Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?

Subject: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Fortunato
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:02 PM

In preparation for a recording project, I'm curious whether you guys with studio experience use a click track?

And additionally if you have any recording advice it would be welcome. Susette and I will be doing the basic tracks, autoharp and guitar, and later standup bass will be added, as well as fiddle or mandolin on some selections. Thanks in advance for your suggestions.

Regards, Chance.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: SeanM
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:25 PM

If you're doing multitrack, click tracks are invaluable to help everyone start close to the same time. With the software available there's an AMAZING amount of things that can be done to fix timing, tonal errors, and more, but it's still better to be as tight as possible going in... and engineers aren't cheap...

M

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:53 PM

Hey Fortunato

We are now at the mixing stage of a CD from my band. We did not use a click track and I'm not sure why. First studio experience in fact. The stuff have down now is both exhilirating and awful at the same time. Ron the man at the dials says its gonna be great. Beware of being your own worse critic. Get a scratch tape or disc and listen to it everywhere but especially in the car.

I hear some voices on the tracks that can't be mine or anyone elses. Ron says he can use Fix-A-Flat on thm and they will be fine.

Can't wait to see, hear. Yours and ours.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 04:27 PM

Would suggest recording bass w/basic rhythm instruments w/o clicktrack as lead players and overdubs(vocals, etc) can make adjustments to slight rhythmic flucuations. The tracks 'breathe' according to the players 'driving' the tracks. Basically, it gives a more consistant sound from song to song and the unique syncopation developed between the bass and primary percussion instruments(ie, autoharp,guit,bass or guit,mando,bass, ect.) will lend itself to defining a 'sound' within the framework of your chosen format. The best recordings I've done are when you set up the mics, get a level, slap on a little compression and let 'er rip. I think a click track can sometimes make the music sound a little 'sterile' or forced. These are just opinions and preferences, mind you and I hope they're helpful. Give a listen to Steve Earle's 'The Mountain' for an example of what I mean. Whether you're a fan or not the 'sound' of the band is very consistant. Just make sure the basic rhythm supports the vocals and that every word is clear. Would not recommend using a click track. Good luck w/ your project. Jeff

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 04:58 PM

I recommend you try it at home first with a metronome, until you get used to it.

By the way, I've recently done a lot of transcribing of lyrics, by listening to CD's made from old 78-rpm records. I've noticed it's very common for the tempo to gradually speed up during a song. You don't notice it when you simply listen to the song from beginning to end, but if you then immediately start over at the beginning, it's obvious that the beginning is slower. Obviously, these recordings were made before click tracks were invented.

This causes me to expect that when people play music the ordinary way, without a click track or metronome, they tend to unconsciously speed up during the course of a tune. There's nothing wrong with that in "real life," but I don't know what the consequences would be in a recording studio. Would it make electronic "fixes" harder to apply? And does an accelerating tempo sound more natural, or more dramatic? Can a click track be programmed to accelerate? These might be good questions to ask your recording engineer.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: SeanM
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 06:19 PM

It's also an option (if you have the resources) to use a click to burn a quick "scratch track" to use in recording and then drop the click off the session - that way, rather than playing during recording to a click, you're actually playing to a rough version of the song. It (at least in my view) makes things a bit easier. Plus, if you set a simple four beat intro of clicks, it does help sync the performances greatly.

M

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 07:34 PM

Hi Jim,

Could that speeding up phenomenon be caused by the recording style of the day? 78 recorded live on a rotary disc recorder may have speeded up closer to the center of the disc. Those where pretty technologically unsophisticated days after all. I don't know this to be true mind you, just a wonder of my own.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Celtic Soul
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 07:47 PM

It has depended greatly on how complex the piece is, how familiar everyone feels they are with it, and how "natural" a feel we want. Sometimes a slight change in tempo is a good thing. Sometimes it helps to build the energy of the song (or bring it down a peg), and you don't necessarily want to lose that.

Most of my click tracking has been with bands other than my own when doing some studio work for friends.

I am neither for or against it. I think it has to be a decision made from the particulars of the situation.

One thought though...much folk music is traditional, and the folks who wrote those pieces had no click tracks...just a good drummer or rhythm guitarist, etc.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 07:49 PM

It depends on the song.
If I am recording something as a solo acoustic guitar piece, I usually lay down a click track or a dummy rhythm track (with a bass drum on beats 1 through 4 and a hi hat on 2 and 4) and then record against it, especially if it is a medium or slower tempoed number. Keeps me from rushing as I do have a tendancy to speed up as the adrenaline starts pumping, and allows me to focus more on the beat and keeping time, then what I'm playing.

I'm get so obsessed sometimes with trying to make perfect sounding and executed music sometimes that all I notice are the string buzzes or the gaffs / mistakes, that chances are no one other than myself would even hear or notice. And then it's hitting stop and rewinding and dealing with this over and over for a couple of hours.

Having a click or rhythm track to direct my focus towards, takes the pressure off the music. When I'm not locked in and concentrating on the music and instead am focused on the click track and staying in time with it, I play better and the music takes care of itself. (Course getting up and having a wee toke for strictly medicinal purposes sometimes helps as well, as I can worry less about what I'm playing or how well I'm playing it, and just let it flow.)

Some things are best left to the control of the subconscience, especially where making music is concerned. If you know a song well, and can play it "in your sleep" you should try and record it that way, rather than trying to analyze and critique every note you're playing as you're playing it. Now if only I could heed my own advice. **G** Ironically, things always sound better to me upon playback than when I'm actually sitting there recording. Headphones have a way of amplifying your mistakes or what you think were mistakes. Whip the headphones off, and listen to it through regular stereo speakers and suddenly it doesn't sound half bad.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Fortunato
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 03:53 PM

Thanks to you all. I think we will rehearse prior with "Doctor Beat" to set a target speed, and record a live scratch track with the click. Then proceed to over dub without it and see how it goes. Thanks for the input. I want our songs to "breathe" as Jeff suggested and a 'live' sound is desirable for our old time country genre. Regards, Fortunato.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 04:52 PM

Boy, Chance, you've gotten some great advice here. I've never been comfortable with click tracks but that just me. It's an inner ear thing or something, but when I'm following a click track I feel like I do when I tried to dance....and that ain't good! I've come up with a substitute which is to program the chord changes into my Yamaha Keyboard. It does the same thing as a click but seems to "breathe" a bit. It doesn't really 'cause time is time.....but it 'feels' better to me.

One bit of advice I might throw your way is don't do a final mix until you've lived with it for a few days. Things that seem horrible while you're in the recording process are much less noticeable after a bit of a break...and if you start trying to fix every little dynamic (I don't mean actual mistakes) you'll never stop!

Good luck

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Les B.
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 05:24 PM

Jim Dixon - I've noticed that very same thing, a gradual speeding up on old 1920's recordings. And, Don, I wondered too if it were the band or the recording technology.

My guess is it's the band. They sound somewhat tentative at first and then seem to get into a "groove" and rip on down the road - especially fiddle and banjo groups.

It sounds like a lot of good advice re the click track thing. The little experience I've had, we always tried to lay down a bass and rhythm guitar.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Erica Smith
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 05:32 PM

For my current project I'm recording scratch guitar and vocal tracks to a click track at home, then bringing the digital files to the studio, where we will start overdubbing.

May not be for everybody, but it's saving me a bunch of money -- paying an engineer to do a 'scratch' session isn't really worth it to me when I have the basic tools at home.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,fortunato in gratitude
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 09:48 PM

thanks, Rick, I'll take your advice about living with it for awhile. We're taking the LONG VIEW. No rush to 'finish'.

Erica thanks for your ideas, I don't have the stuff to do it at home but I see the value.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: JedMarum
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 12:39 AM

I see a lot of good advice here. I think a click track and refernce or dummy track are good ideas - but definately agree that it is important to get a good rhythym track/s down before you do vocals and leads. I also agree that it is most helpful to listen to rough mixes for days before you do any final recording fixes or mixing. But one more thing I suggest you consider; plan out each part (how many of which instrument, how many vocals) and have each part rehearsed before you go into the studio. You can always change your plan if you really need to, but the studio is not the place to learn your parts!

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 01:14 AM

What Jed said. I always use a click track and a reference vocal/rhythm track which can always be recorded over when you lay down your keeper vocal/rhythm track. I also always do a count in at the start of each song. One more thing - if you leave too much time between laying down your instrumental tracks you start to hear things you "coulda/shoulda/woulda" done better. E.g. you learn a nice new lick that you want to put in. This is similar to the phenomenon that Rick described in his last paragraph above, except that in this case you don't hear mistakes, you hear things that aren't there and want to put them in. Then you'll never get finished.

All the best.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 08:42 AM

Seamus, Thanks. Jed, Thanks. Good advice, all. 'Will keep it in mind.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Tom French
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 09:12 AM

Recordings made against an enforcing click or metronome beat tend to become sterile. Music needs freedom for expression. I would advise recording your initial tracks on the principal expressive instrument. On the ensuing takes of the backup instruments, treat your playing as if you were a band member trying to support and enhance the expression of the soloist. Technical answers are interesting and maybe useful for canned sound, but always strive for the human aspect if you want music. Surely an entire band is the best answer for the simultaneous human interaction and mutually supporting 'build' on the sound. But you can come very close in tracking if you take on the human role. Over years of listening, I have found myself endlessly drawn to live performance acoustic recordings, a situation where everyone has to be real. Practice a lot way ahead of time. Repetition of recording effort can stymie the musical quality; musicians get tired bored or set into other modes somewhere around the umteenth retake. Best is to have played/sung a piece for months until it has gained it's own persona, apart from yourself. That is what is worth saving and offering to someone else. Frankly the ideal is to never make a recording; just get everybody that wants to hear you into your house or concert hall. Real life is where music is at!

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 10:08 AM

Good thoughts, Tom. As this is our first CD we will be recording songs we've been playing for audiences for months (some for years). I hope to use the basic guitar/autoharp/vocal/click track to "lock in" the tempo, for layering AS NECESSARY, not as an over-riding structure. Thanks for your ideas. Fortunato.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 10:56 AM

Jed has it right, also JustaPicker, Rick, and Seamus. Recording is a learning experience, and be ready to learn a lot. . First timers often don't have there arrangements worked out as tightly as they need to be, so know how many measures of what goes where. Have intros, solos, endings, polished and counted out. Know how many measures you are going to play and what goes in each. even for the parts you will record later. You'll sound better, and have less trouble recording, if you put the bass down first, not later. And a click track is a must--

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Justa Picker
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 01:03 PM

Thanks Fiver.

It's also a very good idea to make written notes or a "road-map" of every arrangement to be recorded so that you know what instrument/vocal is on what track; how many tracks you've used and what's left; and punch in/punch out points (markers) for correcting or improving any recorded track sections. Believe me, those notes will come in very handy, and will save you time in the end.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Fortunato
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 01:07 PM

Cool, Justa', I like the road map idea.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Fiver
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 12:04 AM

Justapicker just saved you anything from hours to weeks--helps, when you have alternate tracks, to rate them, stars or whatever, so you don't forget which one you liked and which was not so good--

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 12:18 AM

Bravo Justa!

I can attest that without a scribbled note or two you can waste a lot of time.

During the recording of my last album we did several takes on a few songs....then left them for a few days. Had to listen sooooo closely the next time in the studio to see which take we wanted to use. Had I (or the engineer) made a note originally for each take ie: 1st take too fast, 2nd take, flat note in chorus....etc. at least a couple of (expensive ) hours would have been saved.

Rick

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: ddw
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 12:39 AM

Some great advice here — this is definitely a marker.

Just wanted to respond to Don's musings about the speed-up being from the tightening spiral of the record. Unless there's some arcane physics thing going on, I don't see how it could. The revolutions are the same (78, 45 or 33) from start to finish and the music is spread into the grooves evenly in the manufacture of the record — i.e., if a note lasts for one inch of the groove in the first cut, it would last the same one inch in the last cut. The only difference is that the spiral is tighter, but that doesn't shorten the transcribed note. Think straightening out the groove and you'll see what I mean. So if it goes on that way, it'll play back that way.

Clear as mud? Maybe somebody else can explain it better.

cheers,

david

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 01:16 AM

Hi David,

Thats quite clear. Thanks.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: X
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 03:36 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Michael (Conniption)
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:05 PM

My band is split between doing a click track and not. I feel that I don't want to, considering we've spent a lot of time and money on one song already and we have 11 more to go... and we are not rich.

I think getting in the same room, with amps hopefully out of the room, would create a live feel that would make the music feel great. We also want this album to be perfect, so using a click track insures that the tempo is perfect, but is it at the cost of the music?

I think we might be able to push to try recording rhythms together (without a click track) and see how it goes. Especially considering it takes WAY less time like that and might even imporve the feel. What do you guys think?

Thanks!!

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: treewind
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:28 PM

I've used them when needed. It's as simple as that.
If you're not used to playing to a click track, it's a very disconcerting experience, the rhythm may not be smooth and the track may loose the "feel", so it's a tricky decision.

It's possible that practising with a click track will teach you enough about the correct tempo and where you are speeding up (it's usually speeding) that you can then record without the click and have the benefit of a more musical recording but with the speed naturally under control.

Technical perfection vs. musical quality is of course the perennial challenge of a recording studio and one of the hallmarks of a good engineer is the ability to make that judgement call, all the psychology that goes with it, and knowing when a good take with a technical mistake can be edited into a perfect stunner.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 02:34 PM

It depends to some extent on what kind of music your band is playing (acoustic music with no drummer generally doesn't like too rigid a rhythm), but in my opinion it's [b]always[/b] going to sound more like a band and less like s studio concoction if you play as live as possible. I have used clicks very occasionally, but there is a danger of (a) making the music sound stilted and (b) finding yourself in a situation where you have drifted a tiny bit off the click track, so you then try to correct it with the result that there's an audible glitch in your timing.

If I find myself having to do overdubs, maybe because the studio isn't big enough for all the players, or because there's a sound spill problem, I would recommend getting the basic track down live with two or three musicans, then overdubbing the others, to get a live feel at the core of the track. For instance, on a recent recording of mine, the accordion, guitar and fiddle went down live and the hammered dulcimer and sax were overdubbed.

This might not apply to Michael, but another thing I don't like doing is laying down a solo guitar track and then overdubbing a vocal over it. Some engineers prefer that, thinking it gets the best vocal and instrument sound with no spill, but again it can end up sounding stilted.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 04:40 PM

It's interesting to consider how to get the best of both worlds, the benefit of a click track AND the subtle variations in tempo that result from emotion and energy. So I wondered, can a click track have subtly-varying speeds, for example an increased tempo where the music's intensity grows and a more relaxed one somewhere else? Such a track would need a count-in to fix the starting place.

I do occasional home recording (learning tracks for multi-part vocal music) and since I have Audacity for editing it's also what I use to make click tracks--I haven't noticed any obvious way to vary the speed within a click track, but I'm only a basic user. Sometimes it would be useful to include interpretation in these learning recordings, and still use a click track. Control of tempo changes (in a performance version of the song) is often passed from one voice to another throughout each song, so usually there isn't one voice I can use effectively as a click track.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 05:03 PM

I have used them.
like Brian,I prefer not to lay a guitar track and over dubbing a vocal,this sytem might produce the best hifi sound and make life easier for the recording engineer, but it [imo]doesnot produce the best music.
on my last two cds, Windy Old Weather and Concertinas and, there were some tracks where it was not physically possible to record the concertina and vocals seperately.
I am convinced that those tracks where I did not record seperately are by far the best tracks.
Brians advice is very good, try and go for the live musicality of musicians playing together as much as possible .Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 08:08 PM

Well, I suspect that basic click tracks as generated by computer programs are only fixed rate. It would be easiest to do it that way.

How about a basic electronic drum kit, recorded onto the click track - you should be able to vary the tempo - but you will need to script it out in advance, and won't be able to change it on the fly.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: olddude
Date: 29 Aug 10 - 09:09 PM

I have a software one built into my recording studio software. I don't know how to use it or even what I would use it for but it is there. Maybe someday I will play with it.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: John P
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 01:04 PM

The trick is to use a click and still have it sound "live". It takes a bit of practice but isn't really that hard. Most of the time, the live feel comes from striking a note either very slightly before or very slightly after the beat. You just have to do that while there's a click going on.

I've often had two or three people play the song with the click just to get the song down at a steady tempo. Then everyone plays along with those scratch tracks without hearing the click. The scratch tracks then get thrown away.

Mixing is a mess if there's a lot of bleed-through from other instruments or voices, which is what you get if everyone records together in the same room. I've also done a lot of recording where the same musicians are playing two or three parts on the same song. Doing that without a rock-steady rhythm is almost impossible.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: michaelr
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 01:20 PM

Perhaps it says more about my ability as a rhythm guitarist, but I've always found playing with clicks and metronomes extremely difficult. I like John P's "scratch track" suggestion which puts the click at one remove.

Ironically, makers of some drum machines, in response to the criticism that a perfect mechanical pulse is too sterile, have built in a "human" feature which puts the click ever-so-slightly off beat.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 01:23 PM

I am fairly good at playing with a click track i practise tunes with a metronome , but ,I still think that playing live with other musaicians gets the best musicality, if not the best hi fi sound, in fact i am absolutely convinced it is the best way.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: Crowhugger
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 01:41 PM

In my situation, there's no need for change on the fly during note/word learning, the purpose of my recordings. People get a recording of (1) the finished product, (2) their own part, (3) the finished product minus their part. Some also like to have the other individual part tracks to sing with during learning. Once notes & words are learned, the recordings have done their job.

Your replies tell me there's good reason for the historical practice of leaving the addition of interpretive variations in tempo (and other stuff too for that matter) until after the note-learning is done. Probably it's not worth the work to put interp. into learning tracks, given the small number of learners who really have trouble re-learning rhythms. It makes sense to spend the effort to develop these people's rhythmic flexibility.

That said, I've been thinking about it since yesterday, and with Audacity I could generate click tracks of varying speeds, then do a lot of measure-counting and cutting 'n' pasting to make a varied-tempo click track. But for now I think life's just too short for that...so much harmony, so little time...

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: treewind
Date: 30 Aug 10 - 03:06 PM

I have a feeling that a click track with variable speeds is going to turn out to be a big waste of time. Better to play/sing a guide track and use that, replacing the guide with the real version when the other parts have been added. (but sometimes a scratch vocal has ended up being the one on the album because it was better than the replacements...)

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Michael (Conniption)
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 12:49 AM

We're trying every song with a click...We'll see how it goes. Because our songs have many differnt tempos we are doing this:

1. scratch tracks (recording each seperate tempo, then cutting the song together)
2. drum tracks (using the scratch as a guide), maybe we'll have a member play along for parts with a free tempo
3. bass
4. guitars
5. solos/vocals

We are a psychedelic/metal band, so we play many styles, which makes it hard to get it down to a science.

Thanks for the help, though! I still think a click track is not needed, but I think it helps musicians sleep better at night. ;)

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 09:40 AM

I'm surprised nobody mentions MIDI tracks. They can serve as click tracks, intonation guides and a lot more. Counting bars is normally easier, and so is changing tempos. Often the composer or arranger will have a raw MIDI file handy. Sequencer software will allow you to calculate gradual tempo changes (ritradandi etc.) or to "humanize" the beats. Other software can make the MIDI beats follow an existing performance, or produce both simultaneously.

Your MIDI file can use various drums for "clicks" and include parts of the music to fix the intonation, if necessary. If your recording software (Audacity...) does not understand MIDI sequences, make it record the output from your sound card playing the MIDI. Moderate sound quality can be tolerated since the track will be deleted eventually.

Subject: RE: Help: Do you use a click track in the Studio?
From: GUEST,Michael (Conniption)
Date: 18 Feb 11 - 12:59 AM

We ended up without having a problem at all! We used a click through mostly every note. Here's how we did it:

1 We made scratch tracks, recording seperately for each change in tempo.
2 Then we mixed them together to make the songs complete.
3 Then our drummer worked his ass off practicing to the scratch tracks (which contained the click as well).

Therefore, when we got into the studio it was just like he had practiced it and we shot through the songs very quickly. We are doing an album with MANY tempo changes (fastest tempo at 300) with 70+ minutes of material, and he recorded it in ONE day. This is the first time our drummer has used a click track in the studio (besides one song we used as a guniea pig). Thanks for all the help you guys, I learned a lot here and used it to our advantage.

---------

Though, I should mention a few times our tempos didn't feel right, whether we normally speed up during a specific part, the tempo moves up and down, or whatever the case may be... And our drummer played those parts in free time, usually with us playing along with a live scratch track. I think an important thing for the drummer to remember is that the click track is a GUIDE, but if it doesn't feel right, then it's probably not right. After all, you can't hear the click track on the final mix of the song... Unless you're into that sort of thing.