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Lyr Req: Fine Sally (Brown Girl???)

DigiTrad:
AM I THE DOCTOR?
THE BROWN GIRL (2)
THE BROWN GIRL (Sally)
THE SAILOR FROM DOVER


kam 16 Feb 98 - 01:27 PM
Barry Finn 16 Feb 98 - 02:03 PM
toadfrog 13 Jan 03 - 01:52 AM
Joe Offer 13 Jan 03 - 04:24 AM
Malcolm Douglas 13 Jan 03 - 08:05 AM
Joe Offer 29 Nov 10 - 09:32 PM
Reinhard 29 Nov 10 - 10:57 PM
Jim Dixon 01 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM
Jim Dixon 01 Dec 10 - 12:44 PM
Jim Dixon 01 Dec 10 - 01:20 PM
JB3 02 Dec 10 - 05:48 AM
Jim Dixon 19 Mar 13 - 12:28 PM
Barbara Shaw 19 Mar 13 - 03:52 PM
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Subject: fine sally
From: kam
Date: 16 Feb 98 - 01:27 PM

anyone heard of the american folksong, Fine Sally? I am teaching an arrangement of it to my middle school chorus and I wanted to find the origin of the song. Thanks! JMatterajr@aol.com


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Subject: RE: fine sally
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Feb 98 - 02:03 PM

Could you give the chorus, Sally's very popular, more to go on would help. Good Luck, Barry
Messages from multiple threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: Lyr Add: FINE SALLY
From: toadfrog
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 01:52 AM

This is a fine song, I hope the DT has a place for it.
FINE SALLY
(Traditional?)

There was a rich lady, from London she came,
Fine Sally, fine Sally, fine Sally her name.
And she had more money than a king could possess.
Her neatness and her beauty was worth all the rest.

There was a young doctor who live-d nearby,
And it was on this young maid he casted his eye.
Controlled by her beauty, he held her most dear,
He courted her truly one day, plus one year.

One night as they pleasured he went to his knees
Crying, "Sally, oh Sally won't you marry me!"
She said, "I don't hate you Willie, nor no other man,
But to say that I love you is more than I can."

He clumb on his horse and away he did speed,
Sayin' "Sally, oh Sally, you'll pay for this deed!
I'll curse you Sally, all the rest of my days,
I'll never forgive you for your lyin' ways!"

Fine Sally took sick, and she know-ed not why,
Her chambers all thought that she surely would die,
They called for the doctor for want of a cure,
For her pain and her misery, they could not be endured.

He come up to her room, to her bed he drew nigh.
Her chambers they parted and moved to the side.
"Is that you, dear Willie, my sight it grows dim,
I fear for my present, and my future seems grim."

He said "Yes, I'm the doctor can cure or can kill,
But to say I forgive you is more than I will."
"Then damn your soul, Willie, you can be on your way,
For to beg you for mercy is not in my sway!"

From offen her fingers pulled diamonds ring three,
She says "Here is my token to remember poor me.
And as you dance on my grave sir, shed no tears for me,
But remember, you're dancing on Sally, your queen."

This is sung by Sheila Kay Adams, My Dearest Dear (2000). Liner notes say only, "I learned this ballad from Cas Wallin."


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Subject: RE: lyr req: Fine Sally
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 04:24 AM

The version in the Digital Tradition is called "Brown Girl (Sally)." It's similar to the one posted above, but not the same. I didn't find any other related songs here, but it sure seems we should have some. It does not seem to be related to the other "Brown Girl" songs we have. Here's the entry from the Traditional Ballad Index, which should give us a start.
-Joe Offer-

Rich Irish Lady, A (The Fair Damsel from London; Sally and Billy; The Sailor from Dover; Pretty Sally; etc.) [Laws P9]

DESCRIPTION: Sally at first scorns a suitor, then changes her mind and calls for him. She admits that she is dying for love of him. He informs her that he intends to dance on her grave. She takes three rings from her fingers for him to wear while dancing, then dies
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1845 (Journal from the Sharon)
KEYWORDS: courting dying funeral revenge sailor
FOUND IN: US(Ap,NE,MW,SE,So) Britain(England(South)) Ireland
REFERENCES (12 citations):
Laws P9, "A Rich Irish Lady (The Fair Damsel from London; Sally and Billy; The Sailor from Dover; Pretty Sally; etc.)"
Randolph 40, "Pretty Sally of London" (6 texts, 3 tunes)
Niles 64, "The Brown Girl" (1 text, 1 tune, listed as Child 295)
Sharp/Karpeles-80E 29, "Fair Sally (The Brown Girl)" (1 text, 1 tune -- a composite version)
JHCox 114, "Pretty Sally" (4 texts plus mention of 2 more; Laws does not list the "B" text as belonging here, but it clearly does.)
Vaughan Williams/Lloyd, p. 92, "The Sailor from Dover" (1 text, 1 tune)
SHenry H72, pp. 374-375, "Am I the Doctor?" (1 text, 1 tune -- a version with the hatred toned down and with verses reminiscent of "Glenlogie")
Huntington-Whalemen, pp. 111-112, "Pretty Sally" (1 text, 1 tune)
Darling-NAS, pp. 135-136, "A Rich Irish Lady" (1 text)
Silber-FSWB, p. 146, "A Rich Irish Lady" (1 text)
BBI, ZN2324, "A seaman of Dover, sweet William by name"
DT (295), AMIDOCTR* BRNGIRL*

RECORDINGS:
Cas Wallin, "Fine Sally" (on OldLove)
Loman D. Cansler, "Sally" (on Cansler1)
CROSS-REFERENCES:
cf. "The Brown Girl" [Child 295]
cf. "Glenlogie, or, Jean o Bethelnie" [Child 238] (lyrics in some texts)
ALTERNATE TITLES:
The English Lady Gay
Fine Sally
Notes: Considered by some to be a variant of "The Brown Girl." The plot is identical except that the male and female roles are reversed. Laws declares that the two should be considered separate but related ballads. - RBW
I added "sailor" as a keyword because at least some versions have a sailor as a protagonist. -PJS
File: LP09

Go to the Ballad Search form
Go to the Ballad Index Instructions

The Ballad Index Copyright 2002 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.


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Subject: RE: lyr req: Fine Sally
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 13 Jan 03 - 08:05 AM

Roud 180.

See also THE SAILOR FROM DOVER in the DT.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fine Sally
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 09:32 PM

I'm a little confused on Jon Boden's A Folk Song a Day. It's "The Brown Girl," as sung by Frankie Armstrong. Is that this song? They all end dancing on the cad's grave, so I think they're all the same song.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fine Sally (Brown Girl???)
From: Reinhard
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 10:57 PM

As the ballad index above wrote, "Considered by some to be a variant of "The Brown Girl." The plot is identical except that the male and female roles are reversed. Laws declares that the two should be considered separate but related ballads."

Frankie Armstrong's (and Jon Boden's) The Brown Girl is much more closer to Martin Carthy's which is in the DT as THE BROWN GIRL (2)


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Subject: Lyr Add: SALLY AND BILLY
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 12:29 PM

From Real Sailor-Songs by John Ashton (London: The Leadenhall Press, 1891), page 71:


SALLY AND BILLY

'Tis of a young sailor, from Dover he came.
He courted pretty Sally, pretty Sally was her name,
But she was so lofty, and her portion was so high,
That she on a Sailor would scarce cast an eye.

O, Sally, O, Sally, O, Sally, says he,
I fear that your false heart will my ruin be,
Unless that your hatred should turn into love,
I'm afraid that your false heart will my ruin prove.

My hatred's not to you, nor any other man,
But to say that I love you, is more than I can,
So keep your intentions, and hold your discourse,
For I never will marry you without I am forc'd.

When seven long weeks were over and past,
His pretty maid she fell sick at the last,
Entangled in love, and she knew not for why,
So she sent to the Sailor whom she did deny.

O, am I the doctor that you have sent for me?
Or, am I the young man that you'd wish to see?
O, yes, you're the doctor that can kill or cure.
The pain that I feel, love, is hard to endure.

O, Sally, O, Sally, O, Sally, says he,
Pray don't you remember how you slighted me?
How you have slighted me, my love, and treated me with scorn?
But now I will reward you for what you have done.

But what is past and gone, my love, forget, forgive,
And grant me a little while longer to live.
O, no, my dearest Sally, for as long as I breathe,
I'll dance on your grave, my love, that you lay underneath.

She took rings from her fingers by one, two, and three,
Saying, Here, my dearest Billy, in remembrance of me,
In remembrance of me, my love; when I am dead and gone,
Perhaps you may be sorry for what you have done.

So, adieu to my daddy, my mammy, and my friends,
And adieu to this young sailor, for he will make me no amends.
Likewise to this young sailor, for he will not pity me.
Ten thousand times over, my folly I do see.


See also:
THE SAILOR FROM DOVER from The Penguin Book Of English Folk Songs, in the DT.
AM I THE DOCTOR? from Henry, Songs of the People.
THE BROWN GIRL (Sally) from Sharp, English Folk Song from the Southern Appalachians.


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Subject: Lyr Add: SALLY SALISBURY
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 12:44 PM

From Historical Sketch of the Proudfit Family of York County, Pennsylvania compiled by Margaret Compton (Meadville, Pa., 1911), page 90:


Alexander Proudfit (3) had a fund of songs with which he often amused his children as they sat before the old stone fireplace in the living-room at Proudfit's Point. (He never sang psalms to his children. To use the inspired words for any purpose but worship was sacrilege.) My mother often recalled how she used to sit on one knee while "Nancy" occupied the other, and the father sang the old English or Scotch ballads popular in that day. She remembered snatches of some of them, as "The Blackbird," "Polly Van Lieuw," "Young Musgrave," and others less well known. A few months before her death there came into her mind the words and tune of one of these which had lain dormant in her memory for seventy years. As a lyric curiosity it seems worth preserving, and as there is probably no copy in existence except that which I wrote down from my Mother's lips, I append it here.


SALLY SALISBURY.

An Irish fair lady to London there came,
And Sally Salisbury they call-ed her name.
Her beauty was more than the King could express,
And her riches were more than the King could purchase.

A gallant young knight with ten thousand a year
A-courting unto this fair lady did steer;
But she being so lofty and her portion so high,
That on this young knight she would scarce cast an eye.

"Oh, Sally! Oh, Sally! Oh, Sally!" said he,
"Ain't you sorry that your love and mine can't agree?"
"Young man, I would have you to leave off your discourse,
For I never will wed you unless I am forced."

"Oh, Sally! Oh. Sally! Oh, Sally!" said he,
"I'm sorry that your love and mine can't agree.
I make no great doubt that your folly you'll see,
And then you'll be sorry that you slighted me."

Scarce a month's come, or scarce a month's passed,
When this young man heard of his love's fate at last:
She sent for this young man whom she'd slighted with scorn;
She's pierced to the heart and she knows not wherefrom.

When he came there he came to her bed-side:
"Lies the pain in your head, love, lies the pain in your side?"
"Oh, No!" she repli-ed, "the truth you hain't guessed;
The pain which I bear pierces me in the breast.

"You are the doctor, I sent for you here;
You are the one that can kill or can cure."
A-sighing and sobbing these words she did say,
"Without your assistance I'm ruined this day."

"Oh, Sally! Oh, Sally! Oh, Sally!" said he,
"Don't you mind the time when you slighted me?
I ne'er will forgive you as long as I draw breath,
But I'll dance on your grave when you're laid in the earth!"

"Farewell to my father; farewell to my friends;
Farewell to my true love, I'll make him amends."
Then off of her fingers pulled diamond rings three,
Saying, "Take these for my sake when you're dancing on me!"

"Farewell to my friends; farewell to my foes!
Farewell to this world, full of sorrows and woes!
I freely forgive him although he don't me.
Ten thousand times over my folly I see."

So now she is dead, as we do suppose,
And to the fair sex she's left all her fine clothes.
"Come all ye pretty maidens, take warning by me,
And treat your true lovers with civilitee."


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Subject: Lyr Add: SALLY
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 01:20 PM

From an article "The Transmission of Folk-Song" by Phillips Barry, A.M., in Journal of American Folk-Lore, Volume 27 (Lancaster, Pa.: American Folklore Society, Jan.-Mar., 1914), page 73:

SALLY*

1. There was a fair maiden, from Scotland she came,
Great riches and honor, and Sally by name;
Her riches were more than the king could possess,
And her beauty was more than her riches at best.

2. There was a poor boy who came to court her,
Whose wages were only one thousand a year,—
She being so wealthy, so lofty, so high,
That upon this poor (boy) she would scarce cast an eye.

3. "O Sally! O Sally! O Sally!" said he,
"I fear that your love and mine cannot agree,
Unless all your hatred should turn into love,
For your beauty's my ruin, I'm sure it will prove."

4. "No hatred for you, sir, nor no other man,
But as for to love you, I know I never can:
So you may retire, and end your discourse,
For I never will have you, unless I am forced."

5. "No forcing, dear Madam, and this you may own,
There are plenty of ladies who are living alone;
I'll go and I'll court one, in hopes you may rue:
So fare you well, Sally, I bid you adieu."

6. Three weeks had scarce come; three weeks had scarce passed,
When Sally was taken with love at the last,
Entangled in love, and she knew not for why;
But she sent for the young man she once did deny.

7. "Oh! am I the doctor, you send for me here?
Or am I the young man who once loved you so dear?"
"Yes, you are the doctor, can kill or can cure,
And without your assistance I'm ruined, I'm sure."

8. "O Sally! O Sally! O Sally!" said he,
"Don't you remember when you slighted me?
I courted with pleasure, you slighted with scorn,
And so now I'll reward you for what's past and gone."

9. "O Willie! O Willie! forget and forgive,
And grant me some longer in this world for to live!"
"No, Sally, I will not, not while I have breath;
But I'll dance on your grave when you're laid in the earth."

10. Then off from her fingers pulled diamond rings three,
Saying, "Take these, and wear them while dancing o'er me,
While dancing o'er Sally, o'er Sally your queen,
And her colors are there, now no more to be seen!"

11. Soon Willie was taken at hearing her doom,
And over his mind there grew a great gloom,—
Said he, "I'll retire, and lay by her side,
I'll wed her in death, and I'll make her my bride!"

* "Fair Sally," A (Folk-Songs of the North Atlantic States); melody from H. L. W. (Cambridge, Mass.); text from manuscript of M. A. S. (Sidney, Kan.), loaned by H. L. W.

This ballad is particularly interesting by reason of its close similarity in subject-matter, and in part in language, to "The Brown Girl."** In the version before us, Willie is made to relent; another text, however, lacking the last stanza,*** represents him as proud and unforgiving,—the character which the situation demands.**** Herein is added evidence that communal re-creation (in this case, the result of a less retentive memory) improves as well as alters ballads.

** Not "Lord Thomas and Fair Annet," but Child, 295.
*** From C. A. G. (Des Moines. Ia.), sister of M. A. S. The text lacks also the fifth stanza.
**** Concerning "The Brown Girl" (No. 295), Professor Child wrote: "In the point of the proud and unrelenting character of the Brown Girl it is original." Of the two versions recorded by Professor Child, the second (B) is the more nearly like "Sally."


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fine Sally (Brown Girl???)
From: JB3
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:48 AM

We have this song in my family in Pulaski County, Kentucky. My grandfather remembered his mother singing it when he was a boy, probably in the 19-teens to 1920's. The words are quite similar to those in the version above, posted by Jim Dixon.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE BROWN GIRL (from Campbell & Sharp)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 12:28 PM

From English Folk Songs from the Southern Appalachians collected by Olive Dame Campbell and Cecil J. Sharp (New York and London: G. P. Putnam's Sons, 1917), pae 145ff:


No. 36
The Brown Girl

A
Pentatonic. Mode 3.
Sung by Mrs. Mary Sands at Allanstand, N. C., July 31, 1916


1. There was a rich lady; from England she came,
Fine Sally, fine Sally, fine Sally by name,
And she had more money than the king could possess,
And her wit and her beauty was worth all the rest.

2. There was a poor doctor who lived hard by,
And on this fair damsel he cast his eye.
Fine Sally, fine Sally, fine Sally, says he,
Can you tell me the reason our love can't agree?
I don't hate you, Billy, nor no other man,
But to tell you I love you I never can.

3. Fine Sally took sick and she knew not for why,
And she sent for this young man that she was to deny.
He says: Am I the doctor that you have sent for,
Or am I the young man that you once did deny?
Yes, you are the doctor can kill or can cure,
And without your assistance I'm ruined, I'm sure.

4. Fine Sally, fine Sally, fine Sally, says he,
Don't you remember when you slighted me?
You slighted me highly, you used me with scorn,
And now I reward you for what's passed and gone.

5. What's passed and gone, love, forget and forgive,
And spare me a while longer in this wide world to live.
I don't want you, Sally, in the durance of my breath,
But I'll dance on your grave when you're laid in the earth.

6. Off from her fingers pulled diamond rings three.
Here, take these rings and wear them when you're dancing on me,
Then fly from your colour and be no more seen
When you have done dancing on Sally your queen.

B
Hexatonic. Mode 3, b.
Sung by Mrs. Tom Rice at Big Laurel, N. C., Aug. 17, 1916


1. Fine Sally, fine Sally, fine Sally, said he,
It's don't you remember when I courted thee?
I courted you for love, you denied me with scorn,
And now I'll reward you for things past and gone.

2. For things past and gone, love, forget and forgive,
And grant me a little longer on this earth to live.
I never will forgive you in the durance of my breath,
And I'll dance on your grave when you're lying in the earth.

3. Then off her fingers pulled diamond rings three,
Says: O wear these for my sake when you're dancing on me,
And fly from your colours and be no more seen
When you're done dancing on Sally your queen.

4. Farewell to old father and old father's friends,
Farewell to this young man; God make him amends.
Farewell to this whole world and all . . . . . .

C
Hexatonic. Mode 3, a.
Sung by Mr. Mitchell Wallin at Allanstand N. C., Aug. 4, 1916


1. There was a rich lady; from London she came,
And Sally, sweet Sally, fair Sally by name.
She were wounded in love; she knew not for why.
She sent out to the young man she used to deny.

D
Pentatonic. Mode 3.
Sung by Mr. Wm. Riley Shelton at Alleghany, N. C., Aug. 29, 1916


1. It's where does your pain lie? Does it lie in your side?
O where does your pain lie? Does it lie in your head?
The pain that torments me, love, I surely confess,
The pain that torments me, love, lies in my breast.

E
Heptatonic. Mode 1. a + b (mixolydian).
Sung by Mr. N. B. Chisholm at Woodridge, Va., Sept. 23, 1916


1. Are you the doctor they sent for me here?
Or are you the young man that I loved so dear?
Or are you the doctor can kill or can cure?
Without your assistance, I'm ruined, I'm sure.

F
Sung by Mrs. Moore, Rabun Co., Ga., May 2, 1909. (Tune not noted.)

1. There was a young doctor; from London he came.
He courted a damsel called Sarah by name.
Her wealth it was more than the king could possess.
Her beauty it was more than her wealth at the best.

2. O Sarah, O Sarah, O Sarah, said he,
I am truly sorry that we can't agree,
But if your heart don't tum unto love,
I fear that your beauty my ruin will prove.

3. O no, I don't hate you, and no other man,
But to say that I like you is more than I can.
So now you may stop with all your discourse,
For I never 'low to have you unless I am forced.

4. After twenty-eight weeks had done gone and passed,
The beautiful damsel she fell sick at last.
She sent for the young man she once did deny,
For to come and see her before she did die.

5. Am I the young man that you sent for here?
Or am I the young man that you loved so dear?
You're the only young doctor can kill or can cure,
And without your assistance I'm ruined, I'm sure.

6. O Sarah, O Sarah, O Sarah, said he,
Don't you remember you once slighted me?
You slighted, deviled me, you slighted me with scorn,
And now I'll reward you for things past and gone.

7. Forget and forgive, O lover, said she,
And grant me some longer a time for to live.
O no, I won't, Sarah, enduring your breath,
But I'll dance on your grave when you lay in cold death.

8. Gold rings off her finger ends she pulled three,
Saying: Take these and wear them when you dance on me.
Ten thousand times over my folly I see.

9. Now pretty Sarah is dead, as we all may suppose.
To some other rich lady willed all her fine clothes.
At last she made her bed in the wet and cold clay.
Her red, rosy cheeks is moulderin' away.

[Tunes are given for versions A-E.]


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Fine Sally (Brown Girl???)
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 13 - 03:52 PM

Is Karen K. still around on mudcat? Frank and I accompanied her singing this song several years ago at a folk festival. Can't remember if it was NOMAD or NEFFA. Karen said she got it from Sheila Kay Adams, but perhaps she may know more about the song if you can find her to contact.


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