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BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye
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Subject: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:35 AM As those who have suffered throughout the UK and Ireland as a result of the excesses of the Prevention of Terrorism Acts know, yesterday's action by the House, and today's anticipated action by the Senate, will bring in the most sweeping erasure of constitutional rights ever seen in the U.S. Those who support this measure will, I'm sure, not be bothered by it, as they are "good citizens" who have nothing to fear from the police, the FBI, the CIA, Treasury, National Security Agency, et al. Besides, they'll probably be too busy turning the rest of us in for our unAmerican activities. If you thought the McCarthy era was bad... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: JedMarum Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:51 AM What specifically makes you think so? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:54 AM History. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: kendall Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:58 AM Congress has, and has always had the power to change the Constitution. It takes 2/3 of them to agree, and they are still working for US. If you dont like what they are up to, flood their offices with protest mail.Vote for their opponent next time. A government of the people by the people, for the people..etc. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: JedMarum Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:01 AM agreed Kendall! ... by the way Guest,Catscradle - do you think the IRA should disarm? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:05 AM kendall, What a patronizing attitude. What makes you presume I haven't flooded my Congressional representatives with protests against these measures being passed? What the hell have you done to inform yourself about it? Listened to the Leno and Letterman Nightly News? Or maybe you are one of those citizens who gets their news from Mr. Maher? If you knew jack shit about the US Constitution and US law, you would know it isn't amended in the way you state above. Which shows me just how important your country, your way of life, and your civil liberties are to you. We are talking about draconian changes which haven't even seen a public debate, much less allowed for the citizens of our democratic republic an opportunity to vote for or against the people who are shoving these measures down our throats. I hope you anti-terrorist fascists feel safe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM Wrong thread Jed. This thread is about civil liberties being stripped in the name of anti-terrorism, not about whether I personally feel IRA disarmament is a good or a bad thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: JedMarum Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:18 AM I don't believe you've made a point about civil liberties being striped ... I heard your complaint/protest about the sky falling, but you haven't provided any information supporting your arguement. You see, I don't believe that you are correct. As to Kendall's point; there was nothing patronizing about it! What's more, he is correct - these things are resolved with votes not protests. I do not believe for a moment that Americans would stand for a real loss of civil liberties - we're just too set in our ways. Of course, New Yorkers did allow the car phone ban, and we still have the odd fight over Americans bearing arms - but these arguments ebb and flow at the periphery. And of course the IRA question is germain to this discussion. They are being asked by an adversary (or hopefully) former adversary; to give up their weapons, to trust completely in their government to treat them with respect and to never threaten them again. This is a significant loss of personal freedom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:24 AM Too bad you are so fucking ignorant of your own bill of rights Jed. In the US, we have constitutionally protected rights to "protest" and not just vote. Known as the freedom of speech and right to assemble. Try today's New York Times for the story, the Boston Globe, the Washington Post, any major news network's website. Jesus a lot of you people shoot your mouths off here about things you don't have a fucking clue about. Don't you get embarrassed looking this stupid in public, in front of all your Mudcat friends? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: kendall Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:27 AM Thanks for the support Jed, I also noticed the lack of specifics in his rant. Cats cradle, for you to say I dont know Jack shit about the constitution, when YOU dont know Jack shit about me is silly.I suggest you find out who you are attacking before you fire the next broadside! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,PeteBoom (at work) Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:29 AM Jed, Kendall, don't bother - his mind is made up, don't confuse him with facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: MMario Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:30 AM and a few specifics about what you are ranting about wouldn't hurt either. As Jed said - currently you are doing nothing but screaming that the sky is falling. In short - you are acting like a typical net-troll. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Allan C. Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:38 AM Out here in the wilderness of West Virginia the headlines are filled with stories about the parade plans for next weekend and the conviction of somebody for something he did eight months ago. Could someone please supply a link to whatever it is that this thread refers? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Oct 01 - 09:58 AM However, just to add a little cold water to the mix, there is already documented serious erosion of personal freedoms for illegal immigrants, people of islamic or middle-eastern background who are not US citizens, and so on. The fear is quite real that it won't stop at a US passport and that even the freedoms of Americans will be next. My personal take on that is that when people abuse their freedoms in the name of personal rights and ride roughshod over their own responsibilities (which include respecting others' personal rights), that it would not be a bad thing if they lost some of those freedoms. And Americans by and large are MUCH more invested in their personal freedoms than they are in their social responsibilities - yes you have the right to own a gun, no you do not have the right to keep it in such a way that anybody other than you can get to it, for example. Or -even better- yes you have the right to own a gun but you have a responsibility not to, until they make guns that can't be abused. I would say that the answer is get a time machine, go back a generation, and raise the current set of adults with better manners. Failing that, I'm willing to give up one very American right - the right to privacy - in exchange for greater security. I kind of like the idea of what they are doing in, I think, Singapore - everybody has a credit card thingie, particular to them individually; any purchase is made with the card; you use the card to start your car; it communicates with other cards so where you are and with whom you are can be known. As long as I wasn't buying contraband or hanging out with thugs, I have lost nothing by this system. And I have gained the knowledge that the person who just drove up to my kids' school is likely on the up-and-up or they would have had to have walked, to avoid any crime being instantly electronically tied to them. Yeah, I know, it would never work, because the government IS of the people, and people can't be trusted. Right? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: JedMarum Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:00 AM here is a link to the Reuters story. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Donuel Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:10 AM War powers are indeed in opposition to peace time rights. To fight and lose a humanitarian war is a poor alternative.For those who wish war you could not have a larger , longer and more dangerous war. Being an alarmist at this point is a silly notion at best. I do not think there can be more alarming circumstances.
The conflict is ultimately one of beliefs of fundamentalism against modern open societies. Do not assume victory. America is no less unsinkable than the Titanic. No doubt that statement will be unpopular but many empires have been brought down in the past by Barbarians at the gate and Trojan horses within the gates. It will be a conflict that will call upon Americans to fight and die perhaps in great numbers (10 to 60 million from bio contagions). If the 5 major cities in the US are uninhabitable from Nuke plant terrorism the game is over for at least 20 generations. Taking defense of our own facilities too lightly will be unfortunate in the extreme. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Donuel Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:40 AM addendum: Due to the fact that the strategy of world court legitimacy and that the US is leading with a fist, escalation is a certainty. The US war commitee in charge that actually belongs more to GW's dad, has made all the predicted mistakes with exception to coalition efforts. To go forward from here is all we can do. WWIII looms ever larger with or without a Palestinian state. I have no wish for a war, but given the principles and personalities involved I do not see it cooling down before the world is decimated of human population. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM WWIII is already happening. By definition. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Donuel Date: 25 Oct 01 - 10:42 AM addendum: Due to the fact that the strategy of world court legitimacy is ignored and that the US is leading with a fist, escalation is a certainty. The US war commitee in charge that actually belongs more to GW's dad, has made all the predicted mistakes with exception to coalition efforts. To go forward from here is all we can do. WWIII looms ever larger with or without a Palestinian state. I have no wish for a war, but given the principles and personalities involved I do not see it cooling down before the world is decimated of human population. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:20 AM The anti-terrorism bill is a bipartisan compromise from similar measures approved earlier by the House and Senate. A chief difference is that the final legislation would have many of its provisions expire, or "sunset," in four years. The White House had opposed any such limits, but was forced to accept them as part of the price of getting a measure that both the House and Senate could pass. Many lawmakers said "sunsets" were a needed safeguard to help protect against future abuses of the war-time legislation. Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy, a Vermont Democrat, said, "We did the White House a favor" by eliminating provisions that he called unconstitutional and said would have trampled civil liberties. Changes made in the legislation included eliminating or revising provisions that would have allowed for the indefinite detention without charges of foreigners deemed security risks and the execution of search warrants without any notification. ACLU DISSATISFIED Regardless of the changes, the American Civil Liberties Union remained dissatisfied with the legislation, warning it still contained many provisions that could be used to violate the rights of law-abiding people. Highlights of the legislation include provisions that: --Make it a crime to knowingly harbor a terrorist. --Authorize "roving wiretaps." This would grant court orders to wiretap any phone a suspected foreign terrorist might use rather than a specific phone. Many suspects now frustrate law enforcement by constantly switching phones. --Make it easier for U.S. criminal investigators and intelligence officers to share intelligence information. --Give the U.S. Treasury Department new powers to target foreign countries and banks deemed to be money-laundering threats. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Whistle Stop Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:28 AM I'm not sure the person who opened this thread really deserves a response, but for Jed and others who have responded intelligently, I'll chime in. I am all in favor of the bill that was just passed by the House, and given that I am also a voting American citizen, I am exercising MY right to voice support for the initiative, rather than protest against it. Certainly we should watch these things so that we don't end up with our government having too much power over things that they should not have power over. However, I believe that one of the the primary functions of our government is to "provide for the common defense," and I want them to have the tools to do the job as well as it can be done. New threats call for new tools. I think we need to recognize that there are a number of entities out there who would try to destroy or curtail the freedoms we currently enjoy; and speaking for myself, the US government is not the one I'm most worried about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Donuel Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:41 AM Amos, thank you for the sunset information. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:45 AM It is usually advisable to find facts when confronted with panic-mongering ravers. I do not like these measures, myself, and like even worse that they are necessary. But I think they are necessary for the reasons stated in light of the war that began on 9/11/. Sorry times, pal. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Oct 01 - 11:57 AM Guest, Catscradle, You seem to be new to Mudcat. If so, welcome to this place where everyone can be right.... for as long as it takes for the next person to post and be just as right, just as briefly. *G* And where we also discuss music, a LOT of music, on a good day, without regard for who is right, which is awful nice. I looked over your posts to date. I saw someone start with some debate in the style that is an honored tradition here at Mudcat. Then I saw someone whose buttons had apparently been pushed (not by anyone's deliberate effort here), and who started to sling it the personal way, to make his/her point. And then here in this thread, a continuation of that personal-attack style. We have just a few habitues here who debate in that style... that style is tolerated by most of the rest of us because we know them, first, as fellow musicians. We've learned to take the salt they pass along. I wouldn't say (speaking just for myself) that most of us LIKE that style, though, or find it effective in making a point. Well, it's none of my business, but as someone willing to be friend, I would just say, perhaps you want to get to know the place and the people a little before posting in a fashion that causes the reactions you've gotten here so far? And let the rest of us get to know you a bit as well? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:22 PM Apparently the lot of you couldn't find your own way to an on-line news website to save your lives. Anti-terrorism legislation passed the House yesterday, and will pass the Senate today with (likely) less than 5 hours scheduled for debate, and will be on Bush's desk by next week. Other "new" facets of the government's claim to have a right to spy on it's own citizenry, without judicial oversight I might add, includes the right to secretly search your home, and to tap your email account, and follow your web searches. Can someone tell me when the US Congress passed an Act of War please? No? I thought not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: MMario Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM No - several people have been out to the sites - probably all of us. We (politely) asked for details. Your putting of qoutes around "new" seems to indicate that you realize these are NOT technically new procedures - but (if I understand the bill correctly) a four year proviso to prevent STATE law from preventing FEDERAL investigation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Kim C Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:37 PM It sounds to me like they can only spy on those members of the citizenry who could be suspected of breaking the law. Good. Go for it. There are too many people who get off already on "technicalities" anyhow. As far as I know I am not suspected of associating with any suspected terrorists so personally I am not worried about being spied on. As far as criminals go, we don't spy on them enough. So there. pffffffttt! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:45 PM Catscradle: If you read the post above at 1120AM, you will probably recognize it is from a news site covering the story. I suggest you read WYSIWYG's post and stop rolling around in your own sense of righteous superiority like a dog in its own feces. It is unbecoming and makes you look like a raving lunatic, when I at least am quite sure you are not a lunatic, at least. Your civil liberties are safe here, obviously, no matter how odiously employed. Regards, A |
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Subject: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Clinton Hammond Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM How's about a few specifics (other than the right to spy) for us Non mericas who are curious... ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Charley Noble Date: 25 Oct 01 - 12:57 PM Oh, I expect the new provisions, when signed into law and implemented, will be abused by the current administration. That is sad, and hopefully the ACLU will still be around to help, but international terrorism within our borders is too easy to get away with now as has become all too clear. Thanks, Amos, for the update. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Art Thieme Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:06 PM Is this about civil liberties or is it about social Contract????. I think the latter. Extaordinary times often necessitate extraordinary necessities. Elevated paranoia, Catscradle, is a sad by-product of 9/11. I'm with Jed and Kendall. I trust the Constitution to ultimately re-swing any pendulum back to it's former less invasive position. Art Thieme |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: kendall Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:27 PM I must admit to Catscradle that the presidents option of suspending Habeas Corpus is troublesome to me. Abraham Lincoln did it, but, dubya is no Lincoln. The matter of search warrants? They still need a judge to sign it, and the 4th amendment is still quite clear on this. Among other questions about the constitution, being required to quote the 4th amendment was one of the requirements we had to pass before graduating from the U.S. Treasury Dept. school of law enforcement & Criminal investigation.It was very important. Here in Maine, there was a big hoorah about checking into the background of teachers, including fingerprinting, to weed out the undesireables, and some of those teachers raised hell, some threatened to quit, some did quit. Why? I knew one of them, she had been hospitalized for a nervous breakdown some years ago, and she was afraid it would be grounds for removal. In order to deal with foreign nationals on the high seas, I had to pass a security exam. Big deal! What's more important? Talking to Russians or teaching children? Old Maine proverb, If you throw a rock into a pack of dogs, only the one it hits will yelp. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Mrrzy Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:31 PM Nice try, WYSIWYG! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:37 PM Some more facts to offset the raving: http://www.politechbot.com/docs/usa.act.final.102401.html House debate over USA Act: How your House member voted: Background: --- http://www.wired.com/news/conflict/0,2100,47858,00.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Lonesome EJ Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM Cat'scradle's concern is a legitimate one, even if his way of saying it is a bit abrasive. We are all aware that abrogations of rights, such as the elimination of the necessity of a search warrant, increase the potential of abuse by law enforcement to the point where "terrorists" are not the only targets, but the same rules may soon be applied to anarchists, communists, Baha'ists, and other Enemies of the State. The definition of "Enemies of the State" being subject to the disgression of the individual law enforcement officer", these extraordinary measures call for careful and continuous scrutiny. We in America have been subject to gradual change and re-definition of our basic rights since the Constitution was written. Where the bounds were obviously overstepped (Prohibition Amendment), our system has shown the remarkable ability to self-correct. Other abridgements in the name of crisis (the No-Knock Law in the "war on drugs", the displacement of Japanese Americans in WW 2) have either become standard procedure, or dismissed as one-time aberrations. Of the two, the changes that become standard procedure are most frightening to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM Some positive things have also been introduced over the years -- for example, the Miranda Act. But the price of having a freedom-based system where constraints are the exceptions is that you have to stay awake and notice when the mealymouths are grabbing another inch under their over-used shopworn guidon of "Necessity". It would be a fine thing to see an indepth chronological analysis of erosions deployed since the Bill of Rights was adopted. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM Hey, Mrrzy, if you give people a heads-up and they still insist on being pooheads-- well, at least it's clear then! But I was remembering a couple of wonderful members who entered on the wrong foot, then pulled it out of their mouths and (sometimes) returned under another name and contributed great stuff. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: DougR Date: 25 Oct 01 - 02:49 PM "I hope you anti-terrorist fascists feel safe." Well, GUEST Catscradle, I dont' know any fascists here. Perhaps there are some, I just don't knowof any. But I think we are all anti-terrorist minded. Well, maybe there's one among us that's not. I agree with Jed, Kendall, Susan and others. I think it was necessary legislation and I don't believe it will be abused. Perhaps your vicious attack on Kendall, and others, stems from disappointment that more Mudcatters did not immediately rally to your cause. Whatever. It's not a very effective way to solicit friendly response. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:42 PM Bearing in mind the reactions I have had when I have suggested the Provisional IRA might yield up their semtex, I don't think DougR's claim that "we are all anti-terrorist minded" would have stood much scrutiny before September 11. Quick law usually turns out to be bad law, but even so, I wouldn't have thought that the measures now being acted were a huge encroachment on civil liberty. (Of course, I live in a country where we are not even allowed to bear arms.) What should be of greater concern is that while these measures will cause minor inconvenience to the innocent, they will do nothing whatsoever to constrain the terrorists. Moreover, the present ham-fisted onslaught in Afghanistan will ensure a continuing supply of terrorists ready to give their lives causing havoc in simple ways. Remember they needed only a few penkives to panic the strongest nation on earth. God knows what they might they do with pointed sticks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Kim C Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:52 PM It wasn't the boxcutters, Fionn, it was the threat of a bomb. Most of us who are ambulatory would probably be willing to take on someone with a widget, but if that someone said, hey, I'm gonna blow this place up.... now that makes it a different ballgame, don't it? And I imagine the disbelief factor was pretty strong too. If anyone on those first two planes had known for sure what was going to happen, the outcome -might- have been different. Here lately in the news we have had reports of one unruly airline passenger being taken down by other passengers, and someone threatening a bus driver was also fought off by other passengers. People are more alert now, I think, and more willing to get involved. Believe it or not, I too have my doubts about the outcome of the current situation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: MMario Date: 25 Oct 01 - 03:57 PM also - up until this point - hi-jacking were hi-jackings - they (the passengers) expected a hostage situation, not a kamikaze attack on a building. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: M.Ted Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM I think you've all been trolled again, likely by the same person who started the Anti-american/anti-Israeli threads which oddly came only slightly before the 9/11 assaults--one nice thing about the new bill is that it will allow law enforcement to ferret out anonymous trolls who step over the line-- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: IvanB Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:11 PM Just to be pedantic, Congress cannot change the Constitution. They can, by 2/3 vote propose amendments, which must be approved by 3/4 of the states. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: Kim C Date: 25 Oct 01 - 04:20 PM You know, you're right. There's that pesky process of ratification that can take months, even years... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Melani Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:37 PM Since I don't knowingly hang around with terrorists, and my profile is such that I doubt I would be suspected of such, I am not too concerned about the standard sort of investigative things like wiretaps, etc. What disturbs me deeply is the news that the four suspects currently being held have been so adamantly silent that the use of strong-arm interrogation is being considered. I think there are some things we really must not do, even in the name of self-defense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: SharonA Date: 25 Oct 01 - 05:43 PM Thank you, IvanB, for pointing that out!!! KimC, I'm guessing that, now, even the threat by an airline hijacker that he has a bomb will keep him from being rushed by the plane's passengers... now that they know that the hijacker intends to kill them anyway. Now we know we're on equal footing with them in that we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by fighting back. Were I in the situation, my only hope (since I'd have no hope for my life) would be that the plane's pieces would land harmlessly in a field, just like in Somerset County, PA. It may indeed be time to reassess our civil liberties in light of the current world situation, but I feel sure that we won't be willing to give up any freedoms unless absolutely necessary... maybe not even then! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:06 PM Have any of you ever heard of the right of dissent from the point of view/opinion/policies of the government? That is the danger to civil liberties. If you want to change something through the conventional political process in the US, you have constitutionally protected means of disagreeing with and changing government policy, laws, even the Constitution itself. Citizen groups can and do exercise those rights all the time in the US. However, governments being what governments are, even in democracies where those rights of political dissent are protected, governments go after political dissenters illegally, and go to extraordinary lengths to silence them. That is what the McCarthy era was all about. The COINTELPRO spy ring which targeted civil rights and anti-war activists in the 1950s and 1960s,in violation of many people's civil and constitutional rights (like Martin Luther King). As someone has already pointed out, these draconian laws will do nothing to prevent domestic terrorism, and certainly won't make a dent in organized crime. So why do we need these laws? Simple. To silence political dissent, the same way the government attempted to silence it during the McCarthy era. The new Office of Homeland Security is yesterday's House UnAmerican Activities Committee. It looks to me as if Mudcat is a forum of pretty conservative people who aren't very politically aware of what is going on in the world, or in the US. The laws being railroaded through Congress right now are very dangerous to our nation's values and way of life. If you don't believe those rights constitutionally guaranteed you in the Bill of Rights to be all that important because you don't think you'll be harmed by their suspension, you might want to do a bit of history reading, just to find out what will happen when the FBI come to your door for you or a loved one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: GUEST,Catscradle Date: 25 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM The bill has passed the Senate with only one dissenting vote--Sen. Reingold of Wisconsin. It will be on Bush's desk for signature tomorrow.n At least 66 House Reps had the guts to stand up against this. So--no need to worry about terrorists now! But just try and get a cop to answer a call when you are a victim of violent crime in Any City, USA and you may be shit of luck. They'll be guarding your politicians, CEOs of major multi-nationals, your "historic " sites, and The Sacred Mall. Nice to see everyone giving away their constitutionally protected civil rights to support fascism--those values that REALLY matter in the US.
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: wysiwyg Date: 25 Oct 01 - 07:53 PM One of the problems with ignoring troll-posts is that sometimes their words stand as the "factoid" on something, and the misinformation can thus become part of prevailing "wisdom" over time.
So, to correct the impression left above: Here, let's make just this a music thread: "Drop Kick Me Jesus Through the Troll-Posts of Life." ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Kiss Your Civil Liberties Goodbye From: DougR Date: 25 Oct 01 - 08:35 PM Funny, Susan! We could probably all use a little humor at this point. Guest: you obviously don't spend much time at the Mudcat. Your line, "it looks to me that the Mudcat is a forum of pretty conservative people ..." gave almost as big a laugh as Susan's last sentence did. I would describe the make-up of the Mudcat a bit different than Susan though. I'd guess: some Libertarians, lots of Liberals, and a few Conservatives. DougR |