Cornish Songs

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Flash Company
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 10:12 AM

I had, and may still have somewhere, a book of Cornish songs which included 'One and All' and a version of 'The Tithe Pig'.
I'll hava a look up the cupboard and see if it's still there.

FC

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: breezy
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:44 AM

Cornish Dialect and Folk Songs by Ralph Dunston could well have used by Mr Penna, former teacher at Padstow Primary, Organist at St Petroc.

He taught the kids 12 songs from it and they performed it publicly in 1990. My daughter was in the chorus, aged 10-11.

I was given a copy by chance by another source shortly after and I was able to learn and perform The Tinners and once did Truro Agricultural Show

R D also was editor of the Cornish Song Book

Mo Keist ' Little Mo' to us sings Cornish Kitchen

Cornish lads By Roger B is becoming more widely sung out of county.

A new song to emerge is a song of Transportation to Slavery in Virginia by Ray Delf of Padstow

Does Larry Mac's Queen of the May deserve inclusion, and also how about Steve Knightley's Cousin Jack?

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 11:51 AM

just quickly while i get 10 mins on the internet..

my memory has been jogged about seeing Brenda Wooton live in the mid 70's when i was a teenager.
I cant remembe why i liked her or even what her music sounded like
[solo.. band.. ???]
i'm fairly certain she had a regular tv spot at the time
[fred wedlock show.. her own show..???]
and was prominent for singing in cornish,
maybe one of the last remaining fluent cornish speakers back then..?

i've not been able to find any useful info on internet,
so any info and links to sound files would be appreciated..
thanks....

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 12:49 PM

Does anyone have dots or tab for 'Song of the Western Men/ Trelawney'?

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: hilda fish
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 07:58 PM

Bucca had Neil Davey and his wife Hilary. Ån Lader is Cornish translated into English.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 08:39 PM

Any further information about Ån Lader/The Robber? I can't be sure what song you mean just from those titles. A version of Newlyn (Newry) Town/Wild and Wicked Youth? I've come across a modern translation into Cornish of a Sovay text, set to a Robber tune, but presumably that isn't what was meant here?

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Mick Tems
Date: 30 Jan 05 - 09:30 PM

The late, great Bucca - not just Neil Davey but Merv Davey. Merv and his wife Alison form the duo Pyba (bagpipes and drum) and are the proud parents of the duo Scoot, who appeared at Cwlwm Celtaidd (the Welsh Celtic festival) at Porthcawl this year. Merv and Alison evolved the Perranporth festival, the lovely, magic Lowender Peran - would that I could go back there, I miss it so much. The Daveys live at the Cornish village of Withiel.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: hilda fish
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:41 AM

Dr. Price are you Cornish/from Cornwall? Neil is a great personal friend along with his partner, Hilary. Sterenn, Merv & Ålison's daughter was staying with me while she was studying at Sydney Uni as an exchange student from Exeter. Neil lives at Carn ?rae near Redruth. Thus the question, are you Cornish? I've had severe exposure to Cornish music through many friends who are determined to revive both the language and the culture of this Celtic nation. The music and the dancing is an essential part of this cultural revival and the Davey's have been a very important part of that.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Mingulay at work
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 04:11 AM

To Guest punkfolkrocker, Brenda Wooton appeared with a guitarist called John the Fish in the 60's/70's. A large lady with an even bigger personality and voice to match. My vinyl heap used to contain an LP, must check it out. She was very Cornish my handsome.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: robinia
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:09 AM

I'd like to add my appreciation of "Trelawney" as a great song, with great historical roots.   I first saw a slight modification of the chorus (i.e. "and shall Trelawney die and shall Trelawney die, then twenty thousand Cornishmen will know the reason why") printed in a history book as the reputed "marching cry" for the "men of the west" when James II imprisoned and threatened to behead six bishops (including Trelawney, from Cornwall) for refusing to read from the pulpit a Declaration of Indulgence (it would have allowed Catholics to hold public office!). This uprising did not in fact occur; it didn't have to, as the six bishops, tried for seditious libel, were acquitted "amid great popular enthusiasm"; and shortly thereafter, in the "Glorious revolution" of 1688 James fled the country.
Anyway, reading all this I remember thinking what a great song that "marching cry" would make -- only to discover, when I got to Cornwall that (along with "the White Rose") it was practically the Cornish "national anthem"! Nobody remembered just what the song was about ("the closing of the tin mines?") but they loved its spirit. I guess you could call it Cornish chauvinism.
There's also local pride (Cornwall versus neighboring Devon!) in another Cornish song with a great chorus: "For it's fish and tin and copper, boys, and tree and pol and pen, and one and all we may rejoice that we are Cornishmen" (which evidently includes the knife-wielding Cornish lass who sends "young Nicholas" fleeing back across the Tamar).   That 's on a "Cornish Folk Song" cassette (Sue White and Gareth Hedges), along with the "Cadgwith Anthem" (sp?), "Lamorna," "Egloshalyle Ringers," the "Truro Agricultural Show," "Camborne Hill" . . . .Anyone know if those two are still singing?

Subject: Lyr Add: FISH AND TIN AND COPPER
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:50 AM

Been meaning to learn this one for the past few years --

FISH AND TIN AND COPPER

Old Nick as he was wont to do
Went wanderin' up and down
To see what mischief he could brew
And made for Launceston-town.

Chorus:        
For 'tis fish and tin and copper, boys,
By Tre- and Pol- and Pen-
And one and all, we may rejoice
That we are Cornishmen.

Across the Tamar he had come.
Now you might think it strange.
For having left his Devon home,
Tried Cornwall for a change.
Chorus

Now when to Launceston he drew near
A-skippin' o'er the sod,
He spied a rustic cottage there
With windows all a-broad.
Chorus

And in the kitchen might be seen
A dame with knife in hand
To cut and slash and chop I ween
To make a pasty grand.
Chorus

"Good Mornin', Missus, what is that?"
"Of all sorts, it is daub.
'Tis beef and mutton, pork and fat,
Potatoes, leeks, and squab."
Chorus

"A Cornish pasty, sure", says she,
"And if thou doesn't mind,
I soon shall start to cut up thee
And put ye in, you'll find!"
Chorus

In fear he turned and straight did flee
Across the Tamar green
And since that day in Cornwall
He has never more been seen!
Chorus

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 11:26 AM

yes - that is one I've been working on as well.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Cats
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

Last heard of Sue was living in Devon, making the occasional foray into our homeland, Cornwall, and Gareth was playing blues in USA. As far as I know they haven't played together for years.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 12:10 PM

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the gorgeous West Cornwall pub song, "Lamorna" ("Away Down to Lamorna"). I was stunned when I first heard the recording of this by an uncredited singer--it's the late great Cornish singer Brenda Wootton--on the following site.

http://www.trelawnys-army.org.uk/ta/tasongs.html

While the song is originally an English music hall number, there is a Cornish-language version. See discussion thread in the archive...I won't attempt to summon it as I'm afraid of losing this message. (Not real adept at making links I fear)

Bob

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Snuffy
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:33 PM

Is that the Sue White who's now a stalwart of Bideford Folk Club, and is also into Border Morris dancing?

"Lamorna" is originally an English music hall number about the Pomona pleasure gardens in Manchester and had bugger all to do with Cornwall until some deaf idots misheard the name, in the same way as Country & Western became "some c*** from Weston".

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: robinia
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:03 AM

Yes, "Lamorna" is obviously of English music hall origin and a great chorus (pub) song -- high time I learned it, if only to teach Americans to clap along with the "wet, wet, wet" in the chorus here:
   
    Twa-a-a-a-s [lo-o-o-ong lead-in] down in Albert Square,
    I never shall forget
    Her eyes they shone like diamonds
    And the evening it was wet, wet, wet;
    Her hair hung down in curls
    She was a charming rover
    And we ro'ed all night in the pale moonlight
    Away down to Lamorna

Maybe someone else will post the verses? (about picking up a woman who turns out to be your wife -- the song manages to be both naughty and moral, very English somehow, so I almost forgot it was on my "Cornish" cassette).

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Marion in Cornwall
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:10 AM

Hi robinia,

Lamorna has already been posted, along with a midi-file, just click on the link below (I hope!).

Regards
Marion

Lamorna

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:55 AM

Here's an older broadside version Lyr Add: DOWN TO POMONA

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 05:09 PM

Thanks Snuffy for the Pomona post.

Must say I've learned to tread carefully in traditional-music turf wars. Thus when I suggested the song "Lamorna" on 31 January I was careful to say it was of English music hall origin. I was then, and am now, aware of everything that's been said on the forum concerning its origin, pretty definitively, in the Manchester music hall, with Pomona Gardens, and a possible London stage career as well.

In short, I was aware that "Lamorna" did not originate in Cornwall, and maybe should have been a little more expansive on the point. But I didn't think I needed to; it had all been said already.

But this isn't the first time I've run into "song rage" over whom this song in particular "belongs to." So I want to ask what the problem is. Is there a Manchester contingent feeling cheated of its song? I doubt it.

Nobody seems to argue over competing variants of other songs going native in other places...say, Streets of Laredo being more or less valid than "The Bad Girl." Would anybody much mind if a version turned up called "Streets of Nogales," or attempt to argue that it has "bugger all" to do with either?

I guess this goes to the heart of what the folk process is about... Help, help, I hope we're not about to slap a lid on creative change, because folks, when you do that, you just left the world of traditional song.

Must say I was surprised by the comeback, and hope we can be a touch more gentle with each other. But maybe that's me. Confrontation suits some folks' style, but I for one would rather endlessly repeat for the benefit of those who don't know than slam a newcomer making a contribution however uninformed.

Pomona? Lamorna? I happen to sing the less original Lamorna version because, all honors to Manchester and Pomona, I like Lamorna better. I don't really think I need a better reason, where two competing versions, each equally traditional, are available.

The DT and Forum were built on the spirit of inquiry and gently helpful interchange...and for the most part that still happens. Those of you interested in the topic may want to sample the Jerry Rasmussen-originated (hi Jerry) "Has the Folk Community Changed" thread. Bob

Bob

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Snuffy
Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:40 PM

Sorry if you found my contributions confrontational, Bob: they were not meant to be.

If you look in the other thread, you'll find I say that whatever it's origins may have been, Lamorna now is a Cornish song. The fact that it has achieved Cornishness by naturalisation rather than by birth may well be known to both you and me, and has been said already in the other thread.

You say I for one would rather endlessly repeat for the benefit of those who don't know slam a newcomer making a contribution however uninformed - that was my intention here, to repeat, not to slam.

And like you, I think a century of folk processing has produced an improvement on the original. But the original is still the original.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Padstow Pete
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 10:20 AM

I love unite and unite cos lots of folk get the tune wrong

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Cats
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 04:34 PM

Except those of us who only sing it in Padstow on May Day. 'Oss 'Oss

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Com Seangan
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 07:43 PM

Nothing further to say but that I am delighted that the old Cornish songs in their nown Celtic language still survives. Their language "P" Celtic belongs to the Welsh family rather than the "Q" variety of the Scots and Irish.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Hawker
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 08:18 PM

If you want Cornish tunes, as well as those mentioned by Cats, try Fooch! Favourite Cornish Session and dance tunes Vol1 chosen and played by Neil Davey. Excellent - it comes with an accompanying CD which plays the tune at a slower speed first then at session speed! Great for musical novices like myself. Songs - Well! My wounderful husband Kevin Burrow has been singing Cornish songs since he could sing. He knows lots of them. He learned in the oral tradition and so his original was the person what he learned it off (whose original was probably who they learned it off etc. so what was the original.... or did you mean the taken down version snuffy?)
Sorry to be a bit picky about that Snuffy darling, but I do feel quite strongly that as a living tradition, we must accept each persons interpretation.... so long as it bears semblance of the original - no matter which we prefer! Hope to see you at Miskin. perhaps we can have a Cornish singaround and see who runs out first ...... That'll be me I guess, being an emmet. There is a song penned by myself about NOT being Cornish and living in Cornwall called The Emmet Song.
I am a little concerned that Ian Marshall thinks he is the only person in Cornwall taking Cornish song singing seriously - although we tend not to be too serious when we are singing! Perhaps he ought to get out a little ;0)
I also agree that Moe Keast doesnt get the credit she deserves, then there is Vic and Viv Legg, Thorn & Roses / Sylvia & Rowena, All of the Cornwall Songwriters, and a huge amount of other people all very very proud not just of the songs but that they are able to sing them.
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Padstow Pete
Date: 02 Feb 05 - 11:53 PM

Yes "Cats" very true, though I don't mind the visitors gettin the tune wrong as long as they bloody well try it and not just gawk. Wee 'Oss.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Snuffy
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 08:41 AM

Lucy,

It looks to me that people are getting on their high horses and reading into my posts things that just aren't there. Nowhere do I express any opinion whatsoever on what people should or should not sing - I restricted myself to factual matters about where the song came from.

My point was merely that, in a discussion on Cornish Songs it was relevant to point out that this song started off without the slightest trace of Cornishness, and only acquired it by the accidental or deliberate change of Pomona to Lamorna. By this change it has come to be perceived by both Cornish people and the world at large as a Cornish song

Once a song enters the tradition it can develop in surprising ways, and only a fool would try to proscribe this development on grounds of purity: let a thousand flowers bloom. By the original I referred to the song as the writer made it, whether in 1594, 1894 or 1994 - in the state it was at the very start of the chain, not at any other stage in its transmission.

I do not, and probably never will, sing the Pomona version. However, I have for years sung Lamorna and intend to continue doing so for many years to come. But I also reserve the right to point out when I sing it that it is only Cornish by adoption and used to come from much further north!

See you at Miskin, if not before - I'm down for breakfast kitchen skivvy again. Who knows, I might get promoted to plongeur

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Hawker
Date: 03 Feb 05 - 12:22 PM

Snuffs, stop getting sniffy, you know I'm always a little tongue in cheek, not having a go at all, and if I hadn't said it you can guarantee somebody else would - just like your comment about Pomona - I just enjoy singing and you do sing 'em well! You can dry my dishes and I'll dry yours - perhaps we can write that dishwashing shanty we all kept on about all weekendsee you soon,
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Snuffy
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 08:17 AM

You mean yellow marigolds instead of blood red roses?

And we can compare our Cornish versions of oxen ploughing.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Tradsinger
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 02:46 PM

One of my favourite Cornish songs is "Maggie May", not the sea-shanty one but the sentimental one "My darling witchy Maggie". Lovely song.

I also love the singing style in Cornwall, i.e. unaccompanied part singing, plus the way they bring in new songs and make them sound Cornish, such as "Da doo ron ron" and "Sloop John B". I heard a great rendition of "The Rose" in the London Inn last Padstow - unaccompanied and sung in parts of course. There are also the great songs that Larry McLoughlin of Padstow is writing, especially "Queen of the May" which has entered into oral tradition in Padstow.

Gwilym

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Onlooker
Date: 04 Feb 05 - 04:13 PM

Someone asked what had happened to Sue White - as far as I know she is still around and singing, although the last I heard she was intending to live abroad -whether this is now the case I know not. She does, however, have a website which might give more info. At present can't remember what the address is, but the words Cornishsinger will probably find it on Google!

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Colin Roberts
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 05:19 AM

I'm a Cornishman now living in Australia. I'm looking for words and music to a range of Cornish folk songs I can sing and play on guitar. Can anyone help?

Colin

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 07 Feb 05 - 05:41 PM

The best version of Maggie May that I have heard is sung by Moe Keast, who can be heard at Bodmin Folk Club most Fridays. She also sings in Cornish.
I don't know if she has ever recorded her songs.
Mary

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: BB
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 02:19 PM

Moe got her version from Charlie Bate.

Barbara

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Cats
Date: 08 Feb 05 - 06:20 PM

Mo has recorded some of her songs, Mike O'Connor put them down for her at Lyngham House Music.

Colin - I suggest you log on to the Lyngham House website where you will find lists of books which Mike has collated and published as well as his own work and that of Cornwall Songwriters. You'll find plenty there.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:23 PM

i THINK you mean janner not jagger. We still say Janner to mean farmer od in the RN to mean Cornishman. I've nevder hear anyone say Jagger in 24 years but we still refer to farmers as bring 'bleddy janner's"

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Rene
Date: 28 May 05 - 03:20 PM

Fascinating page. Enjoyed all the argy-bargy, but learned a lot.
Why does Richard Guest suddenly post `Cadgwith Anthem` and `Floral Dance?` I couldn`t see relevance to earlier posts.
I`ll wait patiently for a reply, as the site seems to come alive only every few months. X

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Sue the Borderer
Date: 31 May 05 - 06:12 PM

Just came across this thread and read Snuffy's question of 31st Jan about 'Sue White'. No - there are two of us. I'm the Bideford one and into Border Morris. The 'other one' was on the scene long before me. It took me a while - and some very blank looks on my part when I got asked strange questions - to discover there were 'two of us'.

Sue White

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,cornish man ooooaaaarrrrr
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 02:43 PM

does anyone know the lyrics to truro agiricultral show

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Cats
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 03:00 PM

If you go to www.an-daras.com/music you will find it along with the historical background and the dots. This is a good source for cornish songs.

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: breezy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 07:33 PM

yes, and its on my 4th Volume made in 1989 along with the Tinner Boys

'So its off to Truro we must go to se the agericultural show'

that one

Sunday St Albans at the Comfort Hotel. Windward folk Club.

main attraction
the delightful
Liz Somcock


down boys

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: breezy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 07:34 PM

Ahem

Liz Simcock

thank you

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: breezy
Date: 27 Jan 06 - 07:42 PM

its the cornish in me

ever had any in you?

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: Lady Nancy
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 07:41 AM

What about "the Ascott of Tetcott" which is a hunting song wherein the fox gets his revenge.... And it mentions places like Whitstone, Poundstock, St Ghennys (apologies for spelling if wrong) Ive got the words and the tune, but am actually missing two lines.... Used to sing it in the late '70s in a harmony group. Good song. But is it the right county?

Lady Nancy x

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: BB
Date: 28 Jan 06 - 01:14 PM

Great song, even if it is 'ARscott of Tetcott', rather than 'Ascott'. Tetcott is actually just in Devon, but Whitstone, Poundstock and St. Gennys are just over the border in Cornwall. Jim Causley has recorded it, and sings it really well. (Wish we'd got there first!) There's also a song called 'The St. Gennys Hunt', although I can't remember the details just now.

Barbara

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 08:32 AM

I lived in Cornwall for some 7 years but, long before that, my misspent youth included regular Saturday evening visits to Cecil Sharpe House where I also heard Jack and Margaret King's rendition of "Gor Bugger Jagger".
On the subject of "The Oggie Man", I have often wondered at the several interesting similarities between that song and "Die Leiermann" from "Die Winterreisse".

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 09:00 AM

The aforementioned Cornish song book, although not really containing a vast amount of 'traditional' material is still a great place to go. I was born in Devon in 1953 but my mun is a Tonkin from Falmouth and we spent a large amount of our early years in Cornwall. My family are also Methodists and very musical and we actually did used to spend time around the piano as a family singing songs from the book. I recently was in Falmouth clearing out my aged Aunts house and found her copy which is in far better condition than mine. We also took charge of the fine old broadwood upright which now resides in my sisters house for another generation of of kids to learn music on. I've just been working with Exeter singer Dave Lowrey who aslo has a great affection for the book and has recorded 'The Cornish Smuggler' from it. In conversation with Cyril Tawney before he passed away, he also indicated a similar early exposure to music in precisely same way. There are plenty of copies still to be found if you search the old bookshops. Might base an album around it one day---

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: kimsky
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 09:13 AM

if you visit the Elowen myspace page, you'll find 2 contemporary Cornish songs - Oll an Gerriow/Noze Looan is widely played (not so widely sung) enjoy

http://www.myspace.com/elowenfolk

I know - shameless self-promotion!

Subject: RE: CORNISH SONGS
From: thimblerigg
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 10:16 AM

Having spent several years researching the songs collected by the Rev Sabine Baring-Gould, I have followed a Cornish thread that has led me to songs that as far as I know are not shall we say in common usage at present. These are being added to a growing pile that I am convinced are unique to Cornwall.
The folk site www.wovenwheatwhispers.co.uk published an article I wrote titled 'Songs Unique to Cornwall'. Since writing the aricle which was based around the songs from my CD 'By Chance it Was', I am this year starting to perform the newly found songs here in Cornwall.

I am convinced there must be other sources, as Phil Beer says check out the book shops somewhere there must be some unsung gems waiting for an airing

Subject: RE: Cornish Songs
From: Celtaddict
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:28 PM

On our side of the Pond, Jim Wearne is still going strong, is a Bard of the Cornish Gorseth, and has a new website address
Jim Wearne's Cornish Page

Subject: RE: Cornish Songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 25 Mar 08 - 04:33 PM

100 ??