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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 18 Dec 23 - 04:13 AM Jon, It's a mess. I'm not going to remember all of the details from when I dissected it (or when we, including you, might have participated in that dissection on Mudcat), but yes, the Rule #1 I follow is that everything after the narrative part should be treated with skepticism. It's worth repeating that the material was put together 50 years (!) after Harlow's sea service. It happened, too, after Harlow had been active in various concertizing activities at the height of the sea shanties craze of the mid-1920s. He's 70 years old and suddenly trying to put together a collection. Harlow's simple narrative of his sea experiences appears quite solid and makes The Making of a Sailor quite useful. However, he seems to have felt (compelled by exactly which forces at the start, I don't know) to take up the contemporary interest in chanties and build that into the tale. I imagine (just thinking here) that because Harlow knew a thing or two about chanties (which I do believe he did) he was either called on (by local folks on the sea shanties bandwagon) or felt inspired to pipe up during that time to add his voice to it all—which is nice to an extent, but he ended up overstepping the limits of what he could speak to with accuracy. I imagine that is why the publisher made him cut most of the chanty material in order to get Making of a Sailor published, to keep it a solid travel narrative. The narrative part in CAAS, as well, is problematic, even if less hodgepodge-y than the rest. I hint at it in the preceding posts: Did the chantyman, Brooks, *really* sing "Donkey Riding" in that way, or at all, back in 1876? "South Australia" and "Shenandoah" are two other examples of songs in that section which come to mind as looking iffy. Is the narrative a true account of when/what chanties occurred during the voyage, or has he used the voyage narrative-form as a shell in which to present all chanties of which he is in possession and he has fabricated what was actually sung because it seems close enough to what "could" have happened? I'm grateful to have the work, but, like Hugill (for whom I'm also grateful), the work blurs the author's experience with his research many years later. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Lighter Date: 17 Dec 23 - 10:03 AM Gibb, I wonder if you share my perceptions that 1. "Chanteying Aboard American Ships" isn't in finished form, despite its (welcome) book publication. The narrative part, IIRC, gives out midway through, to be followed by miscellaneous songs from all over. 2. Many of Harlow's texts seem "literary," in the Davis & Tozer tradition, as though he were trying to fill out or improve songs he'd partly forgotten. 3. Not all his versions are trustworthy. It's easy for us trained researchers to underestimate non-scholars' innocently cavalier attitude toward their material. Harlow undoubtedly felt that any tinkering he may have done was not only harmless but beneficial. The words of chanteys varied anyway, right? I see the book as more of an enthusiast's hodgepodge than as a careful (much less meticulous) record. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 17 Dec 23 - 07:43 AM In the songbook Folk Songs of Canada, 1954, edited by Edith Fowke, the version of "Donkey Riding" is that of the Oxford Song Book. Fowke's notes on the song echo Wood/Oxford, plus some of her own suppositions. She states, parenthetically, "(The 'donkey' refers to donkey engines used in loading cargo.)" My present guess is that this is the source (handy for Canadian kids'/school singing, the channel through which the song was most popularized) of the popular idea about the steam engine metaphor. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 17 Dec 23 - 06:47 AM As a matter of interest, Punch for January 14, 1887, has this parody of "King of the Cannibal Islands," about Arthur Balfour. BALFOUR'S "IRREPRESSIBLE" DONKEY. OH! have you heard--but of course you have-- Of a curious creature, as stubborn as brave, An iron-heeled kicker, a buck-jumping knave, Called the Irrepressible Donkey? The "Blondin Donkey" is full of his tricks, But the Irrepressible easily licks His Music-Hall model in capers and kicks; And the cleverest rider is found in a fix, When he sidles up to the animal's side, Flings o'er the saddle his legs astride, And rides, or rather essays to ride, The Irrepressible Donkey. [refrain]See him straddle, behold him rear! The cleverest rider may well feel fear, And cling to the neck; or hold on by the ear, Of the Irrepressible Donkey. This mischievous "moke" is an awkward brute, And apt from the saddle to suddenly shoot The would-be Balaam who doesn't suit The Irrepressible Donkey. Many a Balaam that seat hath had, Riders good, and riders bad, But Tory, Liberal, Whig, or Rad, This dreadful donkey has driven them mad. FORSTER fuzzy, and BALFOUR tall, HICKS-BEACH, MORLEY, each and all, At one time or other, have had a fall From the Irrepressible Donkey. [refrain] BALFOUR mounted as well as most, And some of his friends are beginning to boast That he's a right RARERY, who will not be tost From the Irrepressible Donkey Of Donkey-riding he has the gift, Is up to each asinine struggle and shift, Can make the animal feel his heft, And prone on his back will never be left, BALFOUR, they say, is a blessed boon, He'll treat as the Colonel treated the coon, And make dance, soon, to a genteel tune, The Irrepressible Donkey. [refrain] Well, that, of course, remains to be seen; At present the creature is prancing, I ween; There still seems some "devil," and plenty of spleen. In the Irrepressible Donkey. Round he goes with his hoofs asprawl, His mouth gapes wide, and his teeth aren't small, With his ears laid back, and his tail to the wall, He doesn't appear a nice "mount" at all. To brave BALFOUR and his "resolute" Chief 'Twill be a great joy, and a real relief, To find there's one rider does not come to grief With the Irrepressible Donkey. [refrain] See him straddle, and stamp, and rear! Look at his grinders, and twig his ear! He'll still want a good deal of "riding," I fear-- The Irrepressible Donkey! Funny that the scansion of "Cannibal Islands" matches versions of "Donkey Riding." And what are the odds that the parody would have a similar "donkey" refrain-phrase? I can't imagine this one-off in Punch catching on, much less among sailors, so perhaps it's just a funny coincidence, but I think it is interesting. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 17 Dec 23 - 06:16 AM Harlow next publishes the chanty material from the "Making of a Sailor" manuscript as "Chanteying Aboard American Ships" in journal installments beginning in April 1948. The original manuscript for the whole of "Chanteying Aboard American Ships" is dated 1945. That manuscript's table of contents includes "Riding on a Donkey" with both the notes "(Walk Away)" and "Halliards." Sorry again, I don't have access to the page of the manuscript where the song appears. Chanteying Aboard American Ships was published in its entirety (in book form) in 1962. I presume it contains the same or nearly the same as appeared in the 1945 manuscript. The book's table of contents lists only the song title. The song appears on pp. 72-3. The chanties in this part of the book are situated within a narrative of a passage out of Sydney in 1876. Harlow often refers to Brooks, of Brooklyn NY, the main chantyman. In contextualizing "Riding on a Donkey," Harlow has Brooks leading the song for hauling a topsail halyard. However, at the top of the score, the song is credited to Capt. J. L. Botterill. Botterill was an Englishman who had sung some chanties to Harlow (i.e. Harlow had "collected" chanties from Botterill, years after his retirement from the sailor profession). Two other chanties credited to Botterill appear in the book, as do chanties credited to print sources like Burgeson. In 1926 correspondence with a third party, in archive, Harlow refers to his contact with Botterill, calling him "a sailor of the later school." It's no surprise that Harlow might need a refresher on the song 50 years after his sailing days, though it's frustrating to get this Botterill version rather than whatever (so we are to believe) Brooks sang in 1876. The song's text has elements of the "Little Powder Monkey Jim" (Creighton's "Chanty Song," mentioned up-thread). Soon we'll be in London Town Sing ye lads, hi-oh! We'll see the Queen with a golden crown. Sing ye lads, hi-oh! Hi-oh and away we'll go. Sing ye lads, hi-oh! Hi-oh and away we'll go, Riding on a donkey. We'll see the girls with eyes of brown And drink the best there is in town. We'll clew sail and heave her to And never sail till the pay day's due. At Oxford Circus we'll take our stand Among the lords and ladies grand. My gal I'll dress in ribbons bright And at Garrie's show we'll spend the night. We'll drink the best he's got in store, And when it's gone we'll call for more. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 17 Dec 23 - 05:30 AM F. P. Harlow included "Riding on a Donkey" in the c.1928 manuscript for his 1928 book The Making of a Sailor. The manuscript, in typescript, was titled "Chanteying on the Ship Akbar," with "The Making of a Sailor" (later, presumably) written in hand above. Most of the chanty material in the manuscript, however, did not make it into the 1928 book. I have photographs of the table of contents of the manuscript (The Making of a Sailor) but, alas, no image of the page where the song appears. In the table of contents, it is indicted "Halliards." |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 17 Dec 23 - 05:13 AM In Shanties from the Seven Seas (1961), Stan Hugill writes about the song: "This was also very popular among the timber droghers both in Liverpool and Canadian ports, and was used as both a capstan and runaway song when working cargo. I had my version from an old shipmate called Spike Sennit, who said it was just as popular at sea as in port. The compiler of the Oxford Song Book (II), ...gives a version very similar to mine..." Ever skeptical of Hugill's loose language, I wonder if he *only* heard the song from Spike Sennit. The first sentence paints it as though he had some broad knowledge about the song, either from firsthand experience and/or documents, but think it could just as well be a conclusion from his reading of the Oxford Song Book with some additional assumptions thrown in. Hugill presents the song again in Shanties and Sailors' Songs (1969) with no mention of a donkey engine. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 17 Dec 23 - 05:01 AM Walter Raby is described elsewhere as "Trinity House Pilot of Rampside." |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 17 Dec 23 - 04:56 AM Bumping this thread in light of a current thread (containing a Christmas-themed parody of "Donkey Riding") in which a poster states that the song neither refers to literally riding a donkey nor to a donkey engine. I am presently doubtful that the phrase does not plainly refer to riding a donkey and I'm curious to know when the idea of the donkey engine might have creeped into discourse. So, I'm adding a few additional sources that haven't appeared (fully) yet here. Wood, Thomas, ed. The Oxford Song Book. Vol. II. Oxford University Press, 1927. Page 63 has "Donkey Riding" with score. Were you ever in Quebec Stowing timber on the deck? Where there's a King with a golden crown Riding on a donkey. Chorus: Hey! ho! away we go Donkey riding, donkey riding Hey! ho! away we go, Riding on a donkey. Were you ever off the Horn Where it's always fine and warm, And seen the lion and the unicorn Riding on a donkey? (Chorus) Were you ever in Cardiff Bay? Where the folks all shout 'Hooray! Here comes John with his three months' pay Riding on a donkey!' (Chorus) Notes: "...was sung thirty or forty years ago [1887-1897] on Lancashire ships and schooners which ran from Liverpool and Glasson Dock to Canada for timber... I am indebted to Mr. Walter Raby for this song." |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,eldergirl on another computer Date: 07 Oct 13 - 12:50 PM for instance, I know a bloke named Buffalo Bill ( heave away, haul away) He says he won't, but his buffalo will! (we're bound for south Australia) with thanks to Graeme Knights. And a Kong is still four of a kind in mah jong. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Rumncoke Date: 07 Oct 13 - 11:46 AM I used to know the song from school, and the rude version too, later - but it was over 40 years ago and I'm blowed if I can remember either. Mind you - it is a shanty - you just make up dirty lines as you go along and then you make up some more so as to get a laugh from those expecting the ones you did last time. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Mike Muir Date: 07 Oct 13 - 07:50 AM Another latecomer to this thread. I lived in New Brunswick for 3 years, "skeeters" should be replaced with "blackfly", which gits nicely, and the do indeed "bite we"! These little pests are also known as "no see'ums". |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 03 Jan 13 - 06:46 PM Related: Has anyone wondered about the "coffee and bohay" lyric in the same song/same version? I have a good theory...but I'll spare you if it is obvious (e.g. to Brits). |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: open mike Date: 16 Feb 11 - 08:18 PM Hong-ki-kong is actually Donkey Kong, and refers to a popular video game... |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Tony G Date: 16 Feb 11 - 03:36 PM Well having been out in the far east on various vessels and had the love boats come alongside with its cargo of girls. I think the line is a sexual inuendo but may also refer to the fact that the ladies of the orient are great gamblers and I have seen fights over Mah Jong games so it may be a double meaning or a mis spelling even. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST Date: 12 Sep 09 - 01:31 PM Donkey riding we will go, heave ho, heave ho! |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Snuffy Date: 10 Jun 09 - 04:11 AM Lighter and Q Many thanks to you both: I shall re-listen to William Rennie with the words in front of me. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Jun 09 - 10:02 PM Glad Lighter beat me to it. The lyrics in the JAFL article have a few words different, e. g. verse 2: Line 1- In ninety-eight we chased the foe right into Bony Bay, Line 8- And all the while was singing as if his pluck to show: The title given is "Little Powder Monkey Jim." Printed with musical score, 4/4. Munch also printed a whaling song, no title, but with musical score and "Her Sailor Boy," also with music. Other songs were versions of Barbara Allen and other well-known English folk songs. On a later visit, Munch found the words of "Little Powder Monkey Jim" much changed; he also gives the revised version, with music. The chorus had become: Soon we'll be in London town, sing malatchie, oh See the king in his golden crown, sing malatchie, oh, Heave ho, on we go, sing malatchie, oh, Who's a-fair to me to foe, sing malatchie, oh, ho. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Jun 09 - 09:38 PM Peter Munch first printed "Little Powder Monkey Jim" in JAFL, vol. 74, no. 293, 1961; later in 1970, "The Song Tradition of Tristan da Cunha," Bloomington, Indiana. In order for it to have a proper heading, I will put it in a new thread. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 09 Jun 09 - 09:29 PM Snuffy, how's this? THE POWDER MONKEY. A yarn I've got to spin, as how I've heard my old Dad tell, Of a gallant little hero, who aboard the Vict'ry fell; He was brimmin' full o' courage, an' was just the sort of lad To make the sort o' sailor that our Navy's always had. As powder-monkey, little Jim was pet of all the crew, With his flaxen hair so curly, an' his pretty eyes o' blue; An' the bo's'n always said as how that what got over him Was the chorus of a sailors' song, as sung by little Jim: Chorus: Soon we'll be in London town, Sing, my lads, yo, ho! An' see the king in a golden crown; Sing, my lads, yo, ho! Heave ho! on we go, Sing, my lads, yo, ho! Who's a-fear'd to meet the foe? Sing, my lads, yo, ho! In ninety-eight we chased the foe right into "Bouky Bay," And we fought away like niggers all the night till break of day. The foeman's flagship "Orient" was blow'd away sky high, With the Admiral an' all his crew — and sarve 'em right, says I. Now little Jim was in the thick of all the fire an'smoke, An' seemed to think that fightin' hard was nothin' but a joke, For he handed up the powder from the magazine below, An' all the while a-singin' like as if his pluck to show: (CHORUS) But little Jim was book'd, for as the fight was just on won, A musket bullet pick'd him off, before his song was done; They took him to the cock-pit, where a-smilin' he did lie, And the sailors, well, there wern't a man but somehow pip'd his eye. Says Jim, "My lads, don't fret for me, but if the shore ye see, Give a kiss to dear old mother, an' say it came from me." An' there never was a braver heart that serv'd our gracious King, Than the little powder-monkey who so gaily used to sing: (CHORUS) The "London town"/ "golden crown" lines of the chorus go to a melody *very* much like that of "Donkey Riding." A 1923 issue of the journal "The Windmill" quotes the original chorus, adding "The ribald sang,'See the king with his trousers down.'" In "Donkey Riding," the previous line is "Where the gals they do come down." In 1961 Hugill might not have cared to print what they came down to see, even if it seems relatively tame today. Part of the actual chorus is quoted in Punch for Sept. 8, 1888. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Barry Finn Date: 09 Jun 09 - 08:19 PM "The price of me loves a half a crown Pay me the money down A half a crown or I don't drop 'em down Pay me the money down" Barry |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Snuffy Date: 09 Jun 09 - 07:41 PM Lighter I've never been able to make out much at all of William Rennie's Powder Monkey Jim on the Carpenter recording, and can't access Jstor, which seems to be the only place on the web with it. Have you decoded the recording, or found a print version at Jstor or elsewhere? |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 09 Jun 09 - 12:29 PM Snuffy & Gibb, "See the king in his golden crown" may well be legit. It certainly occurs in a 19th C. music-hall sea song called "Little Powder Monkey Jim." Which is not say that other things weren't also sung. IMHO, "only charge you half a crown" is a little too indirect for folk bawdry. The "half a crown" part sounds absolutely right, but my guess is that unrefined sailors would have said exactly what the "girls" were charging half a crown for. But "Where the skeeters do bite we" is indeed ridiculous. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Snuffy Date: 09 Jun 09 - 09:50 AM Gibb, I usually sing Was you ever in Mirimashee Where they tie you to a tree And there they leave you all the day Riding on a Donkey But I think it should really be "up" not "you" in line 2 |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Stringsinger Date: 08 Jun 09 - 06:54 PM Hey, just like Jimmy Crack Corn. Someone just made it up. Hugill is given authority however because he is a real chantey-man. It makes for a great thread however. Fakelore or folklore? Who can tell the difference? |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Jun 09 - 05:52 PM Thanks,Lighter. Nordhoff seems to have rewritten or revised his books, leaving out or changing some contents and publishing them with different titles. For example, I have "Seeing the World," which has "Stormy," as given in "The Merchant Vessel," but lacks the others and skips to the paragraph about the men "who yearly resort to Mobile Bay to screw cotton..." The other chanteys in "A Merchant Vessel" are omitted. Apparently he used "Hieland Laddie" again in "Nine Years a Sailor," which is the book referred to by Fowke and Johnston. I wonder if anyone has compiled his newspaper articles- I have seen a few offered for sale as cut-outs from the papers, but have no idea of the total or variety of these writings. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:49 PM Only charge you half-a-crown Much better, obsolete term or no! Now does your version have the "skeeters." or can we cook up something a little more grown-up? :) |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:48 PM Q, Nordhoff's A MERCHANT VESSEL (1855) has that reference. You can download it free on Google Books/Scholar! Good luck Gibb |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 08 Jun 09 - 03:47 PM Two and six - that 12 and a half pence in this modern money. Or 14.4 eurocents in euro-currency. There's inflation for you... |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Jun 09 - 02:07 PM Thanks, Lighter. Are those the lyrics from "Nine years a Sailor"?; although some are repetitious, he was a very clear writer, very easy reading. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:45 PM Nordhoff: Were you ever in Quebec, Chorus:--Bonnie laddie, highland laddie, Stowing timber on the deck, Chorus:--My bonnie highland laddie oh. [Similarly:] Were you ever in Dundee.... There some pretty ships you'll see.... Were you ever in Merrimashee.... Where you make fast to a tree.... Were you ever in Mobile Bay.... Screwing cotton by the day.... |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 08 Jun 09 - 01:16 PM In "Folk Songs of Canada," Fowke and Johnston mention the version of "Hieland Laddie" (Donkey Riding) in Charles Nordhoff, "Nine Years a Sailor," 1857, in which Quebec, Dundee, Merrimashee and Mobile are mentioned. He obtained it from cotton screwers in Mobile. Mentioned in passing in Hugill. Hugill gives 10 verses and a chorus of "Donkey Riding" in "Shanties and Sailors' Songs, but provides no information as to source Does anyone have access to the Nordhoff book? Not available at Abebooks or Alibris. I would like to know the exact form of the song he collected. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Snuffy Date: 08 Jun 09 - 09:03 AM No "golden crown" in my version: Was you ever in XXXXXXXX town Where the girls all do come down Only charge you half-a-crown Riding on a donkey. Of course half-a-crown (2/6d) doesn't mean a lot to most Brits under 40 years old, nor to those residing outwith these sceptered isles. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Azizi Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:58 AM Thanks, Gedi. Knowing Mudcatters, I figured that I wasn't the only one who had that reaction upon reading about that gesture. That said, I don't intend to address that issue anymore on this thread and look forward to reading about additional examples and analysis of this song. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gedi Date: 08 Jun 09 - 08:40 AM I'm with you on this Azizi - I too cringed when I saw that reference, and I appreciate (and agree with) your comments as to why you found it offensive. cheers Ged |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: bubblyrat Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:13 AM I have always thought of the "Donkey",at least in this instance,as being the capstan,whereon the fiddler or other musician would sit whilst a capstan shanty was being sung,hence "riding on a donkey"--I am prepared to give it some credence,anyway ! Simple & logical. Whilst serving before the mast Ha Haargh Jim lad,my fellow Lowest-Forms-of-Human-Life and I were wont to refer to our Chinese colony as "Honky Fid". A "Kong" was four of a kind in "Mah Jong"---times change !! |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Jim P Date: 08 Jun 09 - 04:02 AM Clearly, Heiland Laddie and Donkey Riding share a tune as well as lyrics, but Heiland Laddie dates back to at least Burns (as "I Hae Been to Crookieden"). Since learning this is a "two-fer," I perform Heiland Laddie as below, and "Donkey Riding" in the usual three-line form. I first encountered the Jacobin (non-shanty) version from a track on the Tannahill Weavers' "Mermaid's Song." From their website: "All versions of this song that we are aware of have only two verses. We have taken the liberty of putting two versions together. We have completed this musical "club sandwich" by adding a pipe tune at either end of the song. Greenwood Side is of the traditional variety and Pattie is yet another super composition from Neil Dickie. LYRICS: Where have you been all the day, bonnie laddie, highland laddie Saw ye him that's far away, bonnie laddie, highland laddie On his head a bonnet blue, bonnie laddie, highland laddie Tartan plaid and highland trews, bonnie highland laddie I ha'e been at Crookieden, bonnie laddie, highland laddie Watching Wullie and his men, bonnie laddie, highland laddie There our foes that burnt and slew, bonnie laddie, highland laddie There at last they got their due, bonnie highland laddie Satan sits in yon black neuk, bonnie laddie, highland laddie Breaking sticks tae roast the duke, bonnie laddie, highland laddie The bluidie monster gied a yell, bonnie laddie, highland laddie Loud the lach gaed roon' a' Hell, bonnie highland laddie Geordie sits in Cherlie's chair, bonnie laddie, highland laddie Had I my wish he'd no' sit there, bonnie laddie, highland laddie Ne'er reflect on sorrows past, bonnie laddie, haghland laddie Cherlie will be king at last, bonnie highland laddie" |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:41 PM Snuffy, just guesses. Speculation about the song is that variants of the song reached Canada from France and the Channel Islands in the 17th c., but little to back that up. Only fragments (e.g. Chantey song, coll. Creighton). It has musical elements found in French Coastal songs (see le chasse-marée), but nothing concrete. I have just the first four "Cahiers de chants de marins" from Chasse-marée and one French marine song cd of the many, a poor representation, so I only have a 'feeling' that the song is French about vessels working towns along the French Atlantic coast, and that perhaps the Jersey version may be close to an older French song. Porchémue of the song is an old French name for Portsmouth. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Azizi Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:37 PM And for the record (in case someone was going to point out that I'm not the only Person of Color on Mudcat now) , I know there is at least one other Person of Color on Mudcat at the present time who has publicly acknowledged that he is a Person of Color. I also know of two other Mudcatters who have privately indicated to me that they are Black. It's their decision whether they want to share this information in the public forum or not. IMO, race/ethnicity often adds context to a person's comments. I'm speaking as an amateur folklorist who believes in gathering race/ethnicity demographics as well as age, gender, geographical location, and date. Some people may not agree with this position. "Different stokes for different folks." |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Azizi Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:26 PM Q, I suppose your post is written to me. You wrote "The gestures and language, of course, are unacceptable now, but why waste effort wringing hands about it in every thread on Mudcat?" I'm glad you agree that the gestures are unacceptable-and it's the gesture that I'm talking about, not the song. Q, I'm assuming that you will agree that slanty eye gesture has nothing what so ever to do with this particular song. And if it did, IMO, it would still be problematic. I understand that "it's a free country" and if people want to make fun of people they can. However, it's possible that some person of Asian ancestry might happen upon this forum and be turned off by these posts. I added to the record so they-and any other person who is concerned about cultural competency would see that there are some people on Mudcat who recognize that such gestures are inappropriate and potentially hurtful (actually treating people in culturally insensitive ways diminish us all and not just the group that is so referenced. who is referenced. I've read comments on various blogs including this one http://www.racialicious.com that persons with Asian ancestry note how hurtful it was/is for them to be teased by non-Asians who make such a slanted eye gesture. (There are even children's playground rhymes that mention making slanted eyes, but that is somewhat another subject). Your question "Would you remove them from study?" [with "them" meaning songs with culturally incompetent language] is a straw man. I did not suggest removing this song and I have not suggested removing any other song from Mudcat. However, I have suggested that a public disclaimer be posted on the Mudcat home page and the FAQ page that reads something like "Mudcat provides examples and information about folk songs in the interest of folkloric study and aesthetic appreciation. The lyrics of certain songs may include words, phrases, and references that are culturally insensitive". Also, Q with regard to your question "why waste effort wringing hands about it in every thread on Mudcat?", I presume that "it" means examples of culturally insensitive words in songs". If so, I'm sure you know that I'm not "wringing (my) hands or any one else's hands. And I'm sure you know that your implication that I bring up the topic of race in every thread on Mudcat is an exaggeration. It would also be an exaggeration to say that I bring up the topic of race in every Mudcat thread to which I post. However, I will admit that I do feel the need to bring up the topic of race/racism sometime. And sometimes I also feel the need to respond to the topic of race/racism when other Mudcatters and/or guests bring that topic up. I have said this before and will say it again-I'm interested in many other topics besides race/racism. And if there were any other People of Color on Mudcat who publicly acknowledged their race, I would not feel the need to share my perspective as a Person of Color as much as I do now. As to your point "Censoring the past is immature. It is there and must be accepted", IMO the past is still the present and if we don't want it to be the future, people have to speak up and share why they feel that such gestures are insensitive -and if there was insensitive language in the thread-then that should be discussed also-as I have noted in other threads (as you have reminded folks) and as I will note again if no one else does and when my spirit moves me to do so. Finally Q, actually Dead Horse's post isn't the only reference to that slanty eye gesture on this thread. But that's rather besides the point, isn't it? |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Gibb Sahib Date: 07 Jun 09 - 09:23 PM I hope you do find the more-or-less authentic verses, since some of them in the text sound like something Barney the Purple Dinosaur would sing: "See the king with his golden crown" ?? "Where the skeeters bite we" ?? These must be cover-ups for something less clumsy! I laugh every time I hear Great Big Sea shout out the "golden crown" bit in such a righteous way, and laugh harder when I hear clones do it exactly the same. I'm being too mean-spirited; I should go to bed soon. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Snuffy Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:27 PM Just because you find a version of a song in a minority language or dialect doesn't automatically make it older than the English version: probaly more songs have been translated from English into Gaelic than the other way round. Sus man j'valet does indeed appear on a website of Jersey songs, but if you look at the index page of that site you will find many other "traditional" Jersey songs which have subsequently been translated into English such as
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 07 Jun 09 - 08:12 PM The songs and actions are a matter of historical record. They are part of the evolution of western culture and music. The gestures and language, of course, are unacceptable now, but why waste effort wringing hands about it in every thread on Mudcat? Would you remove them from study? Censoring the past is immature. It is there and must be accepted. (The only reference to slant eyes in this thread is the sarcastic comment by Dead Horse) |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:42 PM I guarantee you that Stan wouldn't make such stupid and pointless gestures. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Azizi Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:26 PM Correction- I hope Mudcatters no longer condone such culturally incompetent actions if they used to condone them when this thread was first started in 2001. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Azizi Date: 07 Jun 09 - 07:25 PM Did anyone else cringe when they read the posts on this thread that referenced singing this song while" place[ing] both index fingers at side of eyes, pulling skin to outside so making your eyes slanted, and say [ing' "Hong-ki-Kong" with fake chinese accent?" I hope so. And I hope Mudcatters o longer condone such culturally incompetent actions if they used to condone them when this thread was first started in 2001. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 07 Jun 09 - 02:51 PM Did anyone ever hear Stan Hugill sing his "real words"? Some say he occasionally did so (though not necessarily to this particular song). |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:11 AM The tune is old, but all the words we have seem to be 19th c. In the Jersey song "Sus Man J'valet,", the nature of the beast is unspecified in one version, and a 'pony' in another. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Dave Hanson Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:07 AM Words in sea shantys don't have to make sense, it's just a rhythm to facilitate getting a job done. eric |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Brian N. Date: 27 Jan 06 - 09:32 PM More on the chanson link. I think it definitely explains alot --- and I think in light of the history of Jersey and what is known about chansons -- the donkey is just that "a donkey" -- it is not so amazing how a chanson would appear in Newfoundland as one might think, but it does place a greater antiquity to the song: The organized colonization of the islands around Newfoundland started at the end of the XVIIth century and was officially encouraged by King Louis XIV. Most settlers were fishers from Pays Basque, Brittany and Normandy. Merchants from Saint-Malo (Brittany) settled in Saint-Pierre and built warehouses dedicated to codfish storage. The Great Banks were so rich in cods that the explorer Giovanni Caboto (XVth century) is said to have fished a lot of cods just by dipping a basket in the water. Cod fishing was a source of dispute between the French and English settlers in North America, which turned into a succession of wars. The Channel(Jersey) Islands acquired commercial and political interests in the North American colonies in the 17th Century. Islanders became involved with the Newfoundland fisheries in the 17th century and in recognition for all the help given to him during his exile in Jersey in the 1640s, Charles II gave George Carteret, Bailiff and governor (of Jersey Island), -- [Geroge Carteret was a very successful Pirate hunter] a large grant of land in the American colonies, which he promptly named New Jersey, now part of the United States of America. Colonists would have came over from Jersey during this period of time, and with them brought their songs[chansons] from the Normandy coast... and even more interesting is their movement to Nova Scotia in 1713, and may explain the Nova Scotian variant, "Chanty Song" about George I (1714). I think this song much older than it appears...and may have been adapted to fit the Timberships, Donkey Engines, as well as corrupted by bawdy sailors at sea... but invariably -- A cigar is sometimes just a cigar, and a donkey -- just a donkey. Cheers, Brian |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Brian N. Date: 27 Jan 06 - 04:49 PM This chanty can also be found in a variant known as "Chanty Song" -- and was collected by Helen Creighton in "Songs and Ballads From Nova Scotia" (c.1930's) -- There aren't many notes in the book other than it is sung by Mr. Richard Harlan, South-East Passage. I think it pre-dates Donkey Riding, and placing it around the 1740-50's or so... Simply conjectrual, but I think that because the tune Heiland Laddie from which both songs are based, was definitely piped by the Scottish Highlanders at the Battle of Culloden, 1745. Heiland Laddie mentions another tune, "If Thou'lt Play Me Fair, Play" which pre-dates it. However, I would think "Chanty Song" would be within a generation of the "King With The Golden Crown" (1714) for the line to be relevant. The "King With The Golden Crown" would have to be none other than George I. When George I became King of Great Britain and King of Ireland in 1714 it was decided to replace the previous state crown (ie, the crown worn to open parliament) first created for King Charles II in the 1660s by a new crown, as the old one was judged "weak" and in a poor state of repair. Much of the ornamentation was transferred to the new crown. As with precedent, however, it was set not with precious gems but with decorated stones and glass. The crown itself consisted of four half-arches on a golden band, with the aquamarine monde and cross that had been added to King Charles's state crown in 1685. On top of it stood the cross. The crown is quite famous and still exists today, given to Queen Elizabeth II in 1995. Chanty Song: Soon we'll be in England Town. Heave me Lads, Heave Ho To see the King with a golden crown. Heave me lads, heave ho Heave on, on we go. Heave me lads, heave ho Little powder monkey Jim handing up the powder from the magazine be- low When he got stuck with a ball that laid him so low heave ho, on we go. Heave me lads, heave ho Chorus. SOON we'll be in England town, Heav, me lads, heave ho, To see the king with a golden crown, Heave, me lads, heave jo, Heave ho, on we go, Heave, ne lads, heave ho. ----------------------------------------------------------------- The Cross-Sections Man-of-war. Biesty, Stephen. London, Dorling Kindersley, 1993 explains in detail the "six man" firing crew, which the "little powder monkey Jim" in the song would be a part of, as an early 18th century convention of naval warfare. The Powder Monkey would be the sixth man of the gun crew: "Gunpowder was stored in a special room called a magazine. This was deep in the ship's hold. The crew took powder from the magazine to the filling room where it was made up into cartridges. Because the gunpowder being so flammable, the gun crew kept very few cartridges close to their cannons. In the handling chamber, the gunner made up the cartridges as they were needed, passing them out to the powder moneys through wet curtains that guarded against sparks. Powder monkeys rushed the dangerous cartridges of gunpowder from the handling chamber, along the narrow gangways and ladders, to the guns. They were helped in this dangerous task by anyone else who was not manning a gun." This also helps to date the chantey, I believe this would put this version at about mid-18th Century -- somewheres from 1740-1790. When the navy was actively pressing young lads, and I think within a generation or so of George I, and from the technology desribed in the one stanza. Donkey Riding would have came after or maybe even concurrently, I think as previously mentioned would have stemmed from "Chansons" of the French Voaygers who did alot of lumbering at that time. In fact, the lumebrjacks are sometimes attributed to the origins of term "shanty". Hard to say about what the "donkey" actually is, but literal donkeys frequently appear in the French Canadian Chansons... most of the chansons are "land" songs that have been brought over by the colonists (Champlain / Cartier). However, real donkeys did not exist much in Quebec. "... in most cases the old words are still sung, telling of things that belong to Europe rather than to New France. The 'donkey' in Marianne s'en va-t-au moulin is an animal practically unknown in Quebec. These chansons sing of princes, knights, and sherpherdesses in a country where princes, knights and sherpherdesses are certainly not recorded on the census lists" --- Canadian Folk Songs by J.Murray Gibbon (1927). Also, the Quebecer's (as we call them here in Canada) were also known to sing "A pasourelle" or a children's round, which becomes transformed in the course of few centuries into a robust "pulsating tune which disguises the literal meaning of thw words". The French settlement in Canada ceased early in in the eighteenth century, so that importted chansons, may "in most cases be dated as not later than the seventeeth century" --- The chansons were often passed down by mouth from generation to generation.. it is quite possible, that "Donkey Riding" was originally adapted from a chanson as mentioned previously and it would be likely that such a chanson would be fairly old, as "Donkeys" were a rarity in Quebec, and any such lyric would probably date to the seventeeth century or earlier (Quebec was founded in 1609). I would think this a plausible link to the chantey , and combined with the information from Helen Creighton, would date the original to nearly the same time as Highland Laddie --- and as the "Donkey Engine" developed it would make sense it would be further adapted to accomodate these shipboard changes. ----------------------------------------------------------- Ironically, I had a great great grandfather who was pressed into Royal Service at about eight years of age -- he served for fifteen years, from about 1745-1760. He was a powder monkey, and his name was Jim. (James Cass/Cast). Cheers, Brian |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 29 Sep 04 - 01:17 AM Cleaned up? It's only versions by scurrilous sailors and those (forgive me for mentioning the name!) drunken chantey singers that need censoring. Pure, innocent Canadian children have kept more of the sense of the original; a simple litle song about visiting towns along the Channel, and across the water in sober, upright Canada. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Crabs Date: 28 Sep 04 - 11:19 PM Maybe its just because it rhymes with Don-key? Hong-Ki , Don-key. Oh those wily sailors, baffling us with thier esoteric references. I can just hear some belching deck swabber snorting out "Hong-Ki" like a drunken jackass. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Skipper Jack Date: 28 Jan 04 - 05:23 AM I met a few Canadian children who knew the shanty "Donkey Riding", It appears to be popular among school children there. Obviously some of the subject matter was cleaned up. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Jan 04 - 06:29 PM Strange how a little French or Jersey song about riding a donkey or horse and visiting towns along the Channel got turned into a chantey about foreign places. The link may be in the Quebec version of the chantey, but there could be earlier connections. The term donkey engine and donkey man (boy) are fairly old, appearing in print in the 1850s. Donkey winch probably older. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Jacob B Date: 27 Jan 04 - 05:49 PM I'm no expert, but my understanding is this. Before there were donkey engines (shipboard engines to which lines would be fastened to do all manner of work) there were donkey winches (shipboard winches to which lines would be fastened to do all manner of work.) Donkey Riding was one of the chanties used for working a donkey winch. I saw a picture of a donkey winch once. As I recall, it was rather like a seesaw with a long handle at each end. Four sailors would hold onto each handle, and they would haul the handles up and down to work the winch. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,andy Date: 27 Jan 04 - 03:02 PM the song refers to the donkey being the emblem of france and the lion and the unicorn being the emblem of england - an old english sea shanty relating to english/french rivalry |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Mike O'Leary-Johns Date: 02 Oct 03 - 12:22 PM Hong-Ki Kong..... Sailors ; Liked to use " Words" that "sounded filthy" but were unintelligable to " landlubbers". This they used with songs sung ashore to confuse anyone other than sailors.Hence the Comic songs which used nonsense phrases which seemed to refer to seaboard activity. When passengers were found aboard ship and they were asked not to Offend them they resorted using nonsense words to "Impress" others. This is Stan's explanation not mine.Mike. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 01 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM The version with the line 'Were you ever in Quebec,' sung in the timber camps, comes from the French- Jersey song, "Sus man j'valet," as do the chantey versions. Anyone know of early versions in English other than in the chanteys or Canadian song? |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Lighter Date: 01 Oct 03 - 03:37 PM Hugill makes it clear in "Shanties from the Seven Seas" (and still clearer in "Shanties and Sailor Songs") that he altered the last line of nearly every stanza in "Donkey Riding" because the originals were unprintable in the '60s: "the veriest filth," as he says in S&SS. No doubt he imported the rhyme "Hong-ki-Kong" from the German song to replace something else entirely. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: cobber Date: 27 Sep 03 - 04:02 AM Sorry to come in so late on this one. We used to play at the Melbourne Maritime Museum where you can pick up all sorts of things, including information and rumours. The version we used to sing began, "Were you ever in Quebec stowing timber on the deck something something something else riding on a donkey. An old guy there in the eighties told me this was a song from the timber hauling ships. If I remember it correctly, there was some sort of a large trapdoor at the bow that could be opened to get the timber on board. It was loaded through this by a crane and either for bravado or to help guide it (which I doubt due to the weights involved) men often would ride the load of timber onto the ship. This was called riding the donkey, possibly due to the use of the donkey engines running the cranes. Of course this could all be pure bullshit but that's how folk legends are made. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 27 Sep 03 - 12:11 AM Is there a French version to "Sus man j'valet," the ancestor of the shanty, Donkey Riding? I seem to recall one from French classes, long ago. Did the shanty arise from the meeting of Jersey sailors with those from the British Isles? An interesting question, probably with no answer. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 26 Sep 03 - 09:50 PM "Donkey Riding" is known on the island of Jersey and in somewhat different form, in Quebec. The donkey is just that- or a horse. Lyr. Add: SUS MAN J'VALET Av'vous visité Tschubec? Nou-z-y'en allait à la pêque Mais les femmes avaient trop dé becque! Assis sus un j'valet. (Assis sus un pônîn) Ouogue, ouogue, bidé-ouaie! Sus man j'valet, sus man j'valet (pônîn) Ouogue, ouague, bidé-ouaie! Assis sus man j'valet! (pônîn) Av'ous visité Chébourg? l'faut y viagi tchique jour Vendree ses patates, tonmates et chours Assis sus un j'valet. etc. for many verses, naming places all along the French coast. Have you ever visited Québec? We go there for fishing But the women talk too much (too much beak) seated on a donkey (horsey) Chorus Turn right, turn right, turn left on my donkey, on my donkey Turn right, turn right, turn left seated on my donkey (horsey). Have you visited Chérbourg? we have to travel there each day selling potatoes, tomatoes and cabbages seated on a donkey (horsey). Sailors are mentioned only in one verse: Av'ous visité Porchémue? Les mathins habil'yis en bliu Balvent la bléthe dé pus en pus' Assis sus un j'valet. Have you been to Porchémue? the sailors are dressed in blue They drink beer mostly seated on a donkey. http://www.societe-jersiaise.org/geraint/jerriais/jvalet.html and http://www.teddy-uk.net/gbs/lyric1.htm Sus man j'valet Sus man j'valet |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Nov 01 - 06:58 PM My wife's father, (who turned 90 a couple of weeks ago) often refers to going to bed as "going to have some honky tonk". Meaning sleep.
As for holding your eyes slanty with your fingers when you're singing a shanty - they're work songs for God's sake. Alright, we aren't on board ship using them to help us work together more effectively, but I'd say they deserve a little more respect than that. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Mudlark Date: 15 Nov 01 - 05:54 PM Slight thread creep here, but I've always wondered about the ship name of the bold sea captain in Lady from Carlisle "....cap'n of the ship called Hong Kong Ki." Makes me wonder, now, if the ship was named for a sampan girl...(or was it just the only thing anybody could think of to rhyme with "raised his voice both loud and high"....) |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,MCP Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:43 AM Quite right Snuffy - that's what it should have been. Thanks. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Snuffy Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:26 AM I think the "gleich" means alike in this case. i.e soldiers and sailors alike, both sing her praise |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Charley Noble Date: 15 Nov 01 - 09:06 AM Thanks, Mick. Maybe "Sing out their praise" would work as a free translation. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,MCP Date: 15 Nov 01 - 03:44 AM Charley the verse is something like:
From Canton till Macao |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Snuffy Date: 14 Nov 01 - 07:33 PM Often shortened to Valippo, but lengthened to "we're off to Vall-i-paraiso round the Horn". See also the mangled words in 'The Fireship' "I hoisted her my sig-a-nals"; "Come all you salt sea sail-i-ors" etc., etc. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Nancy King Date: 14 Nov 01 - 05:57 PM I agree with Marian too. It's quite common in shanties -- which for the most part started out as verses made up on the spot -- for place names to get mispronounced, sometimes out of ignorance and sometimes just to make the words fit. Note "Vallipo" in the same song -- much easier to fit in than "Valparaiso." Cheers, Nancy |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Charley Noble Date: 14 Nov 01 - 12:07 PM What Marian says above makes sense to me. I wish she'd also translate the verse. I think I've figured out the "ding-dongs." |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: radriano Date: 13 Nov 01 - 07:47 PM Jim Nelson, one of the singers at San Francsico's Hyde Street Pier, actually has the girls in the song playing Donkey Kong, to great comical effect. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Marian Date: 13 Nov 01 - 07:12 PM Correction: sure it is not "just meands" but "just meant" |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Marian Date: 13 Nov 01 - 07:10 PM Hi you Mudcatters! I always thought the line " and they all move honky kong" just meands that they are moving in a very crazy way. (what "crazy" means is up to your mind!). I come from Germany and I think that what Charly Noble explained about this stanza taken from an old german song is not correct! Von Kanton bis Macao, Hong Kong nach Luliao, The soldiers and the sailors, Dis sangen gleich ihr Lob, Fur dinge, dinge, ding-dong! Fur dinge, dinge, ding-out! Sie war ein sampan machen und kommt aus Hong-ki-kong! This last Hong-ki-kong is just because of the fact you can't sing Hong Kong properly according to the songs melody. So there's just a new syllable added ("ki") which makes it easier to sing. This is fairly common in german songs and does not change the "meaning" of the word in any way, it's simply Hong Kong meant, although "Hong-ki-kong" is said Greetz! Marian |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Dead Horse Date: 13 Nov 01 - 03:25 PM Thanks to Nancy King, I will never be able to sing that line again without an inward chuckle. As a piece of hedication for them whats higgorunt, Hieland Laddie pre-dates Donkey Riding by some hundred or so years. It was a Scottish whaling shanty of course. Donkey Riding was an expression used by *proper seamen* to poke fun at those who used the donkey engine to do their work for them, but was turned around by said *lubbers* who got in & out of port quicker, loaded cargoes, weighed anchor and set sails, etc. & so managed to keep their ships profitable, while the old die hards found themselves *on the beach* and jobless. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Charley Noble Date: 13 Nov 01 - 03:15 PM I may be wrong but I believe the usual interpretation of "donkey riding" is exactly that, one of the recreations a sailor might experience once he got ashore. Yes, there were "donkey engines" to assist in heavy lifting but other than an ocassional wistful reference to "clear away the track and let the bullgine run" they didn't make it into shanties, because logically enough shanties weren't needed when they were used. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Celtic Soul Date: 13 Nov 01 - 02:32 PM This is me making it up as I go along, but I had surmised that (considering the line says "And they all walk hong-ki-kong") that it had to do with a not very opaque stereotyping of the way the Chinese walk. But then, I just sing the song. I am no historian. Howe'er, there is someone more in line with "ethnomusicology" in the midst of my band...I could always ask him. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Sourdough Date: 13 Nov 01 - 02:15 PM There is a version of Hieland Laddie that I have heard sung here in California that uses the phrases"Donkey Riding" and "Riding on a donkey". I figred without htinking aobut it much that it referred to the donkey engines that came along at the beginning of the age of steam but now that I think of it, that's not a very satisfactory anser. So, I ask, what does it mean. Of course, it will probably turn out to be sexual. THiose guys, they plough the seas all day and then everything turns out to be sexual imagery. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Nancy King Date: 12 Nov 01 - 04:27 PM Well, I'm gonna have to confess that many years ago I got it into my head -- with no thought as to the context of the song -- that it was "Honky Kong" and referred to a giant albino gorilla. Cheers, Nancy |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: wysiwyg Date: 12 Nov 01 - 04:19 PM Is this the origin for the game Donkey Kong? Is the Hokey Cokey the same as the Hokey Pokey? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Bat Goddess Date: 12 Nov 01 - 03:46 PM I pretty well figured out what it meant from the context (nudge nudge wink wink), but wanted reference sources -- which I now have! Thanks! Bat Goddess |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Nick Date: 12 Nov 01 - 03:39 PM If you cant figure out what that phrase means sing a different version! Great Big Sea does not use that line in their version. Ok so no help, just a plug for GBS! Nick |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Dead Horse Date: 12 Nov 01 - 03:12 PM As above. But when you sing it, do you place both index fingers at side of eyes, pulling skin to outside so making your eyes slanted, and say "Hong-ki-Kong" with fake chinese accent? I believe that is the politically incorrect way it should be done. I aint got no time for po-litically c'rect shanties. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Charley Noble Date: 12 Nov 01 - 02:36 PM Hugil goes on to say that the literal translation of "Hong Kong" means "fragrant water." We're probably left with sailors playing around in Donkey Riding" with a term they borrowed from another song, which to them implied having a good time with the sampan girls. |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Charley Noble Date: 12 Nov 01 - 01:37 PM According to Hugill in his SAILORTOWN book, pp. 297, "Hong-ki-kong" is a phrase in "an old German-and Scandinavian- sailor song in 'pidgin'" refering to sampan girls who retailed sexual favors to saolors aboard ships in the harbor: Von Kanton bis Macao, Hong Kong nach Luliao, The soldiers and the sailors, Dis sangen gleich ihr Lob, Fur dinge, dinge, ding-dong! Fur dinge, dinge, ding-out! Sie war ein sampan machen und kommt aus Hong-ki-kong! |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Bat Goddess Date: 12 Nov 01 - 01:22 PM Well, I have a feeling from context that it might be the sort of thing women who hang around the port area might do to or with sailors. But I want to know exactly what the words I sing mean. Bat Goddess |
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Subject: RE: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: GUEST,Lyndi-Loo (still cookieless) Date: 12 Nov 01 - 11:16 AM Could it possibly be the hokey cokey? |
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Subject: Donkey Riding - What's Hong-ki-kong? From: Bat Goddess Date: 12 Nov 01 - 11:11 AM Okay, I've been listening to various recordings and checked both Hugill and DigiTrad and searched the forum. What exactly does "hong-ki-kong" mean? As in "And the gals play hong-ki-kong?" (unexplained in both DigiTrad and Hugill). Bat Goddess Click for lyrics in Digital Tradition |
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