Origins: I Know You Rider

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Catherine M.
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 10:48 PM

This thread is fascinating.

On a slightly different tack, what do you think "rider" means? Horseback? Is it sexual? Does it refer to a particular lifestyle/job? Is there any cultural context?

I'm so glad to know that it was originally from a woman's point of view... it sort of makes more sense to me now that way. I first heard the Byrds recording of this song... and the Jorma Kaukonen version sometime thereafter.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 06:04 PM

This is a tough song to trace. One form is an old blues, not found yet. More than one song involved?
These are the earlier published references
Brown, North Carolina Folklore, 1919. Not seen. Perhaps a different song.
Sandburg- 1928, "When a Woman Blue," Two verses and music in "An American Songbag, pp. 236-237. "collected from Negroes in the cotton fields of Texas."
Lomax, 1934, "Woman Blue," One collected verse and nine added.
Silber, Fred and Irwin, 1973, "Folksinger's Workbook," "I Know You Rider," eight verses, mostly from Lomax (or Coltman or Kingston Trio?).
Bob Coltman, information posted above, song used in the 1950's.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Suffet
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 06:21 PM

Bob,

Say "hello" to Irwin from me. And I'll say "hello" to Jerry Epstein on your behalf the next time I see him. We are both on the New York Pinewoods Folk Music Club board of directors, so we see each other at least once a month. If you don't already know, Jerry's e-mail address is: [e-mail]

He and Don Wade (also on the NY Pinewoods board) still carry your old Minstrel Records LPs in stock, along with the recordings of Jack Langstaff, Frank Warner, Dwayne Thorpe, and others.

Regards again.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 02:35 PM

I haven't heard it. But I went to her website to check it out. She uses the Lomax title, "Woman Blue" and adds "(aka I Know You Rider") at least on the CD version.

Since that record was not recorded until 1965, I'm assuming Roderick heard it from Henske or the Trio, or even the Serendipity Singers (1964). By the time she picked it up, it was clearly in play in the folk pop market.

Since she uses the title "Woman Blue," though, I take it she (or someone she knew) after hearing the song, must have done some back research, ferreted out its source, noticed the Lomax title and used that.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 01:30 PM

what about Judy Roderick's 'Woman Blue' Vanguard VRS-9197 (mono)/ VSD-79197 (stereo) = Fontana TFL 6078 (UK) ?

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 08:46 AM

Wow, this takes me back. More reconstruction ahead.

Yes, Bill Briggs (the legendary hiker, climber, skier and singer "Brigger") learned the song from me. However, I never heard him sing it...he must have deferred to me over the Teton Tea, but it's great he carried it on. Because Brigger was so widely traveled in those days, it is quite possible he may have been the source of some of the various versions around the country.

I don't remember Brigger singing it with me as a duet, but that could have happened. We all "played in" a lot with each other in those days, a habit that was fun and expected then, but became more frowned on as people got into complex arrangements, and jamming around a campfire or living room or cabin or porch became less accepted. Part of the story of the transition of folksong from casual activity to profession, I guess.

I remember two guys who said they were from Pittsburgh -- one of whose name may have been Jay, that sounds right -- who joined us around the campfire over the Teton Tea, summer 1959 at Jenny Lake before the Park Service redesigned the campground and tanked its woodsy soul. They said they wanted to get together a songbook, and got quite a lot of songs from Brigger, me and a few others there. We may even have given them a copy of Brigger's mimeographed "Crud 'n Corruption" collection of the traditional songs he, I and a bunch of other chubbers had put together, a great cross-section of what we were all singing on the trail in the 50s. Thus the genesis, apparently, of the Coffee House Songbook, which, as it chanced, I never saw a copy of, or even knew it existed.

Given that Joan Baez was singing "Rider" presumably from fall 1959 on, we have to figure that she too was an important carrier of "I Know You Rider," as she was active on the coffeehouse etc. circuit and presumably a good few people learned it from her live performances even if it didn't make the cut onto her 1960 debut LP.

So my evolving ideas about the most likely transmission routes of the song would go something like:

1. Lomax to me.
2. Me to Tossi Aaron on the East Coast, Brigger in Wyoming, and Joan Baez on the west coast.
3. East Coast: me, Tossi Aaron and maybe some others to Martin & Neil and (eventually) James Taylor.
4. Nationwide: Brigger to various hearers in his travels east and west.
5. Serendipity Singers (based where?) come in there somewhere, but not clear how.
6. West Coast: Joan Baez to Judy Henske, Kingston Trio and so on to Janis Joplin and beyond.

Given the dates, '63-5, presumably the "Stoney" in New Orleans is one of those who learned the song as it circulated. Brigger did get to New Orleans though I did not; could be "Stoney" got it from him.

Steve, thank you. I will contact Silber.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: jaze
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 05:24 PM

Bob, Joan Baez' first lp came out in 1960. That recording included on the expanded cd includes songs recorded for that session that were not included on the lp. I hate to admit this but hers is the first version of this song I'm familiar with. It's possible I've heard other versions and just never noticed it. It's a very nice song.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Suffet
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM

Bob,

In The Coffee House Songbook (Oak Publications, 1966), Jay Edwards and Robert Kelley credit two sources for the song: you and Bill Briggs jointly, and someone whom they call "Stoney?" with a question mark. They collected the song from you and Briggs in the Grand Tetons National Park in Wyoming in the summer of either 1959 or 1960. They also collected the song from "Stoney?" in New Orleans some time between 1963 and 1965.

Can you shed any light on this? Stoney obviously learned the song later from one source or another, but did you teach it to Bill Briggs? Did the two of you perform it together for Edwards and Kelley? Do you even remember Edwards and Kelley?

My questions are not purely academic. You may be able to establish your copyright to the arrangement even at this late date, since there is independent documentation through Edwards and Kelley. Irwin Silber may still have their manuscript, as he was the owner of Oak Publications. If you wish to contact him, his e-mail address is: [e-mail]

Best of luck.

--- Steve Suffet

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 06:50 AM

Got curious and went looking to see if I could establish some further chronology.

(Excuse the indulgence, those who feel we've already spent too much time on the nitty-gritty, but this is fascinating to unsnarl...much of this I'm learning for the first time; I had no idea the song had such a wide circulation!)

The Kingston Trio recording seems to have been "Rider," credited to Shane/Reynolds/Henske, on their July 1963 Sunny Side LP. (Please correct me if this is not the song; I haven't managed to hear it to be sure. At any rate mid-'63 seems to be the earliest possible date they could have recorded the song, which is what I was trying to establish.)

But pretty certainly Judy Henske is their link to the song. If the dates I found are correct, she issued a single, "I Know You Rider"/"Love Henry," on January 1, 1963.

Now. Did Joan Baez did hear the song from me at that party in 1959? The more I think of it the more possible that seems, because that was a hot item in my repertoire then, and I was singing it everywhere I went. If so, the most direct transmission would be if Judy heard it from Joan. Or there could have been some intermediaries.

By the way, Judy Henske's version is pretty different, only uses the first and last verses of my version, adding a couple of other floating blues verses. The Trio version is similar but uses yet other loan verses.

Interestingly, I happened to run across the Martin/Neil lyrics and they use a verse version I hadn't remembered, one I at first revised, and later discarded:

                Lovin' you, baby's, just as easy as rollin' off a log...

So maybe they heard an early version, like Tossi Aaron's for example.

Also in the course of searching I found a statement that Tossi used this as her "signature song." She apparently called it "Rider."    I wonder if she, and the Trio after her, shortened the title out of some anxiety whether I might have copyrighted it as "I Know You Rider." Could that also have been why it was left off the Baez album?

Tossi, if she's still living, or her husband Lee Aaron, might know more. Tossi, are you out there?

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 05:41 AM

Martin,

Re the Trio recording, yeah, it had occurred to me that I hadn't checked the date it came out. I assumed Dave Guard would have been the likeliest one to pick the song up, but of course any Trio member, or friend of a member, might have.

John Stewart, hmmm. Actually, Judy Henske (whom I never met either, to my knowledge, but I met a lot of people, including some fairly striking singers whose names I didn't necessarily get, at singing parties on the coast) might be the one who scarfed up the song for the Trio...it was the sort of song that might well have caught her ear.

Any Californians have inside information on the song's earliest days there? I'd be interested to hear more. Because I was in the army and out of folk song circles c. 1960-63, which must have been the song's later circulating years, that's the piece I know least about.

All part of the evolving story...

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: M.Ted
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:48 PM

Bob,

I was thinking about this song a couple weeks ago, so your post gives some closure to a question that has puzzled me for years.

On behalf of every garage band that ever beat this song to death, I thank you for creating a great song.
It was really easy to learn and play, and it sounded great. Along with a very very, few other songs, it was something you could break in any situation where people had guitars but didn't quite know what to do, and make everybody happy--

As to James Taylor , have you ever noticed that the chords to "Fire and Rain" are suspiciously similar to the chords to "I Know You Rider"--food for thought, anyway--

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 05:28 PM

Bob C.

The Trio's recording of it was already at least 2 years after Dave guard had left and was replaced by John stewart, FYI. However, Judy Henske was pretty close to Dave and to the trio in san Francisco.

Subject: LYR ADD: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 03:04 PM

Interesting about the Baez. Funny thing, I met Joan at someone's Carmel house in, I think it was, September 1959 and she sang, and I sang, and my travel buddy Bill Briggs sang, but I don't remember whether I sang I Know You Rider or not, so I don't know if she heard it from me. It's possible.

Re the Serendipities, that's a cover I didn't know about.

Barry, thanks for letting me know about Old Joe's. Sandy's a great choice for the place. That's been the school of many a Boston area musician and a great place to hang out. I sang a lot there and learned a lot too.

Thought some of you might like to see a text of the song as I revised, arranged and performed it 1959-75 or so.


I KNOW YOU RIDER
Traditional, arranged by Bob Coltman.

I know you rider, gonna miss me when I'm gone,
I know you rider, gonna miss me when I'm gone,
Gonna miss your man, baby, from rollin' in your arms.

I laid down last night, babe, tried to take my rest…
But my mind kept ramblin' like wild geese in the west.

I know my woman bound to love me some…
'Cause she throws her arms round me like a circle round the sun.

I'm goin' down to the river, set down on a log…
If I can't be your man, honey, sure won't be your dog.

I cut your wood, baby, and I made your fire…
I tote' your liquor babe, from the Fresno Bar.

Just as sure as the birds fly high in the sky above…
Life ain't worth livin' if you ain't with the one you love.

I'm goin' down the road, get some better care…
I'm goin' back to my used-to-be rider, for I don't feel welcome here.

Sun gonna shine in my back door some day…
Wind gonna rise up, blow my blues away.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 02:05 AM

Hi Bob C, Just an aside . Old Joe Clark's is still alive & well with Sandy Shehian (SP?) at the helm.
Barry

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Wayne Mitchell
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 11:52 PM

Interesting. The only version I'm familiar with was done by The Serendipity Singers on their Take Your Shoes Off album in 1964. It's a fast, hard-driving rendition, from the woman's point of view, and it includes the verse which Bob C. says he didn't use: "Did you ever wake up and find your rider gone." Are there other versions which include the verse? The song is unattributed on that album.

Wayne M.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: jaze
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 06:34 PM

There is a version on Joan Baez' revised and expanded Ist lp/cd. It was recorded at the time of that first lp but not included.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 02:16 PM

I wish!

Molly Scott and I worked out a pretty interesting slow blazing duet folkrock version in the 1970s, performed once in a Charlemont, MA concert and never recorded to my knowledge.

I never "waxed" (Mylared? laserpitted?) "I Know You Rider" and now I'm afraid I'm past it for that particular song.

I'll reluctantly defer to other artists on this one. Clue: I did it in key of D with 6th string lowered to D, strong, slow, swinging and heavy on the downbeat. Quite different from, say, James Taylor's take on it, which was sort of thoughtful and laid-back.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 01:47 PM

Thanks for the background, Bob. Posts like that are my reason for coming to this forum.
Is there a recording of your original version of this song?

LEJ

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: jeffp
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 01:39 PM

Thank you, Bob. That is fascinating. I had only been familiar with the Grateful Dead and Seldom Scene versions. I'm considering using this song in an upcoming CD project. I'll credit you as you wish.

Jeff

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 10 Jan 06 - 12:55 PM

No, I'm far from Philadelphia now, as W.C. Fields liked to boast.

I should correct, and amplify on, my earlier post, and try to give a history of the song as best I know it, in response to some of the guesses (a few of which are wide of the mark) and questions above.

I got the song in the mid-1950s from the Lomaxes' 1934 American Ballads and Folk Songs (not Our Singing Country as I first remembered). It's on p. 196. Apparently I was the first to pick it up and sing it, though it had lain around unnoticed in that well-known collection for twenty years.

Peace's guess is right on the money. The Lomax headnote says "An eighteen-year-old black girl, in prison for murder, sang the tune and the first stanza of these blues." The Lomaxes added a number of "floating verses" from other, uncredited sources, and named it "Woman Blue."

So I resurrected and debuted the song. I followed the tune given in Lomax, roughly but not exactly, changed the song from a woman's to a man's viewpoint, dropped two verses, and was its first arranger, voice and guitar in a heavy drag downbeat, sort of an early folk-rock sound.

I sang it a lot in folk circles around Philadelphia, in concerts, around Boston, mostly at the legendary Old Joe Clarke's, and in Dartmouth Outing Club hiker/climber/skier circles, which took me around New York State and New England circa 1957-60. I also sang it in the west, in Wyoming/Tetons "Teton Tea Parties" and on the West Coast, especially in San Francisco and Los Angeles, late summer-early fall '59. Then I went in the Army (sorta like prison) and everything went on hold.

As previously stated, Tossi Aaron learned the song from me in Philadelphia around 1959. She sang it on her Prestige LP. The song traveled around for years among a few East and West Coast folksingers but was not sung by very many people (most white kids took a while to crash the blues).

No well-known singer recorded it until the Kingston Trio. They presumably got it from some West Coast singer who heard me in '59 -- it's possible they heard it from Tossi Aaron's LP, but that LP didn't get much West Coast circulation as far as I know. I never knew Dave Guard personally but he could perhaps have heard me in a West Coast hoot or concert, or else got it from someone who did. The Trio may well have been the Seldom Scene's source, as they drew from all sorts of music stylists.

The next breakout singer to record it was James Taylor in, I think, 1967. He picked it up during his teen years, probably at the hoots on Martha's Vineyard. It may have come from the Trio LP, Tossi's LP, or from some hiker or beach bum who got it from me via New England hoot circles.

Janis Joplin got the song almost simultaneously, perhaps from James, or vice versa. Her source could, I think, have been someone on the West Coast who'd heard it from me, or could have been James. Janis, blues freak that she was, was presumably Jerry Garcia and the Dead's source, perhaps via Jorma Kaukkonen who was the real blues fanatic in that crowd.

Later versions, like the Byrds, Martin-Neil, Rowan & Rice and so on, all derive from those early ones. There is, I think I can state categorically, no other source or root for this song apart from Lomax and me. I have never heard any other song that could be credibly a version of it.

Don't be misled by the Google associations. The song has nothing to do with C.C/Easy Rider or any of the other Rider songs; it is distinct and quite different.

Neither Blind Lemon Jefferson nor Leadbelly recorded the song in any form I know of, and I've heard virtually everything by both men. However, a Lomax verse I didn't use, "Did you ever wake up and find your rider gone?" is heard in various 1920s recordings, and "Sun goin' to shine in my back door some day / Wind's gonna rise up, blow my blues away" is of course universal from c. 1920 on.

The rest of the verses sound like good solid traditional blues but are unique to this song. However, because they were supplied by the Lomaxes, I think we have to worry, as with much Lomax material, that they may have been tinkered with by Alan Lomax, who did more rewriting than he admitted. They're great verses, though, and make the song what it is.

The unnamed Lomax source (doesn't that frost ya? couldn't they have given her name? or did they think that would have endangered her in prison?) is the originator of the core song. Wish we knew her name so we could credit her.

Probably I shoulda copyrighted it. (Everybody else since has.) But in those days a lot of us believed traditional songs were free as the air and should not be locked down. The music industry, obviously, disagreed.

You could, if you wish, credit it Traditional, arr. Bob Coltman.

I'm proud to be the guy who, after Lomax, started the song on its musical rounds. All credit to the Lomaxes for putting it together, and to Tossi, who knew a good song when she heard one.

Bob

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:23 PM

I've got a nice live version by Peter Rowan & Tony Rice.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Peace
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:16 PM

Thing is with this kinda song: there are a thousand versions. Someone somewhere wrote the first stanza. After that, it likely became 'add as you go' singing. Lyric improvisation as it were.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:09 PM

The Kingston Trio had a popular version of this on an album from 1963. Judy Henske is given credit for writing.

Subject: RE: Origins: I Know You Rider
From: GUEST,WmDelacroix
Date: 09 Jan 06 - 04:54 PM

"Traditional" seems a good credit for this one. Leadbelly's "Easy Rider" recording for Folkways doesn't bear much resemblance to The Dead's "I Know You Rider"--it's significantly different in both lyric and melody, the only common thread being the term "rider." It seems to be a standard of the blues lexicon. --- William Delacroix

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: jeffp
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM

So one would be safe in crediting it as "Traditional"?

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: GLoux
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 10:31 AM

Bob,

Are you still around Philadelphia?

-Greg

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: GUEST,joseacsilva
Date: 26 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM

Hi Johnny,
          Jorma Kaukonen recorded a great version of this song.You should check it.
      cheers
             Joe

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: Amos
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 11:19 PM

Bob:

A pleasure to see you in these hollowed halls!! Hope you come back often!


Amos

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 25 Apr 05 - 10:45 PM

As far as I know, I'm the guy that started the "I Know You Rider" chain.

I found it in John and Alan Lomax's "Our Singing Country," arranged it, sang it a lot around Philadelphia circa 1959-60. Tossi Aaron learned it, put it on an LP, it circulated, a bunch of people started singing it. It subsequently got picked up at the Martha's Vineyard hoots and James Taylor seems to have learned it there.

Lots of others have put it on record since. So far as I'm aware no earlier version was in circulation before mine.

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: Amos
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM

I remember it from the Fifties as well, being song by youthful wannabe folkies. Blind Lemon sure sounds right, but I have no authoritative source.

A

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: Arbuthnot
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 09:00 PM

My uncertian memory says that the source version was first recorded by Blind Lemon Jefferson, but I don't recall the official title - I do remember that the guy playing it to me pointed out that there were aspects in the lyrics which indicated that it was written by a blind man

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: JudyR
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 02:57 PM

Thank you for reminding me of that exciting song which all the coffee house singers were doing in the early 60's. It brings back such memories.

I put in "I Know You Rider" and "origins" on Google and this is part of what I got: "I Know You Rider," "C. C. Rider," "Easy Rider," and even "Trouble In Mind" are blues that have all borrowed from each other... I realize you already said you knew it had blues antecdents but that it was its own song. It said to look at the book Folk Song USA, Alan Lomax, Editor, New American Library. NOTE THIS: Recordings on file by: Dan Eillers, Dan Keding, Frank Hamilton (Long Lonesome Home), Lead Belly (Easy Rider).

I don't know the others, but if Leadbelly recorded it, that would have predated the Fred Neil version, although, again, it is listed as "Easy Rider." Hmmm.....

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From:
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 11:35 AM

I know a neat version by "The Big Three" (an early Cass Eliott group). It's on a 3 cd set called "troubadors of the folk era" .

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 11:01 AM

Tossi Aaron, long time Phila. resident, knew this song (don't know where she got it) and recorded it for Prestige (?) in about 1962. . . had taught it to MANY guitar students including friends of mine, in the late 1950s. That's the earliest version I know but it's obvious that Tossi didn't make it up.

Subject: RE: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 29 Oct 01 - 09:05 AM

Is it the same version the Seldom Scene/John Duffy did? Don't know the SS date off the top of my head.

Subject: 'I Know You Rider' origins
From:
Date: 28 Oct 01 - 08:54 PM

"I Know You Rider" is very well known in versions by the Grateful Dead and other performers who have learned it from them. However the song clearly predates the existence of the Dead as a group in any form. The Byrds recorded a great version in 1966 (it wasn't released until years later but is now available on the explanded "Fifth Dimension" CD), and also Vince Martin and Fred Neil issued a version in 1964! It was the lead-off cut of their Elektra album Martin & Neil, Tear Down the Walls -- Fred's first LP -- you can occasionally find this as a Japanese import CD. Is Fred the first guy to perform the song in a version recognizable as being essentially the same song the Dead did later? Or are there other pre-Dead versions I haven't run across?

Please note that in asking this question, I don't mean to ask if there are traditional blues uses of the VERSES the Dead sing. I know there are plenty of those. But "I Know You Rider" as we know it now is a distinctive song in its own right, not just a traditional blues lyric. It's characterized by a distintive melody line, a descending line which is sung over a cycle of major triads (without dominant 7ths), rather than over the normal 12-bar blues changes (I, IV, V with dominant 7ths). It's a song which is rooted in traditional blues but has its own identity and character. The Martin-Neil and Byrds versions are definitely the same song the Dead popularized. But who originated it? Any comments very welcome! E-mail me directly, [e-mail], and/or post results here. Thanks! -- Johnny Harper