

My MIND.

My music, and yours, all of you.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:21 PM

Oh yes Susan, all of the above worked so well to protect the World Trade Center, after all...

America, show us your bombs!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,AfghansCan
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:30 PM

Yea--I too hunger for freedom...

Especially from bombs and terror, yet--

--the US only rains food down in my fields sewn with landmines...

To you generous Americans we can only say:

While you will have your freedom at any cost, Freedom is something the rest of us can ill afford.

And remember, those who don't learn from the past are Americans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,All Warm and Fuzzy
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM

That's right AfghansCan! You can ill afford freedom, because it costs so much!

Another $300 billion to Lockheed just last week, so we can buy bigger, better, faster, newer bombers with which we shall let Our Freedom ring all over your Landmined Fields of Tyranny, while we try and rock your Taliban and replace them with Our Moderately Repressive Regime.

UN Sanctioned and Sanctified By TWO Empires!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:35 PM

Catscradle...you sure are convincing everyone by insulting them...unfortunately it is also showing your age....how old are you? 12? I sure hope so...because it is rather sad if you are any older than that...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 02:45 PM

Amergin, has it not occurred to you that not everyone plays by the same rules? The Politics of Polite aren't embraced by all.

In case you haven't guessed--that is one of my points, and it is sharp and barbed.

See how easy it is to tell (and how easy it was for me to flush out) who those folks are in this forum who would turn on their UnAmerican Mudcat neighbors without skipping a heartbeat?

That alone is a great public service for you.

You are most welcome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:00 PM

Catscradle, you have gotten no point across. Do your middleschool teachers tell you that once you start calling people names that their ears automatically become deaf to any thing you are trying to say? If not they should.

Oh and by the way, there is not much that I have learned in this life....but I have learned that there is no such thing as "unAmerican", save of course trodding on others' rights...and one of those rights is the right to not be insulted by a foul mouthed adolescent...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:06 PM

Hope your eyes didn't fall out reading all those bad words, Amergin.

I must have overlooked that "right not to be insulted" in the Constitution.

Blame it on bad teachers and the public school system.

That's the best motherfuckerly advice I can offer to those of you whose eyeballs fall out when you read profanity, or whose ears fall off when you hear your colleagues swearing.

Perhaps you could get Norton1 to shoot me, since he is armed and humourless.

If not, I'm sure you can find someone to get the US Patriot Act amended to include nuking the homes of Internet posters you don't like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: wysiwyg
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:09 PM

It just can't be done accurately at a distance-- reading strangers' minds. Catscradle, you've got whole scripts written for osme of us that you are "responding" to, and you're mixing arguments all together as though they are all one topic. If you ever hope to make sense with anyone here, it seems a diminishing possibility each time you post. And I have yet to see anything related to music from you... perhaps that's the trouble right there.

I have a feeling you are going to find, very soon, that no one will play. Even those of us who enjoy a little good-humored mutual sh*t-flinging, now and then, like there to be some intelligence in it.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 03:38 PM

I think like Big Mick said - Bye - Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 05:10 PM

I think its time for this thread to come to a well-deserved end. My last post. Bye, all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Catscradle
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 05:23 PM

So now, eejits announce they are leaving threads.

I thought that was infantile, egocentric behaviour reserved for the heels who left Mudcat in a huff.

Hope the screen door hits ya...


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 05:28 PM

I'm just glad you are not on my side, Catscradle.

Troll: I see your point. As someone else observed, though, I think a wait and see position is not unreasonable. I believe that if the FBI or any other agency abuses the new laws it will be found out. There are enough people int he Congress who were reluctant to change the laws to so something about it and I think they would.

I'm just not as pessimistic as others, I guess.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:31 PM

I know who you are Catscradle (and all the other names you used in this thread). You are the little f*cker with the pencil neck. I used to kick the shit out of you in grammar school, because you were a whiney f*ckin' candy assed little weasel then, and you're a whiney f*ckin' candy assed little weasel today. In the classroom, you can "tell the teacher" on us without worries - but you'll be out in the open one day - we'll kick your ass then, just like we did to 20 years ago!

Nice to know things haven't changed, eh?? Ah Mark, you bring out the best in us!


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Oct 01 - 06:34 PM

Personally, I think it is time for Catscradle to take a nap without milk and cookies....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 05:39 PM

On Halloween Nite, Jed Marum, you, and a few others will get the name and address of a person who has been making anonymous, abusive, anti-Semitic, harassing, ocassionally threatening posts here for a long time. The only thing you have to do is go back over all the "offensive" posts and troll threads, and decide whether they really are as bad as people think--


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Kim C
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 05:51 PM

GUEST, to answer your question...

I believe the Bill of Rights has not yet been abolished, and still offers me and everyone else in the US some protection. Call me crazy but I have faith in this wicked ol' Great Satan of a country.

Now. Do I think there's potential for abuse? Oh sure. Am I going to let it ruin my day? Not a chance.

Have a Coke and a smile. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 30 Oct 01 - 08:49 PM

And a handfull of potato chips!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: CaptainLewis
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 01:38 AM

Man, Catscradle has one of the worst cases of Turet's I've seen in a long time! Nice blend of semi-rational thought tho.

Kinda reminds me of a rather pathetic artist here in on a cable channel who spouts in much the same manner - but more nonsensical - in the name of art and expression, oh yeah and shock value.

Funny in a sad, egotistical, meaningless sort of way.

CLB


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 07:13 AM

And I note that when some of you can't contribute to the discussion with facts, you attack the messenger who brought the news.

I'm never impressed by posters who refresh a thread just to attack someone, no matter who it is--especially when the person being attacked is no longer antagonizing the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 06:05 PM

Right. Back in 1812 or so, we stupid Americans passed the "Alien and Sedition Acts," which were also abused. Moral: There seems to be nothing new under the sun. Best comment I have heard on this so far, from a very right-wing radio commentator whom I had no choice but to listen to: "Do you suppose that ANY of the people who jumped from the WTC were thinking, 'Well, at least I still have my rights?'"

CC


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Troll
Date: 31 Oct 01 - 11:14 PM

I do not believe that it is fair to refer to GUEST Catscradle as a "weasel". He exhibits none of that animals noble and endearing qualities. That goes for GUEST as well.
Besides, weasels aren't yellow.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:59 AM

Kim,

Don't be so sure you are not suspected (by your government) of being associated with terrorists.

[Are you a folk musician? Aren't musicians usually liberals? And aren't all liberals communists? And all communists anti-American?]

Seriously, as Lonesome EJ alluded to, our CIA and FBI, as well as local law enforcement, have in the past targeted individuals for surveillance and sometimes harrassment because of their membership in "subversive" organizations such as civil rights, feminist, and peace groups.

Kendall also pointed out one reason why a person who is not engaged in illegal or immoral activity may want privacy (a record of treatment for mental illness). There are many things one may want to keep private for personal reasons having nothing to do with immorality or illegality. Don't forget, too, that simply being detained, searched, or arrested can have devastating effects on a person who is never convicted or perhaps never even indicted for a crime! [Do you think police don't damage things when they search your property? Ever had a gung-ho customs official tear apart your luggage or car looking for contraband? And don't you think being detained can wreak havoc on your personal and professional business?]

Not only that, but there is always the chance that information gathered for legitimate purposes will get into the hands of folks outside the goverment who will abuse it, too. People do hack into government and business files.

As several of you folks have noted, extraordinary times call fo extraordinary measures. Still, we need to be vigilant against possible abuses even during "war" time. What is troublesome about our, in effect, invoking the "War Powers Act" now is that, as CatsCradle noted, there has been no declaration of war by congress.

If we were at war with, say, Afghanistan, there could be a clear end to the war. But GWB has declared "War on Terrorism" ("we are at war against evil..."), much as Reagan declared War on Drugs and Lyndon Johnson declared War on Poverty. I'm glad there is a "sunset clause," because if we had to wait until we defeated "terrorism" in the world, or worse, until we defeated "evil," we would be waiting a long time!

Good websites, Amos! And I'd like to see that chronology of the changes in our constitutional "rights," too.

Ivan B, you say Congress cannot change the constitution, only propose amendments... . Well, there is another way they can do it if they are on the same wavelength as the executive and judicial branches. Congress can pass laws (just as local governments can), and if the judicial has been stacked (by accident or design) with like-minded people, the courts can, in effect, make new law, by upholding laws which many believe violate the Constitution. Something that has been considered unconstitutional for decades suddently is constitutional. In the present scenario, given the actions of the Rehnquist Supreme Court re the "War on Drugs," I am not so sure that suits brought over conflicts of the anti-terrorism bill and the Bill of Rights would be successful.

Genie


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:28 AM

Genie, at no time in my life have I ever been what anyone would even -think- of describing as "liberal." 'Course, maybe being a Gun Owner could get me suspected of something.

Anyway.... I don't disagree that there is potential for abuse. There are always people who will take advantage of a situation, and yes, we do need to pay attention to these things. Indeed, there are personal facts that some would want to keep private, and we need to be able to keep it that way.

However, as I said before, I'm not going to let it ruin my day.

I will ask again, what do we do? We have to be able to gather evidence against people who want to crash planes into buildings and such.

How do we do that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:45 AM

Reformatted, to make it readable:

From: InOBU Date: 26-Oct-01 - 07:24 AM

I thought this might be helpful...
Larry Déjà Vu >The FBI's Assault on Civil Liberties
By Ronnie Gilbert

For the second time in my life -- at least -- a group that I belong to is being investigated by the FBI. The first was the Weavers.
The Weavers were a recording industry phenomenon. In 1950 we recorded a couple of songs from our American/World folk music repertoire, Leadbelly's "Goodnight Irene" and (ironically) the Israeli "Tzena, Tzena, Tzena" and sold millions of records for the almost-defunct record label. Folk music entered the mainstream, and the Weavers were stars.
By 1952 it was over. The record company dropped us, eager television producers stopped knocking on our door. The Weavers were on a private yet well-publicized roster of suspected entertainment industry reds. The FBI came a-calling.

This week, I just found out that Women in Black, another group of peace activists I belong to, is the subject of an FBI investigation. Women in Black is a loosely knit international network of women who vigil against violence, often silently, each group autonomous, each group focused on the particular problems of personal and state violence in its part of the world.

Because my group is composed mostly of Jewish women, we focus on the Middle East, protesting the cycle of violence and revenge in Israel and the Palestinian Territories.

The FBI is threatening my group with a Grand Jury investigation. Of what?
That we publicly call the Israeli military's occupation of the mandated Palestine lands illegal? So does the World Court and the United Nations.
That destroying hundreds of thousands of the Palestinians' olive and fruit trees, blocking roads and demolishing homes promotes hatred and terrorism in the Middle East? Even President Bush and Colin Powell have gotten around to saying so.
So what is to investigate? That some of us are in contact with activist Palestinian peace groups? This is bad?

The Jewish Women in Black of Jerusalem have stood vigil every Friday for 13 years in protest against the Occupation; Muslim women from Palestinian peace groups stand with them at every opportunity. We praise and honor them, these Jewish and Arab women who endure hatred and frequent abuse from extremists on both sides for what they do.

We are not alone in our admiration. Jerusalem Women in Black is a nominee for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize, along with the Bosnia Women in Black, now ten years old.

If the FBI cannot or will not distinguish between groups who collude in hatred and terrorism, and peace activists who struggle in the full light of day against all forms of terrorism, we are in serious trouble.

I have seen such trouble before in my lifetime. It was called McCarthyism. In the hysterical atmosphere of the early Cold War, anyone who had signed a peace petition, who had joined an organization opposing violence or racism or had tried to raise money for the refugee children of >the Spanish Civil War, in other words who had openly advocated what was not popular at the time, was fair game.

In my case, the FBI visited The Weavers' booking agent, the recording company, my neighbors, my dentist husband's patients, my friends. In the waning of our career, the Weavers were followed down the street, accosted onstage by drunken "patriots," warned by friendly hotel employees to keep>the door open if we rehearsed in anyone's room so as not to become targets for the vice squad. It was nasty. Every two-bit local wannabe G-man joined the dragnet searching out and identifying "communist spies."

In all those self-debasing years how many spies were pulled in by that dragnet? Nary a one. Instead it pulled down thousands of teachers, union members, scientists, journalists, actors, entertainers like us, who saw our lives disrupted, our jobs, careers go down the drain, our standing in the community lost, even our children harassed. A scared population soon shut their mouths up tight.

Thus came the silence of the 1950s and early 60s, when no notable voice of reason was heard to say, "Hey, wait a minute. Look what we're doing to ourselves, to the land of the free and the home of the brave," when not one dissenting intelligence was allowed a public voice to warn against zealous foreign policies we'd later come to regret, would be regretting now, if our leaders were honest.

Today, in the wake of the worst hate crime of the millennium, a dragnet is>out for "terrorists" and we are told that certain civil liberties may have to be curtailed for our own security. Which ones? I'm curious to know. The First Amendment guarantee of freedom of speech or of the press? The right of people peaceably to assemble?
Suddenly, deja vu - haven't I been here before? Hysterical neo-McCarthyism does not equal security, never will.

The bitter lesson September 11's horrific tragedy should have taught us and our government is that only an honest re-evaluation of our foreign policies and careful, focused and intelligent intelligence work can hope to combat operations like the one that robbed all of us and their families of 6,000 decent working people. We owe the dead that, at least.
As for Women in Black, we intend to keep on keeping on.

Ronnie Gilbert is a veteran of the folk music band The Weavers and a Bay >Area civil rights organizer and peace activist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:08 PM

WYS (who ate my cookie?),
Good one:
"Last I heard, it's Power to the People, not Power to the Peephole."

Susan, that would make a great protest song. Have you (or has anyone else) written it?

Genie


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Get real
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:22 PM

If any of you care to read American history, you will know that the trend has been a strengthening of rights not a suppression of them. Whatever additional powers that are granted to law enforcement will pale in contrast to what they exercised as late as the 1960s.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:31 PM

Hey, asshole -- care to substantiate your nounless assertions with some facts? Or can't you focus on specifics in your current state? Get onto your meds schedule, man. Otherwise you might end up thinking you speak for everybody!!

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:35 PM

Sorry, folks. Lost my temper, uncalled for slurs, etc. Post withdrawn (011102-1231P)

A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Genie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:20 PM

Kim, Nobody said you were a liberal -- only that some people (possibly in government agencies) might assume you were or might harrass you for associating with them! That's what McCarthyism was all about.

I don't disagree that we may need to modify some civil rights laws, temporarily. (Wider phone tap latitude bothers me less than secret searches, because I think the latter is far more vulnerable to abuse.)

I am glad to hear, though, that you do have some things you would like to keep personal. (I cringe when I hear someone say, smugly, that they have no need for privacy because they do nothing immoral or illegal -- that they dont care if their First Amendment rights are abridged!)

Sometimes we have to declare martial law for a while. That does not make it a hunky-dory state of affairs.

How we use our law enforcement and intelligence agencies to detect and deter terrorism is important.

(In WWII, an argument could be made for detaining Japanese Americans, as terribly unfair to them as it was. But that argument could in no way justify keeping them in squalid conditions or permanently seizing their assets!. This is just one illustration of a 'necessary' provision of War that was horribly abused!)

What bothers me about the "anti-terrorism" law is that it has the potential to make the US more vulnerable to being someday taken over by people who think like the Taliban!

Genie


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Get real
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM

When was the last time that police or national guardsmen slaughtered striking workers or protesters, a common occurence in the early twentieth century. Police were once free to use deadly force to subdue suspects, especially minorities without fear of punishment.Ditto for Miranda rights as well as search and seizure. Now such incidents make the front page news. The FBI has been accused of improper behavior in recent years, but it is nothing compared to that of the Hoover administration. The ACLU is now a strong force to be reckoned with. It was a joke in the beginning. Sorry if the facts enrage you....


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:06 PM

Agreed, Genie. :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:16 PM

GetReal:

Don't be a total jerk, buddy; facts do not enrage. How could they? I agree the ACLU has become a stronger force, and rampant abuses are less than they were in some areas. Some of these improvements are actually improvements at law. However, the growth of law has also by necessity eroded areas of personal liberty. Banking laws are an example -- if you move money around in any amounts larger than ten grand you are going on report. The whole IRS code, while never blessed as law, has been used frequently to encroach on citizen liberties.

So I think you'll find entries on both side ofthe balance sheet, over the last 200 years.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:53 PM

Never seen so many skittish folks in all my life. Yes, some of the things we have taken for granted in the past in regard to privacy is going to be history. But we have never faced the kind of challenge we face today. Before, soldiers faced each other in the field and whoever was the best shot lived. This is a war that will be fought in the shadows, not open fields.

The changes in the privacy laws were necessary to protect us. Those of you who see a "Fed" lurking behind every bush, whose only interest in life is finding something out about you are going to be pretty miserable if you don't just accept it.

Chill out. Don't break laws. Don't provide assistance to terrorists. You'll be fine.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 04:50 PM

I am not sure why you are so upset with Get Real, Amos--he is certainly right--the excesses of the first part of the 20th Century certainly haven't been repeated recently. Nothing like Palmer Raids, for instance. The Civil Rights movement, and all the associated rights movements, have organized people in a way that makes it harder to violate their rights.

The common belief is that Liberals fight for Civil Rights, and Conservatives oppose them, and try to undermine them. This isn't necessarily true-- Liberals tend to advocate bigger government, which has the greater potential for attempting to control the lives of the private citizen, and Consevatives, in theory at least, believe that the governement that governs best is that the governs least. In practice, they are probably about equal when it comes to abuse--Remember the Free Speech Movement at Berkeley? Clark Kerr was it's great enemy, and he was a self-proclaimed Liberal and Progressive--Of course, it was Ronald Reagan who actually sent armed troops into the streets of Berkeley--


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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:22 PM

Get Real:

Remember a little firestorm which incinerated men, women and children at Waco?

And that was under a supposedly "liberal" Democrat president.

To suggest that the last half of the 20th century hasn't seen any abuses by government forces (and the long arm of their civilian paramilitary/vigilante groups), there has been plenty of violence used against civilian groups:

Kent State in Ohio Fred Hampton murders in Chicago SLA house in California MOVE house in Philly

and those are just the quick ones off the top of my head.


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 19 May 6:44 PM EDT

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