Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 10:03 PM

Angel_(Saggy_song)

Angel_with lyrics

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=shorty

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: meself
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 08:18 PM

This thread goes back to 2001 - and I still haven't heard the recording in question. Chances are I never will. What a deprived life I lead ... !

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,sandygram
Date: 07 Jul 18 - 07:30 PM

I just heard the rip off version. Hate it!

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 07:36 PM

Two things.........

First, there is a group called "Nickle Creek".....young kids doing a "newgrass" and bluegrass and trad kinda' thing. Hard to describe but they are simply unbelievable musicians.....you have to hear them to believe it, best thing around for my money. They grew up in the "tradition" and were influenced by a lot of pop-rock too as well as classical music. They do an upbeat and almost rap-like version of "The Fox" with great instrumental stuff going on and all, but delivered quickly. Halfway through it they stick in the first verse of "Subterranean Homesick Blues." Then, it's back to "The Fox." It's fantastic, but I wondered how much it cost them. They were on the Austin City Limits with Dolly Parton...if it comes around again where you are, check it out.

Second........Mark, for a different perspective on the copyright issue that gels more with old farts like us, read kytrad's (Jean Ritchie) last post --8 November @ 6:27PM on THIS THREAD.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 05:58 PM

Just an amusing remark, SharonA--here's another--telling you that your songs sound like something that you'd hear on Broadway is not necessarily a compliment, not these days, anyway--

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 08 Nov 01 - 09:37 AM

KB. I don't think the issue here is whether snippets of previously written music are being re-used. It is a matter of integrity. Re-use is fine, but giving credit to source is not theft while claiming the credit for oneself is. When there are big bucks to be made (as in this case) the author is entitled to a share, for their work. The writer should not have to chase his share, it should be offered.

It would appear that an amicable solution was found in this case. Someone with less clout than Chip Taylor may have got less than the champagne and fat cheque treatment. In which case Shaggy may have been better known as Shoddy.

The matter of copyright, does not exclude sharing. Most writers feel honoured and flattered if others wish to perform their material, and are happy to allow it. They are still entitled to credit for their work, though.

Brian

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 11:23 AM

I quite like the Shaggy record. And I'm afraid I like the idea of using familiar snippets in new combinations. Folk is full of it (intentional and unintentional)& it can be a really powerful tool. Do we really have to invent something totally new all the time - what about building & re-using?
I'm not sure I'm all that in favour of copyrighting songs anyway. I like sharing music. (but then again I don't make a living from writing & I'd probably have a different perspective if I did.....)
Kris

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: SharonA
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 10:54 AM

Fiver says, "SharonA, you're a folkie, the tastes of the pop music audience aren't ever going to make sense to you-- "

He don't know me vewwy well, do he?

Fiver, sometime when you've got the time, check out the songs I've parodied for the "Song Challenge!" threads; there you'll find far more popular songs than folk songs, because those are what I'm more familiar with. I'm told all the time that the songs I write sound like something one would hear on Broadway; that's not exactly folk music!! While I'm certainly interested in the genre, I'd have to call myself an ersatz folkie.

The thing is, the popular music that I enjoy is not "trance" music (as Mark so accurately calls it) or rap. I'll tell you one thing that "makes sense" to me: my observation is that the popular music of each generation invariably irritates the members of the previous generations, and I have no doubt that that is intentional and that it is done in order to generate sales.

I'd have to call myself a curmudgeon, too! :^)

Sharon

P.S. – I'd interpreted the quote "my son Chris said 'he's cool dad' and thirteen million albums later . . ." to mean that Taylor later found out that Shaggy's not so cool, and that Taylor's not so well compensated as he should have been.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 07 Nov 01 - 09:54 AM

I heard this song too (they played it all the time in the gym for a while) and wondered about it. I know it's a matter of taste - I don't care for rap AT ALL, but I found "Shaggy's" version to be revolting. I liked the Merrilee Rush version. I guess "Angel of the Morning" is kind of dated now - having unmarried sex isn't the big deal it used to be and I suppose that's what it's about, but I still think it's a great song. Personally if I had written it and had to give permission for somebody like "Shaggy" to use it I'd have to be pretty financially desperate in order for me to give permission.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 10:24 PM

Wendall, I agree with you up to a point. But there is a distinction between writing a parody to a song that's in the public domain, and re-recording or revising a song with a registered copyright without obtaining permission. Whenever you hear a "cover" of an earlier song (like Art Garfunkel doing "I Only Have Eyes for You" or Willie Nelson doing "Stardust"), it's a pretty safe bet that there was prior permission from the original copyright owner, and compensation as well. Usually, the copyright owner will be paid royalties, unless he or she transfers all rights to the song. (I'm still getting a few bucks--literally!--a year in royalties for one of my songs that was recorded by children's musician Dan Crow.)

My concern in this case is that Shaggy basically stole the song and recorded another one using substantial parts of the original (not just a couple of chords), and then, apparently as an afterthought, paid Chip Taylor "a lot of money" (in Shaggy's words). If Chip Taylor is really satisfied with the arrangement, then I can't really protest, except to say that old-fashioned courtesy would dictate that Chip be acknowledged on Shaggy's album (sorry--CD, I'm dating myself!) and/or website. But old-fashioned courtesy is, sadly, old-fashioned. The principles of copyright and protection of intellectual property, in my opinion, aren't old-fashioned at all.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:47 PM

This line, quoted from Chip himself, tells a different story--'My attorney told me not to let him do it but I asked my son if he'd heard this guy called Shaggy? I liked the version, my son Chris said 'he's cool dad' and thirteen million albums later . . ."

I suppose we could call him and ask him--anyone got his number? Meanwhile, SharonA, you're a folkie, the tastes of the pop music audience aren't ever going to make sense to you--

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: wendall2
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:42 PM

Isn't it all part of 'the folk process'? To re-write songs fitting the purpose of the person telling the story? While sampling others' music is not to my taste I've a good friend who wrote a parody to 'The Wearin' o' the Green' called 'The Smokin' o' the Green'. As soon as I heard it I encouraged him to have the lyrics copywritten as it was original and hilarious. He's done so. The point is that this has been going on for centuries...how many sets of lyrics have we heard to Greensleeves? I've heard at least 1/2 dozen. Would venture maybe the problem is that the original and other versions of this particular song are fresh in our memories and maybe we resent the intrusion of a generational difference in approach to pop music. I don't recall either Hal David or Burt Bacharach squawking when some 80s group did a version of 'Always Something There to Remind Me'? Great songs never die and will continue to be upgraded to the pop culture of the day. Even the Beatles were just warmed over Elvis and Little Richard early on. Don't even get me started on the 'British Invasion' stuff. So, rather than resent these artists, think of the valuable punk points the teacher got from his students when he pointed out the fact that the song had been recorded years ago? I can recall one time when my nephews were going through a Hendrix phase. I mentioned he'd recorded Johnny B. Goode on a live album. They laughed derisively. Then rented a video of his life story. We were watching it together when some footage was shown of him playing the whole song. They both looked at me with newfound respect and have deferred to me in matters of music ever since. Ah, it's good to be the King! In a related story my son hadn't ever heard James Brown beyond seeing him on TV and hearing 'I Feel Good' from a commercial a while back. We sat down and listened to a cd and he kept saying, "Dad...this totally rules" over and over. He started walking around saying things like, "Hey, put some funk in your junk!" Turned all his buddies onto JB and they all went promptly to Napster and downloaded evry JB song they could find. I'll admit it chapped my behind a bit when I heard the song in question. Not because it was a rip-off, but because it was so mediocre. One can't give respect to a lack of genuine creativity, but it brings to mind something a songwriter friend of mine once said..."there's only been 4 or 5 songs ever written...we just keep recycling the same chords." Or Keith Richards, "Chuck Berry wrote all the Rock and Roll songs..." I'm sure Messers Taylor and Miller worked out equitable compensation with as much as they know of the mechanics of the music biz. Probably, why Shaggy referred to S.M. as an A*****e...he didn't get him as cheaply as he'd figured. S.M. probably knew the numbers and that the cd couldn't be released w/o his consent unless the sample was removed not to mention the expense of re-doing the artwork, re-mastering, etc. So, he drove a hard bargain and worried about what Shaggy would think all the way to the bank.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 07:11 PM

Sharon, I think the reason people who buy and listen to this music aren't driven insane by it may have something to do with the chemical makeup of their brain while they're listening. There's a reason why one of the popular styles of music today (it even has a button on my Casio keyboard) is called "trance"! (Of course, we had acid rock, so who are we to complain?)

Regarding compensation of songwriters, my take from reading between the lines is closer to Sharon's than Fiver's: I would be very surprised if Chip Taylor is actually getting royalties from "Angel". The history of music publishing is full of stories of people who were paid a flat (and often meager) sum for the rights to a song that went on to earn fortunes, which the writer never saw. I'm lucky....my songs are never going to make any real money, so nobody's stolen them. At least, not as far as I know...

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: SharonA
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 06:11 PM

Well, Fiver, it sounded from GUEST's earlier quote that Shaggy ripped off Taylor and then, when he was forced to compensate the writer, got Taylor liquored up and paid him a lump sum (a fair sum? It doesn't say). Am I mistaken?

Okay, the money factor explains why some songwriters allow the "ripping off" to continue, but I still don't understand why it sells! I can't imaging "sampling" the 2-chord "Ventura Highway", making the music even more boring while expecting people NOT to be driven insane by the endless repetition of it! BTW, GUEST, I appreciate your putting the word "song" in quotation marks in this context!!!!

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 06 Nov 01 - 12:17 PM

SharonA,

Songwriters like it when people cover their songs, because they get paid royalties, which is what they live off of, so I don't see why it's a rip off--I'll bet that Taylor made more money off the Shaggy version than he did off any of the others--he only gets a few cents for each record, but multiply a few pennies by 13 million--nice way to get ripped off!

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 11:19 PM

Best version I've ever heard of "Angel" was by Chip Taylor himself. Just him and an acoustic guitar on a radio show in Toronto. What a wonderful voice, much slowert than either the Merillee Rush or Juice Newton version. Really sold the song.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 09:46 PM

Be glad you haven't heard Janet Jackson's new "song"---it samples America's "Ventura Highway" and Erik Satie's Gymnopedie No.1.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Nov 01 - 06:18 PM

Yes, Mark, it bothers me, too, and I don't really care if Shaggy got away with his rip-off by shoveling money at the people whose creation he stole. It bothers me just to listen to it.

This seems to be a popular trend in rap and R&B: I've heard any number of recent songs that use bits and pieces of the instrumental arrangements of classic pop music of twenty or thirty years ago... and I find the practice to be incredibly annoying. The other night I was shopping to the tune of the opening bars of Gladys Knight's "Neither One of Us Wants to Be the First to Say Goodbye" repeated over and over again, while some indistinguishable R&B female vocalist warbled an unmemorable lyric over and over again. By the end of the song, I was ready to rip out the stuffing of every chair in the furniture section of the store.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 07:12 PM

The Bratling doesn't believe me when I tell her I knew it years ago.... She refuses to accept that someone else recorded it and that the words are different. Oh the conviction of youth!

LTS

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 05:53 PM

From the website iowrock.com's Vapour Trails: Venues and the Artists Who Play Them says in it's article "Chip Taylor. The Greys, Brighton, UK. 28/8/01: It Don't Get Any Better Than This" written by Mike Plumbley says:

And then a delight in the first set was when PP Arnold took to the small stage. Last time I heard of PP Arnold was way back when she was playing the seaside disco's with the Nice and she pops up on Chip Taylor's new album and comes to sing the song she covered back in the sixties, Chip Taylor's 'Angel of the Morning'.

Chip Taylor will mention in his introduction that he'd got a rap version of it from an artist asking to cover the song. 'My attorney told me not to let him do it but I asked my son if he'd heard this guy called Shaggy? I liked the version, my son Chris said 'he's cool dad' and thirteen million albums later . . .'

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 03:05 PM

OK, if Shaggy says Chip's happy, I guess I'm happy. It would be interesting to hear Chip's side of the story. Thanks, GUEST.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 01:25 PM

From nme.com's article Shaggy's J-Lo End Theory:

Shaggy also spoke to NME.COM about the trouble he had over his album track 'Angel', which samples Steve Miller's 'The Joker' and borrows lyrically from the song 'Angel Of The Morning', which was recorded by Juice Newton in 1981.

"The original writer of 'Angel Of The Morning' [Chip Taylor, who also wrote 'Wild Thing'], came to my house. We sat down and had some champagne and he was happy. I just gave him a lot of money. Steve Miller, he was being an ass, but at the end of the day I gave him some money, he's alright."

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 12:47 PM

This was being played over here back in June. I was doing supply cover at the start of an English lesson when two girls started singing the verse and I asked where they had heard it. I then sang them the verse of the original version. They were quite impressed!!

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 02:55 AM

It certaimly bothers my 'peeps'.

Whatever they are?

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 04 Nov 01 - 01:33 AM

Here is the chorus and first verse of Shaggy's song called "Angel" as listed on his website. There is no author listed for the song.

Angel

Chorus

Girl you're my angel, you're my darling angel
Closer than my peeps you are to me, baby
Shorty you're my angel, you're my darling angel
Girl you are my friend when I'm in need, lady

Verse 1

Life a one big party when you're still young
But who's gonna have your back when it's still done
It's all good when you live to have pure fun
Can't be a fool son
What about the long run
Looking back shorty always a mention
Say me not giving her much attention
She was there through my incarceration
Wanna show the nation
My appreciation

The chorus is done to the exact tune of the lines

Just call me angel of the morning, angel
Just touch my cheek before you leave me, baby

from "Angel of the Morning". The verse is, obviously, different.

I hate to sound like the music police, but a song theft like this (if that's what it is) really bugs me. Especially because Shaggy is making huge piles of money from the song. Does it bother anybody else?

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,lamarca (cookieless again)
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 10:10 PM

Gee, and I always thought Juice was singing an anthem for dental hygeine:

Just call me angel of the morning, baby
Just brush your teeth before you leave me...

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 09:20 PM

"Peeps", "Homies", "Paizans"...all the same meaning.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 06:29 AM

Mrs Skipjack, who is more given to popular music, says that this Shagbert chap sings a line

"Closer than my peeps you are to me"

I don't think he is alluding to an unhealthily close relationship with the seventeenth century diarist, but I don't think he makes a bad hand of it. To be honest, I found Juice's version a bit shrill.

Mrs Skipjack is in fact the angel of the morning, as she's making me a nice cup of real coffee.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 04:01 AM

The thing that has ben annoying me, is trying to reconcile the words in this to the original.

In this version, what are they singing in the line afer the 'angel' bit?

The original was, I think, 'just touch my cheek before you leave'?

I can't make out at all what they are singing in this one.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 03:52 AM

By the way, David, that was a great pickup, from very little information. Nice work!

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 03:49 AM

That's it, David. But my question remains. Did Chip Taylor (a/k/a James Wesley Voight, younger brother of actor Jon Voight), who wrote "Angel of the Morning", get any acknowledgement or payment for Shaggy's song "Angel"? As a sometime songwriter, I'd like to know.

Subject: RE: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: GUEST,David in Pontyclun(Cardiff)(Wales)(UK)(Europ
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 02:26 AM

It can only have been "ANGEL" - From the one and only "SHAGGY" - remember "Oh Carolina" or "Mr Bombastic" or more recently "It wasn't me" ? - go to www.shaggyonline.com for more info.

Subject: Pop query-'Angel of the Morning' ripoff?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 03 Nov 01 - 01:38 AM

This has been bugging me for a few weeks, and maybe somebody knows the answer. My office staff listen to one of the pop radio stations in town, and they've been playing a song whose chorus goes, "Oh, you're my angel, you're my darlin', baby..." with the precise tune of "Angel of the Morning" (Merrilee Rush and the Turnabouts, 1968, Juice Newton, 1981). I asked my staff and they said it's a national band, not a local Hawaiian one. This sounds to me like a blatant ripoff of somebody else's song, not even a cover. (The verse is kind of a rap/hip-hop/something, not even close to the original.) Does anybody know anything about this? Does Chip Taylor know about this? I'm curious.

Aloha,
Mark