BS: America: the World hates you

Subject: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:38 AM

Does anyone have info on the news story in which an Anti-U.S. protester in Pakistan was waving a sign that said (in English) "Think America Why the World Hates You" or something like that. I have trouble with that mentality whether it is voiced by a radical muslim or a snitty European. The last time that I checked, the WTC bombing killed people from about 60 different nations. If the world hates us, what in the hell were all those people doing here. If the world hates us then why do people from every nation in the world immigrate here. Ditto for the 8 million plus muslims who are citizens here.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: 53
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:46 AM

ditto, to everything you posted that was a good post, if they hate america, then they can get the hell out, cause we don't need them anyhow. BOB

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:57 AM

It's the same mentality that says things like, the French are rude. I went to France and everyone was really nice to me. I was shocked and amazed. All my life I heard, French people are pompous and arrogant blahblahblah. That was certainly not the experience I had. Everyone I encountered was pleasant and willing to help - maybe because I made the effort to speak a little French, and not insist that they spoke English. Funny how that works.

I know there are people who hate America. There are plenty of Americans who hate other people too. Anyway, I still believe most people are good and kind and willing to aid their fellow man, and that MOST people DON'T hate us. So there. :-P

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:58 AM

And do you think the world hates you?

If the world did really utterly hate you then the situation you describe would not have arisen - no-one would migrate to the States, and the WTC would have only had US citizens inside.

If you seek truth, rational debate, and logically coherent statements, do not look for them in the placards of demonstrators at a rally.. do not seek them either in the statements of politicians or newspaper headlines...

you won't find them there...

Cheers

Steven

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:00 PM

theyre ignorant. and theyve been fed propaganda for years. Admitedly While US foreign policy has sometimes been more expedient than farsighted they did not warrant this kind of an attack and this hatred. The drive for modernization in the middle east and much of the Islamic world has failed over the last 40 years, they see the west getting richer and more powerful so they need someone to blame and who to blame except the last superpower, which is the main exporter of western culture, consumerism etc. THere was an excellent article in last Saturdays Globe and Mail by a (Muslim) Harvard professor that stated exactly that, much of the so called roots of the problem lie in the Islamic world. Ill try to find it. (They of course have seized on the one thing that didnt come out of the west and that is Radical Islam). I dont know where its headed but I can say that an Iranian fellow I shared a house with said that many of the young people in Iran dont care for radical Islam, they just want to live like in the west, and the young in fact are the greatest danger to the Revolutionary guard.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:00 PM

Not surprising....We've had about two dozen American bashing threads HERE.......It's the way of things.....

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:05 PM

If America goes around bombing other countries without trying to talikng about peace and trying to resolve suitutions then you wonder why other countries don't like you. I beleive in turning the other cheek, or if it get it wrong then I'll say I was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:11 PM

Yes, well, most of us only have one other cheek, don't we? So what do you do when that runs out?

You can only reason with reasonable people.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:14 PM

Well good for you, Tam the bam. I wonder, however, were you to lose a loved one, as so many did at the WTC, in your own country, if you would feel so charitable about it.

Kim: Of course the French were nice to you! Who could not be nice to Kim C.? :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: SDShad
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:20 PM

Well, Kim, I've got two to spare after those. Usually works better to ask them to kiss those two, but.... :-)

But so long as we're using Jesus-talk here, I don't think we can take him too literally on the "running out of cheeks" argument, since this is the same guy who, when asked, "Master, how many times should I forgive my brother? Seven?" replied, "Seven? No, Seventy times seven."

Just picking nits.

C.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:23 PM

Tam misses my point. It is inaccurate to say that other countries do not like the U.S. Rather, the media feeds us sound bites or footage of the most vocal critics rather than emphasizing the strong support that is there as well. Then people feel justified in making gross generalizations about how the "world" or "countries" feel about us.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:28 PM

My therapist ex wife would call that a projection. The person holding the sign hates us, and, he's looking for a "club" (someone to agree with him)

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: bob jr
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:41 PM

well i am gonna throw my two cents into the ring here because as much as i abhor the actions of those extremists on sept 11 americans need to wake up to how you are percieved by the rest of the world. think about american actions in guatemala nicauraga iran (backing the shah) israel etc think about americas' govt backing tinpot dictators in indonesia for the past 40 odd years so you could get cheap shoes, think of american companies exploiting cheap labour in india while at the same time pollutting and killing people there (bopol you all must remeber that ) remeber the affluent lifestyle you enjoy comes at a cost for people living elsewhere in the third world and resentment is bound to follow. as for what these extremists had against america speciffically well that would take about 3 hours to explain but its worth your while to find out its always wise to understand your enemies motives.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 12:47 PM

You mean how we are percieved by SOME people in some places. And our actions in a lot of those places may not have been brilliant, but probably aren't as bad as SOME people paint them. For example, I'm not sure that backing the Shah was so bad when you consider the two decades of rule by religious fanatics that followed his ouster.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:00 PM

SDShad, of course you are right about that. The point I was trying to make is, what do you do when the 490 times run out? What do you do when there is nothing else to discuss?

I don't recall that Jesus reasoned with the moneychangers in the temple.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:02 PM

Dont forget Bob jr. not all of us approve of what our governments have done over the years. Some of us are history majors, and we know full well what has gone on.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:04 PM

A lot of people hate a lot of (other) people. I would agree that it's based on ignorance and propaganda in most cases, it's just that that is as true -if not more so- in the States as anywhere else.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:09 PM

This in no way excuses what the USA has done, but, remember, the British government started bullying people in the 16th century!

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:16 PM

Actually, the English were bullying the Scots and Irish a lot earlier than that, but it is still inaccurate to say that the Scot and Irish hate the English, nor would it justify flying a plane into Buckingham Palace.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:18 PM

Bob jr, you have a very good point. Nobody holds a corner on saintliness in the world, and to try to stuff the present situation into the mold of "Good Us" vs. "Evil Them" doesn't help anybody except the people who make the bombs. Sure, the U.S. has a lot to be proud of...and also a lot to be ashamed of. One doesn't negate the other.

There are many moderate Muslims all around the world who don't want to destroy the U.S. It would be a great step towards ending terrorism if we helped those moderates gain a voice and power in their respective countries. Unfortunately, those moderates can't speak out because of repressive fundamentalist governments in those countries. But, uh-oh, those repressive fundamentalist governments happen now to be on our side in our war against Afghanistan. Oops, I mean our war against the Taliban. Oops, I mean our war against terrorism. Oops, I mean our war against Osama Bin Laden. Who might be in Colombia for all we know.

I remember when this bombing started, I was relieved to hear that our goal was to "eliminate the air defenses to make it possible to bring humanitarian aid to the people of Afghanistan." Anybody care to count the number of tons of bombs dropped compared with the number of pounds of food? Proposals to stop the bombing during Ramadan and allow aid teams to enter the country have not been kindly received by our leaders. Sorry, folks, I don't believe anything "our leaders" say any more.

I think that the United States is a wonderful country. I'm grateful to be living here. I'm proud of everything Americans have done and are doing to make the world a better place.

And I also think think that some people in the military and some big corporations and some politicians are trying taking advantage of this situation to try to turn America into a monster, for the sake of their own greed and their own power, against America's heritage of freedom, and against the REAL will of the American people. That's my view, anyway.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:26 PM

Also let us consider the large numbers of refugees who come to the US to get away from people like Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden. Some of them were professional people with good jobs who lost EVERYTHING to come here.

bob jr, are you saying Canada doesn't import any cheap shoes?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:34 PM

as the old saying goes Two wrongs don't make a right.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:36 PM

Canada doesn't support dictators to get cheap shoes or cheap bananas etc. But to be fair, Canada doesn't have too if the US does it.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:43 PM

If they hate America, then they can get the hell out>/I>

Someone in Pakistan who points out that there are people who hate America should get out the hell out of Pakistan? Interesting logic there. Actually it makes sense when you think about it - if you never leave your own country and culture your opinion about the rest of the world is a bit suspect. I seem to comments about Bush Jr to this affect.

In fact there is nothing in itself unfriendly or hostile in asking the question on that poster. Clearly it is an excellent idea for anybody anywhere to understand why it is that they are hated by someone else. And equally clearly there are a lot of people in various parts of the world who would say that they hate America.

If the question had been "Think America why the world loves you" it would have been just as oversimplified - as posters always are - and just as sensible advice.

After all, it's perfectly possible to be loved for your bad qualities and hated for your good ones. Know your enemies. Know your friends. And most of all, Know Yourself, which is supposed to be the beginning of wisdom.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: 53
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 01:56 PM

i'm an american, and i'm glad we're bombing the hell out of the taliban, and i hope that we invoke as much destruction on them as they did on us, i'm tired of the usa layingdown, now the sleeping giant is awake and we are going to kick some major ass. BOB

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:07 PM

I think you mean the English government were bullying the Irish in the 16th century, because Scotland was an free Country at that time and not had nothing to do with 'bullying the Irish'. We in Scotland had our own government at that time. until 1707.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:12 PM

Well the Vikings were bullying all of you way before that.

And my Dutch ancestors tried to bully the whole darn world. Including the English.

We're all friends now.

So just how is Canada able to get Cuban cigars?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:15 PM

Well, Mark, if you consider polls to be credible (major reliable pollsters) you are wrong about the "will of the people." The polls show that the American people overwhelmingly support the administration's management of the war. If the majority did not agree that we should be at war with the terrorists, I doubt they would give such strong support to the president and the military.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: 53
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:17 PM

doug r, you hit the nail on the head. BOB

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:19 PM

The bombing of terrorists will not stop them from doing it, because in Israel they being bombing terrorists since 1967 and maybe even before that and they still have it in that country, and also here in Britain we had terrorists for 30 years, and it still goes on, as I say you can't just go in there an bomb the country thinking that it will stop terroristim in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:33 PM

I was under the impression that the English had made attempts to conquer Scotland going back to the 14th century.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:34 PM

"It seems to me I've heard this song before
It's from an old familiar score
I know it well, that melody",br>

Just to inject some musical content.......I figure a lot of Sammy Cahn stuff will be folk in another 30-40 years........

Sorry for the intrusion...Now go back to flailing those ex-equines.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:40 PM

Surely "kicking some major ass" implies a battle against someone of comparable size and strength? The Taliban regime doesn't measure up to that.

The eminent miltary historian Professor Sir Mucharl Howard recently camed up with a memorable and thought provoking image recently, when he described the bombing of Afghanistan as "trying to eradicate cancer cells with a blow torch".

Here is an article containing what he had to say.

And here is a recent article from The Washington Diplomat which puts Sir Michael into context - he is no pacifist lefty by any means. I think what he says deserves to be pondered very seriously indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 02:46 PM

In 1314 at Bannockburn, Robert the Bruce won and for nearly 300 years Scotand was a free country, and then in 1707 the act of union was past and that meant that the two governments of both Scotland and England were as one. Look up the words to 'Parcel of Rouges' which was written by Robert Burns, the 'Parcel of Rouges' in the song was the Scottish MP'S who sold Scotland freedom for gold. Yes many a Scottish MP took English bribes that day.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 03:13 PM

Did he have a big bruce? Was that pretty well known or what? I mean did people walk up to him and say "How's it hangin' Bob?" Was he much in demand by the ladies?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 03:31 PM

Bruce? You learn something every day here. Not a meaning that seems to have come my way. Is it confined to America?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 04:01 PM

Actually Mac, it's an old Steve Allen joke. No, it's not in common use anywhere really, just to some diehard Steverino fans.

But ya' know.....that's EXACTLY what the joke was about. He once turned to a guest and blurted, "How's your bird?" and bird became a synonym in everybody's mind so he ran with it and said that you could turn any word into a dirty word and suggested "Bruce." So........

How's your Bruce?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 04:03 PM

Synonym for what?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 06:18 PM

Anyone care to tot up how many countries America has bombed since WW2? I'll have a stab at it, if no-one else comes back with the answer.

No wonder the US favours an anarchic world order in which each nation recognises no authority higher than its own. Why throw your weight into building up international values and institutions, if your country is the strongest?

The only problem is that the strongest nation is suddenly looking impotent and vulnerable. Maybe that inclusive approach might have had something to be said for it after all.

Anyway, 53 and co, I suggest you wallow in that B52 carpet bombing while you can, cos who knows, the Taliban might take it the way the Viet Cong did. Or maybe you've managed to expunge the memory of gunships being tipped off a US carrier, to accommodate those who lucky enough to flee the Saigon embassy, while hundreds of America's South Vietnamese allies were shamefully abandoned to the enemy?

Just be sure your water supplies, subway systems, power stations, fresh air, etc, etc, are ALL under armed guard, from now till kingdom come... And even then, it might not be smart to sleep easy at night.

The Pentagon is claiming to have dropped 3,000 bombs so far - from million-dollar missiles that wander off course and hit Red Cross stores, to cluster bombs that will kill children for years to come. All dropped by the richest nation on to one of the poorest - and regardless of the misery it is bringing to people who have good reason to hate the Taliban more than you do, 53.

I'm not sure whether all this comes under the heading of "proportionate," even allowing for the Pentagon's difficulty with truth. (Remember their claims to have shot down four times more Iraqi scuds than Iraqi had in the first place? Turned out they've got no evidence that they ever hit one.) But I don't mean to spoil your happiness, 53. I'm just glad you're no way representative of the Americans I know.

The joke/tragedy is, of course, that this marvellously "proportionate" respose simply won't work. And if it did, you wouldn't know, because no two people who support the whole fiasco can agree on what the aims are.

Meanwhile, the American economy has failed to get the hoped-for soft landing, and looks like crashing to earth with a bang (according to first assessment of end-October figures); and the administration is at last beginning to realise what a colossal target the whole place has become, for all the new enemies it is doing its best to create.

Not sure how this war plays with those like Spaw, who thought the solution might lie in a response just a tad more "surgical" than we're seeing. Maybe it's time they realised that what we are seeing is about as surgical as war gets.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 06:59 PM

Hear, hear, Fionn

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM

Doug, does the fact that the majority of Americans support the bombing make it right? The majority of Americans did not vote for Bush. How do you reconcile that?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:10 PM

The majority of Americans didn't vote. Period.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:20 PM

Anyone remember this thread?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:36 PM

We are unfortunate enough to be in a war, on a war footing, and as usual, the war we are in now does not respond to the lessons we learned the last time we were dumb enough to get into a war.

Getting into a war is, in many ways, a confession of incompetence and mismanagement. Skilled handling of relationships and public relations and diplomacy has failed over and over again.

But being in a war is like being pregnant; you may regret it but there is no turning back gracefully. This was was thrust upon us in a violent and dramatic upgrade, even if we were too stupid to see the formative conditions, the prequelae, shaping up whe they might have been handled by less extreme means. Now it is a death struggle.

It is not just an embarassing negotiation or a diplomatic problem at the present point. And the present point is what has to be handled,

As for "hating the United States" this is a ridiculous, semantically null expression for those who (a) don't what the United States is or means, having never seen mor eof it than one mis-aimed bomb or shell in their living rooms or (b) are using the term misguidedly for personal advantage, the "Let's you and them fight" method of political control.

The WTC was not turned to bloody ashes by demonstrators or by rhetoric, however much they may have initiated the motion. The building was smashed terrorist troops under the mission control of a psychotic desert-rat trying to disguise himself as a religous zealot. This is bullshit, a manipulative cover story with no more substance than last week's sit-com. He is about as religous as a turkey turd, appearances notwithstanding.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Peace Man
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:51 PM

Amos,

It's NOT a war.

Have a look in a dictionary.

This is (or should be) a criminal investigation.

Unfortunuatly the FBI, CIA etc haven't got a clue.

So we carpet bomb Afghanistan, in the knowledge that the known perpetrators of 9/11 came from Eygpt and Syria...

Go figure!

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,A Friend
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 07:54 PM

Well, here is a summary of what the right-leaning centrist journal "World Press Review" published last month, in it's international survey of the world press in the wake of 9/11 (I apologize for length):

From The Guardian, London, England.

"Dismay at U.S. foreign policy, distrust of George Bush's temperament, fear of the hawks, understanding of the Palestinians who cheered at the news, sympathy for other Arabs whose cities have been bombed and children starved, indignation at the huge imbalance in wealth between the Third World and the West. None of this should inhibit our sense of tragedy and outrage.

"The Pentagon had blood on its hands. The World Center was a pillar of mammon. But no one deserved to die in that way…When the dust clears, the scary new order will appear. This is the last week of the world as it was."

From Ideele, Lima, Peru.

"Revenge is not a solution. The problem is that 'them' is so vague. A country? A people? A culture? A religion? A race? A massive attack on the civilian populations of countries that could be protecting terrorists will feed the hate and resentment this phenomenon lives on. It will be an attack on everyday, average folks, like those affected in New York or Washington, who just happened to have been born in a different place in the world….As the people and the leaders of the United States identify Arabs and Muslims as the enemy they need to fight, we are talking about billions of human beings, something like one of every five people on Earth."

From Al-Ahram, Cairo, Egypt.

"Indeed, the United States has managed to turn the love and admiration that peoples around the world once felt for America as a champion of liberty, democracy, and self-determination into universal suspicion and distrust—a transformation that is the result of Washington's misuse of power and abuse of the moral foundations upon which it built its civilization."

From The Daily News, Zimbabwe.

"If the retaliation causes the same massive loss of civilian life that were witnessed on Tuesday, then the world will not have learned anything from the unbridled use of power."

From The Sunday Mail, Harare, Zimbabwe.

"The attacks show that global security does not lie with high tech armaments but with justice and fair play…Talk to them and have a hard look at their grievances. Bombing them to smithereens will not guarantee security because ideas and beliefs can withstand even nuclear blasts, and who knows—the terrorists may soon be attacking with tactical nuclear weapons."

From Elisa Ben-Rafael, Jerusalem, Israel.

"Yes, America, stand tall. Have the courage to be like the people on Flight 93. Do not repeat on a grander scale the mistake that Israelis and Palestinians have made for so many years. Do not act out of hatred of the enemy, but instead out of love for your country."

From Liberation, Paris, France.

"The United States of George W. Bush was the very embodiment of the temptation of isolationism…The United States will have to be involved in the world, and the strong-arm approach of cruise missiles will not suffice. The best defense against terrorism is not war, it is justice."

From the Sunday Star-Times, Auckland, New Zealand.

"Leaders of the free world must examine the historic context of this obscenity. The United States is not blameless in the growth of these shocking terrorist cells, particularly in Afghanistan where they flourished with U.S. money along with the Russian invasion in the late 1970's."

From Mail & Guardian, Johannesburg, South Africa.

"The root problem is that the United States is hated throughout the Arab world and in many other developing countries for the arrogance of its power. As shown by its rejection of the International Criminal Court, refusal to endorse the Kyoto Protocol, and withdrawal from United Nations racism conference. It seeks to impose norms on weaker countries while seeing itself as above international regulation. Both isolationist and controlling, it is ignorant of the world it rules and oblivious to the suffering caused by many of its actions. An example is the 11-year blockade of Iraq, which has left dictator Saddam Hussein unscathed but caused untold misery to ordinary Iraqis, including the deaths of an estimated 500,000 children. Engagement, not military action, will ultimately deliver sustainable peace."

From NIN, Belgrade, Yugoslavia.

"Lacking an interest in the outside world, Americans seem unaware that elsewhere, in another part of the world, American weapons destroy homes and bridges and kill children and other innocent people on behalf of Western values. Americans are sometimes hated not because they support Western values, but for completely prosaic reasons. One such reason is that they direct foreign policy and commit violence against foreign countries and peoples in a very tangible way and for their own interest, not always in the name of higher values. America has reaped a whirlwind, however cruel that sounds."

From Al-Ra'i, Amman, Jordan.

'We need to distinguish between the methods of the American political leadership and their arrogance in their unparalleled domination of the world, and American citizens who have committed no offense and who fell victims to 'Black Tuesday.'"

From Lidove Noviny, Prague. Czech Republic.

"It now appears to be an illusion that it could be possible to isolate America behind a secure wall. The United States is forced to become actively engaged abroad. A real solution to security threats must be directed at their political causes."

From El Pais, Madrid, Spain.

"These signs of international solidarity ought to lead the United States to return to multilateralism and to stop acting, as it has done on too many occasions, as a lone ranger."

From The Canberra Times, Canberra, Australia.

"The U.S. leadership has been waffling for months over the merits of missile defense when it should have been looking at the risks of blowback from its Middle East policy. If the United States pressured Israel to provide some justice to the Palestinians, even Islamic fanatics like Osama bin Laden would come under pressure from other Muslims to modify their actions.

"One thing that will hold America back from finding a just and diplomatic solution to the problem is that the American people are to a large extent kept in the dark about the impact of their foreign policy. The U.S. media and the Bush administration have a responsibility to educate their public about what might be driving Islamic terrorism. That political naivite is characteristic of America, where foreign policy is often dressed up in a fancy ethical guise.

"Americans will support violent retribution, but will they look to the deeper causes?"

From O Estado de Sao Paulo, Sao Paulo, Brazil.

"George W. Bush took office piously believing that the United States is not only the center of the world but the universe's reason for being. In contradistinction to his predecessor, Bill Clinton, Bush has thus far not demonstrated any tact in the art of managing U.S. dominance and its coexistence with the complexities of diverse national realities. The Sept.11 attack exposed the real meaning of the concept of international reciprocity."

From Semana, Bogota, Colombia.

"It was only natural that after a half century of the American government devastating cities around the world—Tokyo, Dresden, Hiroshima, Korean villages, Hanoi, Beirut, Panama City, Tripoli, Kabul, Baghdad, Belgrade—it would be New York and Washington's turn to experience horror. They have spent years sowing rancor through the world; they should not be surprised now by what they are reaping."

From The Philippine Star, Manila, the Philippines.

"The United States must learn to return to prayer and reflection—as a means of linking hands with humankind. The United States must also learn how to share its resources and wealth of talent with other nations and people from all over the globe."

From Vecernji List, Zagreb, Croatia.

"The world of capitalism bows to two gods—money and technology. Everything that cannot adapt, or does not want to adapt, to financial or technological standards faces scorn, poverty, and grief. Terrorists kill people because of cracks in the moral facade. Such moral faults are security gaps as well. Christian civilization can defend itself only by Christian means. Without it, Christian civilization is not what its name implies."

From Le Monde, Paris, France.

"The attacks make one thing clear: Isolationism is never an option for America."

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 01 Nov 01 - 11:39 PM

That the world criticizes us in many voices is right and a freedom to be defended.

But please scrtutinize the list of remarks above for unspecified generalizations, making fine phrases with minimal substance. The "world of capitalism" is not an entity capable of bowing to anything. The statement about "everything that cannot adapt...." is sheer cloud-talk. If the once-world famous reaosning powers of the French have degenerated to this sort of posturing, we have lost an ally without even noticing it! "Security lies with justice and fair play" is a fine high-flown principle but opens no door to the immediate situation.

The effort to reduce the September attack to criminal terms is, in my opinion, misguided. If any recognized government had sent its agents to our chief city with explosive devices of that magnitude, and wiped out 4 to 5 thousand lives in an hour, that government would have been declared hostile under war conditions instantly. Instead an unacknowledged government did it -- carefully over many months of preparation, since they had to borrow the weapons from the victims. To seek to bring such an act to justice while the perpetrators were being sheltered by a government that had no justice, and perhaps several government, would have been naive beyond believe.

It is perfectly true that the Afghan people were not committing an act of war, just as the majority of Japanese knew nothing about Pearl, and the Germans would never have decided to launch blitzkreigs across Austria's lines by popular consent. We are obliged to keep as many of them as possible out of harm's way. And we are obliged to complete the military struggle as fast as we can. But someone launching attacks of this magnitude are not "bad boys", they are declaring war. If that is not obvious, I can't say it any plainer. Lethal menace launched. If anyone expected the military response of the US and the semi-coalition to win popular acclaim, through some bizarre inversion ofhuman nature, they are naive as well. No-one likes wars, not even those fighting them. They are terrifying, harmful, overwhelming experiences.

All the above voices seem to agree that the right management of diplomacy, public relationships, justice and kindness could and would prevent war, and it would be nice to believe that, and it may be true. It is also what I have been yammering about for the last two months, if you care to check. But you can't advertise or administer justice procedures to a rabid animal. anymore than you can teach a pig to sing.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:21 AM

well spoken amos

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:29 AM

I fail to see the corallary, Kendall!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:33 AM

Guest: who cares what the "World Press Review" thinks or prints? It's only an opinion.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Gervase (sans cookie)
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 05:37 AM

Only an opinion?!
Bloody hell, you could say that Osama bin Laden's views are only an opinion, yet they have apparently managed to motivate 19 young men to do what they did on September 11.
It's that "only an opinion", head in the sand sort of talk that gets us to September 11.
Yes, the USA is a powerful nation with many things to which the rest of the world would aspire.
But, as Fionn has said, the USA has also done things that should be condemned (and yes, I'm a Brit, and I know that my own country has done some appalling things in the past - from Amritsar to Derry).
As a result there are many in the world who do hate America and all it stands for. That's a fact that no amount of ordnance can change.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 05:54 AM

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Lanfranc
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:33 AM

I am sure that Lloyds of London and the worldwide insurance market (or at least their lawyers) will be interested in this new definition of "War", if it can be made to stand up in court.

If the atrocities of 11th September can be construed as an "Act of War", it will save the insurance industry billions, as such risks are almost invariably excluded! The cost of compensation and rebuilding will then fall on the US taxpayer, which might change a few attitudes.

If, however, the current situation cannot be defined as "War", the legal position of any country which unilaterally bombs another on the unproven assumption of its complicity in an act of terrorism committed thousands of miles away, without any formal declaration of hostilities, is almost certainly dubious.

The world changed on 11th September, but international law, and the Geneva Conventions didn't. My perception is that the events of that dreadful day were a failure of Intelligence, and most of what has happened since has been an understandable but regrettable failure to consider the full implications and downside possibilities of retaliation. "Turning the other cheek" is not the natural option, but it could be a good idea to give the impression of doing so while a legally and morally defensible solution was devised. I had hoped that the delay that occurred before the bombing started was being used for such consideration, but, alas, it was not.

I'm sorry, but the words of Randy Newman's "Political Science", written way back in the mid 70s, keep running through my mind.

"No one likes us, don't know why. We may not be perfect, but heaven knows we try. All around, even our old friends put us down - Let's drop the big one, and see what happens....."

I don't hate the USA, and don't know many who claim to, most of whom do so out of envy more than spite. However, in foreign policy matters, the judgement of your leaders is often suspect. The US is a big place, with big ideas, high ideals and great people. On balance the rest of the World probably needs the US more than the US needs the rest of the World.

But you do tend to be insular, and, like a man rushing from a darkened room into bright sunlight, when you do foray abroad, it can take you a while to get your vision straight.

I hope that this time that happens soon enough to save us all from the interminable conflict that currently seems inevitable.

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:29 AM

The world did not change on September 11th. The attitudes of most Americans, and many others around the world, towards the idea of the United States' *invincibility* changed.

There is nothing new about acts of terror/war of this magnitude. Many thousands have been killed in an hour of bombing in this era of violence we live in. How many thousands were killed in an instant at Hiroshima and Nagasaki? How about Dresden? How many killed by US bombs around the world since WWII? How many killed by terrrorist bombs around the world since WWII?

Many, many thousands is the answer. They just weren't Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:31 AM

"Probably the US has already made up its mind what to do, and any recommendations by me will be too late. However, military action by itself in the present circumstances is only making things more difficult - especially if this war goes on a long time and many civilians are killed."

That isn't a quote from some liberal pacifist or left pacifist sitting in safety far from the bloodhsed. It comes from an interview with Abdul Haq reprinted in today's Guardian(England). Abdul Haq was the opposition Afghan leader who was executed by the Taliban last week when he was picked up trying to rally opposition to the Taliban in Afghanistan itself. He gave the interview a few days before that. He has surely earned the right to be listened to by anyone who thinks that the present bombing campaign makes some kind of sense.

Here's another quote from his interview:

"But the US is trying to show its muscle, score a victory and scare everyone in the world. They don't care about the suffering of the Afghans or how many people we will lose. And we don't like that. Because Afghans are now being made to suffer for these Arab fanatics, but we all know who brought these Arabs to Afghanistan in the 1980s, armed them and gave them a base. It was the Americans and the CIA. And the Americans who did this all got medals and good careers, while all these years Afghans suffered from these Arabs and their allies. Now, when America is attacked, instead of punishing the Americans who did this, it punishes the Afghans."

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:37 AM

Thanks for those quotes McGraw.

I think it is pretty apparent which Americans on this newsgroup have known the score about American military/capitalist adventurism around the world.

I wonder how many Americans who have travelled outside the US--and I don't mean with the military or a US multinational corporation--have become aware of the "Ugly American" syndrome? People with small, limited "American" viewpoints often seem to have the smallest, most limited worlds.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: TamthebamfraeScotland
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:33 AM

His father was King Robert Bruce and this was just their way of saying Robert bruce Junior.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:42 AM

The pushtoo text posted above, is the Lord's Prayer in the language most spoken by Afghans.

"Forgive those who trespass against us"

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:51 AM

Its a beautiful looking language to me too--like Chinese is.

Thanks other guest.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:00 AM

Fionn does a pretty good job of supporting my point. A lot of people would like to think that Americans are quaking with fear and live in daily dread of having their water supply poisined. That's just not the case. It is another example of the same type of gross generalization in the statement that the world hates America. As far as some of the so-called American atrocities described in various posts, they pretty much helped to stop the world from being ruled by Nazis or Japanese imperialists. They also stoped South Korea from being conquered by North Korea (would any of you like to be living in N. Korea right now) and played a role in winning the Cold War. If you think that the U.S. is as remotely bad as any of these scenarios, then you are even more delusional than I already think. It is simply proof that many critics are much more ignorant and predjudice than they claim Americans to be.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:08 AM

I've done considerable travel, not in the military, and I have seen too many "Ugly Americans". The thing is, most of the Americans who travel, are those who have money, and, too often, that type has no manners,or consideration for anyone but themselves. I have been asked what part of the USA I am from, and when I tell them, they say something like, "You dont act like an American." I take that as a compliment.

Just for the record, I have seen people from other countries being just as boorish as any American. For example, in Jamaica, 5 young men from England, drunk, obnoxious, insisting the bus driver stop so they could get more booze, calling him and other natives "Spooks". So, why do we get the heat? because we are more visible, and much of the world owes its prosperity to us.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:24 AM

Kendall,

Have you ever travelled to countries where there is an oppressive US military presence? Where US foreign policy is propping up brutal dictators and bloody regimes, to protect our "national interests"? *That* is the "Ugly American" syndrome I'm talking about.

As to the World Press Review, DougR--it is a monthly magazine which prints excerpts from major daily papers around the world--it tries to be a barometer of sorts for US foreign policy, and US links to the international communities around the world. In other words, most reasonable people would consider it to be a review of "the opinions that matter"--not just any ole opinion being espoused by American fanatics in Internet discussion forums.

And Amos, Little General, et al you folks who believe more violence, destruction, and killing is the *only* way for Americans to live in this world, all I can say is your minds must be so paralyzed by your fears, that the only solution you can think of as "reasonable" is one which is pushing the entire planet to the brink of world war, nuclear attacks, chemical and biological terrorism as the order of the day, etc etc etc.

It is ONLY a quick fix for your rage. None of what the US is doing right now is going to improve the safety and security of Americans in the US or abroad. Nothing. As many much more wise than any of us have noted since the bombing began, it is exacerbating the situation, and causing negative attitudes towards the US to harden even more.

What kind of world is that to live in? Totally isolated and alienated from the rest of the world--a virtual pariah in the international community. Except among those we can manage to bully and threaten and intimidate into agreeing with us, even if it is only for a few weeks or months. I don't want to live in that kind of world. I would much rather just take the hit, readjust and change the attitudes and values Americans share which put us where we are today--as the most arrogant superpower pariah in the history of the civilized world. THAT may take many years, but at least it would be work in a positive direction--a reaching out to the international community, rather than playing out this sick, twisted, lone ranger scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:26 AM

I think most Americans view anti-American sentiment abroad as "biting the hand that feeds them", whether that opinion has any basis in truth or not.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:39 AM

Guest, no, I have not been in any such country, but, I know they exist, and I strongly dis approve of what my country does.Your observations are right on.Bush is having a "Wargasm" I dont like it, or him. Violence begets violence, and it can only get worse.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:42 AM

Guest,

I could point out that in many cases, the regimes supported by the U.S. are not very pretty, but are often the lesser of two evils compared to their opposition. For example, the Shah was not a very nice guy, but was two decades of rule by fanatics an improvement? However, in way of refuting most of your comments, i will simply make the observation that you would probably have been a big fan of Neville Chamberlain in 1938.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:53 AM

Everybody complains about the war, but nobody does anything about it.

Many of you are quite vocal in your distaste for the current situation. Fine. Do you have any feasible solutions to offer?

Forgiveness is a good thing, yes indeed. I won't argue that. But is there not a point at which you have to say, if I look the other way on this, it's going to happen again, and more people will get hurt?

I don't know what the answer is. Do any of you?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Hank Williams Jr.
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:56 AM

Nice Pushtoo prayer. Here is a nice pissed off redneck prayer: "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil 'cause I'm the meanest son-of-a-bitch in the valley." Sorry folks, but Uncle Sam is whipping up a nice big shit sandwich and a lot of people are going to have to take a bite. If they don't then look for Israel to increase its territory by about tenfold by default.

See you in Kabul, then Damascus, then Tripoli....

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: SDShad
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 09:57 AM

Quick sidebar to the whole "the entire world hates America" bit, which is, at best an exaggeration and at worst a deliberate and knowing lie (not, on the other hand, that there's no one in the world with a legitimate reason to resent us, not by a long shot):

When, exactly, did it become New Left canon to believe and insist that the United States was wrong to fight in World War II? I've seen this trotted out several times in the last two months on Mudcat, but even before that in other online fora, books, articles, etc.

In the years immediately leading into and after the war, you'd be hard pressed to find significant numbers on the American political left who thought that fight was wrong. (Sidebar within a sidebar: yes, I know that there were anti-war people at the time, too, few as they were, and I don't have a problem with that, though I disagree with a great deal of their reasoning. I do have to respect the courage of their convictions, and I think the world would probably be a whole lot better off with a whole lot more ethical, principled pacifists, be they Mennonite, Quaker, Buddhist, or atheist.) For a broad panoply of reasons, pretty much anybody on the American left, from the most milquetoast-liberalish-Hubie-Humphrey centrist to the Reddest of Bolsheviks agreed that this was a good fight, especially the fight against Fascism. Remember the Abraham Lincoln Brigade? Remember that American communists, of whom many who were still foolishly looking to Stalin for inspiration, would have been well aware that in Russia, this was The Great Patriotic War?

I was trying to explain this phenomenon to my mother, from whom--along with my father who is both more liberal and more conservative than her, depending on the issue--I learned many of my liberal/progressive/populist/antiracist principles, bless her heart. Her response was "I didn't know that it had," and she, not having been aware of it before, felt it must just be a tiny minority fringe of the left that feels that way. I tried to explain to her that it might be more widespread on our side of the political spectrum than she was willing to believe, but she wasn't buying. This is a woman who grew up under the shadow of World War II, and has probably been opposed to every war we've been involved in since then. But she supports the current military effort--she hates to see our country killing anyone, but as with Pearl Harbor doesn't see that we have any choice but to respond.

And I agree with her, even though it's with sadness and trepidation, not with rah-rah flagwaving, and even though I grieve for the innocent dead of Afghanistan, just as I would have for the innocent dead of both Germany and Japan, and do grieve for the innocent dead of both Israel and Palestine. But that's not the issue I'm trying to raise with this post, it's the World War II thing. I've always thought our role on the Left was to oppose the wrong, not just to be reflexively anti-American (and it's worth noting that the Trotskyite World Socialist Website calls anti-Americanism "the anti-imperialism of fools"). Silly me.

Shad

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:05 AM

Guest Anonymous,

Your characterization of my position is very unflattering, but also is fortunately completely fictitious. Viokence is a confession of failure in the worst degree. But when violence comes to your doorstep, leaves your people dead, and threatens to overthrow your state, it is naive not to expect humans to engage. The notion that this is a sop to rage is jejeune.

That said, I am completely in agreement that a big muscle display of bombing is probably not the effective strategy. If you read my often confused and upset posts from September, I have said over and over that the organization that launched these attacks need to be rooted out with ground intelligence and made powerless through surgical PR operations, not bunker busters. Special Ops where necessary on known targets. Using Normandy's tactics to address Al Quesadilla is not going to advance the legitimate purposes of the semicoalition. Partly this is occurring because we have transferred our hostility to the Taliban itself, as an extension of the terrorist network it sheltered.

I agree with both of you that violence tends to beget violence, but I do think it is possible that things can get better. War has an end state. It ends when the enemy's frame of mind has become amenable (Klausewitz).

In this case it would end instantly if the Taliban offered to provide all participants of the Quesadilla up to a court of acceptable jurisprudence and provide any intelligence it could about the extent of the network's associations. I am sure there are a small handfull of senior members who could make a meaningful offer along those lines.

Failing that, it will end (at least insofar as Afghanistan is concerned) when the Taliban can't support itself as the governing body and an Afghan coalition of representatives takes over.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:08 AM

Shad,

Good insightful comments. I think that much of it (the criticism of the U.S. in WWII) is simply revisionist history crafted to suit a particular agenda. When people (whether it be a radical third world editorial rant or the self-righteous pontification of some on this board) have to resort to dredging up U.S. military strategy in WWII it indicates that they just don;t have much of a logical leg to stand on.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:32 AM

The causes of ww 2 can be traced to two places. Germany and Japan. At the time of ww1, the Czar of Russia, the Queen of England, and Kaiser Wilhelm were all related. England had the strongest navy in the world, and the Kaiser was jealous. The Czar didn't have a clue what was going on, and it all came to a head in Sarejevo with the murder of Arch Duke Ferdinand. On that side of the pond, it started as a family squabble.I have bigger ships than you do, yah yah yah! Germany was defeated, and humiliated by the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler came along and promised them what they needed to hear. He did not want to go to war with the USA, but, his ally, Japan did, and he had to go along. In the miiddle of the 19th century, we sent envoys to Japan to force them to open their doors to trade. They did not want to come out of their feudal past, but we forced it on them. In the 30's they began to expand because they live on a rock with no natural resources. They invaded China, they occupied many islands in the South Pacific, Korea, Southeast Asia, and we ordered them to pull out! (We had done the same thing in the early 1900's but, thats different. They told us to bugger off, so, FDR froze their assets, and cut off all shipments to Japan. Just as General Mitchell had predicted in 1928? they hit us at Pearl Harbor. Saving face was more important to them than living. As the Irish say, "I'd rather die on my feet than to live on my knees." Do what you will with this, those are the facts.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:34 AM

Amos, as usual you are a voice of reason. I support the right of all those on this forum to argue against our current course of action. And I am not naive enough to think that ths US has never been wrong, or even now to think that everything we are doing is right. But we were attacked on a grand scale, and we must respond. From everything I hear and read, most Americans support our current efforts against al-Qaeda and the Taliban; I certainly do, even though I am very conscious of the dangers inherent in the current situation.

Unfortunately, war is not a surgical procedure. Advancing technology and increased tactical sophistication can make it more so, but only to a point. I believe that the US government is trying very hard to avoid killing innocents, for both moral and strategic reasons. But in wars people get killed, and it would be foolish to think that anyone can eliminate that dynamic entirely. Those who brought this war to our doorstep really have no right to complain about that; the 5,000 plus who were killed on September 11th were innocent, too.

As I have noticed many times, those who criticize the US in this forum for pursuing the present course of action (not for specific tactical decisions, but for the general effort) still have not come up with a suitable alternative. Yes, we should examine our actions and policies worldwide, and be prepared to make adjustments where they are warranted. Yes, we should review our intelligence and security practices, and correct any failings we uncover. But we also have to respond vigorously against those who struck the first blow, bring them to justice (or bring justice to them, as our President said), and do all that we can to prevent a repetition of this. No country attacked in this fashion which had the capability to respond would fail to do so; nor should we.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: SharonA
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:51 AM

Hear, hear, Whistle Stop!

I, also, have yet to hear "a suitable alternative" to "the present course of action". The Taliban knew how the US would respond to its attack and has rehearsed the resultant rhetoric well beforehand. Before anyone blindly repeats it, as the al Qaida and their children are trained to do, please stop and think.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:53 AM

Another fact is that both Japan and Germany represented genocidal regimes. The Japanese probably killed more civilians in the rape of Nanking than the U.S. has in its entire history. Another fact is that Japan and German were the last two nations to truly piss off the U.S. And it has now been over fifty years since they caused any trouble. A good lesson to keep in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:59 AM

WHistle:

Thanks. I think you put your finger on the issue. A sound alternative -- who has one? I have mentioned a number of tactics on the PR front which would make changes in the mind-set of fundy Islam, and I have been told I should hush, am being unrealistic. One was a unified PR campaign recruiting all the Islam women safe (more or less) in Western countries to inundate their sisters with photos and letters of their boys learning to be doctors, their daughters going to college, and their small safe homes with hot water and an SUV. I suspect this would start a ground swell where it matters. Another was to do everything possible to characterize the Quesadillans as a cult, with all the negative implications of that word. There were a few others I've forgotten.

On the military front, our biggest single failure is the abandonment of human intelligence in favor of electronic intelligence. We apparently felt perfectly fine about leaving Afghanistan a hotbed of potential disaster after the Russians left, left no networks of ground intelligence, cultivated no friends. I would bet that the number of Farsi speakers in Arlington today is about 50 times what it was two months ago and is still inadequate.

What we really need is a bomb that is smart enough to locate DNA in the world!! Then all we would need is some of bin L's toenails and we could work a major voodoo on that boy. (Kidding....)

Seriously, I feel that anyone who wishes to unleash carping generalized criticism would be honor bound to sugest alternative approaches.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:16 AM

Thanks, Whistle Stop.

What I fail to understand is why the Taliban places the life of Osama bin Laden over the lives of the entire population of Afghanistan. Is it just money? What is it? He's just a man. A Man, that's all.

I would be All For having him tried in a court of law. But they didn't want to do that. They had three weeks to talk and they didn't want to talk.

There was a famous Civil War general who used say to his opponents, here are my terms. You can surrender to my terms and be treated like gentlemen, or die. Those who didn't accept his terms found out the hard way that he wasn't foolin around. He didn't say, brother, let's sit down and hold hands and talk about why we're doing this. No. Accept the terms, or face the consequences.

In the words of another famous CW general, War is hell, boys.

Now. That being said... my personal quandary in all of this is... I don't hate anybody. I have never hated anyone in my whole entire life. Dislike? Sure. I try to stay away from people I don't like, and when I can't, I try to be polite. Once in awhile, I make a new friend. But I have never hated anyone, or wished pain upon anyone. It is simply something I Do Not Comprehend. It Does Not Register on my radar screen.

The other thing is, I believe in the balance of the universe. If there is going to be peace, there also has to be war. If there is going to be love, there also has to be hate. This is even in the Bible, y'all, and wasn't it Pete Seeger who wrote a song about it? So while I understand that all these things must happen, I have a hard time balancing them within myself, if that makes any sense. There needs to be an action on our part but I feel for the Afghan people. What do they call that? Cognitive dissonance?

I don't know I don't know I don't know

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: robomatic
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:25 AM

Hey guys.

We Americans beat on ourselves a lot harder than the rest of the world put together. It's one of our greatest strengths and our last saving grace.

We sure have done some bad things in the past. We supported some nasty people in S. America. We didn't understand Vietnam's drive for independence against the French and by the time we had half a clue we were embroiled in a nasty sidebar of the Cold War over there. But in fact we were busy countering the Soviet threat to the World all through the 40's, 50's, 60's, and 70's. A lot of these smaller incidents of American bombing around the world were related to dealing with the evil empire. And it WAS an evil empire.

Now we are engaged on a different related task. An attempt at creating an evil empire by hijacking a world religion. It is a noble attempt, and may succeed.

Think how brutal the rise of Christianity was over the ages. Crusades, ghettoizations, the 100 years war, the 30 years war, the holocaust. Christianity has been a decent religion for about 40 years now, give or take. Islam is 600 years its junior and never had an enlightenment to call its own.

The original poster and the immediate following messages took note of the fact that the world doesn't hate America. America itself is a composition of the world such as no other country has (with the possible exception of Israel). I guess the world could be allowed to hate itself, but only as a passing reality to a more mature realization that no one religion, race, creed, or culture has all the answers.

Have faith. We will eventually learn to live in peace with others after we have exhausted all other options.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: PeteBoom
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:31 AM

Right - Kim is quoting, well, paraphrasing, American generals. For all those opposed to American ideas, here's one from a British general:

The only thing more terrible to behold than a battlefield of a victory is a battlefield of a defeat.

Most folks like to point out that Yanks don't have a clue about the world. Many of them raise valid examples. I would also suggest that most people of the world don't have a clue about Yanks.

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not your enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle... Sun Tzu

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:50 AM

One comment. Yes America (Meaning the UNited States as there are several other nations that comprise the American hemisphere0 has done some pretty despicable thing but and it is a major one that no-one has mentioned, we do try to make amends. Such as: rebuilding the nations we fight against IE Germany, Japan, Korea, we go out of our way to feed and cloth those in need after disasters and providing a refuge for the oppressed of the world. By the way, KimC, Canada gets those Cuban cigars because they don't have anal trade relations with Cuba. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:05 PM

I invite anyone to make a list of the major positive actons and the major harmful actions we have undertaken as a nation and see which side grows longer. Don't leave out Mickey Mouse, either -- in providing him and Minnie to the word the United States has offered the first completely gender-equal but asexual religion. Steamboat Willie is his prophet. Tooot!! Toot!! Let's tally up the dollars earned by sweat and ingenuity, siphoned into our tax stream and shiped out to those who could not or would not build their own lives. Let's not overlook such things as assembly lines, replaceable parts, the transistor and all its children, and better standards of plumbing. Let's include American wheat and the Berlin airlift. And let me add that the efforts we made, however misguided in result, to help the Afghans defend themselves against colonization by the USSR, were not without merit. They were perhaps badly executed and unintelligently managed. But nowhere near as unintelligently as the USSR's politics and economics.

Anyway I am really tired of this thread with its meaningless panic-mongering title. The emotional condition of those who gallop off in all directions crying fearful generalizations without specifics and without remedy is, to my mind, not one to try a discussion with.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:20 PM

All hail Steamboat Willie!!!!

I also forgot to mention, that first general, is also credited with saying, War means fightin, and fightin means killin.

One other question I have - when bin Laden says, Kill Americans, is he including the large Muslim population in this country? I'm just curious. They came here to get away from goombahs like him.

All right. I'm going to go play Secret Santa now. Hohoho. (toot!)

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,***.Francis.Be.Ardisson.*** (14, Germany)
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:51 PM

I must say, that I don't like the USA too. But *I* don't like their political point and their imperialism. capitalism will destroy us. But it's not okay to say that it's the whole world's opinion. And it's not okay to do what "they" have done. That's my point, but, perhaps, it's jjust because I love Che Guevara...

:-)

yours,

Francis.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Grab
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 12:56 PM

IMHO, the world mostly wishes that America would "act its age". That the US government and a number of its citizens saw no hypocrisy in supporting supporting terrorists and oppressive regimes (Israel, Afghanistan, Iraq, the IRA, etc) whilst criticising, blockading or invading other countries (the US embargo on Cuba is so childish, it's almost funny), meant that the rest of the world has often seen America simply as the biggest bully in the playground. Might does not make it right.

George Bush said explicitly that his quarrel was not with the ordinary ppl of Afghanistan, but with al-Qaeda and its allies (ie. the Taleban). This is followed by carpet-bombing, which is by its nature indiscriminate and guaranteed to kill civilians. Arguments such as "the Taleban brought it on themselves" do not hold water - if the US wants to be the global policeman then it must itself behave ethically, and there's nothing ethical about carpet-bombing. Imagine if the UK had sorted the IRA by napalming all Republican areas of Northern Ireland after the bombings in Brighton or Manchester...

As a comment to "the little general", remember that Saddam Hussein and the Afghan Mujahaddein (sp?) were both backed by extensive US money, arms and training. Those were enormous successes, weren't they? Ditto, Israel's got serious US backing, and it's using tanks and airplanes against civilians armed with stones and rifles. The US just _loves_ Saudi Arabia, a country busily enforcing inhuman conditions on immigrants and women. And where the US has tried to prop up a morally-bankrupt regime, it's not done too much better - if the US _hadn't_ backed the Shah's regime, it wouldn't have had its embassy burned, its citizens tortured and killed, etc. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" has been comprehensively proven to be total crap.

Graham.

PS. Note that all comments above refer to "America" the political entity, not "America" as any individual citizens. I know many Americans are opposed to their government's actions, and I respect them for that.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:01 PM

Germany isn't a capitalistic society?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:05 PM

Hey, lets all dump on Dewey Bunnell?

We could take this idiocy to the highest illogical level; i.e. the horse with no name.

That oughta kickitupanotch.

Ohhhhh pop culture . . . you just gotta love it.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,colwyn dane
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 01:14 PM

The following originally appeared in the 'New York Times' and was reprinted in the 'Sydney Morning Herald' last week.

By Thomas Friedman
So let me see if I've got this all straight now: Pakistan will allow us Americans to use its
bases on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays - provided we bomb only Taliban whose
names begin with Omar and who don't have cousins in the Pakistani secret service.

India is with us on Tuesdays and Fridays, provided it can shell Pakistani forces around
Kashmir all other days. Egypt is with us on Sundays, provided we don't tell anyone and
provided we never mention that we give the Egyptians $2 billion a year in aid. Yasser
Arafat is with us only after 10pm on weekdays, when Palestinians who have been
dancing in the streets over the World Trade Centre attack have gone to bed. The Northern
Alliance is with us, provided we buy all its troops new sandals and give US passports to
the first 1,000 to reach Kabul.

Israel is with us provided we never question the lunacy of 7,000 Israeli colonial settlers
living in the middle of a million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip.

The Saudis, of course, want to be with us, but Saudis are not into war-fighting. That's for
the household help. The Saudi ruling family would love to co-operate by handing over its
police files on the 15 Saudis involved in the hijackings, but that would be a violation of
their sovereignty, and, well, you know how much the Saudis respect sovereignty - like
when their embassy in Washington rushed Osama bin Laden's relatives out of America
after September11 on a private Saudi jet, before they could be properly questioned by the
FBI.

And then there's my personal favourite: all our Arab-Muslim allies would love us to get
bin Laden quickly, but Ramadan is coming soon and the Muslim "street" will not tolerate
fighting during the holy month. Say, do you remember the 1973 Middle East war,
launched by Egypt and Syria against Israel? Remember what that war was called in the
Arab world? "The Ramadan War" - because that's when it was started. Oh, well. I guess
the Arab world can launch wars during Ramadan, but not receive them.

My fellow Americans, I hate to say this, but except for the good old Brits, we're all alone.
And at the end of the day, it's US and British troops who will have to go in, on the
ground, and eliminate bin Laden.

Unfortunately, killing up to 5,000 Americans in New York just doesn't get the rest of the
world that exercised. In part we're to blame. The unilateralist message the Bush team sent
from its first day in office - get rid of the Kyoto climate treaty, forget the biological
treaty, forget arms control, and if the world doesn't like it that's tough - has come back to
haunt us.

My advice: focus instead on the firemen who rushed into the trade centre towers without
asking, "How much?" Focus on the thousands of US reservists who have left their jobs
and families to go fight in Afghanistan without asking, "What's in it for me?" Unlike the
free-riders in our coalition, these young Americans know that September11 is our holy
day - the first day in a just war to preserve our free, multi-religious, democratic society.

And I don't really care if that war coincides with Ramadan, Christmas, Hanukkah or the
Buddha's birthday - the most respectful and spiritual thing we can do now is fight it until
justice is done.

The New York Times




bcnu, CD.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 02:08 PM

Grab,

It has already been pointed out that the U.S. has backed many regimes who were not angels, however, they often represented the lesser of two evils. Evidently in your world, the ideal alternative to the Shah was rule by religious fanatics. Its just like the people who say that Desert Storm was merely support of a repressive Kuwaiti government. Well gosh, I guess it would have been so much better to let Saddam take charge. The last time that I checked, the Kuwait government wasn't gassing and starving its own people. Following your logic, we are brutes for supporting a South Korean government that is not the most democratic, so maybe we should just let the North Koreans run the show. Rice and water three meals a day anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Francis
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:00 PM

Yes, Germany is capitalistic, I think. But the USA are the symbol. UNCLE SAM DOES THE BEST HE CAN; YOU'RE IN THE ARMY NOW!!!

what do you think about *rage against the machine*?

.F.B.A.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:12 PM

I have just started reading Mudcat. because I am interested in the music threads, and I tend to shy away from political threads on the theory that people only post to them, they don't really read them, but I can't help myself here, so please forgive me.

First thing is that terrorist acts are always futile gestures. Terrorists go for symbolic targets, because they have no hope of making tangible gains, and when their attacks are successful, it always unites their adversary, which makes them even stronger than before the attacks.

Second is that the American economy is stronger today than it has ever been, even the Communists like the benefits of a capitalist economy. Over the last fifty years, many large and powerful forces have tried to undercut it, to surpass it, to "bury it", and one by one, they've had to toss in their cards. Angry marchers, angry editorials, and even suicide bombers are just bugs on the windshield--

Third, because America is the strongest militarily and economically, the rest of the world pays more attention to America than America pays to the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:13 PM

Well Francis, if that's what rings your bell, why not?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 03:21 PM

It sure seems like many of us want to START with the towers being destroyed. Thats not where it started folks.

The very first country to declare war on the USA was Tripoli, an Arab nation. A local boy, Commodore Preble, and Captain Steven DeCatur went over there with a couple of ships and pounded hell out of them. They quit.

Now, if we could get them all to gather in one place again...

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 04:06 PM

So the countries that most pissed of America were Japan and Germany, says Little Sergeant - managing again to forget Vietnam, even after my gentle reminder. Looks like a serious case of selective memory.

Amos said: "it would end instantly if the Taliban offered to provide all participants of the Quesadilla up to a court of acceptable jurisprudence." Acceptable to who? Maybe Amos will agree with me on this at least: the world is crying out for an international court. some 60 countries have signed up to one so far, including the UK. But not America.

"SOMETHING had to be done," is the hand-wringing, spluttering, refrain from Kim C and several others - all the justification they need, for carpet-bombing the very people the US should be working with to bring Afghanistan into the community of nations.

Well to the John Waynes who lack the imagination to think of anything but brute force, I would suggest that building up intelligence, improving security wherever practical, and forging constructive alliances in Afghanistan with more than the murderous gangsters of the Northern Alliance would all be good moves. (Had the US gone in with serious food aid rather than packets of strawberry jam cynically strewn among the bombs, this would have been a realistic option.)

Creating the conditions for Afghan democracy might take a while, but then there are those who boast that the "war" will take a while - a lifetime, according to some. Would it not have made sense to build up a consensus coalition in Afghanistan, ready to fill the vacuum, before starting to take out the Taliban?

And what price the mindless dash for vengeance? Not least, it has meant befriending, all over again, that rogue state and known nuclear power, Pakistan - a state which is totally hostile to America's only other ally in the region, the Northern Alliance. Would it be equally OK to team up with North Korea, if that helped score points against bin Laden?

Yet anyone who questions the slaughter, and the turmoil that is now being stirred up, will be accused by DougR of not having lost a loved one in the WTC - as though the WTC is the only atrocity on the world's conscience. Maybe if DougR had lost a loved one among the 5,000 children who die every day for want of clean water supplies, he'd see the WTC atrocity in better perspective. I'd ask him to think seriously about that for a minute.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 04:25 PM

Fionn:

Sure, I agree with you. But I think it ought to be stressed that acts of wanton violence laid on a foreign land resulting in mass murder are different in qualityy and nature from the deaths of children for want of clean water supplies. America did not provide the water supplies of Uganda. The fact that we have managed with a lot of sweat to more or less manage our own does not make us the perpetrators of that offense.

To a certain degree it is in incumbent on local residents of an area to improve it to make life better, or at least sustainable. If they don't get organized enough to do that, they can walk over the mountains or suffer where they are. I don't see how expecting the US to fix the planet on all fronts is a solution.

If the "war" takes a lifetime it will not be the war in Afghanistan; it will be the "war against terrorism". Slavery, as has been pointed out, took a century to eradicate in the west. If terrorism as a practice is to be eradicated, much as piracy once almost was, it will take decades of extended program, not just a pissant bombing campaign.

A

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:07 PM

So Fionn, what happened to the millions of dollars the US gave Afghanistan last year before this ever happened? Was it appropriated by the Taliban and not used for "serious food aid"? Where did it go?

I already said a million times I don't know what the solution is. It's impossible to please everyone. If we fight, we piss people off. If we don't fight, we piss people off. Some of us piss people off just by being Americans.

Should we have waited longer to act, and given them the time they needed to pull another deadly stunt?

Whatever. I'm going home for the weekend.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Ken Nielsen
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 06:56 PM

Disgruntled Middle Easterners call Americans arrogant - talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Their type of behavior is out of the dark ages. We need to strike and strike hard. After the most hideous attack in the history of civilization, Sept 11th, no one is going to deny us our revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:18 PM

Ken,

People all over the world:

1) Don't agree that Middle Easterners' behavior is out of the dark ages;

2) That Sept 11 is the most hideous attack in the history of civilization;

3) That bombing Afghanistan for revenge is acceptable on any level.

But I do understand that most Americans, who are quite myopic in this regard, share your sentiments and sadly lack the values shared by most other people in the world who oppose what we have chosen to do in response to the cowardly attacks on Sept 11th.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:21 PM

Fion,

I am not sure what your point is--that no response by the US is appropriate other than your constructive points? You have some good points, it's true, but they don't really address the problem at hand--not that anything else does--

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: GUEST,the little general
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 07:33 PM

Fionn is off-base yet again. The Vietnam conflict was what it was largely because the U.S. was not pissed off. The fact that the military's hands were tied by rules of engagement that would make any military stategist cringe, and it recieved lukewarm support from politicians and the people makes for a whole different story. On a positive note, there is no denying that it was just one battle of the Cold War. The last time that I checked, we won the Cold War. Now, Fionn, go back and check our record against every nation against whom we have declared all out war or where there has been a 90 percent approval rating for military force.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 08:56 PM

Bleh. I've never been a big USA fan, myself. I'm just to poor to move away. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 10:28 PM

Any way you cut it, we are in a hell of a mess.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 02 Nov 01 - 11:14 PM

For those of you who seem to think that we are not justified in our response. I am no war monger how ever let's do a little tally. The US, which is evil according to some of you and should sit idly by while our homeland is attacked, has chosen not to do so. The good book says he who is with out sin casts the first stone. Whole lot of righteous people out there. On with the tally. Vietnam-We shouldn't have been there, see above. How about them going in to Cambodia and then getting their butts handed to them from China over a border dispute with them? Germany- Beautiful land wonderful people. I believe the justification for the series of bloodless annexations that led up to the second world war and the attck on Poland were justified by the persecution of Germanic minorities in Austria,Czeckoslovakia, the Saar. I won't get into the spasmodic vomit fest that resulted in World War one or the fact that Prussia goaded France in to a war that Prussia knoew that couldn't win in 1870 after having done the same to Austria Hungary a decade earlier or so. Afghanastan- We could have not armed the mujhadin and kept out of it and maybe we should have. Of course there is the small problem of a People's Republic... My point is No-one is immune from good or evil but I'd stack our record with anyone elses. We should act our age? Our age is 225 year old as nations go, sportsfans, that's still juvenile. This thread has become nothing but a bash fest and i will no longer participate in that. Good night and kindest regards to all. Neil

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: kendall
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 07:06 AM

Seems to me that it has all been said, so, I'm out of here. The thread is too long anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: sledge
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 08:00 AM

Well This particular foreign chap has no hatred for the US, I am looking forward to travelling over in 2 weeks time and being there to help celebrate Thanks giving, which will procbably be felt tohave more meaning this year than for quite a while.

Cheers

Sledge

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 08:27 AM

"Something had to be done" is the way that people doing terrible things always justify them. And the other thing they do is to point at the people they are against, saying "Look at them, don't look at me."

That's true whether they are terrorists in a cave or generals or politicians in offices or press conferences.

Another point though. People are focusing on whether the bombing of Afghanistan is just it is unjust and so forth. That matters of course, and things like using terrorist weaons like fragmentation bombs matter.

But there's another way of talking about right and wrong that isn't primarily about morality, it's about effectiveness. And it seems to me that many people, on bity sides in this argument, appear to be ignoring whether the bombing is a mistake or not.

There's a quote that fits here. It was a comment made at the time when Napoleon executed one of his opponents (the Duc D'Enghien as it happened)- "It is worse than a crime, it is a blunder.

And the two people I gave links to earlier, Sir Michael Howard, a well respected military historian, and Abdul Haq the recently executed enemy of the Taliban, both think that it is a bad mistake, and is going to make things far worse. They deserve to be read by anyone who thinks that the bombing is likely to achieve its objectives.

I suppose I could have posted the articles directly in this thread, but I assume that anyone who is seriously interested in these issues will be up to pushing the blue clicky. (And the Guardian archives are kept available longterm, unlike some other publications.)

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: DougR
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 01:43 PM

I agree, Kendall. Me too.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: heric
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 03:08 PM

I have been away for several days, and just had the pleasure of reading this thread in one lump. For all the nonsense of a general rah-rah post, I would still like to mention briefly that I think it is wonderful to have this interactive reading resource, even if it is on the backs of the pure music devotees. You BS'rs on both sides of the peace/war equation (however you want it described) have given me a lot to think through in a way that is quite different from plowing through news and editorial sites, or dedicated political discussion sites. (Note also how the invective is almost absent in this thread.) I suppose there is something about the self-selection process that brings people to this site that has this beneficial side effect.

Thanks

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 09:05 PM

Okay, students, here's a test for your final grade in "Logical Thinking 101".

Examine the following propositions and determine whether they are logically consistent or not; if you argue they are not, identify the illogical issues or fallacies implied.

 1.  Americans do not have a clue about the world.
 2. The world is made up of the nations of the world.
 3. America is the strongest nation in the world.
 4. America is the richest nation in the world.
 5. America is not the most populous nation in the world.

Extra points will be given for brilliance.

Professor A.

Subject: RE: BS: America: the World hates you
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 09:12 PM

This thread is CONTINUED HERE.

Do not add to this section but click on the above link to make additional posts.

Thanks,

A.