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TECH: Sing it in, get dots out

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GUEST,Aardvark 19 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM
katlaughing 19 Nov 01 - 03:19 PM
Mark Cohen 19 Nov 01 - 09:51 PM
Jon Freeman 19 Nov 01 - 10:32 PM
katlaughing 20 Nov 01 - 12:28 AM
GUEST 20 Nov 01 - 12:52 PM
MMario 20 Nov 01 - 01:01 PM
GUEST,Paul 20 Nov 01 - 01:08 PM
Joe Offer 20 Nov 01 - 01:27 PM
katlaughing 20 Nov 01 - 01:31 PM
MMario 20 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM
GUEST 20 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM
MMario 20 Nov 01 - 02:31 PM
GUEST 20 Nov 01 - 03:00 PM
MMario 20 Nov 01 - 03:28 PM
Joe Offer 20 Nov 01 - 04:19 PM
GUEST 20 Nov 01 - 07:05 PM
MMario 20 Nov 01 - 07:32 PM
Snuffy 20 Nov 01 - 08:07 PM
katlaughing 20 Nov 01 - 09:04 PM
JudeL 21 Nov 01 - 09:42 AM
GUEST 21 Nov 01 - 10:07 AM
Scabby Douglas 21 Nov 01 - 11:00 AM
GUEST 21 Nov 01 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Paul 21 Nov 01 - 01:33 PM
JudeL 10 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM
Mr Red 10 Mar 03 - 06:31 AM
pattyClink 10 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM
Mark Clark 10 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM
Joe Offer 10 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM
open mike 10 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM
Frankham 10 Mar 03 - 06:22 PM
Frankham 10 Mar 03 - 06:34 PM
MMario 11 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM
CapriUni 11 Mar 03 - 11:30 AM
John in Brisbane 17 Mar 03 - 02:40 AM
GUEST 17 Mar 03 - 09:18 AM
Dave Bryant 17 Mar 03 - 10:32 AM
JudeL 17 Mar 03 - 11:02 AM
MMario 17 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM
Geoff the Duck 18 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM
belfast 18 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM
NicoleC 18 Mar 03 - 04:38 PM
MMario 18 Mar 03 - 09:35 PM
Nigel Parsons 19 Mar 03 - 04:00 AM
Blues=Life 19 Mar 03 - 08:00 AM
NicoleC 19 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM
GUEST,An 19 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM
JohnInKansas 19 Mar 03 - 02:14 PM
MMario 19 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM
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Subject: Sing it in, get dots out.
From: GUEST,Aardvark
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM

Does anyone out there know of any software that if you sing the melody it will write out the music dots for you ?


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 03:19 PM

You can sing it into Real Producer, then go to Notation Software and click on the midi you just produced and it will print it out in a jiffy. I don't have time to put in links, off to an appt, but if you search for either in the threads, there's been a lot said about them. There are free evaluation modes of each.


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 09:51 PM

Whoa, really, kat? That's amazing....gonna have to try those! Do they really work as described?

Aloha,
Mark


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Nov 01 - 10:32 PM

kat, are you sure on that? I thought Real Producer was a product designed to produce output, including live broadcasts, in Real Audio formats. I know nothing of the MIDI capablilties.

I did look at some Audio recognition software quite a while ago but at that stage, as far as I could make out it was not very reliable and I would guess that voice would be incredibly difficult.

I'd certainly be interested in learning more.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 12:28 AM

I'll will confirm this tomorrow, by trying it again, but as near as I can remember I've done this in the past. I'll get back to you.:-)


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 12:52 PM

What do you want to use the software for, Aardvark? If you just want to write out melodies-remember, it is a simple thing to pick out a single note melody on a keyboard and enter it, even one note at a time, into either a sequencer or notation software, and you can play it back to see if it is right, and if not, change it. You don't even need to be able to play the keyboard. If(and when) there is a good audio recognition software for this purpose, you will still have to work out your vocal part perfectly before you enter it, or do a lot of work cleaning it up.

Big problem with converting midi performance to notation is that when you play an instrument, time values are not exact--quarter notes might actually be dotted eights with a sixteenth rest--if you are converting vocal performance, you'll have to deal with that, plus the fact that in vocal performance, pitch values fluctuate, and four counts of "C" might really be more of a high B at the beginning, move up to a C#, and maybe even trail off to as low as an A--Don't believe me? Just get your electronic tuner, set in on "Mic" and try to sing and hold each of the pitches--


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:01 PM

Guest - speaking from experience - for some people - myself included - it is NOT a simple thing to pick out a single note melody on a keyboard.


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:08 PM

Well, there is Sound2Midi

No idea how well it works though

Paul


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:27 PM

Hmmmm. I took a look at the Sound2MIDI Website, and the product does look interesting. It converts only from a single source that plays or sings one note at a time, so you can't pick out a melody from a CD track unless you can isolate a single instrument.
Don't think I'll bother trying it, but I'd sure like to hear a report from somebody who's had experience with something like this.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: Sing it in, get dots outo
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:31 PM

Looks as though I misremembered. Sorry for getting your hopes up. Notation Software has to have a midi fed into it in order to print sheet music and Real Producer does not make midis.

MMario, if you need any help with picking out tunes on a keyboard, I'd be happy to help. Have keyboard, have Noteworthy, have ability.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 01:50 PM

kat - be careful - I may take you up on that!!!

*grin*

do have a couple I would love to get into sheet music form. May send you a tape - and you could do them at your leisure.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM

MMario,

If you can't pick out a melody on the keyboard, you will be over your head with any sequencing/notation software, because no matter how music data is entered, you always need to do a lot of editing--


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 02:31 PM

gee - how can I say this guest. You are wrong.

I cannot with any sort of ease pick out a melody on a keyboard - even a song I have been singing for many many years. I have a great deal of trouble picking out a single note version of chopsticks with any kind of consistancy.

I have been using notation software for about 5 years now and while I do not claim to be any great shakes can and do edit frequently. JoeO will confirm that what I produce doesn't always match accepted musical scores - but they are usually recognizable as the tunes they are suppossed to be.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 03:00 PM

I have to ask you why, after five years of working with something, you haven't taken time to learn some basic skills that would make it much, much, more rewarding?

Most community colleges with music programs offer non-credit, evening classes in piano--with little work, and practice, you will be able to read music, and play the instrument well enough to get exactly what you want out of it in notation and sequencing--I have only recently read here that you are a very good singer, which means that you have a good ear--combine it with some basic piano technique, and you will be able to do a lot!


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 03:28 PM

guest - I have been *trying* to learn to read music for over 40 years. I suffered through frustration in company with many excellent teachers. The best I can do is a painful count the lines & recite the mnemonics. For every note. On a good day, every other note. Unless I already know the tune - then I can just watch for ups and downs. If someone will give me the note.

The various transcription and notation programs have been a godsend for me. 10 years ago if I saw a "new" song I had to find someone to play it or sing it for me. Now I can plug it into the computer myself.

It's not totally gibberish to me - but close to it. Yes, my "ear" is reasonably good. [for relative pitch. As far as absolute pitch I have not ever been able to match note names to what they sound like - in either direction] I would say I am an "adaquate" singer. (would be *much* better if I could hold a tempo - or consistantly hit my opening note.) But I can COPY music; I can take a midi and (with reasonable frequency) pull the melody line out of it. I can usually tell if the lyric "fits" a tune - and make minor adjustments.

As far as becoming able to keyboard - I still have difficulty chewing gum and walking at the same time - and my friends frequently plead with me NOT to try and clap along with *anything*. Eyehand coordination sucks. My typing skills dropped by 75% when I went from pure "hunt and peck" to touch typing (a required course) and it has taken me close to thirty years to regain them.

I realize that this *is* not a normal situation. But I can assure you it is not from lack of trying.

For me - working with sheet music is the equivilant of an illiterate who can copy the letters from a book. But I haven't the foggiest what it "says" until I get it to play over the speakers.

But I am willing to bet there are others out there in the same boat I am.


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Subject: Tunes for the Digital Tradition
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 04:19 PM

Yeah, I suppose it's kind of ironic that Joe Offer and MMario are working on the Digitrad tunes. I don't play an instrument and I don't sight-read music, but Sister John Bosco did a good job of teaching me music theory. I can't transcribe by ear, but my ear is good enough to tell me when an interval is wrong or the meter is off - and then I send the tune back to MMario for correction. I try not to hurt his feelings, but sometimes I'm a little hard on poor MMario.

After MMario and I finish with the tunes, I send them on to Dick Greenhaus for conversion into SongWright and inclusion in the Digital Tradition. Dick has been swamped with tunes because of MMario's tune-gathering campaign, so it may be quite some time before all the tunes get included.

If at all possible, I like to see Digital Tradition tunes that are transcribed from printed sources. We're looking for the melody only, no fancy stuff - and it's very helpful if you identify the source of the tune.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 07:05 PM

I don't know, MMario, it sounds like you have learning differences, which means that the way that those "excellent" teachers teach is not the way you learn.

Since a teacher teaches, and they didn't teach you, then were not really teachers(at least for you). And in spite of the fact that none of them could teach, you managed to teach music to yourself-- since you didn't know anything about music in the first place, that makes you a better teacher than they were--and since you managed to learn something from a person who knew nothing, I am sure that someday, when you find someone that knows something about both music and how to teach it to you, you will be able to learn--


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 07:32 PM

*sigh* I never said they didn't teach me anything about music - I said they were unable to teach me to READ music.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 08:07 PM

It doesn't have to be a piano - I find one of my whistles in the key of the track, work out how to play the tune on the whistle, and then transcribe it note by laborious note. Then re-work it three or four times till it sounds something like what I want.

Send me one you tapes, Mario and I'll see what I can make of them.

WassaiL! V


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 09:04 PM

MMario, it's easy for me to do, no braggin, just ahve the natural ability coupled with years of family and teachers. I'd be happy to help out, too, so there ya go, ya got two of us, pick yer pie-zen!**BG**


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JudeL
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 09:42 AM

Mmario - I know exactly where you're coming from. I also have tried to learn, I understand the theory of identifying a note as written down, can pick it out on a piano, then either from the relative up's & downs pick out the next note, and I understand the theorys of time values .... I can even (if I know it well and given time) pick out and can hear to correct a melody line. Although the key will rarely be the original. But this is a very laborious process, and I get no sense of tune from the picked out notes, they remain as individual sounds. I cannot sight read, either to play or sing .. but I hvae a reasonably accurate musical memory and an awareness of relative notes or when a note is off pitch, (it sounds right or wrong). But I still can't sightread either to sing or to play music It's like a child who knows their letters but cannot make the jump from that to meaningful words.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 10:07 AM

I think you fellows are making too much work out of it--reading music is a basically mindless activity--you look at the page, and play TaTiTaTiTaah if that is what it says. It is mostly practice and repetition, first to learn what the notes mean, then to make sure you get them right--A lot of people get figetty when they sit down to play, and never learn how to relax and just concentrate on the page--Laugh if you want, but learning a yoga excercise for centering and focussing often does more good here than a stack of books and a line of music teachers.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 11:00 AM

GUEST, I'm with MMario on this one... I can pick out a melody line from the staff onto a keyboard, or more easily onto guitar.. (if there aren't too many shrps or flats).

But I don't now have the patience to invest the time on learning to do it "properly".

I can use notation software to output stuff that's readable as music, and can use it to document things I have composed.

I know that there are many many great musicians who transcend what's "written" to enhance and improvise it.. But I have also met many technically competent musicians who were stumped unless they had "the dots" in front of them.

When it comes to folk music, at least 50% of it is in the interpretation and despite people's efforts at boxing the genre in, there is (In My Not-So_Humble Opinion) no truly "right" and "wrong " way to play it.

In addition, the primary sources for much of the music we discuss here is aural - either from recordings or live performance, so looking for the written music can be futile - sometimes the performer may never have written the music down in a formal fashion. I know several really good songwriters who'd be incapable of doing so. That inability does not diminish their talent.

I have often used "the dots" when I was unsure of how much a performer had ornamented the original melody, - but what I want is that melody. If I want it, I'll take it from there and work it up..

So what's my point? Umm, I suppose I don't appreciate the feeling that I'm being "looked down on" for declining to learn to read music properly. Does everyone who wants to use a computer learn how to program? Err.. no. Does that stop them from being able to use a PC - No. I think the analogy applies to music too.. I would say that my nderstanding of musical theory has been enhanced by using software like NoteWorthy, and I am immensely grateful that it's there.

Cheers

Steven


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 12:49 PM

Nobody is looking down on anybody--the point is only that keyboard technique makes it a lot easier to work with notation/sequencing programs, and that anyone can learn to do it--The best sounding MIDI files tend to come from people who are good keyboardists--check out Lesley Nelson's work at Contemplations if you don't believe me--


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 01:33 PM

Well, Guest

I don't know if you've ever spoken to Lesley?

If you did (and I don't think she'd mind my saying this) she'd tell you that her keyboard skills were limited and that she uses a similar technique as MMario to make up her midis.

Face it guest, your arguement is wrong

Paul


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JudeL
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:01 AM

No guest NOT anyone can learn to do it. It's as if I have a form of musical dyslexia. In general, people who have dyslexia have no problems with pronouncing the words they have learnt by hearing them from others, and they can pick out and identify individual letters. The problem is that they may not always recognise whole words when they are written down and will probably have difficulty pronouncing a word that they see written down that they have not previously heard spoken.

I see my inability to sight read like that. I can (usually) repeat a musical phrase which I have heard by singing it. I can (and usually do) transpose it into a key which is more comfortable for me to sing in. With practice I can play a tune on a keyboard instrument, provided I know what the end product is supposed to sound like. I can even (with a little time) pick out a tune I know. I can identify what each dot on the page means in terms of the key on a piano and the relative amount of time it is played for. What I CANNOT do is look at a page of dots and hear a tune in my head, and if I cannot hear it I cannot play it.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:31 AM

I'm writing some. WAV to display spectrum and a bit of help with the pitch and timing. The whistles and bells are not finished. The basic problem is that people may not sing with perfect pitch and slide and glissando so a finished answer is never the best. My philosophy is to get the PC to do the bits we find hard and leave the judgement to humnans.

PM me here or go to cresby.com and web-mail from there


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: pattyClink
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 03:30 PM

GUEST, STEP OFF!! MMario, please ignore the rude jerk behind the Guest sign. The beauty of notation software is your brain doesn't have to make 2 or 3 or 4 translations: from sound, to note, to finding the note on the instrument, to physically picking or pounding, then back to staff notation. You can write out pure music without being a skilled picker or pounder. And if you have no other reason to learn to pick or pound something, it's a waste of your valuable time and unnecessary brain stress to do it. Keep on transcribing as you see fit and pay no attention to the jerk behind the instrument!


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 04:29 PM

The Sound2MIDI program seems to be defunct. The original home site was a UK company called AudioWorks
AudioWorks Ltd
PO BOX 9099,
London
N20 9BG
Tel: +44(0)181-445 4331
FAX: +44(0)181-445 4442
Internet: http://www.audioworks.com
but the site seems to be gone and I assume the company is as well. I was able to find a demo version of Sound2MIDI from 1998 but nothing more recent.

There are some programs that seem to do the same trick—listen to a music source and generate MIDI—but I haven't yet tried them out. A couple of sites are Solo Explorer and intelliScore.

The idea of being able to sing into your computer's microphone and generate a MIDI is compelling because it would allow everyone here to capture a melody and generate an ABC file to help fill out the melodies in the Digital Tradition. It might also make it more convenient to submit a melody together with lyrics when posting a song to the forum.

I hope some of us can make time to start playing with this capability.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:22 PM

Finale has a feature that's supposed to record notes you play into your computer microphone. I tried singing with laryngitis, and the results were abominable.
Back to the drawing board.
-Joe Offer-


Hi, Patty - don't get too upset about how our Guest insulted our beloved MMario. Note the date of the Guest's posts.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: open mike
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 05:28 PM

those guests comments were made years ago..this thread
has been revived just recently..I have been checking
out the Igor NOteheads programs--more info here--
http://emusician.com/ar/emusic_noteheads_igor_engraver/
and have used a thing called MusicEase to write tunes, too.
http://www.musicease.com/
not sure what the latest versions offer...it has been a
while...since i ch3eckd them out...but you might find somethng
here..


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:22 PM

Hi,
The piece that is missing here is the relationship of notes to a definable scale. Each note represents a numeric approach. The numbers are the pitches.

Here's how to sight-sing.

1.    Learn to sing the major scale:

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 (any starting note or key will do)


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Mar 03 - 06:34 PM

Don't know if this got through. I'll try again.

Major Scale: sing it. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8

Harmonic Minor Scale: sing it 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7,8

Natural Minor Scale: sing it 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7,8

It's important that you hear how the minor scales are altered by the b's (flats) from the major scale. sing em, sing 'em, sing 'em.

Now when you can hear those scales, the next step is to learn the key signatures for sharp and flat keys. (This is the hard part)

Once you know that then you look at the dots...find the key and write the numbers above or below the notes. Then sing 'em.

So if you are for example in the key of D, you gotta' know that it contains two sharps, F# and C#. So: D is 1, E is 2, F# is 3, G is 4, A is 5, B is 6, C# is 7 and the high D is 8.
                                                                                             3   (etc.)
                                                                                       2
When singing these numbers I like to space them: 1

Reading the rhythm is a whole different topic.

You may not be able to apply the above information without help. But that's the road map. When you see the pitch relationship in the notes as defined as a pitch number, then you're hot on the trail.

Frank


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:22 AM

I think that is part of my problem - I can *sing* the scales - but can't "hear" them.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: CapriUni
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:30 AM

I think that is part of my problem - I can *sing* the scales - but can't "hear" them.

Same here, MMario. It's easy enough to sing: "1, 2, 3,..." because I've already heard the scale, and I know how it's supposed to sound.

But ask me to sing with flats and sharps mixed in, or worse yet, sing something like: "1, 5, 3, 7, 2, 6, 8," and I get lost. I can sing the first note okay (if it is in fact, middle C), but I can't jump from that to E with any accuracy -- until I hear someone sing it, then I can sing it back.

I have a voice-to-midi program called Akoff Music Composer, and it's pretty good... I don't have perfect picth, and so I slide around the notes a lot, and if I breathe on the microphone wrong, that registers as extra notes, too... but then I convert the .wav to midi, import the midi to Noteworthy, and then edit out all the notes I don't want, and tweak the pitches and timing, etc.

One neat thing about Akoff: it shows a mini piano keyboard at the bottom, and as you sing a note, the corresponding key on the piano flashes green. It's humiliating, sometimes, when I'm reminded just how off my singing is -- when it turns out I'm not singing the note I think I am. But if I took the time to really practice with it, my pitch would very likely improve.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 02:40 AM

I quickly checked out the available software at hitsquad,com and selected a couple of freeware examples, GoMinimal and Wave Goodbye, the latter havibg a very informative site, saying inter alia that the human voice is among the hardest instruments to decode because it's so rich in harmonics.

Must admit that when I last investigated the crop a couple of years ago there were a lot of extravagant claims but bugger all substance.

I'll report back when I've had a good look at these two freebies.

Regards, John


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 09:18 AM

Joe Offer

precisely why I took the approach I did. Present the data in a different form that can be understood off-line as it were. Singing or records are momentary. Slowing things down doesn't always work and you have to know the note. I chose to display the spectrum so that harmonics become apparent and they are the confirmation of any guess. Shame I have not finished it, watch this space. I did finish one version but it is DOS and was limited to one obscure sampling frequency.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 10:32 AM

I did have a copy of Sound2Midi, but I didn't find it very useful. It just about worked from a whistle or other instrument with a fairly clear waveform and fixed note registration, but was virtually useless for my voice, it was slightly better for a clear female voice (less overtones). The program was not capable of working out a time signature and as far as I remember didn't have any metronome feature which it would really need to be able to perform correct quantization.

I can read music, but I find it more difficult writing it. If you do have a simple score-writing program, it is sometimes easiest to put the notes in and move them around until you get the right pitch. Start off by working out the basic time signature - this will usually be 4/4 for common/march time or 3/4 waltz time (6/8 time is only a more convenient way of notating a fast waltz time). If you really can't distinguish a time signature, try marching around while you're singing it - if you can't manage to - it's probably waltz time so try waltzing to it. You should be able to work out the start of each bar by singing the tune and working out where the beat is - marching or waltzing to the tune can help. You can then mark these off on the words and start tryng to work out the times values of notes - rhythms tend to repeat, so often when you work out one line others will be similiar.

If you play the guitar, you should be able to find the tonic key reasonably easily - just find out which chord seems to be the right one to start on. If not use a piano or other instrument to find the pitch - it's probably easiest to work it out from the last note which is most likely to be the tonic.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JudeL
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:02 AM

CapriUni, this Ackoff program sounds very interesting. Have you any idea where might I find a copy & what sort of cost?


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM

Ackkoff


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 05:34 AM

Dave - just a technical point. Most tunes written in 6/8 are usually played as two groups of three notes and so produce a quick march with two steps to the bar rather than a waltz. Jigs in 6/8 also fall into the pattern of two triplets.
Quack!
GtD.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: belfast
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

As regards scales and intervals. When I was learning (attempting to learn) sight-reading and suchlike I found it helped to identify certain intervals with the opening notes of certain songs. The first two notes of "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" gives an octave. The first two notes of "Here Comes The Bride" is a perfect fourth. A sixth, "My Bonny Lies Over The Ocean" or "I Did It My Way". The first four notes of numberless songs (MacColl's "Travelling People") for examples form a major chord. Even unusual intervals like a minor seventh can be found – the opening notes of "Who Fears To Speak Of '98".

Despite this I am still useless at transcribing or reading without a guitar or keyboard to guide me.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: NicoleC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 04:38 PM

But ask me to sing with flats and sharps mixed in, or worse yet, sing something like: "1, 5, 3, 7, 2, 6, 8," and I get lost. I can sing the first note okay (if it is in fact, middle C), but I can't jump from that to E with any accuracy -- until I hear someone sing it, then I can sing it back.

Suggestion -- think of scales in terms of an orderly sequence of steps instead of a set of specific notes. If you can find the tonic and hear the difference between a half step and a whole step, you can figure out the scale. And once you have the scale figured out, you can start to think in terms of intervals instead of hitting a particular note in a scale. Each mode has it's own structure of steps and half steps.

For example, a C major scale is: CDE_FGAB_C
OR -- whole step, whole step, half-step, whole step, whole step, whole step, half-step

A D major scale is: DEF#_GABC#_D
same pattern!

A minor scale is:
whole step, half-step, whole step, whole step, half-step, whole step whole step

For example, A minor:
AB_CDE_FGA

Voila! If you know the structure, you can sing any scale. Now if you are singing in C Major, you can think of going from C to E as two whole steps, instead of trying to just know the right note when you see it on the page. Then the next note is just and interval and the one after that one... Or, "I come in a half step above that note right there..."

Anyway, it helps me relate a sound to the dots on the page.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:35 PM

That's something I've never been able to connect - what an "A" or "C" or "F-sharp" sounds like...not to the point of being able to recognize them.


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:00 AM

MMario: it is very difficult to describe, but my best offer is that only those with "Absolute Pitch" can identify a single note in isolation. With most people (as with Nicole's comments above) it is a matter of "Relative pitch", i.e. you have a basis for comparison.
One of the best examples of 'relative pitch' which most people will be able to identify is when listening to a favourite album. If you are singing along, you know the pitch at which the next song starts without thinking about it. You may not know the note name, or whether it is a Third, or a minor fifth, above the last note of the previous song, but your subconscious has the details. If you stop the album before the song starts,and start singing, you will usually find that when you re-start it you are in tune. However, try to sing the same song later without the advance clues and you will usually find yourself off key.
Hope this clarifies.

Nigel


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: Blues=Life
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 08:00 AM

For some reason, I'm finding this conversation fascinating. The differences between the "Can"s and the "Can't"s really are something. The "Can Sight Read" crowd seem to think the "Can't Sight Read" folks just aren't trying hard enough. There are different gifts, you know. Also, as an excellent musician I know says, you either see music as a keyboard or as a fretboard. I think it might be easier to sight read when you see music as a keyboard, in a linear fashion. But, please, remember, different horses for different courses. The music director at my church likes to joke: "How do you get a guitarist to play REAL quietly? Put sheet music in front of him." Ha-Ha, funny. However, when I wanted to sing something in a different key once, the keyboardist and the pianist both protested. "You can't just change keys like that, we don't have the music!" "Yeah," I responded,"but I've got a capo!" (I had to sing it too high, they couldn't change.)

My point? YOUR way is not necessarily THE way, and it's good to remember that when dealing with other musicians.

A "CAN'T", and darn (kindof) proud of it!
*G*
Blues
(A face for radio, a voice for mime!)


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: NicoleC
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM

I'm with you, MMario. The only note I can recognize is an "A," and that's only because I recognize it as the same pitch as a telephone dial tone :) I used to be able to recognize the exact frequency of feedback, which you would think could be mentally translated easily into a musical note... not so! Or rather only with a conscious mental effort to make the translation ala 512 = C. Different part of the brain, I think, and different part of hearing. I FEEL frequency (bone conduction), I HEAR music (air conduction)...

I think *anyone* can learn to sight read or play by ear or learn pitch -- it isn't some mystical talent -- but some folks are simply better at one way or the other. And most of us play music because it's fun -- does it really matter how you get there?


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: GUEST,An
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 01:07 PM

Recently I've come in a phase where I really want to be able to read music, mainly because as a singing teacher I constantly have to expand my repertoire. And it feels like being a child all over again. It is terribly frustrating. I used a childrens programme on the pc, called Music Ace. For basic reading it was excellent, but there seem to be so many ways to grow from there and so many ways of approaching the whole theory thing... A friend of mine said something that I wanted to share with you, because my suspicion is that the 'Cants' of this thread are in the same boat. He said: "You do know your music theory. You just haven't defined it." And there have been times when I thought that it is more important to have an instinct for music than to have a grade 8 in theory. When I write or improvise music, I don't get lost in possible chord structures and key changes, because I have to rely on listening to the music inside of me and surrounding me- there are no formal rules available to me to (mis)guide me. I do realise that instrumentalists have a harder time than singers to play by ear, and I have tremendous admiration for people who know their theory. When I write together with my friend who has such an incredible knowledge of theory, we have a good combination, because we complement eachother through our different approaches. I say thank god that we have both Can'ts and Cans. We need them both!
An


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:14 PM

I haven't seen a program that provides a good solution to "singing in" music and getting dots out. The Ackkoff linked above by MMario (at 17 Mar 03 - 11:08 AM) may be as good as any (I haven't tried it); but their notes indicate 60 to 70% accuracy as the best obtainable for single note input (a melody only), which is not really as good as most people can probably do "by ear."

I see a lot of concern about "I can't recognize a C# or a Bb," but this is perhaps more of a concern than it needs to be.

Most tunes are played on, within, and around, a scale that usually doesn't even include all the notes in a full diatonic octave. Most who can play by ear probably have one or two keys that they find easiest. ANY melody can be notated in any key, and nearly all notation programs can transpose it later, if needed.

When I notate "by ear," I nearly always do it in a C-major key signature: no sharps and flats to worry about - especially if I'm using a midi keyboard for input. Rarely, I may start in G or D if its something I've played on mando a lot in one of those keys, but C is the simplest.

If you know a tune well enough to "hum" it, you can usually "set your ear" by "rolling" a standard chord progression in the key you're going to use and then immediatel starting to hum the tune to "match the sound." For a typical tune, a few repetitions of:
"C E G C E G F A c F A c G B d G B d c G E C"
will "set" your brain to the C scale, and the tune will fall into that key signature fairly easily.

Playing the strummed chord movement C F G C may be enough to "get you in key," but playing the individual notes as arpegiated (separated notes in sequence) chords will help a lot in placing the melody notes in the right relation to each other. (Of course, if you know the "correct" chord progression for the tune, use that in place of the I IV V I above.)

The key to training yourself to notate melodies is that dirty word "PRACTICE," and that means practicing SCALES. Guitarists, especially, who may be quite at home with strummed chords need to practice playing the individual notes in the chords as well as the strums. Ideally, you should be able to start on any note and instinctively play the first five notes, up and back down, of at least the major, minor, and dim scales beginning on that note, at will. (Easy to say - harder to do.)

Note that the above applies with emphasis to vocalists, who should be able to sing the first 5 notes of each of these scales when they hear the chord on a piano - for any note in their range.

As with anything, some find it easier than others. Anyone can improve, with practice; but this is not at all a necessary thing for many. Doing something well ofen makes it more fun to do, but there is the old office adage - "Don't get good at something you don't like doing."

John


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Subject: RE: TECH: Sing it in, get dots out
From: MMario
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 02:18 PM

singing it is no problem...

but for example - even with tunes I wrote myself - I can't tell you what the realtionships are between any two of the notes without sitting down and counting staff lines, etc.


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