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Folk Club Nightmares
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Subject: Folk Club Nightmares From: Matthew Edwards Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:11 PM I went to a new folk club last night, and had one of the most peculiar experiences of my life: I walked into the pub where the club had been advertised, and was directed to a back room where two other bearded gentlemen were sitting. They were the "folk club"! and for two hours we struggled to find songs or tunes we each knew (but without much success!) Finally in desperation I "remembered" that I had to catch a bus home; as I left they did invite me to return and bring some friends. The whole experience was so painful, especially following the delights of Whitby ( Captain Cook Festival )that it is quite funny in retrospect. It does however bring to mind other bad memories of some folk clubs: the one where you sing the song that turns out to be the resident's "special" song, that nobody else is allowed to sing, another where everybody sings and plays only "Dirty Old Town" (badly), etc. etc. The Shambles started a thread about this some time ago Does anyone really like folk clubs?, but it would be interesting to hear of other people's nightmarish experiences. In fairness I'd have to add a tribute to those who have managed to keep clubs going through all the lean years, and a night such as last Sunday at Whitby more than makes up for all the bad nights. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: 53 Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:21 PM i haven't been to any folk clubs, but i sure have played a lot of country and rock an roll bars that were quite bad as well, makes you not want to ever play music again. BOB |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,Russ Date: 31 Oct 01 - 02:49 PM Matthew, If I may respectfully offer a slightly different take on the situation you describe. The club I have been a member of for 21 years has had its ups and downs. In the early days there were nights when I was one of the two people present. I stuck with it and now we have a relatively large stable membership base and always have a decent turnout. I stuck with it for several reasons. One reason was sort of theoretical. I love the concept of a folk club, a venue where people can make their own music instead of being consumers of the products of the entertainment establishment. I also learned a long time ago that "If I don't do it, it won't get done." The commitment to an ideal doesn't buy me anything unless I am willing to make an effort to instantiate it. So I bit the bullet on those dreadful nights and kept coming back because I really wanted the organization to survive and prosper. I really wanted a group of people to share music with. Since there was no ready-made group available I figured I'd help create one. I also knew that the early days of an organization are the time when you, an individual, can exert the most influence over it. I kept coming back and worked long and hard to get the club to manifest my ideals about the way such a group should be. I've never regretted the god-awful sessions such as you describe because in the long run all my efforts have paid off. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Harry Basnett Date: 31 Oct 01 - 03:10 PM I've got to agree with Russ, Matthew. I think we've all experienced bad nights with clubs with audience and singers thin on the ground. You didn't actually say where this 'new club' is but I would respectfully suggest those two guys are attempting to do something worthwhile and could do with some support...you never know--from little acorns and all that.... Best wishes Harry (Open Door Folk Club, Failsworth...see, couldn't resist a plug!) |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Matthew Edwards Date: 31 Oct 01 - 05:06 PM Russ and Harry, thank you both for your input. It is thanks to the dedication of people like yourselves that folk and traditional music is still there for the rest of us to find. Of course the songs and the music are worth playing, even if it is only to an audience of one or two. Russ, I greatly admire and respect the effort you have given to create your club, and I would love to come and visit it (where is it?). Similarly, Harry, my congratulations on persevering through those godawful nights when nobody turns up, and making a go of it in Failsworth. I didn't think it fair to name the club, but if anyone is in Birkenhead on a Tuesday night then DO visit the Stork Hotel in Price Street (off Hamilton Square), and help this club get off the ground. I can't usually make Tuesday nights, but perhaps I'll try again when I'm able to do so. I had really only sought to comment, humourously, on some of the weaknesses in the club scene to which The Shambles had drawn attention in his earlier thread. There are some excellent clubs out there, and some of these were mentioned in Aren't folk clubs brilliant? , but there still are some where some fresh blood is desperately needed. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,Russ Date: 01 Nov 01 - 09:06 AM Matthew, the next time you're in Wilmington, DE, USA, check out the Brandywine Dulcimer Fellowship. First Friday of every month. Grace Lutheran Church. 7:30 until midnight or later. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,Russ Date: 01 Nov 01 - 09:07 AM OOPS! In spite of the name, all acoustic instruments welcome. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Mr Red Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:32 AM One way to get folk clubs thriving is to encourage young people. they will come to view the talent come for their 20 minutes of glory have an attention span of 1 minute and be godawlfully unpracticed except the good ones who will be so good you will want to smash your guitar or their fingers. They will play top 20 music you don't understand (or want to) And they will be nothing like wot we were when we were that age. ah! the power of forgetfullnes. BTW UK ceilidh dancers should go dance to Pepper in the Brandy, they are young and raw but full of energy and plenty of stage presence. AND willing to learn. They will be at C# House soon (see Webfeet or go to cresby.com and click from there). |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,AliUK on the works comp. Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:42 AM I certainly remember nights like this at the folk club I used to help run. Embarrassing, especially when someone was coming along for the first time and there's you the other organiser and the barman. But perserverance does pay off in the end. And a change of name and a slightly different philosophy helps too. To get this slightly back on track...this wasn't a flok club nightmare, but a folk festival nightmare. The guy I used to sing with and I went to Cambridge folk Festival and managed to get a spot in the club tent ( this was an extrememely important stepping stone, we felt, at the time to help us kick start a "serious"career in the clubs). we had both imbibed strenuously the night before, and unbeknownst to me, he had imbibed a bit more during the morning. We got up on stage infront of a tent full of people and he started to play, and I sing. Unfortunately he had put the capo on the wrong fret and I was trying to sing about two octaves higher than normal. I kept telling him to stop and change the capo and he just carried on obliviously. the boos from the audience didn't do much for my confidence and the MC wouldn't let us try and redeem ourselves as he had a full plate that day. Exit red-faced singer and drunkenly smiling guitarist. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: 53 Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:04 PM explain to me just what a folk club is please. BOB |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,Russ Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:41 PM Contest nightmare. I attended an old time string band contest. An intermission was announced so that the judges' score sheets could be collected and tabulated. The intermission was to be filed in an "open stage" sort of way. Volunteers from among the audience/attendees were to be given a few minutes on stage for a tune or so. A couple I know started what was to have been their 3-minute set. At some point during their first song the MC was called backstage for some sort of emergency conference having to do with the judging results. The first song ended, the couple looked around for the MC and didn't see her, and so began their next selection. Thus they continued for what came to seem like several days. You see, he sang melody and she sang harmony, but rarely in the same key. Those of us who knew them always assumed that the brief periods when they sang in the same key were the results of purely random chance. It was morbidly fascinating to watch the audience. When the couple began, people were mostly chatting and paying minimal attention to what was happening on the stage. As the couple went on, and on, and on, people started to notice. Conversations gradually stopped and heads gradually turned toward the stage. Looks from mild amusement to absolute horror began to appear. People suddenly began to realize that they needed to be somewhere/anywhere else, and as quickly as possible. Finally the MC reappears to get things moving again and looks with bewilderment over a sea of empty seats. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Matthew Edwards Date: 01 Nov 01 - 06:06 PM Thank you Russ for that hilarious story,(Delaware is a long way from Birkenhead but I will remember your invitation), and AliUK for your Cambridge disaster tale; thats just what I was thinking of in this thread - those embarrassing nights when nothing goes right. 53, check out the links I gave earlier and you'll get some idea of what a "folk club" is: there are good and not-so-good ones, and a good night at one of the better ones can leave you feeling so excited about the music that you can put up with the bad nights for a good while. A folk club is usually run by a couple of dedicated enthusiasts in the back room of a pub where, if you are lucky, the landlord or landlady serves real ale. There is often a group of friendly people who can sing or play and who will welcome a newcomer. Sometimes there is a guest artist, but some of the best nights happen in a singaround where people just sing their favourite songs, or play their tunes and they all inspire each other to bring out their very best. When this happens the result is pure magic. Come over to Britain one day and hear for yourself. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: 53 Date: 01 Nov 01 - 08:26 PM thanks for the info, and maybe 1 day i'll make it over. BOB |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Nov 01 - 09:27 PM You enter the folk club, and it's VERY smoky...so much so that if the floor fell away, you could probably walk quite safely on the fumes. And you don't smoke. At first you can't see much, except for this girl with spiked hair and a nose ring. She directs you to the stage. You wonder where she got the tattoo, cos you've never seen one like that before. You tune up. It's kind of hard to see, because the place is dimly lit and everything seems to be either black or dark purple...or maybe deep green...hard to tell. As you begin your first song you gradually become aware of the presence of an audience. The reason you didn't spot them at first was because they were all wearing black clothes and they just sort of disappeared into the background. However, there are little details that begin to emerge through the haze...a plethora of nose rings, eyebrow studs, tongue jewels, and other bright little objects are picking up the light. No safety pins. This is an upscale and sophisticated venue. The faces are very pale in general, so you begin to notice them too...they are wearing looks that vary from vacant, to dispossessed, to bored, to vaguely hostile. It is plainly evident that they like neither you nor your music. You look around desperately, and keep playing. And you still have 16 songs to go... - LH |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: 53 Date: 01 Nov 01 - 09:48 PM i think that i'd rather play a rock venue or a country venue, at least there they dance, do they ever dance at a folk club? BOB |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Liz the Squeak Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:37 AM When the MC got so drunk he started to applaud loudly 3 verses from the end of my song..... every time.... Me, The Seal (Sidmouth/UK festival goers will know him... when he laughs, he sounds like a seal barking...), and Lady P in a Les Barker gig. That's his nightmare..... The MC who only ever sang 4 songs, every week, but hey, it was his club..... wasn't it?? The singaround in a long thin bar where no-one wanted to move out of their seats and no-one could hear the other end of the room.... The singaround in the bar at a festival where I was loudly harmonising with and outsinging a group of blokes, only to find they were the Wilson family and I'd upstaged them...... The concert where they had Les Barker following Huw and Tony Williams... the same concert where Les did Jason and the Arguments just after doing Captain Indecisive. He hadn't realised the 'chorus' of one would nicely fit the other..... (We're arguments, that's who we are... no we're not... yes we are.... Errrrr......!) The guest night where they didn't all turn up and those that did should have stayed at home and finished drinking.... we booked this group 3 times and every time they were no shows or too drunk to perform... but hey, wasn't one of them the MC's nephew...? Shall I go on?? LTS
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Gervase Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:31 AM Aargh! Liz, you and Seal in the same room would be too much. I'm sure there's a line in the Geneva Convention to that effect. Come to think of it, with your laugh and his, if you got the timing right you'd get a sort of donkey Dopler effect! |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:37 AM Bob/53: Interesting question. The folk club I attend most regularly often has a 'floor-spot' (kinda like one of several mini support acts) of some local dancers. Obviously this means that the dancing is part of the performance rather than the participation. Usually, there isn't enough room to get up and dance in these places... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: 53 Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:49 AM thanks for the info about dancing. BOB |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:33 PM 53 - I have seen people dance at folk clubs on occasion. It's not common, but it has been known to happen. The thing I always loved about folk music was that it WASN'T dance music! (meaning....some people there actually listen to the words!) - LH |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Linda Kelly Date: 03 Nov 01 - 02:33 PM I was trying to think of some nightmares, but I've only had reasonably pleasant experiences and then I remembered the time I 'corpsed' whilst singing Blood and Gold -'Oh Mothers sisters wives weep no more' and boy I didn't -hysterics- my singing partner Hazel staring on in amazement pinching me to stop me laughing and then I had to abandon it completely -truth is I have no idea why I found it so funny...... |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Robin2 Date: 03 Nov 01 - 10:42 PM Good Lord, all of you have convinced me never play folk clubs as long as I live... I can relate to you, Little Hawk For years our audience seemed to be middleaged people, so much so that we felt our music would be a dying art...now more and more of our audience are pierced, tattooed, wiccan pagan body-modifyed souls that look to us for enlightenment (gulp) It pays the rent :>) Robin |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: 53 Date: 03 Nov 01 - 10:44 PM sounds like a rock and roll club to me. BOB |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Robin2 Date: 03 Nov 01 - 11:02 PM BOB, yep, you are toooo right |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 03 Nov 01 - 11:36 PM A nightmare, is 43 consecutive gigs in a row!
Awh.....Sweet Morphius engulf me your arms again. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Harry Basnett Date: 04 Nov 01 - 05:17 AM Now dear fellow 'catters let me explain a little about Folk Clubs for, methinks, there seems to be a little confusion... Alas...most of the public houses have now been taken over by brewery chains and turned into open-plan monstrosities with the smaller rooms no longer available...but where these can be found the folk club still struggles on, some more successful than others...singers and instrumentalists now outnumber the audience in most cases.Thanks to hard-working and dedicated organisers and members they still provide a platform for budding talent and an opportunity to see the 'bigger names' in a smaller, friendly environment away from the festival stage. It's a bit of a trend these days to find singers' nights sometimes better supported than guest nights...which is a shame... And so...despite struggling to find suitable venues, lack of interest by the media and a pre-occupation with the festival circuit the British Folk Club is still alive and kicking...let's not concentrate too much on the nightmares...enjoy what we've got...improve it...support it! I suddenly found myself getting serious.....sorry about that (sort of). Harry. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Dave the Gnome Date: 04 Nov 01 - 07:13 AM Spot on, Harry. As a club organiser of hrmphermutter... years standing I agree. Folk clubs are still alive and kicking - despite of rather than with the help of the big breweries, the media etc etc. We have poorly attended nights at ours (White Lion, Swinton, every Monday!) and, like yours, singers nights are sometimes better attended than guest nights. We alternate between the two btw. There has been some nights when I have opened up at 8(ish) the guest has arrived at 8:30 and we have exchanged stories until 9:30 by which time another few have turned up and we have decided to have a go! If, on a singers night, there is only half a dozen in we will have a very informal night of chat, politics, religion, song and beer - and on occasions people have said it was the best night they have had for years. We have been at the Lion for nearly 20 years now and a few venues before so I guess something must be right. I would suggest that you persevere, Matthew. It is the people that make the folk club. Become a regular. Make people welcome. Do your own thing. But above all keep music live. Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Matthew Edwards Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:24 AM Dave and Harry thanks for your remarks. Of course I shall persevere. Congratulations Harry on the success of your Failsworth Extravaganza Details here, which I'm sorry I had to miss.That is a great example of spreading and sharing the music we love. Sounds like a good time was had by all and I hope poor Jez Lowe didn't get too much covered in drool! It doesn't seem fair that he should look so handsome and sing beautifully as well! I see Dave the Gnome is suggesting a Manchester Mudcat Meet on Manchester Meet. Sounds like a nice idea, so count me in. However in the spirit enjoined on us by Max, to go out and make our music known let us invite non-'Catters as well. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Harry Basnett Date: 04 Nov 01 - 08:26 AM This could turn into a folk club support group thread but I've got to agree with you, Dave. Low attendance nights can turn into great informal sessions with much conversation and people willing to try out new songs they've been secretly trying to perfect. Lord knows we've had a few at the Open Door(Sundays, Bulls Head, Oldham Road, Failsworth...at least one guest night a month....plug,plug,plug....never miss an opportunity...). I must mention our organisers, Pauline and John who've put one hell of a lot of work into revitalising the club when it seemed in grave danger of folding! Sorry about the repeat message but I messed up a line break and missed out a chunk on the background to clubs in the '60's and '70's before the breweres struck and tried to repeat it before I realised what I'd done!!! Good luck, Matthew...good luck, Dave and club organisers and members everywhere. Best wishes.......Harry. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Nov 01 - 11:16 AM I was at a nice little folk club last night, actually, in Orangeville, Ontario, Canada, and got to see Rick Fielding play. The club is run by a guy named Wayne King, who owns a music store in Orangeville called "Acoustic Traditions". Orangeville is a very pretty town, and the concert was held at the Greystone Inn, which is a beautiful old restaurant with very good food, and wine that is priced way beyond my budget! Rick played a lot of really old folk music, plus a couple of orginals, on the usual bewildering variety of instruments...6-string, 12-string, banjo, and autoharp. His 12-string technique was particularly stunning. I got to accompany on harmonica on 3 numbers, one of which left me pretty breathless. Not a nightmare at all, which I guess would prompt the question...why is it on this thread? There are still some great little folk clubs out there, and any number of great musicians to play in them. - LH |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Matthew Edwards Date: 05 Nov 01 - 05:42 PM A folk club support group sounds like a good idea, Harry. Perhaps someone could volunteer to be a therapist specialising in folk club organiser's problems. He/she could deal with such issues as: "the guest who never arrived", the visitor who always sings "Danny Boy", the clash of dates with Eliza Carthy on tour, and the double booking with the Ladies Darts Night. More seriously is there any directory of folk clubs? So that if I were holed up in a strange town at night, (such as Manchester), I could find a backroom in a pub where somebody will be making nice music. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,Pavane Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:33 AM Many years ago, I turned up at a venue (Clydach, in the Swansea Valley) where a friend was trying to start a new club. Unfortunately for the club there was a clash of events, as there was a Darts Final in progress and there was nowhere for the music. My friend had brought some of her friends along, and to cut a long story short, I ended up married to one of them (for 27 years so far). Does this qualify under the thread title? PS The friend went on to become one of the organisers of the Pontardawe Festival |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:33 AM Awful name "folk club" dont you think?. Ours is called "xxxxx folk club" and no matter how hard I try I cannot find a snappy and meaningful alternative. We have thought about "accoustic music club" which is to broad to have meaning because what we really want is the "folk type" musician and audience (there I go again...can't stay away from the word "folk"). The one man and his dog folk clubs embarrass me too. In my case I am one of the organisers (along with Dave T Gnome) and I suffer on poor attandance nights because I somehow feel it's my fault the audience didn't turn up. DTG agrees...he thinks it's my fault too :-)... Spot |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 06 Nov 01 - 08:37 AM Our local one's called 'The Song Loft' because, well I don't know really. But 'Folk' isn't mentioned, anyway |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,Spot the Dog Date: 06 Nov 01 - 09:12 AM The name of the club is not the issue for me....It's how you decribe it's function. What kind of club or venue is the song loft? Spot |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: The_one_and_only_Dai Date: 06 Nov 01 - 10:00 AM It's a folk club, Spot - a biweekly gig in a small room upstairs in a pub, with a guest spot and some floorspots. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,Brian Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:07 AM Not so much a nightmare, more a source of amusement. A club I used to run was getting later and later starting, because people turned up later and later (a common problem). I tried the 'if we start earlier, we'll get more music in' line. Everyone agreed, but nothing changed. Eventually, I put it in the programme, and announced that next week we WILL start at 8pm. The following week, I turned up early, went in and started singing at 8pm, prompt. Just me, and the empty chairs. Half way through the fifth or sixth song, one of our regulars opened the door, stopped, apologized for interrupting my 'practice', and went back to the bar! You can't win! A genuine folk club nightmare. Many years ago, I went to a festival, and was going on from there on a weeks holiday. At the festival, I picked up the local folk magazine for the area I was going to visit (I'll not say where). There was an advert for a group I particularly wanted to see, who were going to be on, only a few miles from where I was staying. On the appropriate evening, my friend and I set off on atrek (what seemed like) half way up a mountain on narrow lanes. We found the venue and knew immediately something was wrong - empty car park, pub that had become a restaurant etc. We went and checked. 'Sorry, there's nothing on here tonight', we were told. We showed them the mag, and asked for directions. 'This is the place advertised, but we know nothing about it.' we were told. Back in the car (cursing), we checked the address list for the folk club running the event. Same night, different pub and only a mile from where we were staying! Back we went, found the pub, found the folk club, and went in - late. We swelled the throng to nine, including the guest (not the group, we'd set off to see). Got on the list for a floor spot. Then waited for the club to start. The organiser got up ang 'sang' - unaccompanied rock and roll, lacking in tune or anything else! Oh good!! All of the other floor spots (four friends, who had been sat together) were good, as was the guest. During the interval, I approached the organiser about his ad in the magazine. 'That doesn't come out until next week', he replied. I'd picked up a copy five day previously, and a hundred miles away. I also made bloody sure he saw it, too - so closely, in fact, he almost wore it nasally. It didn't help, I never did get an explanation. I also had a chat with the four other floor singers, and asked if the club was always like this. 'We were going to ask you that, we're only visiting!' 'Yes us too.' So out of nine people in the room, the guest and six of the audience were visitors to the area. I've visited the area since, but never haver been back to the folk club! That one was my nightmare! Brian. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: Gervase Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:41 AM As for a directory of clubs, the EFDSS is compiling one, while Martin Nail has some good UK resources on his site. On the running of a club or session, Hamish Currie from the Lombardy club has some excellent material here. There are also some good resources on the folking.com site, including a clubs list. |
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Subject: RE: Folk Club Nightmares From: GUEST,Can't say as someone might recognise the vil Date: 06 Nov 01 - 11:48 AM Most cringeworthy moment at my local folk club was when our local 'ethno musicologist'(his words, not mine) drilled holes in a carrot and tried to play it like a tin whistle...not very successfully. The regulars were used to his strange musical contraptions, but I hate to think what the guests thought. He does manage to get a pretty good sound out of a length of ski pole! All true, I kid thee not. Somebody in Edinburgh |
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