BS: An Israeli's perspective

Subject: An Israeli's perspective
From: GUEST,Deda
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 06:51 PM

The message below was sent to me by a friend, and I don't know how many links it has travelled through since it was written. I think it's worth reading, and I'd be interested to read people's reactions. I know that we're (i.e., Americans) all supposed to be wildly pro-Israel and that's why the world hates us, but in fact I've heard a lot more interviews with Imams and various Paelstinians spokespeople lately than I have with any Israelis. I'd like to be able to hear both. Rebecca (aka Deda)

Facts: 1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam. 2. Arab refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel. 3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years. 4. The only Arab domination since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years. 5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit. 6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 hundred times in Bible. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Quran, unlike Mecca and Medina which are mentioned hundreds of times. 7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem. 8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem. 9. Regarding Arab and Jewish refugees in 1948: the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by "Arab leaders", promising to purge the land of Jews. (Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.) 10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms. 11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries is estimated to be the same. 12 Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than Wales. (What a whale of an idea)... 13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won. 14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the state of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank and autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons. (Gee, where in the world is Oslo?)[I'm not sure this is accurate; I think that the PLO had to agree to change their charter at some stage in the US-brokered peace negotiations, sometime within the last 2-3 years -- but if anyone knows for certain, please speak up! -- Deda] 15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths. 16. The U.N. record on Israel and the Arabs of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel. 17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel. 18. The U.N. was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians between 1948 and 1967. 19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives between 1948 and 1967. 20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall between 1948 and 1967.
21. And we could go on and on ... but ... let's not be too hasty here: let's not forget that Israel has always paid back its loans. There are several Arab nations that, er, get their loans "forgiven."
22. Oh yes, I forgot. Then there's the one about Israel being the only country to be asked to give back lands acquired in warfare. I recently told Holger "Baby" Jenson of the DRMSnews something along the lines of, "So Holger Baby, let me get this straight: Israel has 3 million people and is surrounded by at least 80 million people. Um, who's threatening whom again?

Subject: RE: BS: An Israeli's perspective
From: Gary T
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:19 PM

My thoughts on some of these points:

1,3) So what? It has not been a continuous country in its present borders since then. Irrelevant.

4,5,6,7) So?

8) I have never heard of Jews praying facing any particular direction. I would say it's common knowledge that Muslims pray facing Mecca. The only ones who would have their backs to Jerusalem would be the ones who happened to be in between the two cities.

9) Rings true to me. I understand that part of the agreement that established modern Israel included lands for any displaced inhabitants of that area. The Arab state(s) involved reneged on their part of the deal.

10) Believable, but I believe most modern Israelis came from other parts of the world, mainly Europe. There would likely have been no call for a Jewish state in the Middle East

Subject: RE: BS: An Israeli's perspective
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:32 PM

Are we assuming that all Palestinians are Arabs? Or Muslim? Or both? I have only about one layer of ignorance removed from my brain on this complex problem, but I have personally no difficulty in saying that, while in no way condoning any violence etc. that has arisen, the Palestinian people have been royally screwed, essentially by the whole world, including some of their Arab neighbors. They have had to pay the price of the terrible genocide of the European Jews, but had nothing that I know of at least to do with it. I think there needs to be a Palestinian state, with strong safeguards against terrorist activities, with good water especially. They can't all go back obviously...but some token attempt to give back at least some of the olive orchards, orange groves, etc,so that the children can at least see their heritage in some preserved state and the old people can at least visit. Jerusalem can't be solved, so I agree with many saying it should be an international city and capitol of two countries. Both Israel and Palestine have to have auxillary places to put their growing populations. There is not enough room, nor water, nor land. Many many countries, particularly of the former British Empire, should take many many refugees, as should neighboring states, as should the US, to remove some of the population pressure. Students should be given scholarships to technical colleges etc. in various countries so that they can find work internationally, or help build their new state. mg

mg

Subject: RE: BS: An Israeli's perspective
From: Gary T
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 07:41 PM

My thoughts on some of these points:

1,3) So what? It has not been a continuous country in its present borders since then. Irrelevant.

4,5,6,7) So?

8) I have never heard of Jews praying facing any particular direction. I would say it's common knowledge that Muslims pray facing Mecca. The only ones who would have their backs to Jerusalem would be the ones who happened to be in between the two cities.

9) Rings true to me. I understand that part of the agreement that established modern Israel included lands for any displaced inhabitants of that area. The Arab state(s) involved reneged on their part of the deal.

10) Believable, but I believe most modern Israelis came from other parts of the world, mainly Europe. There would likely have been no call for a Jewish state in the Middle East if it hadn't been for brutality, persecution, and pogroms elsewhere.

12) Yep, and it's a crime. Arab states give the appearance of having one overriding concern, the elimination of Israel. The plight of modern "Palestinians," in and out of Palestine, appears to mean nothing except when it adds political expedience to that goal.

13) Re the wars--slow learners, eh?

14) You ever seen those cartoons where a fellow in a store is saying to a customer, "How about if we give you a replacement item free, refund your money, provide a written apology, and have the manager shot? Will that be satisfactory?" Palestinians show no sign of understanding the concept of reasonableness.

16,17) Some will say this is because Israeli actions have been so atrocious, others will say this is because the rest of the world is unwilling to regard the Israelis with fairness.

18,19,20) Believable, and if true, pretty damn sad.

22) I doubt that's true (look at WWII Germany) , but I wouldn't doubt that it's the only nation asked to concede land won in wars that it didn't start.

While I can't say I'm happy about all that Israel has done, I think that it's continually gotten the short end of the stick since its establishment in 1948. The vituperative hatred spewed upon it by almost all Arab and Muslim states, combined with little sign of compromise or reason, make me naturally sympathetic to Israel.

Nevertheless, this 22-point missive is more fluff than compelling argument. It seems to me it's made for the purpose of preaching to the choir.

Subject: RE: BS: An Israeli's perspective
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 08:17 PM

Here's another point that could also be made:

Only 22% of what has been called "Palestine" rests inside the territory now known as Israel.

The rest is in Jordan...78%. So, someone please explain to me why it is the Palestinians are not asking Jordan to relinquish some of their land as well? Why are these lands not contested even in part?

Subject: RE: BS: An Israeli's perspective
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 15 Nov 01 - 08:23 PM

It doesn't matter if it is all true, partly true, or all false. None of it changes the situation--it is more of the "These people are wrong, and we won't compromise with people who we know are wrong" fodder. The Palestinians have got as much, or more, with the same point--"They are evil, we won't compromise"--so today, nothing has changed, and it won't change, til people get beyond these points--

Subject: RE: BS: An Israeli's perspective
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 08:54 AM

Well said, Fiver.

Subject: RE: BS: An Israeli's perspective
From: GUEST,Tom Metzger
Date: 16 Nov 01 - 02:53 PM

Let's give New Jersey to the jews and call it Jew Jersey.