Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...

Subject: What is the definition of the word emanita?
From: Paul R. Jay
Date: 17 Feb 98 - 09:21 PM

The song "Wildwood Flower" has a line in it that has the word emanita in it. I have also seen it with the word aronatus. Can anybody give me the definition of these words. I think they are some kind of flower. "The myrtle so bright with an emerald hue And the pale aronatus with eyes of bright blue."

Subject: RE:
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Feb 98 - 09:29 PM

this comes up regularly...if you know how to search the forum, you can read LONG discussions of it...(the newsgroup rec.music.folk also has had long threads on it..)..the short answer is that no one 'really' knows....(it probably originated with the pronunciation problems of the long-gone author)...botanists have signed on and discussed 'possible' flowers, etc...I guess you just find the version you like best and sing that!

Subject: RE:
From: Humdinger Folksinger
Date: 24 Feb 98 - 09:24 PM

You're doing better than I! For about 30 years, until just recently, I thought the line was "The pale and the leader and eyes looked so blue." I actually saw the "written words" in the "Rise-Up Singing Songbook"; I learned them "by ear." Good luck!

Subject: RE:
From: Gene
Date: 24 Feb 98 - 09:37 PM

Well, there was a version with those VERY LINES.

The pale and the leader and eyes looked like blue...

Probably because no one could figure out what the others meant....

Subject: RE:
From: Bob Landry
Date: 25 Feb 98 - 06:33 PM

The first version I saw had the word "lyder", instead of "leader". The word doesn't appear in my Collins English Dictionary. Another mispronunciation, perhaps?

Subject: RE:
From: leprechaun
Date: 28 Feb 98 - 03:33 PM

Amanita is a genus of mushroom, some of which are poisonous, some of which are deadly and some of which are considered hallucinogenic.

Subject: RE:
From: dulcimer
Date: 28 Feb 98 - 07:29 PM

If you want to sing it as the Carter's did it in 1927,you'll use the lyrics Gene gave. Maybelle herself gives different lyrics in the 50's. So it probably doesn't matter what really are the lyrics or trying to find some "orginal" "first" lyrics. I would suggest that any version you find is just one that someone heard. The version the Carters did probably came from the palor song of 1859 I'll Twine Midst the Ringlets by J. Webster. Another possible source of the Carter tune was The Pale Amaryliis. They themselves couldn't give the exact meaning of the phrase. So if you are looking for the meaning emanita or aronatus, you may looking for some flower or whatever that someone only guessing at when he/she sung and wrote down.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE MAN WHO PICKED THE WILDWOOD FLOWER
From: NEWFOUNDLANDER
Date: 01 Mar 98 - 10:06 AM

This is a version that my Late Uncle used to sing. I don't know where he got it from, but he used to sing it to the tune of The Wildwood Flower.

THE MAN WHO PICKED THE WILDWOOD FLOWER

I only saw five people when they buried Jack Dupree
Two diggers and a preacher the funeral man and me
The prayer was said and the hole was filled in less than half an hour
We said good-bye to the little man who picked the wildwood flower

For twenty years I’d seen him on the lower Nashville streets
They said he always earned enough to buy his cloths and eat
He'd stop awhile and check his watch with the big clock on the tower
That's when i asked him once if he could pick the wildwood flower

He always drew a crowd because he put on such a show
He'd dance and sing and play and smile just like a college pro
And every time he saw me standing in the crowd
I knew the tune that he'd play next would be the wildwood flower

I told him once that he could be what people called a star
And he said why boy I’m happy. None of them folks are
I'd hate to have to force a smile and feel myself turn sour
There ain't no put on in my face when i pick the wildwood flower

Then I saw a thousand people as they began to come
Businessmen, opera stars, party girls and bums
And on that little mound of clay bouqueted with endless showers
They paid respect to the little man who picked the wildwood flower
^^

Subject: RE:
From:
Date: 02 Mar 98 - 12:20 AM

Nobody has ever figured out what "mingles" are either. In the Carter Family version they say "I will twine with my mingles....." My record jacket (Rounder's Complete Victor Recordings) says mispronunciations did get into songs and then people sang them by ear and perpertuated them.

Murray

Subject: RE:
From: Jon W.
Date: 02 Mar 98 - 12:22 PM

I always thought it was "I will twine 'mid the ringlets of waving black hair..."

Subject: RE:
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Mar 98 - 12:57 PM

heard 'em all....always thought "I will twine and Ill mingle my waving black hair, with the roses...etc..." made more sense...

Subject: RE:
From:
Date: 02 Mar 98 - 06:32 PM

One of those two versions was probably what it was supposed to be, They both make sense and fit in with the rest of the song.

If I had one of those old fashioned reel-to-reel tape recorders, I would slow it down and listen to see if I really hear "mingles". The guy who wrote the jacket notes for my cassette seems to have heard it too.

Murray

Subject: RE:
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 02 Mar 98 - 07:07 PM

I have seen words somewhere that made sense of it all, but now I have forgotten where I saw them. I have played with several professional bluegrass bands; each one had a version of this frequently-requested song, and each version was different from the others. I never had to worry about it, since I don't sing it--outta my range.

Subject: Lyr Add: WILDWOOD FLOWER ^^
From: NEWFOUNDLANDER
Date: 02 Mar 98 - 08:34 PM

Here's another version I just dug out of my songbook.

WILDWOOD FLOWER 107

I will twine and will mingle my waving black hair
With the roses so red and the lilies so fair
The myrtle so green of an emerald hue
The pale emanita and violets of blue

Oh he promised to love me, he promised to love
To cherish me always all others above
I woke from my dream and my idol was clay
My passion for loving had vanished away

Oh he taught me to love him, he called me his flower
A blossom to cheer him through life's weary hour
But now he has gone and left him alone
The wild flowers to weep and the wild birds to moan

I'll dance and I'll sing and my life shall be gay
I'll charm every heart in the crowd I survey
Though my heart now is breaking, he shall never know
How his name makes me tremble, my pale cheeks to glow

I'll dance and I'll sing and my life shall be gay
I'll banish this weeping, drive troubles away
I'll live yet to see him, regret this dark hour
When he won and neglected his frail wildwood flower

^^

Subject: RE:
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 02 Mar 98 - 11:19 PM

The presumably original version is "I'll Twine 'mid the Ringlets", which dulcimer mentioned, and in the DT it starts like this:

I'll twine 'mid the ringlets of my raven black hair
Rhe lilies so pale and the roses so fair
The myrtle so bright with an emeral hue
And the pale aronatus with eyes of bright blue.

I left in the typos because they make we (I mean Me) wonder whether "aronatus" is a typo. But if it isn't, and you want to know what the lyricist meant, that's the word to research. I'm not saying for a minute that it's the word you should sing.

(Incidentally, one songbook I learned this from has "armita"--you sing "pale" on two notes--and another gives the fourth line as "Said I, knowing not that my love was untrue".)

Subject: RE:
From: Bill in Alabama
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 06:41 AM

Thanks to NEWFOUNDLANDER's jogging my memory with the violets line, I remembered the flower name which the old folks used in my neck of the woods when I was learning my music: "And the pale Amaranthus with violets of blue." Amaranthus (sometimes called Pigweed by less romantic folks) is a fairly common wildflower, but it is also a name given to a mythical flower which was supposed never to fade. Tennyson refers to it in one of his poems, I believe.

Subject: RE:
From: Jon W.
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 10:59 AM

Does amaranthus have any bright blue eye-like spots?

Subject: RE:
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 03 Mar 98 - 01:45 PM

I don't think so. Amaranth (as it's more often called in English by those who don't want to say "pigweed") has spikes of tiny flowers that are usually reddish or greenish. The kind most commonly grown in gardens is called "love lies bleeding".

Subject: Lyr Add: WILDWOOD FLOWER^^^
From: CarterNut
Date: 22 Jul 98 - 11:26 AM

Here are the exact words to this song that Mother Maybelle Carter sang. She stated that they came from her grandmother and that she had always known the song.

Wildwood Flower
As sung by Mother Maybelle Carter

Oh, I'll twine with my mingles of waving black hair,
With the roses so red and the lilies so fair;
And the myrtle so bright with the emerald dew,
The pale and the leader and eyes look like blue.

Oh, I'll dance, I will sing and my laugh shall be gay,
I will charm every heart in his crown I will sway;
When I woke from my dreaming my idols were clay,
All portions of love had all flown away.

Oh, he taught me to love him and promised to love,
And to cherish me over all others above;
How my heart is now wondering no misery can tell,
He's left me no warning nor words of farewell.

Oh, he taught me to love him and called me his flower,
That was blooming to cheer him through life's dreary hour.
Oh I long to see him and regret the dark hour,
He's gone and neglected this pale wildwood flower.

This is the one above all versions, although I am biased toward Maybelle. I consider her the "Rock" of my musical interests and influencing. A "mingle" as far as I can tell is maybe a twist or tangle in her. "Pale and the leader" is perhaps some flower whose name has become jumbled through oral tradition. Note the reference to "myrtle" in the line before. We can gather that she is going to play with her hair among the flowers, twining some within her hair. John.

^^^

Subject: RE:
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Jul 98 - 12:14 PM

'Pale and a leader' = 'Pale oleander'?
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE:
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Jul 98 - 07:49 PM

I will swine with my piglets.... Bob Pfeffer's version as I recall.

Subject: RE:
From: DrWord
Date: 24 Jul 98 - 10:39 PM

Just a thought ... it doesn't help with the botany, but Homer & Jethro used to take this song off:

Oh my flower of the wildwood was skinny and tall 'Cept for her adam's apple, she had no shape at all I can still see her there, sittin' under the trees Tying knots in her stockings, so's it look like she had knees ...

&c &c. Dennis

Subject: RE:
From: BSEEDKRATZ
Date: 25 Jul 98 - 07:23 PM

amanita is not only the name of a mushroom, it is also the name of a flower--and, yes, the woman is talking of twining flowers in her hair, throughout the song:

I will twine and will mingle my raven black hair
With the roses so red and the lilies so fair,
The myrtle so green of an emerald hue,
The pale amanita and islip (?) so blue.

Subject: Lyr Add: WILDWOOD FLOWER^^^
From:
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 01:25 AM

Here is another version of "Wildwood Flower":

I will twine and will mingle my waving black hair
With the roses so red and the lily so fair,
The myrtle so green of an emerald hue
The pale emanita and eyes look like blue.

Oh, he promised to love me, he promised to love,
To cherish me always, all others above.
I woke from my dream and my idol was clay.
My passion for loving had vanished away.

Oh, he taught me to love him, he called me his flower,
A blossom to cheer him through life's weary hour.
But now he has gone and left me alone,
The wildflowers to weep, and the wild birds to moan.

I'll dance and I'll sing, and my life shall be gay.
I'll charm every heart in the crowd I survey.
Though my heart is now breaking, he never shall know
How his name makes me tremble, my pale cheeks to glow.

I'll dance and I'll sing, and my heart will be gay.
I'll banish this weeping, drive troublews away;
I'll live yet to see him, regret this dark hour
When he won and neglected this frail wildwood flower.

-- This is from: Irwin and Fred Silber, Compilers, Folksinger's Wordbook (New York: Oak Publications, 1973), p. 166.


^^^

Subject: wildwood flower
From: Pete Peterson
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 09:30 AM

I can still remember hippie friends in the late sixties (appropriately) trying to convince the world that the "pale aminita" is a hallucinogenic mushroom & that the Carter Family was all stoned. . . thinking more deeply, it was at a Holy Modal Rounders concert that Pete Stampfel put forth this theory. I've ALWAYS sung "pale aminita"; childhood habits are the hardest to break Pete

Subject: RE:
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 09:35 AM

YOU had hippy friends???? harpology

Subject: RE:
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 01:25 PM

Harpgirl, you seemed so shocked, I more bet that there are many here that if old enough were hippys (selk included) & them that were to old , there's a good shot of them being beatnecks. Barry whoses still aging with a young heart.

Subject: RE:
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 01:26 PM

Hum, that's "I bet more". Barry

Subject: RE:
From: harpgirl
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 10:15 PM

Barry,
I'm pulling Pete's leg, sweetie....He and I know each other slightly...harpy

Subject: RE:
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Nov 98 - 11:09 PM

See that, aging more quickly than I realized. Barry

Subject: RE:
From: GUEST,A girl and a guitar
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 03:06 AM

Maybe the reason why this song is so popular is because everyone can make up their own words to it.

Subject: RE: wildwood flower
From: GUEST,michael batory
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:54 AM

try www.citynet.net/putnam/parents/wildflr.html where there are a few lines of explanation plus a version from Folksingers wordbook 1973.

from here here is also a link to a fine illustration of Amaranthus pumilus.

michael

Subject: RE:
From: kendall
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 08:54 AM

the words that make the most sense to me are: I will twine and will mingle my raven black hair
With the roses so red and the lilies so fair
The Myrtle so bright with its emerald dew
The pale EMILITA and ISLIP so blue..

Subject: RE:
From: kendall
Date: 11 Oct 00 - 09:03 AM

should be emerald HUE not dew.

Subject: RE:
From: WyoWoman
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 02:00 AM

Hey, I like ISLIP... I think I'll use that instead of "eyes look so blue ..."

The folk process lives ...

ww

Subject: RE:
From: richardw
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 07:54 PM

Go to Benjamin Tubb's site pdmusic.org for the original words and tune.

Richard Wright

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Vixen
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 08:52 AM

On Randy Scruggs' "Crown of Jewels" CD, it's "pale amanita and hyssop so blue".

another $0.02

V

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Amos
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 09:37 AM

Well she asked me to learn how to play "Wildwood Flower"; So I studied and practiced for hour after hour. Mah fingers are bleeding, no misery can tell! But I still cannot play "Wildwood Flower" very well.

Anon.

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 04:46 PM

It would be very difficult to identify the flower. Common flower names vary from locality to locality. Scientific botanical names change as more precise work is done on classification. A wild guess is that the flower is pale pink, since blue and green are the other colors mentioned. My guess is eglantine, a pale pink species of rose sometimes called sweetbrier. Neither emanita nor amanita appear in Stern's botanical Latin dictionary for flowering plants (the latter in the fungal names only), or in Hutchinson. Whatever, it is a fine old song; I especially like Newfoundlander's version.

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 05:10 PM

Well, then there was that "other" Wildwood Flower song from back in the 70s...

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 06:32 PM

Found this on google. "Wildwood Flower" was written by Maude Irving and J. D. Webster in 1860. In the original, the word was arrownetta, not emanita. This is similar to the aronatus cited by Jerry Friedman in his posting. We are no closer to identification, but is good to know that the song had authors who can be named.

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 07:12 PM

Apologies to Dulcimer, she posted one of the authors above. I found an interview with the Carters in which Maybelle says the words got "mixed-up" as they were passed down in the family. The interviewer was Dick Spottiswood of WAMU. The site has the song as sung by the Carters in 1928, and interpreted as they sing it. The original title was, as Dulcimer stated, "I'll twine midst the ringlets." http://www.npr.org/programs/specials/vote/dlist.html#flower. Maybelle was 19 when the song was recorded.

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 10:21 PM

.....it sure is a nice instrumental piece...

;>)

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Aug 01 - 11:57 PM

Bill D, I'm sure Maybelle's playing with the Carters started a lot of people playing. I have even heard a Mexican mariachi group playing it, using that deep base guitar(?) of theirs to emphasize the melody.

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: sian, west wales
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 07:24 AM

I learned, 'and the leader' but now sing 'leander' which is blue. Also known as the shoo-fly plant and is apparently found around North Carolina ...

"BLUE, Nicandra physaloides: Annual. 2' - 4' tall. Bushy plant has toothed leaves and pretty blue/white blossoms. Seed pods make good everlastings (papery - similar to Chinese lanterns but brown when dry). Ornamental member of the Nightshade family. Supposed to repel insects or kill those sucking the sap."

sian

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Genie
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 12:56 PM

From: genie I agree with Kendall, except I sing "amanita" instead of "emilita": I am inclined to use Maybelle Carter's words--except where they make no sense and appear to be based upon an auditory error. If the song was sung, "...and the pale amanita and islip so blue..." (referring to flowers), it could easily be heard as "...and the pale and the leader and eyes look so blue..." --especially if one heard and learned it as a child!

Everyone will have his or own preference, of course, but the words that make the most sense to me are: "I will twine and will mingle my raven black hair

With the roses so red and the lilies so fair

The Myrtle so bright with its emerald dew

The pale Amanita and Islip so blue."

As an aside: When I was about seven, I lived near Brooklyn, NY, and rooted for the Dodgers. We had just got our first TV and, of course, were glued to the tube for the Dodgers' games. I had never paid any attention to the Star Spangled Banner before hearing it sung before each game. For months--probably until we were taught the words in some school music class--, I thought the words were "Oh, say, can you see by the Dodgerly light ...?"

A guy I heard singing the Eagles' song, "Take It Easy," was singing the line, "...lookin' for a lover who won't blow my brother ...". I asked him about it, thinking he was trying to be cute, but he said he thought that was the real line (which, of course, really is, "...who won't blow my cover...".

This could be an interesting thread, in itself --mis-heard lyrics that get sung in public or printed!

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Genie
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 01:11 PM

From: genie I agree with Kendall, except I sing "amanita" instead of "emilita": I am inclined to use Maybelle Carter's words--except where they make no sense and appear to be based upon an auditory error. If the song was sung, "...and the pale amanita and islip so blue..." (referring to flowers), it could easily be heard as "...and the pale and the leader and eyes look so blue..." --especially if one heard and learned it as a child!

Everyone will have his or own preference, of course, but the words that make the most sense to me are: "I will twine and will mingle my raven black hair With the roses so red and the lilies so fair The Myrtle so bright with its emerald dew The pale Amanita and Islip so blue."

As an aside: When I was about seven, I lived near Brooklyn, NY, and rooted for the Dodgers. We had just got our first TV and, of course, were glued to the tube for the Dodgers' games. I had never paid any attention to the Star Spangled Banner before hearing it sung before each game. For months--probably until we were taught the words in some school music class--, I thought the words were "Oh, say, can you see by the Dodgerly light ...?"

A guy I heard singing the Eagles' song, "Take It Easy," was singing the line, "...lookin' for a lover who won't blow my brother ...". I asked him about it, thinking he was trying to be cute, but he said he thought that was the real line (which, of course, really is, "...who won't blow my cover...".

This could be an interesting thread, in itself --mis-heard lyrics that get sung in public or printed!

Subject: Lyr Add: I'LL TWINE 'MID THE RINGLETS
From: Genie
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 01:25 PM

I got these lyrics from pdmusic.org.

"I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets" (1860)
No. 57.
Words by Maud Irving
Music Joseph Philbrick Webster, 1819-1875

1. I'll twine 'mid the ringlets of my raven black hair,
The lilies so pale and the roses so fair,
|: The myrtle so bright with an emerald hue,
And the pale aronatus with eyes of bright blue. :|

2. I'll sing and I'll dance. My laugh shall be gay.
I'll cease this wild weeping, drive sorrow away.
|: Tho' my heart is now breaking, he never shall know
That his name made me tremble and my pale cheeks to glow. :|

3. I'll think of him never. I'll be wildly gay.
I'll charm ev'ry heart, and the crowd I will sway.
|: I'll live yet to see him, regret the dark hour
When he won, then neglected, the frail wildwood flower. :|

4. He told me he loved me, and promis'd to love,
Through ill and misfortune, all others above,
|: Another has won him. Ah, misery to tell!
He left me in silence, no word of farewell. :|

5. He taught me to love him. He call'd me his flower
That blossom'd for him all the brighter each hour.
|: But I woke from my dreaming. My idol was clay.
My visions of love have all faded away. :|

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Aug 01 - 03:44 PM

J. D. Webster also wrote Lorena, also frequently performed as a folk song.

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 10:58 AM

I saw this song included among a list of Texas songs. Anybody know why?

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,Lynn
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:23 AM

If you'd like to hear a great new version of the song, check out Robin and Linda Williams' new CD, produced by Garrison Kiellor. Sorry but I don't remember the name of it off hand - lots of great old songs on it, though.

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Louie Roy
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:25 AM

I believe the Myrtle that is referred to in the song is actually the Myrtle Wood Tree that grows wild on the Southern Oregon Coast,Northern California Coast and India

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: JedMarum
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:53 AM

so what's the Texas connection? Maybe it was just popular in Texas???

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:41 PM

Versions of the song were heard throughout the country, Texas no exception. There are local variants.
Interpreting "myrtle" ain't easy. The true myrtle is an Asian shrub (including the common myrtle grown in England, the States,etc.). These plants came to America in colonial times. The name also has been applied in the States to the Old World periwinkle (many dogbane woody plants). It has been given to the California laurel (Umbellularia) which is not the laurel of Europe). Then there is crepe myrtle which is grown in the South. It also is applied by some to the purple-blue to pinkish flowering shrub (Kalmia or mountain laurel) of North America.
Names and plants were brought to America in colonial times and were widely used, becoming naturalized if the environment was suitable; moreover, if something native "looked" like what was called a myrtle where the people came from, the name was applied.

Subject: Lyr Add: WILDWOOD FLOWER (Nova Scotia)
From:
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 06:09 PM

H E L P !!!!

Back about 1950, in Nova Scotia, Canada, we sang the song
'WILDWOOD FLOWER' quite a bit; I notice that our LYRICS
are much different from the Carter Family, etc.

ANYONE KNOW THE ORIGIN OF THE LYRICS WE HAVE???? WHO
MIGHT HAVE RECORDED IT WITH THOSE LYRICS????? HERE THEY
ARE;

WILDWOOD FLOWER

She is waiting for me in a rose colored bower,
And her eyes are like violets after a shower,
For she's dreaming of dreams through the long summer hours,
my sweetheart, my own, my frail wildwood flower.

All the wild forest creatures are under her spell,
On her shoulder the dove it's love secrets will tell,
And the wild dappled fawn comes to lie at the feet,
of my frail, wildwood flower, So gentle and so sweet.

I will pick tender blossoms to twine in her hair,
lovely roses so red and the lilies so fair,
Lovely myrtle so bright with the emerald hue,
Buttercups yellow, forget-me-nots blue

There's no artist can paint her, no poet can write,
How she warms this old heart like the sunbeams so bright,
I will love and protect her and never more part,
From that frail wildwood flower that twines around my heart.

YOUR HELP WILL BE MUCH APPRECIATED.
Gladys

---

Answer in this thread (click).

Subject: RE: 1950 Nova Scotia ~ Wildwood Flower'
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 06:26 PM

The way I've heard the story, the Carter version is based on an old parlor song, "I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets." I've seen the lyrics to it and they're not the same as you've posted. Somebody other than the Carters may have revised the song into the one you sang in the '50s, or it may be a revision of the Carter revision. Somebody more knowledgeable should be along shortly to solve the mystery.

Subject: Lyr Add: WILDWOOD FLOWER (Nova Scotia)
From:
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 11:15 PM

Has A N Y O N E ever heard THIS VERSION of 'Wildwood Flower'???????

(In Nova Scotia, Canada, early 1950's - live Performances, kitchen
parties, etc - this is the only version I ever heard; in Ontario,
Canada, now and still hear this version. DOES ANYONE KNOW THIS
VERSION OR W H E R E IT CAME FROM???? It is VERY DIFFERENT from
the Carter Family version.
My EMAIL ADDRESS IS
[e-mail]
if anyone can help me out.

THE LYRICS WE KNOW FOR
"WILDWOOD FLOWER":

She is waiting for me in a rose colored bower,
And her eyes are like violets after a shower,
For she's dreaming of dreams through the long summer hours,
my sweetheart, my own, my frail wildwood flower.

All the wild forest creatures are under her spell,
On her shoulder the dove it's love secrets will tell,
And the wild dappled fawn comes to lie at the feet,
of my frail, wildwood flower, So gentle and so sweet.

I will pick tender blossoms to twine in her hair,
lovely roses so red and the lilies so fair,
Lovely myrtle so bright with the emerald hue,
Buttercups yellow, forget-me-nots blue

There's no artist can paint her, no poet can write,
How she warms this old heart like the sunbeams so bright,
I will love and protect her and never more part,
From that frail wildwood flower that twines around my heart.

Gladys

Subject: RE: Wildwood Flower
From: Joe_F
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 08:47 PM

Where does it say that amanita can be a flower name? Amanita is the name of a genus of mushrooms, of which the most notorious is Amanita phalloides, which (in the words of John Collier) combines the liveliest of forms with the deadliest of substances. The notion of a lady decking her hair with poisonous phalluses in memory of a treacherous lover does have a certain charm, but plausibility forbids.

Islip is the name of a town in Oxfordshire, England, and one named after it on Long Island, New York. It does not appear in the OED as the name of a flower or anything else.

Subject: Lyr/Chords Add: WILDWOOD FLOWER (from Lee Moore)
From: Inükshük
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:46 PM

Well, here's Lee Moore's version as I transcribed from one of his records. I'd sure like to hear Doc Williams version.

WILDWOOD FLOWER
as per Lee Moore

She is [G] waiting for me in a [D7] rose covered [G] bower
And her eyes are like violets [D7] after a [G] shower
For she's dreaming of me through the [C] long summer [G] hours
My sweetheart, my own, my [D7] frail wildwood flower.


All the wild forest creatures are under her spell.
On her shoulder the dove his love secrets will tell
And the shy dappled fawn comes to lie at the feet
Of my frail wildwood flower, so gentle and so sweet.


I will pick tender blossoms to twine in her hair;
Blushing roses so red and the lilies so fair,
Lovely myrtle so bright with emerald hue,
Modest buttercups yellow, forget-me-nots blue.


Hand in hand through the wildwood together we'll stray,
She will sing, she will dance and my heart she will sway,
And her laughter will echo like ripples at play
Till my trials like my heart has stolen away.

---

I moved this message here from another thread about "The Cat Came Back," where it had been posted by mistake. Note that it answers the question from Gladys above - I sent Gladys an e-mail.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr Add: WILDWOOD FLOWER (from Lee Moore)
From: GUEST,Gladys........ MY ~2002 Request
Date: 25 Jan 04 - 03:27 PM

MANY, MANY THANKS to
"Joe Offer"
who, on Jan. 23, 2004, sent me the thread for the lyrics for
Wildwood Flower...AS WE KNEW IT, NOT THE CARTER FAMILY VERSION.
JOE OFFER NOTICED A POST FROM ONE INUKSHUK JAN. 20/04. (It was posted under lyrics for 'Cat Came Back' and Joe Offer redirected me to the thread)
THANKS SO VERY MUCH !!!!
GLADYS

and HERE IT IS......
"Well, here's Lee Moore's version as I transcribed from one of his records. I'd sure like to hear Doc Williams version."

WILDWOOD FLOWER
as per Lee Moore

She is [G] waiting for me in a [D7] rose covered [G] bower
And her eyes are like violets [D7] after a [G] shower
For she's dreaming of me through the [C] long summer [G] hours
My sweetheart, my own, my [D7] frail wildwood flower.


All the wild forest creatures are under her spell.
On her shoulder the dove his love secrets will tell
And the shy dappled fawn comes to lie at the feet
Of my frail wildwood flower, so gentle and so sweet.


I will pick tender blossoms to twine in her hair;
Blushing roses so red and the lilies so fair,
Lovely myrtle so bright with emerald hue,
Modest buttercups yellow, forget-me-nots blue.


Hand in hand through the wildwood together we'll stray,
She will sing, she will dance and my heart she will sway,
And her laughter will echo like ripples at play
Till my trials like my heart has stolen away.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Feb 04 - 11:19 PM

Gladys got an e-mail back from Rose the Record Lady, who apparently had two Lee Moore recordings of Wildwood Flower. One was the well-known Carter Family version, and the other (She is waiting for me in a rose covered bower) is titled "New Wildwood Flower."
I gather that the tune is the same - can anybody verify that? songwriter for "new" is still a mystery.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Feb 04 - 05:48 PM

Never heard of an "Islip" as a flower. There's "Cowslip", if course. Our cowslips are yellow, but evidently the American Cowslip is a different plant - here is a picture of one. Not exactly blue, but maybe they vary.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,zolstead
Date: 18 Jun 04 - 03:07 PM

http://www-ang.kfunigraz.ac.at/~katzer/engl/generic_frame.html?Hyss_off.html "Hyssop so blue"

Subject: Aronatus -- RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,Bramicus
Date: 09 Oct 05 - 02:07 PM

I believe this flower's name was formed from two Latin words, aro (plow, till, cultivate; produce by plowing) and natus (be produced spontaneously, come into existance/being; spring forth, grow).

Hence, the aronatus would have been a wildflower that grew spontaneously from recently tilled soil.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 10 Oct 05 - 12:54 AM

Branicus, your Latin is satisfactory, but I'm afraid spontaneous generation was disproven near the time of the Middle Ages.

No one has ever identified what plant Irving and Webster meant by 'pale aronatus with eyes of bright blue.' They may have invented this flower to rhyme with 'The myrtle so bright with an emerald hue.'

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,Maggie
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 09:54 PM

I always was taught growing up from my father that it was aronatus and that that was as in reference to calling someone an angel. "Pale aronatus with eyes of bright blue." We have always had the song as an oral tradition through my family, as others, that was passed around the Appalachian Mountains. It's pronunciation origin, like most Appalachian pronunciations in the area my family comes from, is mingled with Old English and Irish.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,Eric Bram
Date: 23 Feb 06 - 05:45 AM

Well, Q, obviously spontaneous generation doesn't occur, as we all know (perhaps you were being facetious or just playful in calling me on that). But from the Latin it makes sense to me that the word "aronatus" -- "created by plowing" (not "born of the plow"; that would be "aratronatus", as John Dyson of Indiana University points out) -- would refer to a wildflower that seems to spring up almost overnight from freshly plowed soil. That fits in with the backwoods spirit of the song, too. And that's the way I sing it.

- Eric Bram (Bramicus)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower/define the word emanita
From: GUEST
Date: 22 May 06 - 05:53 PM

these lyrics were written by lee moore. he was a member of the wheeling jamboree, and he did the night show as the coffee drinking nighthawk. I loved listening to him when i was a kid in Nove scotia. he would play and sing every night live on air with his guitar and spun records all night. this was back in the late fifties early sixties. I got to see him live at the the edison hotel in toronto about 1969, he was just as good as on the radio. I am rambling on but i hope this help you a bit. yours truly Guy Melanson Http://www.guymelanson.com

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower/define the word emanita
From: Bill D
Date: 22 May 06 - 07:03 PM

"these" lyrics? Which lyrics? Lee Moore certainly didn't write the original song. Almost everyone has sung the song, so there are many, many versions and interpretations.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower/define the word emanita
From: jaze
Date: 23 May 06 - 02:08 PM

The Joan Baez Songbook lists the line as "I'll twine with my mingles of raven black hair". And Genie- I don't think I'll ever hear "Take It Easy" the same way again! ROTFLMAO

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower/define the word emanita
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:46 AM

I heard John Carter Cash talking about this on CMT and he said that one word that A.P. Carter recorded incorrectly was eyes instead of iris.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower/define the word emanita
From: Bill D
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:28 AM

Back then, they mostly just sang the songs according to what they thought they heard....wasn't too much 'research' going on.
Why, even Mudcat had to be typed out on an old typewriter and corrected with white-out. Sometimes it took weeks for a page to be carried down to the post office and mailed to the next member for comment! ...and 'guests' would lay traps and hijack the mail and alter the words. Maybe that's where 'eyes' instead of 'Iris' got in?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower/define the word emani
From: Kaleea
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:31 PM

"I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets" (1860)
(aka: Wildwood Flower)

                                                                     
Music by Joseph Philbrick Webster, 1819-1875
                                                                                             
Words by Maud Irving

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: GUEST,fatmama
Date: 13 Aug 09 - 10:26 PM

anyone consider these are plants of medicinal (poisonous) origin and islip could be hyssop? or hyacinth. maybe she planned on getting even!!!! or stoned. remember laudanum?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 04:54 PM

The speculation is pointless.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower
From: autoharper
Date: 14 Aug 09 - 05:01 PM

The melody we call "The Wildwood Flower" has always seemed (to me) similar to the melody of "Bony on St. Helena" (AKA "Buonaparte").
-Adam Miller

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,John Hempel
Date: 21 Apr 11 - 01:11 PM

Regardless of what someone wrote in 1860, it's pretty obvious that that was probably a botched transcription of something going much farther back. Two notes: a) I passed this along to Fred Bartenstein and he read them on his Banks of the Ohio show a few yrs back. b) I feel some personal connection to this song since the first time I first heard it was when Maybelle played it on her autoharp on our highschool stage (Jefferson High, Annandale VA, in the spring of 1966 or 67). Besides the autoharp, I remember she had these really cool hightop, lace-up boots. One of the history teachers there, Mr. Blevins, was active in a folk music organization and arranged for her to come play for our American Civilization classes.

If you accept that we're talking about wild roses and lily of the valley, all the flowers below are of a size suitable for entwining in a girl's hair, too.

I'll entwine and co-mingle my raven black hair
With the roses so red and the lilies so fair
And the myrtle so bright with its emerald hue
The pale angelica and violets so blue.

(Ordinarily, you accent the second syllable of Angelica, but switch to the third and all is resolved.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Apr 11 - 11:40 AM

I just searched for this on the sheet music sites I know of:

Library of Congress
Indiana University
Lester Levy

None of them seemed to have it. Anybody know of any other sources?

From what I can tell on this thread, nobody's seen the sheet music. It's unfair to call the 1860 song 'botched' when we don't even know what lyrics it had.

Me, I don't care what the flowers are, because to me the joy of the song lies in its wonderful melody.

PS We gardeners often speak of flowers having eyes. Certain varieties of phlox, for instance.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,John Hempel
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 05:35 PM

@ leeneia: Well, if you had first read or at least skimmed the comments in this thread, as I did before I posted, you'd find the 1860 lyrics, with source. Search for aronatus – you'll come to it.   And then why is it unfair to call something botched if it makes no sense? That is the whole reason for this thread.   It's well known that AP Carter roamed the hollows of southwest VA and beyond, collecting songs, but I've never heard anyone claim that he had any understanding of plants. If he got Wildwood Flower from one of his expeditions, I suspect that he wrote as close to what he was hearing and let it go at that. He liked the melody, like you.   But some people find greater appreciation from both the music and lyrics that they can understand.   It's called visual imagery.   What I tried to come up with are lyrics that phonetically approximate the Carter lyrics while keeping the flowers as common as possible.   Since my first post I've noted that Iris Dement, who I like a lot, has lyrics that are better that the Carters, but IMHO still fall short in the broadly understood category (hyssop perhaps (altho more known as an herb and native to Asia & the Mediterranean, but as noted above, emanita??)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 07:49 PM

The lyrics can be found in pdmusic:
Ill twine mid the ringlets

Leeneia, I skimmed the thread and missed it too. Genie posted them. And since aronatus, whatever Maud Irving had in mind, will never be known, it is pointless to speculate.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the
From: GUEST,Owen
Date: 12 Jun 11 - 01:20 PM

I believe that the most common misheard words are: Emerald dew, should be, emerald hue. Wavin black hair, should be, raven black hair. The pale and the leader, with eyes so blue, should be, the pale oleander and violets so blue.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM

Hi Owen,
See my post from 11 Apr. We agree on all but oleander - good!

But, I think angelica, accenting the third syllable, is a far better deduction than oleander, and here's why, both phonetically and botanically. In all of this, keep in mind that AP Carter traveled into remote hollows in the '20s to transcribe these songs, many of which had been passed down by oral tradition - he could often only write what he heard - there was no songbook.

Now, phonetically, I don't see a misunderstood word starting O being replaced with one starting with A. The sounds are just to common and distinct. Plus, the d in 'and' is rarely pronounced. Now run the first two together in comparison - An'ge / An'(dt)h' There is no contest with that vs. 'O le' - the 'le' doesn't come till the third syllable, and both 'an'ge'li-' and 'an' th' le-' match. Oleander only wins on the last syllable, but the score may not be that overwhelming in that frame. I've lately noticed that many English and New Englanders put an r on the end of words ending in a vowel, so it seems not that unlikely that at some point angeli-ca became angeli-ker.

Now, botanically, the first thing you read about oleander is that IT IS POISONOUS, and apparently more than just a little. It's also non-native (to either the US or England), and thus NOT A WILDFLOWER. Then, have a look at angelica and oleander. Which, aesthetically, seem more appropriate to put in one's raven black hair.

If you knew how angelica is ordinarily pronounced but you'd never heard the song, and someone handed you these lyrics, I think you'd pretty quickly figure that you'd accent the third syllable to make it all work. But if you knew nothing of the plant (as, I suppose AP didn't) and heard it accented on the wrong syllable to boot, it seems to me that you could pretty easily write 'And the Leader' in place of 'AngeLIca' with barely a shrug, and keep writing.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,John Hempel
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:29 AM

Oops to the above, make that 21 April, and it seems I forgot to enter my name, too.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 02:24 PM

Someday I'd like to find what I mentioned before: the original sheet music (if any) for this song. It would be nice to see the lyrics, the melody and the accompaniment. Even the cover art. Sometimes when we do that, we get an interesting surprise.

So John, climb down. I saw Genie's words. No post posted by someone 150 years later is as good as the original sheet music.

Maybe if I find the song in an antique store, I could put it up for sale for $135,000,000, just like Mr. Lehman (see other thread on that.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 01:34 PM

Leeneia, the "source" at pdmusic indicates a Library of Congress Call Number.
I looked at the records that they have online (nothing by Maud Irving) but several songs by J. P. Webster, in three catalogues, but "I'll twine...." not listed.

Try communicating with them using the Call number listed at pdmusic, M1621.W. Their catalogues are not complete, as I found in another search, and items do get "misplaced.".

If you can't find it there, keep hunting and good luck!
I hunted all over for the original "My Pretty Quadroon" and found it in a library in Chicago (I had to give a donation, but they were prompt and sent a complete scan of the sheet music).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:54 PM

Thanks for the hints on searching, Q.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,reynardine
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 02:25 AM

Still haven't figured out about ameliter/emelita/ amanita (tho had a good laugh at poison phalluses), but "eyes' look" has been a folkloric name for dayflower - the truest of true blues- tradescantia, its slightly more indigo relative, and chicory, an introduced member of the daisy family, whose flowers are a delightful baby blue. All of these have flexible stems, easily twined and mingled with hair of any color, and all close a bit after noon. There is a composite called emilia with a suitably flexible stem. Usually it's brilliant red, but according to Bailey's Hortus Second, one species has a white or pale pink variety.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Dec 11 - 03:22 PM

Emilia in the southeastern U. S. is the introduced E. sonchifolia, found is South Carolina, Georgia and farther south (its normal color is lilac), or the also introduced E. fosbergii found in Texas-Louisiana and California (also lilac to purplish). Both have the common name "tasselflower."

As to what was meant in the songs, this is just idle speculation.

Subject: Lyr Add: WILDWOOD FLOWER
From: GUEST,Buffalo
Date: 21 May 12 - 12:01 AM

Here's my version, put together from some of the lyrics above and others. The first verse is as I saw it in a very unofficial old folk song book in probably the late fifties. The rest is, as I said, a mix of many versions and maybe a word here and there I stuck in to help with the flow. I had no better luck than the rest of you with botanical reference to emanita or islip.

WILDWOOD FLOWER

I will twine and will mingle my waving black hair
With the roses so red and the lilies so fair
The myrtle so green with an emerald hue
The pale emanita and islip so blue

Oh he taught me to love him and promised to love
To cherish me always, all others above
I woke from my dreaming, my idol was clay
All passion for living had all flown away

He promised to love me and called me his flower
A blossom to cheer him thru life's weary hour
How my heart now is breaking, no mis'ry can tell
He left with no warning, no words of farewell

I will sing, I will dance, and my life shall be gay
I'll banish this weeping, drive sorrow away
Tho my heart now is aching, he never shall know
How his name makes me tremble, my pale cheeks to glow

I will sing, I will dance, and my life shall be gay
I will charm every heart in the crowd I survey
I'll live yet to see him regret the dark hour
He loved and neglected this frail wildwood flower

Repeat first verse

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 21 May 12 - 11:22 PM

That makes much more sense, Buffalo, and is grammatical to boot. But I'm not going to change how I sing it.

"I woke from my dream, and all idols was clay..."

I would miss the naive and unworldly damsel from up the holler too much.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Genie
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 02:32 AM

This is supposed to be a MIDI of the original (J P Webster) tune to "I'll Twine 'Mid The Ringlets". It does resemble what most of us know today as "Wildwood Flower" but it seems to have changed a good deal over the past 150 years.


BTW, on the pdmusic.org website I did not find the lyrics.

Genie


PS,
After singing "emelita" or "emanita" and "islip" for a number of years, I've decided to go with "the pale oleander and violets so blue," because of the sound of those words and because I'm not sure there are flowers called "emelita" or "emanita" or "islip" or whether any of those are blue.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Jun 12 - 12:13 PM

The lyrics are on the pdmusic.org site (1860, link second column under Maud Irving).
Link:
http://www.pdmusic.org/webster/jpw60itmtr.txt

Still looking for sheet music.

In pdmusic.org, what reference does their code [M1621.W] refer to?

To repeat, there are no botanical names 'emanita' or 'islip', nor are the names known as common or vulgar names for any flowers.

In the lyrics on pdmusic.org, it is the myrtle "with an emerald hue" and the "pale aronatus with eyes so bright blue."

There is no flower with the botanical name 'aronatus'. See Stearn, Botanical Latin. It is not known as a common or vulgar name for a flower.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 08:59 PM

Since no one knows for sure what the original lyric was, I now sing the version that makes the most sense: "The pale Amaryllis and hyssop so blue" – because there IS a pale Amaryllis flower, and the hyssop IS "so blue" (here's a photo: Hyssop)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 09:03 PM

I believe M1621.W is the Library of Congress category.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Sep 13 - 09:08 PM

M1621.W is the entry given at pdmusic for the Library of Congress number for sheet music of "I'll Twine 'Mid....." from 1860.

A duplication services form may be requested from the Library of Congress. An online order form may be accessed using this url: http://www.loc.gov/duplicationservices/order

The cost is $US18.00 (or more, depending on the work involved) to process the order. MC, VISA, accepted.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 11:53 AM

Hi, Genie. Where did you find that MIDI of the original melody? What website?

Q, thanks for the info, but I don't think I care to spend $18 on one song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

The midi looks like the one in pdmusic, found under Joseph Philbrick Webster, 1860. Is this the one, Genie?

I don't want to spend the $18 or more either. That will buy me a couple of good steaks at the market.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 03:46 PM

I've located a library that seems to have the original 1860 sheet music for I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets and I've ordered it. I'll let you know when (and if) I get it.

Meanwhile, you can see a copy of what is supposedly the composer's version of the music online at the University Of Wisconsin Digital Collections, here. It isn't the published sheet music, however, it's a handwritten, undated, unsigned manuscript with the music and lyrics to one verse of "I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets" that was presumably among private papers from the estate of the composer, J.P. Webster. I have no reason to believe it's not authentic, but since it's not the published sheet music there's no way to tell for sure if it's the original music.

Incidentally, as I posted on the other thread, I've done some research and found some additional "Maud Irving" poems identifying their author as J. William Van Namee, using "Maud Irving" as his pseudonym (he was writing for "ladies' magazines" of the time). You can see what I found HERE. As far as I know (please correct me if you know otherwise), this is the first time anyone (since the 19^th Century, anyway) has identified Van Namee as the probable author of the 1860 Twine lyrics.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:11 PM

The volume by J. William Van Namee," Home monthly: Devoted to Home Education, Literature, and Religion,, vol. 5, Edited by Rev Wm. M. Thayer, D. C. Childs & C0., Cornhill, Boston.ontains poems by Van Namee, some of which have Maud Irving added parenthetically after his name.
One such is "I'm Waiting for Thee," p. 83, which has lines suggestive of "I'll Twine 'Mid....."
http://www.ergo-sum.net/music/MaudIrving.html.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM

Taconicus previously linked the poem, "I'm Waiting for Thee," in post above.
Sorry for the duplication.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:52 AM

Genie, never mind my question about the web site. When I downloaded the MIDI to Noteworthy Composer, I saw a footnote that mentioned Benjamin Tubb, so it must have come from his site.

Taconicus, thanks for the link to the music from Wisconsin. If you go to the second page, where the B part repeats, you see that the words are:

the myrtle so bright with its emerald hue
and the pale aronatus with eye of bright blue.

So the arnonatus may not exist anywhere but in this song.

Me, I'm tempted to change it to 'the pale blooming iris and vi'let so blue.' I don't feel like explaining about the mythical aronatus every time I sing the song.
==================
I'm going to introduce a new element here and mention that in my searches on the big sites for old American music (sites such as Levy, Duke, Indiana, Lib of Congress) I have come across a person named MaNd Irving. I forget whether Mand was a composer or lyricist, but I don't think it matters. He could have been one thing one day, and the other thing another day.

I can easily picture Mand being taken for Maud, especially in handwriting. In the Wisconsin example, the n in 'Maud' looks just like the n in 'Twine' in the title.

Isn't the feminine name Maud supposed to have an e on the end - Maude?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 12:21 PM

In "I'm Waiting for Thee," van Namee/Maud Irving has the lines "And blue-eyed forget-me-nots Are blossoming there;"

Would "and the blue-eyed forget-me-not..." work?

Unfortunately, the MS copy has no attribution to published source.

In the volume by Van Namee, he clearly gives "Maud Irving" as a synonym for his name in the poem, "I'm Waiting for Thee," so "Mand" seems unrelated.

In the brief article "Maud (given name)" in Wiki, "Maud" is the correct spelling for several female members of the nobility and actresses, so that spelling seems to be an alternate.
Their article on "Maude" lists actresses and others with that first name; also Maude as an English last name.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:04 PM

As I showed in the research, in the 19th century "Maud Irving" was a two-word given name, like Ann Marie or Peggy Sue, not a first name and last name, and it was used as such in works of fiction.

Personally, I use the lyric the pale amaryllis and [the] hyssop so blue, not because there's any historical justification for doing so, but because (1) there really is a pale amaryllis, (2) the hyssop flower really is "so blue," (3) it's at least conceivable that hyssop so blue could have resulted in the mondegreen eyes of bright blue of Wildwood Flower because of its similarity in sound, and most importantly (4) I think it sounds better. :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 01:37 PM

Hyssop flowers may be pink, blue or white. A number of species, some used as garden plants. One American anise hyssop may be pink or lilac and another has bright red flowers.

Amaryllis is South African, rare in American cultivation, lavender and white. What is sold in America as Amaryllis is really Hippeastrum, the bright red now the commonest of those sold. Species are spread from Argentina to Mexico.

Forget-me-not (Myosotis) may be blue or white (the Northern Hemisphere species) and is common in moist gardens.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:13 PM

The late Pete Sayers of Newmarket, country singer extraordinaire, the only [I think] Englishman who had a regular radio program in Nashville, who died 2005, also noted radio comedian in his Radio Cambridge persona of "Denis of Grunty Fen"* used to sing a parody version about his very thin girlfriend, beginning

"My flower of the wildwood is skinny and tall
Without her Adam's apple she'd have no shape at all".

It continues in this vein. At one point, I recall, she found work as a stripper, but


Instead of shouting "take 'em off" they hollered "keep 'em on!".

I heard him sing it at an early Cambridge FF, & once interviewed him for my Folk Review column and got him to sing it again, but alas have lost the tape.

Does anyone else remember this version, or know any more of the words?

~M~

*A stretch of land near where I live in the Cambs fens, just south of Ely. Clement Freud, who was MP for the Isle of Ely as well as noted personality & tv chef, used to race a horse called Grunty Fen, which had several wins I believe.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 02:23 PM

Yes, Q, more probable is amaranthus (the word used in some versions of the song [e.g., The Pale Amaranthus, Shearin, Hubert G.; Combs, Josiah H., A Syllabus Of Kentucky Folk-Songs (1911)]). I just like the sound of amaryllis better, and the flower itself looks nicer than the amaranthus, but you're right about the geographical improbabliity.

Leenia, thanks for your lead about "Mand Irving." Following up on that, I found there are two songs listed as having "words by Mand Irving," one called Broken Harp (held at a library at Brigham Young University), and another called One Fond Heart (held at a Duke University library).

With publication dates of 1860 and 1861, this may well be the same author as the "Maud Irving" of I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets. Since these computer listings often make use of OCR (optical character recognition by computer) it may be that Mand may actually be Maud, since as you've pointed out the one letter can be confused for the other. We can't know until we examine the original sheet music. I've ordered them, will let you know what I find. You many have just located another two Maud Irving songs!

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:45 PM

I've already received one of the manuscripts, the one for One Fond Heart, and it is definitely printed as WORDS BY MAND IRVING, copyright 1860. If this is not a misprint (and I have no reason to think it is), then unless and until we receive actual printed sheet music of a song of that time clearly showing words by Maud Irving, it strikes me as likely that the actual author of the lyrics for I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets was this Mand Irving, not the Van Namee "Maud Irving" who wrote the poem in Gaudy's and other magazines. Which, of course, would mean that all the research I did on Maud Irving is likely irrelevant as far as I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets is concerned. It would also mean that every previous reference to "Maud Irving" as being the author of the words to the folk tune is incorrect.

On the other hand, although the Mills Music Library (University of Wisconsin) copy is in cursive and certainly can be seen as being ambiguous as to whether "Maud" or "Mand" is written, I can't imagine that all the previous "Maud" references were based on a handwritten manuscript.

Well, that's the way research goes. We'll just have to see what we discover as other printed sheet music by Mand or Maud Irving are found.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 03:47 PM

The two well-known amaranth ornamentals are caudatus (Deep purple) also called Love-lies-bleeding, and hypochondriacus (deep crimson) also called Prince's Feather. Both are from India.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 04:11 PM

"Broken Harp," Boston. 1861, is by N. P. B. Curtiss, a prolific songwriter and Mand Irving (poetry), no data. Dedicated to Miss Molly K. Moore, Calhoun Institute, Macon, Miss.

Mand = Maud? Possible, as you explain, but why would Van Namee use Maud Irving as a pseudonym in one of his books?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 04:33 PM

The possible explanations for his using that pseudonym (a very common practice in that century) are discussed on the Mystery of Maud Irving page. He didn't use it in his books, as far as I know, just in submitting poems to magazines.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 05:07 PM

I've now received the second sheet music publication (Broken Harp) listed as being "Music by Mand Irving" and it appears to say Maud (not Mand) Irving (see the title page here).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 06:28 PM

Yes, that certainly is Maud on that sheet.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 07:20 PM

"The Well Remembered Voice," poem by Maud Irving, appeared in The Peterson Magazine, vol. 35, Jan-June 1859.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 25 Sep 13 - 07:48 PM

Yes, he had a number of poems published in Peterson's under the name Maud Irving, and of course his big book of poetry published in 1868.

Here are the lyrics to Broken Harp published as a song in 1861, with music by a different composer. Pretty dreary, maudlin stuff, even with the flowers in it, but if you really want to try it I can supply you with the music:

Broken Harp
poetry by Maud Irving
music by N.P.B. Curtiss
Published by Russell & Tolman (Boston, 1861)

You bid me mend my broken harp,
And add another string;
You bid me strike an higher key,
And soar on higher wing.

Oh! friend, dear friend, you know not of
The broken ties, the woe;
You know not of the dark, dark clouds
That follow me where're I go
You know not of the dark, dark clouds
That follow me where're I go

You bid me treat the wrong I've felt,
With bitter withering scorn,
But oh, you know not how my heart
Is bleeding, sad, forlorn,

I cannot sing in cheerful strains,
When all my joys have fled,
When every flower of love and hope,
Their fragrance all, all have shed.
When every flower of love and hope,
Their fragrance all, all have shed.

Oh no, my lyre must wake the song,
The song of grief and woe;
For while I linger on this earth,
My heart no joy can know.

The clouds that float above my head,
Are not with silver lined,
And but a few short months will life
To earth my spirit bind.
And but a few short months will life
To earth my spirit bind.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Rumncoke
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:49 AM

About the flower - no one seems to have mentioned the blue flowered aconitum napellus, or monkshood, wolfs bane, devils helmet etc.

The flower is an intense blue violet and the plant contains a deadly poison.

The root can be confused with horseradish (honest, officer) but an oily extract is warming to the skin and helps with joint pain - just don't have a cut or graze on the skin when applying it.

Aconitum so blue would fit very well.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 04:10 PM

Aconitum napellus is a European plant, but is grown in some American gardens.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Rumncoke
Date: 26 Sep 13 - 05:52 PM

the American Northern monkshood is Aconitum Noveboracense - sorry, I forgot to use an American species.

Iowa, Wisconsin, Ohio and New York are where it is found, but it is a threatened species due to its habitat being removed or polluted.

The European species was at one time widely used by florists as its colour was quite rare, and I'd be surprised if various Aconitum species were not grown to supply cut flowers in the 19th century. These days blue flowers are not so rare due to the work of plants men and scientists.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:25 PM

At long last, I've received a copy of the actual published sheet music to I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets. It pretty much matches what Genie wrote above in 2001. Here are the actual lyrics, verbatim (including original italics, punctuation, and capitalization):

I'll twine 'mid the ringlets
Of my raven black hair,
The lilies so pale
And the roses so fair,
The myrtle so bright
With an emerald hue,
And the pale aronatus
With eyes of bright blue.

I'll sing, and I'll dance,
My laugh shall be gay,
I'll cease this wild weeping
Drive sorrow away,
Tho' my heart is now breaking,
He never shall know,
That his name made me tremble
And my pale cheeks to glow.

I'll think of him never
I'll be wildly gay,
I'll charm ev'ry heart
And the crowd I will sway,
I'll live yet to see him
Regret the dark hour
When he won, then neglected,
The frail wildwood flower.

He told me he loved me,
And promis'd to love,
Through ill and misfortune,
All others above,
Another has won him,
Ah! misery to tell;
He left me in silence
No word of farewell!

He taught me to love him,
He call'd me his flower
That blossom'd for him
All the brighter each hour;
But I woke from my dreaming,
My idol was clay;
My visions of love
Have all faded away.

- Taken from published sheet music in the Department of Special Collections, Stanford University Libraries: I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets. Words by Maud Irving. Music by J.P. Webster. Copyrighted and Published (1860, 1862) by H.M. Higgins, 117 Randolph Street, Chicago. Pearson, engraver. (The "1860, 1862" signifies that this is from an 1862 compilation published by H.M. Higgins entitled "WESTERN GEMS: SONGS COMPOSED BY J.P. WEBSTER." The page showing I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets shows the 1860 date.) I'd post a scan online but Stanford requires permission for further reproduction.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 05:30 PM

Meh, I forgot to include show the italics. For some reason, three words in the sheet music were italicized:

...
He never shall know,
That his name made me tremble
...
Have all faded away.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:44 PM

Very good! Could you give a link?

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 07:45 PM

Thanks very much, Taconicus! This is almost equivalent to finding the Fountain of Youth or the Philosopher's Stone. People have been searchng for this original a long time.

I never would have guessed that this song, one of the quintessential bluegrass songs, was written in Wisconsin and published in Chicago.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 30 Sep 13 - 08:35 PM

No one said it was written in Wisconsin. University of Wisconsin is just who digitized a collection of papers from the estate of the composer J.P. Webster. But yes, the sheet music was published in Chicago. In fact, that's why the sheet music has been so hard to find: the publisher's offices and warehouse were burned in the great Chicago fire. The copy I obtained is from a "pre-fire Chicago" collection at Stanford. Here's the info so you can get your own copy:

William R. and Louise Fielder Sheet Music Collection
Special Collections M701
Box 38, Folder 4
I'll twine Ômid the ringlets Chicago :H. M. Higgins,1860 [sic]

Contact: Stanford University,
Manuscripts Division of the Department of Special Collections
email: speccollref "at" stanford.edu
subject: Request for duplication services

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 01:03 AM

Now we are back with this song [for which I add my voice of thanks to Taconicus], could I ask again if anyone else recalls Pete Sayers' parody I quoted 25 sep 0213, or remembers hearing him sing it?

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 10:55 AM

Here's some info on Webster from Wikipedia:

"J.P. Webster was born in Manchester, New Hampshire on February 22, 1819. From an early age he expressed an interest and talent in music,... Afterwards he travelled extensively throughout the Eastern United States as a concert singer, including notable stays in New York and Madison, Indiana, where he performed with the famous "Swedish Nightingale" Jenny Lind, as her pianist. After years of travel, Webster eventually settled in Racine, Wisconsin.

Sometime before 1859 Webster developed what was commonly called "Lake Michigan Throat", a severe form of bronchitis, forcing him to abandon his singing career and move...to Elkhorn, Wisconsin. No longer having the strength in his voice for singing, Webster turned his attention to composing music."

So as I said, this 'bluegrass' song was written in Wisconsin.   

I think the connection to Jenny Lind adds a charming touch to this story.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:10 PM

Oh, sorry. When you said "written in Wisconsin" I thought you were talking about the "Maud Irving" lyrics. Those were probably written by Van Namee in the Riverside section of Monroe, Michigan, where most if not all of his other poetry of the time was apparently written. Later he moved to New York City and became very active in the spiritualist religion. He was also involved in the temperance movement.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 12:40 PM

The Great Chicago Fire destroyed supplies of many songs; Chicago was the home of several important publishers of sheet music.

I searched for the original sheet music of "My Pretty Quadroon," a beautiful song with abolitionist sentiments in the original, and found a copy at the Newberry Library, Chicago.
"My Pretty Quadroon," 1863, words and music by Mrs. Mary Dodge (posted in mudcat).
The Newberry Library also is a large repository of sheet music, ephemera and historical material in their Department of Special Collections.

The Stanford Catalogues are mutually shared with the University of Texas, another large repository, with many writers' manuscripts among other materials.

"The pale aronatus" is in the sheet music Taconicus located. Many have speculated about the identity of this flower, without conclusion.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 02:26 PM

Two things. First, Van Namee (Maud Irving) apparently lived in Brooklyn, NYC, both pre-1860 and afterward. However, many of his poems were bylined "Riverside," Monroe, Mich. - possibly a vacation residence.

Second, I've received permission from Stanford to make copies of and distribute the sheet music (which is now in the public domain), as long as I cite them as the source. So I'm going to try to scan the sheets and post them online so you all can enjoy learning the original music (which is a bit different from the Carter's Wildwood Flower version).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Oct 13 - 02:57 PM

It will be interesting to see them. Some scores have been printed with songs in the DT. If the sheets cannot be scanned into mudcat, perhaps you (or someone) would prepare the score for entry.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:27 AM

As promised, here is the Sheet music to I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets (if the link works).

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 12:41 AM

OK, that method of linking doesn't work. Instead, click on this link to go to The Mystery of Maud Irving, then scroll to the bottom of that page and click on the "Sheet music to I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets" link at the top of the last paragraph.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 01:21 AM

Re my request above for the Pete Sayers "Skinny & tall" variant. I googled these words & got the following on the google index --


~~mudcat.org: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4074
17 Feb 1998 ... Oh my flower of the wildwood was skinny and tall 'Cept for her adam's apple, she had no shape at all I can still see her there, sittin' under the ...~~

i.e. a link to THIS thread; but above doesn't occur on this thread, or SFAICS on any of the links above to other threads re this song or the DT.

Any idea where I might find the song ref'd to in this index entry?

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Oct 13 - 01:13 PM

Thanks, Taconicus. Nice to have the sheet music.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 10:50 AM

oboyoboyoboy

Not only is the melody not quite the Carter version, it differs somewhat with every verse. I've printed it out from your site, Taconicus. My friends are going to like this.

To be accurate here, I feel the need to point out that the lyricist's name on 'One Fond Heart' and on 'Broken Heart' is not Maud, it's MaNd.

Meanwhile, that was good spotting about the lilies, the roses and the blue-eyed flowers, which occur in the song and in a poem by Van Namee. I for one am ready to conclude that Van Namee wrote the lyrics to 'I'll Twine Mid the Ringlets.'

Thanks for enriching our music and for finally, finally solving the mystery of the fair aronatus.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 10:35 PM

On the "Mystery of Maud Irving" page I pointed out the apparent misprint (Mand) on the "One Fond Heart" sheet music (not on "Broken Harp" – which says Maud). Because the year (1860) is within one year of the other Maud Irving songs, it must be either a misprint or an attempt at "passing off" by using a false name so similar, not a coincidence.

Here's a link that gives a close-up of the "Broken Harp" sheet so you can see it's spelled correctly on that one.

Someone said finding the identity was the "holy grail," but for me that would be finding the original poem that Webster put music to for the song, and seeing if it's the same as in the song (and he really did write aronatus) or whether it was a different flower in the original poem. At least we know for sure that aronatus really was in the sheet music. :)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 03 Oct 13 - 11:07 PM

I see it was you, Leeneia, who said that. Thank you; you're too kind.

I was at Columbia University today checking the microfilm copy they have there of the only known copy of Van Namee's first book (under the pseudonym Willie Ware), Driftwood on the Sea of Life (1860). I was hoping to find a copy of the original poem for I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets, in there, as certain proof of his authorship. Unfortunately it wasn't in there, although Driftwood did contain copies of some of the other "Maud Irving" poems of his I had already found in magazines. For example, the poem "Gentle Words" on page 124 of the "Willie Ware" book Driftwood is the exact same poem as "Gentle Words Fall on the Heart" published under the "Maud Irving" byline in the periodical The Home Monthly.

There are other odd coincidences I noticed in the book. But nothing about twining wildflowers into hair, etc. Nor is it in his 1868 book poems (a copy of which I already had), so while I'm also pretty sure Van Namee is the lyracist of I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets, we still don't have certain proof.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:18 PM

I agree, Taconicus.   I'm pretty sure as well. I've been playing the music on the piano, with 'woodland warbling', as specified on the upper left corner of the music, on a sopranino recorder.

Meanwhile, I'm wondering if you are named after the Taconic orogeny.

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Taconic orogeny was a mountain building period that ended 440 million years ago and affected most of modern-day New England. A great mountain chain formed from eastern Canada down through what is now the Piedmont of the East coast of the United States."

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 04 Oct 13 - 07:45 PM

440 million years ago? No, I'm old but not that old. I picked the handle Taconicus because I live in the Taconic Mountains and I know a little Latin.

That's great you're playing it; I'd love to hear it. Do you think you could post a midi of it sometime?

P.S. - I'm writing a sequel about why I'm not really that sure.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 11:02 AM

Taconic Mountains, Taconic orogeny, Taconicus - there ya go!, as my brother in Wisconsin would say.

Now about that midi - you can find a midi of the song on benjamin tubb's public domain music site. Somebody posted a link above, I believe. If I made another midi, it would sound very like that, because it would be the same notes generated by the the same computertized sounds.

Tubb's accompaniment is slightly more interesting than the original. The original has a simple pattern repeated over and over, while Tubb's version has a simple pattern too, but there are rests in it.
=========
Funny the way everybody else has lost interest in this thread now that they can't argue. The only thing to do now is to pick up an instrument or start singing. Bummer!

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 01:14 PM

Oops. I was wrong about those rests in the accompaniment. They are in fact original.

However, J.P. Webster did not include a trap drum part, the way Benjamin Tubbs did.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 05 Oct 13 - 02:35 PM

I've now updated my research entitled The Mystery of Maud Irving with part three, in which I lay out my doubts about whether J. William Van Namee actually wrote the lyrics to I'll Twine 'Mid the Ringlets.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Lighter
Date: 05 Nov 13 - 06:55 PM

I've just gotten around to looking at this thread. Taconicus: brilliant work!

Gratuitous opinion on a trivial point: I doubt that "Maud Irving" was ever a binomial given name like "Mary Ann" or "Peggy Sue." I've read more pages of 19th C. books and newspapers than I'd like to recall, and I don't believe I've ever seen the surname "Irving" (as in "Washington Irving") - or any other surname - used as the second element of a feminine given name.

But more important is the fact that until now, the assertion that the song was printed in 1860 was hardly more than a rumor. It's also interesting to see the original melody.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 10:52 AM

Thanks, Lighter.

E.g.
Maud Irving Kane Cassidy (1879 - 1974)

Parents:
Cornelius VanSchelluyne Kane (1846 - 1913)
Eveleen Trowbridge Dayton (1845 - 1932)

Given name: Maud Irving

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=30882212

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 12:44 PM

These given names that seem illogical may have been more common in the past.
I have one, for a great grandfather. It is on my birth certificate.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 03:57 PM

Nice research: striking but unpersuasive.

"Irving" in the example doesn't look like part of a binomial. One would expect to see it on the gravestone there if "Maud Irving" was a unit like "Mary Ann" or "Peggy Sue."

It's significant too that Maud Irving Kane seems to be the only "Maud Irving X" known anywhere. There are zillions of "Mary Anns" and "Peggy Sues," however.

I doubt anyone in 1860 would have assumed that "Maud Irving" on sheet music was a two-part given name rather than a full personal name any more than they would today.

"Willie," however, as in "Willie Ware" was indeed a female name or nickname, short for "Wilhelmina."

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Nov 13 - 09:45 PM

Missed this when MtheGM asked about the parody, but I'll add my version for completeness:

"My flower of the wildwood is (long) and she's tall
It it weren't for her Adam's apple she'd have no shape at all.
I can still see her standing underneath the trees,
Tying knots in her stockings to look like she's got knees"


I 'think' heard this 'somewhere' in Kansas before 1975. It adds little to the history of the original, but merely shows how minds work...

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 08 Nov 13 - 01:11 AM

Thanks, Bill. Any more on this parody version. To put in date context, I can state definitively having heard it sung by Pete Sayers at the first Cambridge Folk Festival in 1965. He was an English country singer who had travelled much in the US, ('[he]was a bluegrass musician and the first Englishman to appear at the Grand Ole Opry.': from the wikipedia entry on his daughter Goldie Sayers, who is a distinguished javelin thrower), where I suspect he would have learned this version. Can anyone confirm this, I wonder?

~M~

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:33 AM

Here's a possibility: Could the "pale aronatus" refer to the white variety of Anemone coronaria? This is one of the colors of the "poppy anemone" that is a wildflower. (They also have blue, red, and pink kinds, too.) The white type has white petals, (pale). and a bluish center. Sometimes the blue color even extends outward a bit into the petals themselves. Very pretty, and it is a wildflower that grows in fields and meadows. Maybe "aronatus" could actually be anemone. Just a thought...

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 10:41 AM

At this point I'm guessing that "aronatus" was Van Namee's completely muddled recollection of something we'll probably never guess at.

He may have just made it up, of course, to fit the line, but that would have been a little weird.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 20 Jan 14 - 12:30 PM

It is doubtful that the author would have known the specific name of the plant, A. coronaria. It is a Mediterranean species, but has been spread widely by gardeners. I don't know how common it was with gardeners in 1860.
It is not an American wildflower, where other species of the genus are often called "windflowers."

(Species are classified by leaf, stamen, bract, achene, sepal and petal, characteristics and not by color.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 12:58 AM

Gardening author Ed Hume suggests the aronia. Others have suggested Amaranthus. I sing "the pale amaranthus and the hyssop so blue" because it sounds good, seems to fit, and the pale amaranthus is a wild flower, and so is the hyssop which can be "so blue." However, the most probable origin of the aronatus is that it's a mondegreen or was simply made up to fit the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jan 14 - 09:23 AM

I like your amaranthus and hyssop, Taconicus. They are real plants, and so you don't have to explain to the audience about the mythical aronatus every time you sing the song.

Songs should make sense on their own.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Apr 14 - 11:19 PM

Since it looks like this thread is back to trying to make botanical sense out of the lyrics, then as noted some yrs back, if you accept that we're talking about wild roses and lily of the valley (not daylilies!), all below are common wildflowers or English ornamentals and of a size suitable for entwining in a girl's hair, too.

I'll entwine and co-mingle my raven black hair
With the roses so red and the lilies so fair
And the myrtle so bright with its emerald hue
The pale angelica and violets so blue.

(NB: ordinarily, you accent the second syllable of Angelica, but switch to the third and all is resolved.)

John Hempel

Subject: Have I found the Wildwood Flower "Aronatus"?
From: Taconicus
Date: 10 Sep 15 - 10:37 PM

Have I found the fabled, long-lost "aronatus" of the song?

Botanically a type of tulip, it's a (now) rare blue-eyed American wildflower with the scientific name "Humilis Alba Coerulea Oculata." I know of no other flower, let alone a wildflower, that matches the description. (Check the photo links below.)

"…and the pale aronatus with eyes of bright blue."

Humilis: small, humble, obscure.
Alba: white.
Coerulea: cerulean (azure, sky-blue).
Oculata: having eyes; catching the eye.

Humilis Alba Coerulea Oculata (photo)

Description from a seed catalog.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 07:51 AM

The looks fit the bill, but the name is nothing like.

It's a beautiful flower, Taconicus. Thanks for the links.

I wonder where it's found.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 08:48 AM

Lovely find. It could well be the flower VN had in mind.

But why "aronatus"? We still haven't a clue.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 10:28 AM

True, the scientific name doesn't match "Aronatus," but then I don't think "Humilis Alba Coerulea Oculata" would have fit very well into the song lyrics.

If this is actually the flower referred to in the original lyrics (as I now think at least 50% likely), "aronatus" would likely have been a local appellation. If so, it seems to have a Latin derivation, meaning roughly "born of the plow" or "born of a plowed field." That could have fit a flower that appeared in fields shortly after they were plowed in the spring. It could also fit a flower that appeared at about the time of spring plowing and planting. And that would make sense in this case, since botanically this is a wildflower tulip, which blooms only in the springtime.

Even though there is no written record of this particular flower being called the aronatus, since I now know there actually is a real flower that matches the original lyrics I feel better about using the word "aronatus" in the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 12:20 PM

> meaning roughly "born of the plow" or "born of a plowed field." That could have fit a flower that appeared in fields shortly after they were plowed in the spring.

True enough, but it remains a mystery as to why VN would use a name that seems to be recorded nowhere else in science or literature.

The evidence I can gather online indicates that "Humilis Alba..." is a cultivar, so I wonder how many could be found growing wild in the mid-nineteenth century.

But even if VN only saw them in a garden, he likely would have been impressed.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 01:32 PM

I agree. Incidentally, although you probably already know this, Cultivars aren't necessarily created through artificial breeding. Some occur naturally and are maintained under cultivation thereafter.

As for why the lyricist chose that name, it's probably just the name he heard when he saw the flower in 1850s and asked, "What is that?" Obviously, "aronatus" never caught on. The eventual common name that stuck was the more mundane "blue-eyed wildflower tulip" or just "blue-eyed tulip." Perhaps "aronatus" was a name used locally at the time that was never recorded, or perhaps he just made it up as a more "botanical" sounding name that would scan within the song. As you say, we'll probably never know. On the other hand, here we are 150 years later and we're still learning things, so who knows. Not every old botanical journal has yet been copied and indexed on Google books.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 11 Sep 15 - 06:35 PM

> Not every old botanical journal has yet been copied and indexed on Google books.

Very true, and not to quibble, but of it *was* a truly local name (rather than just someone's jumbled misrecollection of something else), it should still show up somewhere, particularly in the multiple volumes of the Dictionary of American Regional English, which lists many local names for flora and fauna.

In this case, of course, absence of evidence is not proof of absence, but if the name is authentic, its use must have been restricted to very few, very few, perhaps in Brooklyn or Riverside or in Namee's own family.

Your original guess that it's a misrecollection of "amaryllis" my be the best, in spite of the existence of Humilis....

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 12 Sep 15 - 01:23 AM

Was that my original guess? I don't recall that. I sometimes sing "amaranthus" but I don't have reason to think it was misremembered from anything in particular – how about "Oculatus"? I can decipher the Latin meaning or "aronatus" if it was supposed to mean something, but beyond that I don't know its origin.

Incidentally, there were many mentions of an "Alba Oculata" in botanical books of the period, described as "white with a blue eye," but that was a type of Phlox Drummondii. It's another possibility, though not a bright blue to my eye.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,JB3
Date: 09 Oct 15 - 10:43 AM

The version my Grandfather sang didn't include those flowers. His first verse;

I'll entwine and I'll mingle my raven-black hair
With the roses so red and the lilies so fair
And my eyes will outshine even stars in the blue
Said I, knowing not that my love was untrue

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Catamariner
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 05:39 PM

I agree, "aronatus" (meaning "plough-born") puts it into a spring timeframe and the botanical name for this tulip-family wildflower is literally white flower blue-eyed. Guessing this was commonly known as an aronatus and that the rarity of the flower caused us to mislay the common name in favor of "alba coerulea oculata." Pictures of it are a perfect match to the song ("I'll twine 'mid the ringlets," not the mingled/mangled Carter family version "Wildwood flower").

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Catamariner
Date: 30 Dec 15 - 06:12 PM

Argh. Should be "aranatus" -- aratrum is a human-powered plough called an "ard." Arrrrrrd.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 31 Dec 15 - 01:16 AM

It may be that not all mid-19th century American amateur backwoods "flower namers" were as meticulous with Latin as you are, Catamariner. Someone may have taken "aro" (basic first-person singular present form of "to plow") and "natus" (basic nominative singular perfect participle of "born/spontaneously produced") and just stuck them together. As far as we know, the word never made it into any published botanical work.

— the word in the sheet music —

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,Reynardine
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 12:21 AM

I'd add that I have acquired a flowering vine, volunteering all over S.E. U.S. Zones 10 and 9, and possibly 8b, Antigonon leptospermum, one of whose common names is coralita. Normally it's a hot, shocking pink, but white and blush varieties exist. Not sure it's the right flower, but it fits the meter and is easily twined.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: leeneia
Date: 01 Sep 18 - 06:53 PM

Yes, as Taconicus showed, "aronatus" was the original word. We shall probably never know what flower it was or if the composer actually meant that word.

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: Taconicus
Date: 19 Nov 21 - 11:33 AM

I'm glad I was able to sing this at the recent Mudcat "singaround." I sing all the verses but I sing the third verse ("I'll think of him never...") last and I change "the frail wildwood flower" to "his frail wildwood flower" to correspond with "he called me his flower" of the previous verse, and because I think it's more emotionally effective that way ("this frail wildwood flower" would also work; either is better, I think, than "the").

Subject: RE: Origins: Wildwood Flower / I'll Twine 'Mid the ...
From: GUEST,Priscilla King
Date: 31 Mar 24 - 08:20 PM

The Carters performed in Texas, too. They were Virginians, and their heirs still are, but other places can claim the first broadcast or recording of some of their songs.