POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: InOBU
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:34 AM

Well, Lep... the trick is to find someone who sneezes three times without being blessed, jump on their back and their yours... or that is how I was told the story goes when I was a ween. Good luck. Larry
PS I also seem to rememeber Clorichans and Leprichans have different colored jackets, both are not red, as a Fear Yerrig is a completly different fellow. Cheers again, Larry

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: leprechaun
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:34 AM

Hail to the carnivores! If I can get folks to steal whiskey for me, I'll be a clorochan!

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 08:10 PM

Sunshine follows you!

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:11 PM

Everywhere you go!

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 06:05 PM

It's beginning to look a lot like thread drift....

Everybody sing along!

-Alex

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 04:50 PM

What big guy? Is he any good at opening pickle jars?

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 03:00 PM

I dunno. I thought I read a post that said something about the democrats telling the Big 3 networks what to say. But I see now it's pretty old.

Never mind. No need for the big guy to get out of his chair, I'll find the door myself.

Alex

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 01:54 PM

What are you talking about, Alex?

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM

Oh, no, we're back to the "liberal media" big lie. Spare us.

Alex

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 01:44 PM

One of the reasons for leaving the Anwar preserve unspoiled, DougR, is so that there can be caribou, still, for the Innu people to eat.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 01:25 PM

Well, I may have to settle for Buffalo, hardly settling! But, I can't eat beef, liver trouble, alergic to Beef. If Innu friends remember me, and there are folks coming to NY it is Carabou for dinner! But, well Carabou is to the Innu what Buffalo was to mid western Indians. I feel rather honnored that Innu often chose to share Carabou with me. The Carabou they hunt are still following the migration they have followed for millenia, for a great book about the other side of the same migration read "People of the Deer" by ... my brain just turned off, you know the fellow who wrote Grey Seas Under, and Cry Wolf, and all the other great books either about the sea or environment in Canada... where is my head today, we are talking about Military Tribunals, aren't we? I must be hungery! Farley Mowat! That's the fellow I am trying to remember.... I beter go get lunch. Cheers Larry

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:54 AM

Larry: you're gonna EAT a Carabou??? I find that shocking! After all, that poor Carabou you plan to devour could be frolicking in the Anwar preserve, but no, you're gonna eat 'em! For shame! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:34 AM

Och Leprichan, Musha, Garsson, a Clorachan is a Leprichan who kidnaps folks to steal whiskey for him, not a detergent! When I was younger in west Kerry, most really good drunks contended that they were under the influence of Clorichans. As to militant veggies, it is nice to see we have some common ground, as it is about time to go after the Christmas Carabou around the Otway house, So we will get flamed together, and use the fire to roast some Carabou and Yorkshire pudd.
Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: leprechaun
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 07:54 AM

Now waiting to be pilloried by the militant vegetarians.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:15 PM

leprechaun: Funny.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: leprechaun
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 03:21 AM

Hunting season.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 11:21 AM

Why October, leprechaun?

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: leprechaun
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 11:34 PM

inobu - I rarely use bleach, just regular detergent, except in October, when I use unscented laundry detergent. And I don't like those perfumey no-static dryer sheets either.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 06:33 PM

Loopy: I suspect you're right. I expect any day now to see a message posted by Kendall that he no longer admires GWB.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 03:35 PM

Sorry Sharon, didn't mean to put my foot on the ol' throat. Lord knows I've had enough folks try to step on my figurative vocal cords in some past threads, too. :-) I still contend that Bush is a popular president, but that rating will fade when the media decides it's time. Even a majority of Florida Democrats polled now prefer Bush over Gore in the wake of the 9/11 attack. But 2004 is a long way off, and I have no doubt that when the word is spoken by the Democratic leadership, the Big 3 networks and most newspapers will switch into full-blown "it's the economy stupid" mode. Hope they kept the manual from '92. Look for the shift to begin the day after Bin Laden meets his body bag.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 03:00 PM

Well, the US is hiding things, and should be. We have all talked a great deal about the intelligence failures that preceded the September 11th attacks, and we all know that the government is trying to correct those failures. If and when the government brings an actual terrorist to trial for involvement in the September 11th attacks, it will be a result of successful intelligence work. Intelligence work involves handling secrets, obtained from secret sources, often at great personal risk. This is the primary reason why military tribunals might make sense in this context; they can control the information and protect the sources to a much greater degree than open civilian courts can.

This ability to keep secrets is the greatest strength, and the greatest weakness, of military tribunals. In this country, at this moment in history, I am reasonably confident that this option will be used sparingly, and the tribunals will know that they are being watched by people who are uncomfortable about this Executive Order. I think we should keep an eye on this, but for the time being I think the limited military tribunal option makes sense.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: SeanM
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 02:24 PM

Unfortunately, whatever justifications are lumped on the 'secret trials' decision, what it presents to a large number of people is the impression that the US is hiding things.

Given the acknowledgement that the CIA and the US Gov. were backing the elements that now make up the 'Al Qaeda' when they fought the USSR, it definitely gives me the impression that the secret trials are more for the supression of past US activities than any reason that has been officially given.

Besides, aren't we supposed to be the 'good guys' in this matter?

Or is revenge justified to the point that we frogmarch someone through a 'military tribunal' to salve the image of the country when we kill those tried?

M

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: leprechaun
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 02:53 AM

I can understand some trepidation on the part of the our home-grown terrorists. Torching car dealerships, ski resorts and Ranger Stations reflects Osama's tactics on a smaller scale. In my community, it's quite apparent our local anarchists identify with al-Qaeda, whether they'll admit it or not. Maybe they're afraid the military tribunals won't be as easy to manipulate.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 03:21 PM

Larry: The last news I heard, the stock market it going up. Nearing the 10,000 mark again as a matter of fact.

After listening to Tony Snow's interview with Attorney General Ashcroft on the Fox News Network this morning, the idea of having military courts try those accused of war crimes makes more sense to me.

1. No U. S. citizens would be tried by military courts.

2. Foreign terrorists should not be accorded the same civil rights as those enjoyed by citizens.

3. The military courts would try only cases related to the committing of war crimes.

That narrows the field down enough for me to see the logic of trying prisoners charged with committing a war crime in a military court.

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: SharonA
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 12:51 PM

DougR: Oh! Thanks for clearing up the "dog and rabbit" saying.

Sharon A ;^) (That's okay; I get called "Susan" a lot) (As a mnemonic, just think of the song "My Sharona") (not "Old Susannah"!!!)

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 07:34 AM

Hi Lep... Sure you are not a clorachan? (Note that I didn't ask if the wee fellow was an amadan... one does not want to piss of the little folk...) Well, on a serrious note, yup, I can see why you would feel that way, after all, we all suffered through the most prosperous 8 years of American history the last Demopcratic presidency. Now, things are back to normal, the stock market is soaring downwards and civil rights are on the ropes. Ah yes, the American dream.
Larry

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 11:09 PM

leprechaun: How could you be so insensitive? Had Al stolen the election we would probably all be required to learn Arabic! **BG**

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: leprechaun
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 10:07 PM

YeeHaw! Got my cookie back!

Thank God George W Bush is our president in these troubled times. It we had gone with that seventh Florida recount and let Gore be president, we'd all be wearing robes of concealment and whimpering about why those nice Taliban people hate us so much.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: GUEST,InOBU sans Cookie
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 07:28 PM

Don't you think the more important if, would be if Dubbleya had not opposed a recount, and the Supreme Ct demanded that all the votes in an American election be counted and count... maybe I was asleep during Social Studies class, but my recolection is that each vote in the nation is of great importance and value. Still without a cookie, though Jeri and others are trying, Larry

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 07:21 PM

SusanA: I was referring to your statement of today's date at 3:24PM, "IF Gore had asked for and been granted a recount of the whole state ..." If, if , if,!

Just an old Texas "saying."

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 05:04 PM

Simple: metaphor for Doug R: anal sphincter.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 04:07 PM

DougR: Huh??? Please explain your metaphor; you lost me again.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: GUEST,InOBU who needs a cookie
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 04:04 PM

Kinda worrysome when the concervative point of view in the US is opposed to open courts and counting the votes in an election. Not the nation I grew up in, even during the McCarthy era. In those dark days the hope for the future was that we still had open courts and elections where the votes where meant to be counted. Not that there was not electorial fraud, but no one defended the practice.
Cheers and still without a cookie
Larry

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:57 PM

Loopy: I can't find anything to refute in your statements.

SharonA: The dog would have caught the rabbit IF it hadn't stopped to pee. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:40 PM

P.S. - Loopy, if you can, access the Mudcat Radio program for July 3, 2001 and give a listen to my song about the election ("The Electoral College Alma Mater and Fight Song"). Where have I been? In my garret, writing stuff, silly!

As for your baseball metaphor: I am well aware that the popular vote does not determine an election. I was contending kendall's assertion that Bush is a popular President. So kin ya git yer foot off my throat now, and let me up? *G*

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:24 PM

Loopy, I based my statement on the recent announcement that, if Gore had asked for and had been granted a recount of the entire state of Florida, he would have won by a very slim margin. Normally I would link you to an article in a news service, but since the article might someday disappear, I think it's important to reprint it here (please forgive the gobbling of bandwidth). This is from MSNBC, dated November 12, 2001:

-----------------------------------------------

BURIED TRUTH OF A FLAWED ELECTION
Florida votes, media spins, and a troubled world turns
By Eric Alterman, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR

If all the ballots cast in Florida had been correctly and fairly counted, Al Gore would have won, according to a report by the National Opinion Research Center.

NEW YORK, Nov. 12 —  You would never know it from the confused, pre-crash coverage in the nation's elite media Monday morning, but Al Gore beat George Bush in Florida by almost every vote-counting standard save the one that the Gore team managed to choose. This is consistent with the Democratic candidate's hapless campaign. The Supreme Court did not have to take the election away from Al Gore: he and his campaign gave it away themselves. And in doing so, they helped George W. Bush and his minions undermine American democracy.

No matter how you count it, if everyone who legally voted in Florida had had a chance to see their vote matter, Al Gore would be sitting in the Oval Office today.
MOST OF MONDAY'S headlines reporting the much-delayed results of the $900,000 study of more than 175,000 votes conducted for a consortium of eight news organizations by the University of Chicago's National Opinion Research Center (NORC) focus on the fact that when the Supreme Court issued its 5-4 decision handing the election to Bush — going so far as to reinterpret the law and refusing to allow its decision to be held as precedent — they were operating under a vote-counting scenario under which Bush would have prevailed. Indeed, Gore attorney David Boies, speaking before the court, explicitly ruled out a more inclusive recount of Florida's votes that not only would have elected his man, but would have been immeasurably more fair to the people of Florida who had a right to have their voices heard in determining their state's choice for president. Boies asked the Supreme Court to count "undervotes" but not "overvotes." Leave it to Al Gore to pick a legal team that fights tooth and nail against his best interests.

BURIED TRUTH
But buried beneath the deliberately misleading headlines on Monday is the inescapable fact that Al Gore was the genuine choice of a miniscule majority of Florida's voters as well as the victor by more than 540,000 votes nationally. On the other hand, George Bush would have won a recount using the "undercount only" scenario and so the Supreme Court majority that labored so torturously to hand Bush his "victory" dishonored itself for nothing. Al Gore professed a public desire to have Florida "count all the votes," but he never instructed his lawyers to demand the recount of all votes in all 67 counties that would have revealed his victory. (The award for most egregious misrepresentation goes to CNN.com for its headline that the results "showed George Bush winning even with a statewide recount." It showed nothing of the sort.)

Washington Post: Election 2000 was closer than close: Gore would also have won if Florida had managed to include the 113,000 ballots deemed to be spoiled by so-called "overvotes." Of these, more than 75,000 chose Gore and a minor candidate and just 29,000 chose Bush. Common sense demands that we admit that most of these voters were not supporters of either Patrick Buchanan or the Socialist Workers' Party. Again, Gore is the winner here by a significant majority. Moreover many overvotes were entirely legal. They simply weren't counted because a voter may have punched in Gore's name AND written it down to be certain the counter got the message. Gore never asked that these votes be counted, either.

MORE VOTES FOR GORE

Political parlance
Politics discussion board: As the Associated Press report put it, "In the review of all the state's disputed ballots, Gore edged ahead under all six scenarios for counting all undervotes and overvotes statewide." In other words, he got more votes than George Bush. Gore won under a strict-counting scenario and he won under a loose-counting scenario. He won if you count "hanging chads" and he won if you counted a "dimpled chad." He won if you counted a dimpled chad only in the presence of another dimpled chad on the same ballot — the so-called "Palm Beach" standard. He even won if you counted only a fully-punched chad. He won if you counted partially filled oval on an optical scan and he won if you counted only a fully-filled optical scan. He won if you fairly counted the absentee ballots. No matter how you count it, if everyone who legally voted in Florida had had a chance to see their vote matter, Al Gore would be sitting in the Oval Office today.

Of course these facts are of only academic interest. George Bush has been sworn in as president and the United States is at war and the media is not much interested in determining the democratic intent of the voters in an election already consigned to history. White House press secretary Ari Fleischer called the results "superfluous," adding, "The voters settled this election last fall, and the nation moved on a long time ago." Much of the national media apparently concurs. Indeed, they concurred even during the Florida recount. James A. Baker declared victory on behalf of his client, George W. Bush, on the basis of a faulty vote count and the media considered the rest of the story to be hardly more than wishful thinking and possibly self-hypnosis on the part of the Gore team. The narrative enjoyed a few interruptions of course, and required not only the Supreme Court to sustain it, but also what Paul Gigot of the Wall Street Journal termed a "bourgeois riot" by Republican operatives in Palm Beach county to shut down a vote that looked like it might go Gore's way. But it held.
PATRIOTIC DUTY?

The U.S. political system has produced virtually nothing to repair an antiquated election system that spends billions for advertising and almost nothing for accuracy.

One always had the impression that the major news outlets were reluctant to report the study in such a way that it injured Bush's shaky legitimacy. After Sept. 11, many seemed to feel it was their patriotic duty not to do anything to call into question the authority of the commander-in-chief. New York Times political reporter Richard Berke admitted as much when he wrote in his newspaper shortly after the attack that the NORC report on Florida now seemed "utterly irrelevant" and, had it been released too close to the World Trade Center attacks, "might have stoked the partisan tensions."

Obviously, those worries were for naught. The horrific crash of the American Airlines jetliner in Queens today ensures that even this study will receive next to no attention. But the ultimate price will not be insignificant. As recently as last week, according to the Gallup Organization, nearly half of Americans surveyed remain convinced that President Bush either "won on a technicality" or "stole the election." Even so, during the past year, the U.S. political system has produced virtually nothing to repair an antiquated election system that spends billions for advertising and almost nothing for accuracy. And in the election of 2000, it put the wrong man in the White House.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eric Alterman is a columnist for The Nation and a regular contributor to MSNBC.com.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: LoopySanchez
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 10:48 AM

Sharon, where have you been? Every study since the election has shown that Bush would have won every recount that Gore attempted, unconstitutional as they were. I notice you don't mention what the recount results would have been if Gore had been successful in his attempts to throw out about 9,000 more military ballots. (He'd have won by a bunch...why didn't you point that out?) No mention either of the ten thousand or so voters in Florida's more conservative central time zone who turned around and went home en route to the polls, because the major media outlets called the election with an hour of voting still remaining. If that's not disenfrancisement, I don't know what is! I also notice there's no mention of the claim that black voters were prevented from voting...perhaps because Jesse "the candle-moth" Jackson could never find ONE PERSON who'd come foward and back up his allegations. The only disenfrancisement of black voters that's been proven invloved REPUBLICAN blacks (They do exist--about 22,000 in Florida), whose votes were FIFTY (50) times more likely to be thrown out than others.

As for the oft-regurgitated argument "Gore won the popular vote, so he should be president," I present the 1960 World Series. The Yankees outscored the Pirates by about 20 runs in the series, but the Pirates won 4 games, the Yankees won 3. By your system, the Yankees are the champs, right? It's about states won, not votes won.

Back to the main topic: I'm not for using a military tribunal for every suspected terrorist out there. But for the masterminds, I have no problem with war crimes being tried by a military court. (It's good enough for the members of our own military...They can be tried for acts of treason, and it's done in a military court! How kooky is that?) Why shouldn't members of a foreign military (which is what the Al Qaida is, for all practical purposes) be given the same treatment?

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: SharonA
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 09:38 AM

Kendall and DougR (re: popular Presidents): Kendall, when you refer to "the idea of a gutless congress being afraid to go up against a popular president", I take it that you assume that Dubya is a popular President??? Not!!! Let's not forget that he lost the popular vote, and he would have lost the electoral vote as well if the state of Florida had done a recount (as I think they should have!). Then we'd be discussing the popularity of Al Gore – what a concept!

IMO, the illusion of Dubya's popularity is due solely to the desire of the nation for solidarity in wartime and for the presentation of a united front to the rest of the world. I have no doubt that we will live to regret standing behind him unless we clearly draw the lines we won't let him cross.

Larry: I'm glad to read that Bennet was so understanding!
Bennet: Thanks for forgiving Larry (maybe now he'll RELAX?!?!?!?!). Also, thank you for directly answering my questions about executive orders!

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 06:08 AM

THanks Jeri, email on the way... need more cookie! Larry

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 09:14 PM

Aw shucks, Jeri! Larry SAID he's on a diet! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 06:07 PM

Larry, I assume you've tried clicking on "Membership" at the top, and selecting "Reset Cookie" ??? If you need help with the cookie reset, click here to e-mail me.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: GUEST,InOBU without Cookie:-(
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 05:19 PM

Trouble is DougR: I've been on a wee diet, and I get so hungery I keep eating my cookie... Larry the cookieless

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 04:14 PM

Si!

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 04:09 PM

You missed the point Doug. On purpose?

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 02:59 PM

neither is Clinton, but he still gets heat.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: DougR
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 02:40 PM

Kendall: Ho Hum. :>) Reagan ain't president anymore.

Will somebody up there in NY send Larry a cookie? When you get it, Larry, try to hang on to it, okay?

DougR

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: kendall
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 08:41 AM

The idea of a gutless congress being afraid to go up against a popular president is something that scares me too. Remember how congress did nothing while Reagan ran up a 3 trillion dollar debt? When he got caught lying about Iran-Contre? and Arms for Hostages? How about when he invaded Grenada to get our minds of his recession? He was too popular with the voters, because they liked his "wit" and one liners. There are still those who want to build shrines to him. The Emperors new clothes.

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: GUEST,Larry of the lost cookie
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 07:29 AM

No my dear Leprichan, I think we have a number of American patriots on both sides of the issue, who feel that one should not neglect one's government when it is in error the same as one should not neglect one's children, to set both straight is an act of love.
Larry who someone has eaten his cookie...

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 18 Nov 01 - 12:14 AM

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.

--title of book by Robert Sherrill; quote attributed to Groucho Marx

Subject: RE: POL: Dumbya's Star Chamber
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Nov 01 - 09:07 PM

Do you consider Bob Barr a flag-burning anarchist, Leprechaun?