What if a pacificist was on flight 93?

Subject: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,patriotlady
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 10:24 AM

The Peaceful Times September 11, 2001 All The News That Fits Our Juvenile World View

"Let's Talk!" Today while three airliners crashed into buildings in New York and Washington DC, killing untold numbers of people, one tragedy was averted thanks to an alert pacifist who happened to be on board another hijacked plane. Potentially thousands of lives were saved when a compassionate passenger on Flight 93 opened a dialog with terrorists who moments earlier had hijacked the plane. After the hijackers had gained control of the plane and allegedly killed the pilots and flight attendants, Robb Weamer called his wife on his cell phone.

"I told her I knew something was up because the freedom fighters were moving about the cabin and the pilot had not yet said it was OK to move about the cabin. I then became concerned that other rules might be broken, like somebody might light up a cigarette and endanger our health with secondhand smoke."

Robb Weamer approached what he calls the 'misunderstood immigrants' just as the plane was entering Washington D.C. airspace.

"I climbed over several dead bodies and entered the cockpit. I looked one of the men in the eye and said, "Let's Talk". Wife Becomes Concerned Robb's wife Lisa says she became concerned when the cell-phone broke up after she heard Robb say "Let's Talk" to the ersatz pilots. "This was one of Robb's favorite expressions," she explained, "and it always meant: Watch out! Sensitive discussions to follow! I was just afraid that under pressure Robb might forget that these men were guests in our country and treat them rudely."

Says Robb: "I have had a lot of experience dealing with underprivileged people in America, so I was ready for this. I explained to the gentlemen that we had more to unite us than divide us. Similar to Afghanistan, women in America are paid less than men. We also have a dangerous religious right which tries to de-fund art projects."

As the plane moved into Washington, DC airspace, Weamer, a member of the Sierra Club, quickly pointed out the negative environmental impact of a jet plane full of passengers crashing into a government building. The hijackers seemed receptive and it occurred to Weamer that this might have been the first time an American had tried to communicate from the heart with his brothers from the Middle East.

"What about Israel and Zionism?" Asked the hijacker, as the White House grew larger on the windshield. Robb began to fear the worst.

Robb had to think fast. "Like Zionism, we have Conservatism here in America. But we let the conservatives make their money and they leave us alone. Some of it even trickles down to us when they pay high tuitions for their kids at liberal arts colleges."

"So if we accept Israel, maybe we will get some of the loot? We will be able to feed our children and live in peace and harmony?... But what about the virgins we were promised?" Robb was temporarily stumped. Time was running out. Then he remembered his idol, Bill Clinton. "I can get you into the Democratic party", Robb blurted out," and introduce you to Bill Clinton. He can get you all the virgins you want!"...The hijacker suddenly leaned on the joystick.

Rough Landing

The errant pilot barely managed to land the plane safely on the south lawn of the White House as passengers and the other hijackers embraced. They were still arm in arm as they deplaned singing "We Are the World".

Robb later reflected on his adventure. "I'm just glad nobody on the plane had a gun. There were a lot of uptight businessmen on the plane, a lot of tension; somebody might have become an innocent victim of gun crime."

Did Robb have any final words for the hijackers?

"Sure do!" says Robb, "Next time you take flight training, pay a little more attention to the unit on landing the plane. That landing, quite frankly, stunk!"

Hijackers and passengers, many still hugging, shared a final laugh together before heading off to the cars waiting to take them home.

Copyright © 2001 Rick Derer. All Rights Reserved.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 10:28 AM

is this an erroneous cross-posting from soc.history.what-if? Oh no, I see they debark the plane singing. That obviously makes this a musical thread.

Thanks, patriotlady.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 10:29 AM

Hilarious.....

A

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: SharonA
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 10:32 AM

Ah hahahahaha!!! I love it!!!

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 11:10 AM

Ho! Ho! Ho!

I think the word "pacifist" might be getting a wrong interpretation here. I have known pacifists, and most of them are quite capable of defending themselves in an emergency situation or a personal altercation with someone (physical, I mean).

Generally speaking, a pacifist is someone who avoids deliberately planning future organized violence as a normal matter of public policy...who seeks peaceful solutions first in disputes, and if at all possible...who avoids vengeance and retaliation for the sake of vengeance alone, just so he can feel better about "getting even".

But definitely NOT someone who refuses to act when action is required...or who is incapable of self-defence.

Read Joan Baez's autobiography for further info on that. She's a pacifist, but she's not helpless, nor incapable of tough-mindedness and determined action.

Then, in the ultimate sense of pacifism, there is the viewpoint that this physical life is just one brief passage in the eternal life of a soul that cannot die, so why fear death at all? But that's a viewpoint known only to a tiny minority of people...a few saints...so I don't think it's liable to be given a moment's consideration by most people. Sheer nonsense, right? :-)

Even given that view, however, it would still be seen as more appropriate to use force to resist the actions of a few hijackers in order to save the lives of many innocent people...rather than just passively observing the whole thing play itself out.

Nevertheless, very funny story you posted there.

- LH

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 11:35 AM

Clever.

DougR

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Grab
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 01:44 PM

Someone on here is bound to object to it. But it gets my vote - excellent work Mr. Derer!

Graham.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 01:48 PM

Hehehehehehehehehehe!

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 01:49 PM

there were too many celphones and not enough plastic knives on that aircraft in my opinion ;-)

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 02:40 PM

I don't understand the "coincidental" similiarity of the two names. We all know that 'Todd Beamer' was the hero who was heard to say "Let's roll". Is Derer making a point here? Seems fairly tasteless.

On the other hand, I am somewhat literal so I'm willing to consider the similarities to be part of the fun.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 02:48 PM

Bodd Reamer would have been even more tasteless. Offended liberals everywhere should bombard this thread with emotional blackmail, demanding apologies from Mr. Derer, until it exceeds 150 posts and we are all utterly sick of hearing about it...

- LH

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 02:52 PM

Mr. Popular Politician

Mr. Popular Politician has been leadin the war on terrorism for three years now. tHe new ASBN America Strikes Back Network has the highest ratings. Afgahanistan is a shifting pile of rubble but Bin Laden is still at large.

He is slipping in the pols and does not want the Democrats to win the election. "Electing those bleeding hearts will surely bring this country to ruin" He says to his advisors.

"Sir, If we are going to win this one it will take some more civilian causalties. We don't see how collateral damage can be avoided. Will you authorize the use of Nuclear Weapons?"

The presidents victory was assured when 20 megaton bombs hit the following enemy cities, New York, Boston, Hartford and Miami.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Larry124
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 02:54 PM

Maybe there WAS a pacifist on the plane. And, perhaps an American who sympathizes with the Palestinians and opposes Israeli policy. A Liberal. A conservative. A child. Holders of all kinds of opinions. All gone now. They had no right to live according to the terrorists and those who support them. The folks on that aircraft were not entitled to life and liberty. That's why there's nothing to negotiate. The positions are irreconcilable and mutually exclusive. Sometimes, as with the Nazi's, life and history are like that.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:13 PM

Yes, indeed, this is all because of Pacificists! The Hijackers hate us because of the Amish Missonaries wreaking havok on their faith, Quaker oil magnets despoling the lands, Menonite armies in Saudi Arbia.., Yup... thank God there weren't pacifisists on those flights or we'd all be fucked!
(sounds of snoring...)
Larry

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM

Agreed, Larry. There is nothing more dangerous to the general status quo....or the status quo of generals...than a pacifist. Dangerous buggers. Gotta find a way to exterminate the lot of 'em...

yadda, yadda, yadda...

- LH

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:37 PM

I took the story to be some sort of weird, senseless humour, with no point of view and no basis in reality. So I added some of my own. Was I wrong on either count? Both?

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Pacifist
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:55 PM

Larry we Brits beat the Nazis and the Fascists. The world would a better place if your electoral system enabled you to elect a leader. Last time round Bushes brother decided it, and for several times before it was decided by where the big money was. The snag is that the rest of the world has to put up with the results of your system. How many coutntries can you name that the USA hasn't screwed up or worse for the benefit of your big money boy's or rich families. Forget the twin towers - thank God that someone had the good sense to kill Kennedy.

I use this site to look at threads about music. Get your heads out of your butts and find somewhere else to talk about the war. America didn't worry about terrorism when they sponsored it in Ireland and were only interested in Lockerbie, where Half a town was devastated not just a couple of almost empty offices, because it gave them an excuse to attack the bad guy they hated at the time.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 03:55 PM

You pretty much nailed it, IMO, JacktS, except I don't think there was any humour in it, senseless or otherwise.

Let's go to the other extreme, for the fundementalists in this country and pose the question, "What if Jesus, the Pacifist had been on board?" Don't answer that, it is rhetorical sarcasm. Same goes for "What if Dubya had been on that plane." "What if" is a pointless exercise, IMO.

Doncha just love it when you live in a country which denigrates its citizens who would truly like to live in peace and who love the planet and hug the trees? IMO, those who ridicule such are frightened to look within their own souls to see what is missing.

kat

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Wesley
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 04:18 PM

Guest,Pacifist - You are suffering under two delusions - first - that the British defeated the Nazis { you must admit that the Yanks helped just a little } and that you have any right to call yourself a "Pacifist" and then say " Thank God someone had the good sense to kill Kennedy".

Your response please ?

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Pacifist
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 04:46 PM

OK Wesley your lads helped a bit - towards the end and your country needed a bit of help from the British Commonwealth in other areas of the war - it may have been a good payoff in the longer term.

As I recall, when I was a young man, there was a thing called the Cuban missile crisis which nearly got us all killed when Kennedy felt that it alright to have missile bases on the Russian border but just a tad rich if the Ruskies had them anywhere near as close to you. With that attitude to world affairs it probably saved more lives. He went - other people lived to have full and satisfying lives (including his widow - why mourn when you can get your rocks off with a dodgy Greek shipping millionaire).

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Wesley
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 05:14 PM

I'll repeat my question. Why do you call yourself a "Pacifist" and then say "Thank God someone had the good sense to kill Kennedy"

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Pacifist
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 05:38 PM

He was a self seeking murderer - and to bring a musical theme to our discussion I recall in the sixties, listening to country Joe McDonald singing a song that began "Come on all of you big strong men, Uncle Sam needs your help again." I believe that it refered to a jam Uncle Sam had got himself involved in in a little known tourist spot known as Vietnam.

How many people did that kill? I will ask you to reply to what I had written in my earlier post.

At some point their are people who have to die for the greatr good of the many.

Your country at the moment is killing many innocent people in the hope of killing the one whom they hold responsible for a horrendous crime.

It that so much different from my view.

I am a pacifist because I believe that Winston Churchill was right when said that "Jaw jaw is better than war war". Given your inability to advance an arguement coupled with your country's self centred foreign policies I should perhaps explains that it means the it better to reach a settlement to a problem by discussion, reasoning, and argument than kill people.

Live in peace

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Wesley
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 05:56 PM

You don't seem to understand my point. I'm trying to understand your definition of the word "Pacifist". One of us - perhaps me - doesn't understand what a pacifist is - or what they stand for. I wish I could continue this but I post at work and it's time to go home. Please give me your definition of pacifist and explain to me why a pacifist would enjoy the death of another human. I don't have my dictionary handy. Thanks and have a great weekend.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 06:11 PM

Pacifist

The road from Stalingrad to Berlin was 1600 mile long.

20 million Russians died along that road. Transported by General Motors trucks.

The Sea route from the Clyde to Murmansk was 3000 Miles.My grandfather died somewhere off the North Cape.

4 Members of my British Trade Union (MSF) died in the twin Towers.

A period of anti americanism and little england chauvenistics - we can do without.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Pacifist
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 06:24 PM

Shame

I post at home and pay for it myself. It surprises me that you can't reply from home.

I thought I had tried to explain my attitude. There will be other pacifists who will not agree with my view. It may be based on experience of life.

I still believe that there are individuals who have to die to save the rest. If it Helps I'm not comfortable with it - but on the other hand I don't think that I would have been comfortable had I been Victor Jara having his hands smashed by the butt of a rifle bought by the USA and then being killed along with many of his countrymen who supported a democratically elected govenment which your country did not like. Again I would ask you to defend your view that the good ol' US of A can go around treating the rest of the world as their backyard and tell it what to do. Lokk at the Tokyo treaty and your views on global warming.

Many people see your country as greedy and self absorbed. You don't seem to be able, not personally, but as a country to address that. We're all entitled to the resources and the wealth and to govern our courties without Uncle Sam coming in and Screwing things up.

I'll sign out this because your no longer at work, bored, nothing to do but wind me up and I,m at home it's bedtime, and I think I would be better off hugging my wife than arguing.

All the best,

enjoy being in your office Monday.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 07:15 PM

Now I am flumoxed... How our British "Pacisifist" friend believes that I am a chear leader for the US is beyond me. Is there another Larry here???? Also, I agree the US did a lot to encourage the war in Ireland... in aiding and abeting the BRITISH in continuing a war solely to keep NATO forces in a non alined nation. Well, I hope you have a good sleep and wake up with a refeshed mind, and ask yourself, my dear pacifist if the British soldier who blew Carol Ann Kelly's brains all over that Belfast street at point blank range, may have had some small part in the war in Ireland, or perhaps the Queen who gave a meddle to the British soldier who opened fire on a civil rights demostration on Bloody Sunday might have had some role in all this. If you truely wish to stand on the moral high ground and point a finger at this evil empire, maybe you might move to Scandinavia, or Tristam de Cuna (and not pay taxes to the Empire which owns it).
As far as music posts, folks here know I have contributed both traditional as well as contempory folk to the board, and speaking of board... never mind, I should not go their , have a nice pint for me, and perhaps thee may think on pacificism a while as well as history. Kennidy was likely murdered by the state for his intentions to get out of Viet Nam.
Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 07:22 PM

My uncle was clubbed by a cop who stopped him on the turnpike after he tried to HUG the trooper. He was charged with 'driving under the influence of Leo Buscaglia'.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 07:45 PM

Funny Art.

You know, I don't mean to disrupt the fascinating flow here, and I'm not trying to trivialize this (I love satire whether it skews my views OR the other guys') but I have a question:

Are there REALLY any independent pacifists kickin' around these days? I don't mean members of religious groups who COLLECTIVELY practice non violence. I doubt if I know one person who could not be provoked to physical action if the provoker knew what they were doing and pushed the right buttons.

In my youth I read of folks like Sgt. York, Ghandi, and certainly experienced Martin Luther King's effect on the world, but I still didn't have a clear definition of what "pacifism" really is. Is it simply someone who will die rather than raise their hand against someone else? It seems in many cases to be a carefully worked out (and effective) strategy, no more, no less.

During the Vietnam War I met several "conchies" who said they could not take another life, but as we talked more it always struck me that they'd have happily taken a poke at Nixon.

Just seems that pacifism may be more 'selective' than all-encompassing. Personally, I could never take a life because a politician told me I had to (under the guise of patriotism), but could easily end another's life if I saw them commiting an act that I personally saw as indefenceable (say raping someone).

Anyway, it just got me thinking.

Rick

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 07:52 PM

It takes a lot more courage to stand up for what one believes in without the use of force or violence than the other way around, GUEST who first posted to this thread, and anyone else who thinks that bit of cartoonish satire is funny. Ask anyone who marched with Martin Luther King, or any member of his family.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 10:10 PM

Well said, Carol, thanks!

Interesting points, Rick, perhaps it is selective more than most might want to admit?

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Nov 01 - 10:16 PM

I think GUEST original poster was making a valid point and took a bit of courage him/herself in sending it. It is a common and correct observance that Gandhi was successful in winning independence through primarilly non-violent means in an English colonial empire. Had that empire been German (or Belgian) things would not have gone any better than with the hijacked planes of 911.

As to the American baiter signed in as 'guest', he/she displays vituperation without accuracy or humor. Picking on our most recently assassinated President is merely attention-seeking bad taste. Check out 'Thirteen Days' if you're willing to go for a Yankee movie. I would be in the same logical fold as you if I used the Spice Girls as my example of English high culture.

Give War a Chance

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,faswilli2
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 01:47 AM

yep, pacifist, let bash the yanks tonight. Terrorists might crash into your backyard tomorrow. You should pray the Americans don't become agoraphobic, build, a wall around the country, and say to hell with the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 02:02 AM

There are many people who have used pacifist means to accomplish some pretty incredible things in the world. It's possible that those means might not work in every scenario. I don't know.

However, it doesn't make any more sense to me for someone to ridicule all pacifists the way the opening post does than for someone to ridicule all people who fight in wars.

There are heroes on both sides of this equation. It's no less small to ridicule pacifist heroes than it is to ridicule heroes who fight in wars. Many pacifists have paid the ultimate price and given their lives to make the world a better place. They deserve our respect as much as the people who lose their lives with a gun in their hand.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: John P
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 09:24 AM

Why all this confusion about the meaning of the word pacifist? Do you all really not know any pacifists? Get a clue, folks. Little Hawk cleared up the issue early on in this thread when he said:


"I think the word "pacifist" might be getting a wrong interpretation here. I have known pacifists, and most of them are quite capable of defending themselves in an emergency situation or a personal altercation with someone (physical, I mean).

Generally speaking, a pacifist is someone who avoids deliberately planning future organized violence as a normal matter of public policy...who seeks peaceful solutions first in disputes, and if at all possible...who avoids vengeance and retaliation for the sake of vengeance alone, just so he can feel better about "getting even".

But definitely NOT someone who refuses to act when action is required...or who is incapable of self-defence."

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Pacifist
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 01:46 PM

Faswilli2,

From the look of things America at the moment seems to be about to "build a wall round itself and ignore the rest of the world". Look at the reports of the meetings held by Blair both in the middle eastern countries bordering the area where the bombing is going on and the lack of support from their governments. Look at Europe and the way the political leaders there want more say in what happens before they will send in troops to die for no perceivable benefit to their country or the world. Public opinion in the UK is not as gung ho as our prime Minister makes out and there appear to be divisions developing between Blair, who has buzzed around the world looking for suport, and Bush who tends not to.

Apologies to those who are offended by the strength of my language but I strongly believe that the action taken over the Twin Towers attack will only breed further terrorists.

Inobu,

In what way do the killings you mention justify the deaths of innocent civilians by anyone's hands?

Gareth,

Not "little England chauvanistics" - more "Is what is happening doing any good" and point me to one time in the last 50 years where American intervention - usually with B52s has helped the civil population of the country attacked?

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 01:52 PM

I think you brought up some interesting points, Rick. Personally, I feel no ill will toward anyone who considers him/herself a pacifist. I would not want to have one serve as president of our country, however.

I guess it is not clear to me, thought, how a pacifist could feel justified in defending himself with violence against another person, when threatened, but refuses to defend his/her country and his/her fellow citizens when it is threatened by terrorists. DougR

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 02:38 PM

Not all are meant to fill that role, Doug, no matter whether they are a pacifist or not. Besides all of the support crew in the actual military, there are many more positions of support in civilian life, without which the military could not function.

It is also a matter of direct threat in a one on one whereas in a war even soldiers have wondered why they are trying to kill each other, which is told through many a story and folksong.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 02:55 PM

I think it strange that one minute we are beimg told that the US is against terrorists and it allows Gerry Adams to fund raise,
Oh sorry I forgot the terrorissts that tried to blow up the club area of Birmingham last week were the "real IRA".

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,BuggR
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 06:19 PM

DougR,

How close have you been to the action, how many men have you killed, when the moment comes could you do it? your attitudes are what makes many people fear America and hope you buld the wall. (Berlin took one down and foud that their neighbours were fun after all.)

I feel that CarolC gives hope to the internalionals who post that there is sentient life in the US.

Pray for peace

It is rememberance day tomorrow,

Remember those who have died - and try to question those who see the only solution to problems as more killing.

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 06:32 PM

Guest BuggR: I was in the U. S. Army and the Reserve, but not during wartime. Therefore, I have not been faced with that challenge. I would like to think that if I were, I could do so. I doubt most people know how they would react to combat until they are in it.

Obviously we do not share the same view on this subject. You have a right to your's, I to mine. I sincerely doubt that my "attitude" is responsible for anyone feeling one way or the other about America. I doubt that anybody cares what my "attitude" is about anything.

DougR

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 09:12 PM

There is a misconception about the term "Pacifist" I think. It's a very pro-active position and in the way that it was practiced by Martin Luther King and Mohandas Ghandi, it was a highly organized and disciplined way to handle violence. Ghandi referred to it as "soul force" or "Satyagraha". It involves non-violent "resistance". There are many ways to practice this. Some of them quite creative. It's an interesting historical note that most of the time it's been applied, it's been successful. It involves the same sacrifice of lives in the same way that conventional war does but creates a "post-war" environment that's more healthy. There are different ways to "fight" for one's country. Non-violent ways have not been employed on a US national level toward external aggressor yet.

India was successful in it's limited use when the British quit India under Ghandi's leadership. It certainly had a tremendous historical effect in the US under Dr. King.

If a pacifist would have been on that fatal flight and there were those enlightened enough to follow that path, who really knows what would have happened? If nothing else, under a pacifist position, the hi-jackers would not necessarilly have made it to the White House.

As to America, we live in a country that permits conscientious objection and that attests to our principles of freedom. Every country in the world has had it's share of insensitivity for other nations but the US has not exceeded that of Britain, China,Congo, Somalia, the former USSR or contemporary Russia, and certainly many of the Mid-east countries as well as in South America. No country is exempt in it's responsibility toward human rights and in this all have erred. Still, I'd rather live in America where human rights are valued, talked about and many Americans support groups like Amnesty International and the United Nations.

Frank

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 11:16 PM

Hi Pacificist... I was not using those inocents to justify any killing, rather, countering your accertion that the US is responcible for the war against Britain in Ireland, in point of fact the US backed the British program of keeping a war going in Ireland for the benifit of NATO. You should read a bit more carefully, and so should I, I notice there ARE to Larry's, one of whom is a bit more of a US appologist than I... still, I don't agree with you about Kennedy, I don't think we will ever know the man he was becoming, other than in the evidence that his brother Bobby became and for which he was murdered - perhaps by the same folks.
Cheers
One of the dangerous pacificist bastards, Larry (The InOBU one)

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 01 - 11:17 PM

Its late, I'm nackered, it should read TWO Larrys... off to snooze land... Larry

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 12:10 AM

Hi Doug. I'll try and answer your question.

I learned a LONG time ago that an articulate writer or speaker can use "facts" to support EITHER side of an issue. If they write or speak with passion as well, they can convince thousands (or millions I guess) of the absolute righteousness of their point of view. It makes for absolutely fascinating reading (has for three years on Mudcat for me) but is totally worthless (IMO) for divining 'truth'. If you feel a need to have an opinion on an issue, you can do it in two ways: Embrace the views of the most convincing speaker or writer OR do one hell of a lot of homework, collect as much pro and con information that SEEMS UNBIASED to you, and then fit yourself personally into the equation by asking yourself hard questions.

So MY truth about pacifism/war/patriotism/self-defence etc. is probably similar to how I'd deal with much less drastic issues.

If my repair guy tells me I gotta spend a thousand bucks to fix my car's defibrulated flunkenhammer, I'll probably do it, 'cause my own experience tells me he's done a good job in the past, and I believe he knows cars (much) better than I. If a football coach told me to block number 79, I'd do it for the same reason.....BUT if the baseball manager wanted me to bunt in a certain situation, I might question it, 'cause I've had a lot of experience with the game, and feel I might just understand strategies as well as him. Makes me a LOUSY team player, but I've known that for years.

If a politician said "We've gotta bomb those bastards back into their caves, to save our way of life", I wouldn't automatically see that as true. If I felt that my understanding of world events, or even simple logic was superior to his, you bet I'd question it. If I felt that he was trapped into a no-win position that neccessitated 'face saving', I'd sure sympathize, but would feel I had to make my decision on strictly personal evidence. By the way I'm not takin' a shot at Bush, I feel that Gore or Clinton or whoever would be just as powerless in the current situation. It just wouldn't mean that I had to be.

Back in thirty nine, Britain declared war on Germany, and my dad (at the ripe old age OF 39) enlisted the next day. I know he was an independant thinker 'cause that's what he taught me, and he obviously felt that Hitler's armies had to be stopped. Think I'd have done the same thing...but not because I was TOLD to by someone who's only REALLY defined qualification was ambition.

So for me it comes down to individual situations, and almost never, what OTHERS tell me the 'truth' is. Would I kill under certain circumstances? I imagine so. By the way, I'm also glad that the current Pres. is not a pacifist, but I'd also prefer if he didn't consult a Clergy written "holy" book for reality or logic. Seems to me that's what the other side is doing as well.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 01:12 AM

Thanks, Rick. Good food for thought.

DougR

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 02:26 AM

Rick, good reasoned stuff there.

BuggR, read the history. Men with little red stars built the wall along with its attedent automatic guns and minefields to stop their own people from find out what fun The Americans, Brits, West Germans etc. were.

Sledge

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: John P
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 09:15 AM

And now for the cynical viewpoint: President Bush's canididacy was strongly financially supported by people who sell cruise missiles and bombs to the US government. When we are at war they make a LOT more money than when we are not at war. Tomahawk cruise missles cost about $600,000.00 each.

John Peekstok

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 01:24 PM

There's probably some truth in virtually everyone's argument. That's what makes life so complicated.

- LH

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 02:24 PM

John: You think they didn't cover their bases by donating to Al's campaign too, John? They sure would have been stupid not to.

Rick: We may be poles apart, politically, but on this one thing I am sure we are much alike: neither of us are comfortable with authority figures. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: What if a pacificist was on flight 93?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Nov 01 - 04:39 PM

Doug, I even busted my GI Joe down to buck private!