Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle

Subject: "Springfield Rifle"
From: X
Date: 20 Nov 01 - 03:21 PM

Can anyone help me with the chords and lyrics to a tune entitled "Springfield Rifle"? Thank you.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 10:58 AM

Can't help but what era does it come from and has it been recorded. I'd be interested in seeing the lyrics myself, Neil

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: X
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 12:34 PM

Dear Irish Sgt, I heard it done by a bluegrass band about 20 years ago on a radio show in San Diego, California. It was about a platoon of U.S. Horse Solders going into Mexico looking for Poncho Villa and how splendidly the Springfield performed, even if the U.S. Dragoons didn't.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 05:25 PM

That would be the M-1903 Springfield, cal. .30 (".30-'06"), a legendary weapon if there ever was one.

Sorry; never heard of the song - but add my name to the Irish Sgt.s as one who would be interested if it ever does turn up.

We do have a copy of "The Corporal's Musket" written by a Maine Civil War Officer about the musket his Grandfather carried in the Rev. War. I seem to recall doing a "Lyr Add" here a couple of years ago for it - an interesting song to be sure, and one we don't hear all that often any more.

There have been times I've contemplated doing an album of gun - related songs / ballads; somehow I don't think it would be much of a hit with the "Folkie" crowd (PC thing don't ye see) and I don't do "C&W" worth a diddle. Every time I try to whine melodicly out my nose, boogers pop out and it's kinda gross...

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 09:55 PM

G'day Uncle Jaque,

Actually, it could also be a number of 19th century rifles that were made a Springfield Arsenal, such as the 'Trapdoor Spribgfield', an early breechloading conversion.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: GUEST,The Banjoest
Date: 21 Nov 01 - 11:56 PM

It was the '06 Springfield, the american copy of the Enfield, which in turn was a copy of the Mauser. The Trapdoor was a .47-70 and was loaded from the top thru a "trapdoor", a very weak desing. The '06 was chambered for the .30-'06, the '06 being the year it was adopted by the U.S. Army. The song I'm looking for was in praise of the new round, the flat shooting, hard hitting .30 cal. Ball and the new rifle that shot it, not the old slow 500gr. lead bullet of 1873 and the side hammered rifle that shot it. I shoot both rifles and like each one but if I had to go into Mexico looking for Poncho, the '06 would be the one I would sling.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 12:13 AM

Bob: As I recall, the Pancho Villia Mexican "Revolution" so-called ( I guess old Pancho would qualify as a "Terrorist" these days) happened around 1915.

This was pretty much the "swan song" of the U.S. mounted Cavalry as a viable tactical branch of the Military. Horse Soldiers (I think the term "Dragoon" had become pretty much obsolete by the end of the Civil War) at least the US Regulars, were typically armed with the 1903 bolt-action Springfield rifle (the .30-40 KRAG was the last Army weapon to be issued in seperate Infantry "Rifle" and Cavalry "Carbine" configurations). The saber had been replaced, at least for Enlisted Cavalrymen, with the then-standard issue 17" blade bayonet, and the venerable (then brandy-new) M-1911 "Army .45" semi-automatic pistol was the regulation sidearm.

By 1915 the Regular Army had pretty much switched over to the M-1903 from the M-1896 "Krag" of Spanish-American War fame, and the State National Guard Units had generally scrapped the old "Trapdoor" .45-70 blackpowder single shot breechloading muskets & Carbines (such as the ill-fated Custer/ 7th Cav. Expediton was armed with at Little Big Horn) for the hand-me-down Krags. Most of the "trapdoors" (so named because of their front-hinged breechblock which lifted up at the rear for ejection of the fired case and reloading)were sold as surplus to outfits like "Bannermans" of NY City. Back then you could pick one up for the price of a good cigar; today a decent Infantry trapdoor will fetch up around $1,000 and Carbine, depending on vintage, much more.

Oddly, even though many of the American Military arms were designed and made at the Springfield Armory (as you correctly point out)since the early part of the 19th Century (I could look up the exact date if you're interested), the Model 1903 and it's WW-II version the M-1903-A3 (plus a few other variations such as the "Sniper" rifle seen on "Pvt. Ryan") were the only ones popularly and reverently (among Target Shooters and Old Marines, anyway) known as "The Springfield". Essentially a modification of the German Mauser design, the Springfield earned a reputation for ruggedness, reliability, long range accuracy, and knock-down power (as well as shoulder-bruising recoil).

With the advent of the M-16, US military weapons were and continue to be "contracted out" and Government Armories such as Springfield are a thing of the past. I understand that it is now a National Historical Site, and hope to visit the famous Museum there some day.

Who knows; perhaps they have a copy of the song!

I have heard a contemporary sort-of-C/W song which I think was called "The Gringo Pistolliero"; It was pretty neat, and I wish I remembered who did it - never heard it again. It was based on the "Pancho" affair, and involved what i think was a fictional story of a US Army Officer who takes up the challange of a Mexican Banditto to a gunfight; the "Gringo" steals into the enemy camp, having taken out his Sentry 600 yards away on a hilltop with "..a bullet from the Springfield of the Gringo Pistolliero", and proceeds to whip serious butt on the bad guys with his brace of 1911's. Both weapons were actually quite capable of that sort of performance in the hands of a competent Shootist. Of course our Hero then rides off to the North with the fair Senioritta in less time than it takes to reload.

Could this possibly be the same song?

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 12:51 AM

Banjoist: There was a very good article on the early Springfields in the "American Rifleman" (Monthly publication of the NRA with which you may well be familiar), particularly the experimental "ramrod bayonet" version. At first, this rifle was chambered for the ".30-'03" cartridge. Previously, in the era of black powder propellants, typical cartrige nomenclature consisted of the "caliber" or nominal bore diameter expressed in hundreths of an inch; ".45", ".32" etc., followed by the powder charge expressed in grains (1/7000 of an Ounce) of black powder. Thus ".45-70" implied a 45/100" diameter bullet over a charge of 70 grains of black powder. Sometimes the weight of the bullet was stuck after that, (.45-70/500) but you won't see that very often. The "Krag" took a ".30-40" cartridge, but that was the end of the reign of black powder in Military small-arms, and the cleaner-burning nitrocellulose "smokeless" propellants were not as consistant in weight/volume ratios as black, so the old system would no longer do.

For the new high-power "Springfield", the cartridge (essentially a copy of the German 8 X 57 Millimeter - Europe was Metric and doing it's own thing with cartridge designations) was named aptly enough ".30 (3/10ths of an inch caliber)- '03" (abbreviation of the YEAR in which it was adopted for US Military Service. Now in 1906 they decided to change the bullet weight and shape a little, so the Army re-designated the round the ".30-'06"... and so it is to this day! So the expression "Ought-Six" referrs not so much to the rifle, as to the still popular and capable ammunition which it was designed to fire.

The "European" ammo designator referrs to the caliber in MM X the length of the brass casing (which is consistant; different bullet styles will effect overall length of the complete cartridge). Our "Modern" Military now uses the metric system, and so .30 cal. is now "7.62 MM" and .22 (M-16 etc.) "5.56 MM".

Shotgun "Guage" usually refers to how many lead spheres (balls) which will fit in the barrel it would take to make a pound. Thus, a "12-guage" is bigger than a "16-guage"... which is about .69" caliber, about the same as the bore on the Charleville muskets used in the Revolution, the round-ball lead projectiles of which weigh about an ounce. Go figure!

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: X
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 03:20 AM

Oh, the 1911's and the 1911-A1's. If there ever was perfection...Well.. The High-Power is fine but that little bullet. Well you know the debate. Hell, I don't care who reads this...I have a brace of 1911's consecutive numbers and two 1911-A1 Remington Rands with consecutive numbers.In the South East Asia Police Action I used an M-14 with a Bosh and then a Rem-700. I hated the Mattel, The 5.56mm, or as we who are no longer U.S.A.S.F. call it,.223 Rem; makes crapy rifle round but it does make a fine pistol round in my T.C.

But that's not what I'm looking for. In the song a Trooper is shooting down hill with a crosswind, so to compensate he "Raies his sights three clicks and two to the right...."

It's a neat song and I looking for it in other places. If I fine it, I'll post it for all you other gun nuts.

Have a Happy Thanksgiving! Hugh,

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 07:22 AM

G'day again Uncle Jaque,

Sorry ... I didn't read the bit that gave the dating.

BTW: Wasn't the '06 an earlier Mauser style rifle? The "Enfield" design picked up by USA was the British P14, being made in USA for Britain, in (~) .276" or 7 mm. This was always a bit too hot for the ordnance steel of the day and the Yanks had the sense to rebore it for their .30" '06 round when they adopted it as the M17 (in 1917).

My Grandad (in both WWs) never though much of the P14 - burned out barrels if you tried to use it as a real battle rifle, the way the rifle #3, mk I* excelled ... and it had a bad tendency to jam through heat or grit.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 01:01 AM

G'day again Uncle Jaque,

Not being too clear on American military rifles, I checked back on these - it strikes me that the British P13 (.276")/P14 (.303") looks very similar in spec. to the '03 Springfield (apart from the change to a peepsight, protected by those distinctive 'ears').

I wonder if its design started as an update of the Springfield (presumably to make it more suitable for mass production) so that the Americans ... when they joined in ... simply made it for their .30" '06 cartridge, on the same production lines that were already rolling it out in the thousands, for Britain.

BTW: I realised (as I sent it) that I had got my numbers back to front in the post above ... that was the Rifle #1 mk. III* to which I should have referred. We Australians had that model in both World Wars ... and they were still on issue to the Cadet Corps when I was at High School - '50s/'60s!

regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 05:47 PM

That line about the sight adjustment sure sounds like what I heard on "Gringo Pistollero" - although I seem to recall that the shot was uphill, rather than down. I tried searching for "Gringo Pistollero" on several engines, with no results. Not surprised, as this was a pretty obscure song and certainly non-PC. I'm not yet convinced that we're not talking the same song, here.

".. Wasn't the '06 an earlier Mauser style rifle?.."

The Springfield M-1903 rifle "borrowed heavily" in design from the ledgendary Mod. 98 Mauser. So much so that the US Government actually had to pay a penalty for patent infringement to the German Mauser Verkes prior to WW-I. The U.S. historically has never been above "appropriating" a good idea when it sees one, especially when it comes to ordnance. Our first flintlocks were essentially clones of the French .69 cal.Charleville, and we took "heavy inspiration" from the French in Artillery and small-arms throughout the black-powder era. After flirting with the Danes with the Krag-Jorgensen, we seemed to have taken a fancy to German technology. Good thing, too; they were really good at it! The US 90MM cannon which was used from WW-II up through VietNam (I'm not sure but what they are still in use somewhere) is little more than the notorious German 88MM with minor modifications.

"... The "Enfield" design picked up by USA was the British P14, being made in USA for Britain,..." I could look this up, but off the top of my virus-infested head, it seems that the British 7MM system was in development with the British ordnance dept. around 1912-13 in anticipation of having a problem with the Hun. This too was a development of the Mauser system, but considerably "beefed up" to handle the higher pressures of the special round. this new round was way ahead of it's time, essentially equivelent to the modern 7MM Magnum. The P-14/17 family of actions are highly desireable by Gunsmiths as the basis of custom-built high-power big-game rifles, as they are probably one of the strongest actions ever built. I sold an old '14 recently to a friend who had it re-barreled to .45-70 (since the '14 was designed to feed rimmed cartridges) and it is well known that this cartridge in such an action can be loaded up to darned near .457 Winchester Magnum ballistics; ergo; "Elephant gun"! The rear sight "ears" are ground off, a scope mounted, and they make up to a pretty slick sporting rifle.

"...in (~) .276" or 7 mm. This was always a bit too hot for the ordnance steel of the day and the Yanks had the sense to rebore it for their .30" '06 round when they adopted it as the M17 (in 1917)."

Strength of the action or quality of steel was not the issue...

Unfortunately, WW-I happened before the 7MM project really got off the ground. Not enough P-14's could be produced to justify an Empire-wide ammunition conversion, so they decided to stick with the .303 British, and Remington contracted with the Brits to produce the P-14 in .303. Before long, the Brits were dealing with Dunkirk and running out of money, so defaulted on their contract; production of the P-14 ceaced. Now along came 1917, and the U.S. realized that it could no longer sit out WW-I. Problem was, Springfield could not keep up with production demand for a World War, and National Arsenals did not have enough '03s on hand to go around. Recognizing the fact that Remington and other US manufacturers were all tooled up to crank out the P-14 and that it was a passing-fair Battle Rifle, they hit on the bright idea of converting it to the US standard .30-06 and issuing it to US Troops; Viola'; the P-17! It seems that more US "Doughboys" actually went into action with the P-17s than Springfields in WW-I.

Apparantly British soldiers referred to the P-17 erroniously as the "Springfield", since it was made in the U.S., while Doughboys were fond of calling it an "Enfield" due to it's British design and distinctive combless buttstock and "hook" pistol-grip. It was neither, really.

The reputation for "burning out barrels" your Granddad alluded to is more likely to be a function of the early "cordite" propellant and corrosive mercuric priming than any fault of the rifle. Sgt. YORK captured an entire German Company with his P-17; with it's 17" sword-bayonet, it is a formidable weapon. Somewhat heavier than the '03, it was not as popular with Infantrymen - but could hold it's own in most cases on the Battlefield or target range. The P-17 was produced at the Remington Arms facility as well as Winchester and Eddystone Arsenal.

"...Rifle #1 mk. III* ... We Australians had that model in both World Wars ... and they were still on issue to the Cadet Corps when I was at High School - '50s/'60s!

Shucks; I might have the rifle you drilled with down cellar! (pretty long shot). It is a Lithgow Arsenal 1915 SMLE No.1 Mk III. I bought it cheap as a "Drill-Purposes" demil, but with a new firing pin and extractor, it was brought back into service. It had such a "cherry" "HP" ("High Power" WW II replacement) barrel, shucks; I had to! I even put a WW-I magazine cut-off plate on it, as well as a nifty little grenade-launcher. It just so happens that an Australian WW-I hand-grenade is just the same caliber as an American 20th-Century tennis ball... and what fun that is!

The old SMLE's were not a particularly strong or stable/accurate action, but they perfomed well under battlefield conditions and were probably one of the fastest bolt-actions ever issued. They earned their reputation well.

If you want to "talk guns", drop me a PM and we can take it to another forum perhaps more appropriate to that topic, and where there are folks a lot more qualified than I to bounce it around with. There are some "political" issues around the rights of private Citizens to keep and bear arms I'd like to discuss with the Victims of police-state "disarmament" programs - like Australians - as well... but probably not here.

Later, Mate!

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: X
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 06:55 PM

You know, I never was really sure of the tittle of the tune. I was taking a shot in the dark with "Springfield Rifle". It looks like it just might be "Gringo Pistollero".

By the way, I had Ruger No. 1 in 45-70 and it was almost everything the .457 Win Mag was and a whole lot cheaper to shoot.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:17 PM

Uncle Jacque, you referred to the "Corporal's Musket" in this message (click) - but you didn't post the lyrics. Do you have them for us?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: X
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:21 PM

Just found a CD with "Gringo Pistollero" on it.

"35 Years After" By Allen Wayne Damron.

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 12:23 AM

Joe; Gosh, I thought I did a "Lyr Add" on that a year or so ago - isn't it in the archives? If not let me know & I'll post 'em again.

Banjoist; AHAH!! Suspicions confirmed! I thought there was a lot in common between the songs/s we were trying to remember! I think you'll doubly enjoy it as it features not one but two of our favorite historicly significant firearms; the '03 Springfield and "Old Slabsides the Pumpkin-Slinger" M-1911 .45! Where did you get the CD? Amizon.com? I just might have to have one. How are the other tracks on it?

I'm elated that it has at last been found - jolly good, Mate!

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: X
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 12:33 PM

Uncle Jaque,

I haven't got the recording as yet but you can get it on Allen Wayne Damron's on web. Any search engine will take you there. Thank you all for the help!

Subject: RE: Lyr/Chords Req: Springfield Rifle
From: Uncle Jaque
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 08:30 PM

It's a pleasure, as always, Seni'or Banjoist. Via Con Dios, mon Amigo!

UJ in ME