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BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?

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Murray MacLeod 28 Nov 01 - 11:46 PM
Amos 28 Nov 01 - 11:58 PM
catspaw49 29 Nov 01 - 12:10 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 29 Nov 01 - 12:10 AM
catspaw49 29 Nov 01 - 12:12 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 29 Nov 01 - 12:14 AM
Murray MacLeod 29 Nov 01 - 12:15 AM
catspaw49 29 Nov 01 - 12:24 AM
Peg 29 Nov 01 - 12:24 AM
GUEST 29 Nov 01 - 12:29 AM
GUEST,Steve 29 Nov 01 - 12:30 AM
katlaughing 29 Nov 01 - 12:31 AM
GUEST,Steve 29 Nov 01 - 12:34 AM
catspaw49 29 Nov 01 - 12:45 AM
Murray MacLeod 29 Nov 01 - 12:45 AM
Murray MacLeod 29 Nov 01 - 12:54 AM
katlaughing 29 Nov 01 - 01:21 AM
Rick Fielding 29 Nov 01 - 01:26 AM
Murray MacLeod 29 Nov 01 - 01:46 AM
GUEST,Steve (not ranger) 29 Nov 01 - 02:04 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Nov 01 - 04:26 AM
Murray MacLeod 29 Nov 01 - 06:10 AM
Wolfgang 29 Nov 01 - 06:57 AM
GUEST,Steve 29 Nov 01 - 08:41 AM
GUEST,Ohmygawd 29 Nov 01 - 09:02 AM
GUEST 29 Nov 01 - 09:14 AM
GUEST,Steve 29 Nov 01 - 09:23 AM
Jim Dixon 29 Nov 01 - 09:43 AM
SharonA 29 Nov 01 - 10:22 AM
Jack the Sailor 29 Nov 01 - 10:23 AM
Bill D 29 Nov 01 - 10:32 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 29 Nov 01 - 10:36 AM
Peg 29 Nov 01 - 10:38 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 29 Nov 01 - 11:07 AM
GUEST,Steve (still not ranger) 29 Nov 01 - 11:19 AM
Guessed 29 Nov 01 - 11:24 AM
Bill D 29 Nov 01 - 11:25 AM
catspaw49 29 Nov 01 - 11:32 AM
Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull 29 Nov 01 - 11:38 AM
GUEST 29 Nov 01 - 11:40 AM
harpgirl 29 Nov 01 - 11:53 AM
mousethief 29 Nov 01 - 11:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Nov 01 - 12:14 PM
catspaw49 29 Nov 01 - 12:20 PM
SINSULL 29 Nov 01 - 12:28 PM
Steve in Idaho 29 Nov 01 - 12:32 PM
catspaw49 29 Nov 01 - 12:33 PM
marty D 29 Nov 01 - 12:37 PM
SINSULL 29 Nov 01 - 12:38 PM
SharonA 29 Nov 01 - 12:42 PM

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Subject: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:46 PM

It has been a long time since we had any controversial threads on here, and God knows I am not one to stir things up, but I do feel there is an issue here which should be addressed..

Ever since September 11th I have pondered the question of why anyone would want to sacrifice their life for a political ideal and until now I have not come up with any satisfactory answers. However I believe that I now have a hypothesis which may explain the "martyr " phenomenon.

The best estimate we have of the incidence of homosexuality is that 10 percent of males are homosexual. Presumably this ratio is as applicable to the Arab world as it is to the Western world. Yet where do we see evidence of a Gay Liberation Front in any of the Islamic nations? Although, as anyone who has read T.E Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" will be aware, homosexuality is as common in the Arab world as it is in the West, maybe even more so.

But, in modern , ever increasingly fundamentalist, I slam , we see an intolerance of homosexuality that rivals that of Victoriam Britain, when the act of sodomy was criminalized by Statute for the first time. In Britain, until the advent of the Wolfenden Report of 1957 and the subsequent decriminalization of homosexuality, one of the most common reasons for suicide among adult males was the fear of impending prosecution as a result of having been discovered in flagrante delictu

Now, when we examine the resumés of the hijackers responsible for the atrocities of 9/11 it transpires that none of them conform to the conventional husband/ father model. There is also evidence here in South Florida that they had resisted the importunings of the hookers in Fort Lauderdale.shortly before their suicide mission. (Although they were not averse to drinking alcohol) All of which leads me to guess hypothesize, call it what you will, that these men were perhaps not of the 90 percent.

My postulate is that they were first of all arrested in their own countries for committing homosexual acts, and that through the Al Qaida network, were offered redemption and a place in Paradise by carrying out thei heinous crimes of 9/11.

Now I am aware that I do not know whether any of this is true. I am equally aware that nobody can know whether it is untrue. But , IMHO, it bears thinking about . And please note that nothing in this post is intended as homophobic.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Amos
Date: 28 Nov 01 - 11:58 PM

Suicidal fanatics from these groups are often told their families will be taken care of as a benefit of their glorious sacrifice. I have no data one way or the other on those pilots specifically though. I guess your hypothesis is as good as any without supporting data, mate -- but maybe it was bank robbery or shaving??

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:10 AM

Maybe they were victims of excessive thinking.

Geez Murray, how in the hell did you come up with that one? I mean like your records spinning but the sound is wacky, like man, have you got a warped groove or what?

Gawd, I LOVE IT!!!! Gay guys huh? Okay MurrMan........It's a theory anyway. So listen...Send me some of that shit you're smokin' huh? Just a little.....Seems to be pretty potent stuff!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:10 AM

Well I was suprised, I was not going to read this thread because I thought it would be started by a guest trying to make trouble.But I heard somewhere that gay people are much more likely to commit suicide than straight people so maybe you are right.Or maybe they had been caught flying kites wich the taliban said was illegal.I think the taliban people are crazy and I hope they make a sensible peaceful goverment in Afghanistan.I really can't see the logic in banning kite flying or listening to music, what are they supposed to do all day, just sit and pray? they are all crazy if you ask me.john


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:12 AM

Hey, send some to Amos too......He's been down a bit and had pneumonia and all that......I think he and I would both like to cop a quality buzz.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:14 AM

Send me some as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:15 AM

Hey Spaw you got it right first time, excessive thinking.

You got to admit it, it could be true. Although as Amos says there is no data and the evidence is scant and circumstantial at best.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:24 AM

Murray, did you come up with this while your wife was out of town and you were eating the half cooked pork? I gotta' go check all the possible symptoms of Trichinosis...........

Truth be told, you might have the exact reason and you could be completely out in deep roving right field. The thought is worthy because the thing we have always done least well is to understand the thinking of those that we are fighting.......witness the Bushido code of the Samurai and how we thought the Kamikaze were nuts. Trying to understand may be fraught with perils of it's own, but writing off that which we don't understand has a guaranteed peril built in.

HOWEVER, all that aside, I will continue to kid you about this one!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Peg
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:24 AM

Gays are more likely to commit suicide? If this is true (I would want to see some sort of statistics which bear thisout) then no doubt it is because of the prejudice they face; this would be especially true of gay teenagers...who have committed suicide in appalling proportions in recent years.

BTW I think that theory, while, well, interesting for its novelty, is a bit ridiculous...

In addition to being evil they're also gay? Gee that's useful information.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:29 AM

Many years ago I worked as a property claims adjuster. I went to fire scenes with a seasoned pro. He would ask the building managers whether gay males lived in the building. Shocked me. Then he said there is a strong correlation between arson and homosexuality. Make of it what you will.

Second, I read in the New York Times that a great number of the Al Qaeda recruits are young males who have been economically frustrated from achieving their marital goals.

Third, the theory of yours has no support, Mr. MacLeod, but I sure admire your balls in posing it. (Well, not your balls, per se. . . . )

Dan No Last Name


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:30 AM

This is ridiculous. People who are gay and commit suicide because their cultures reject homosexuality are one thing. These guys did not commit suicide to end their lives. Suicide was incidental to what they did--a necessary part, but not the goal of their actions. If fundamentalist Islam claimed they were damned because of homosexuality, then a martyrdom of this sort wouldn't save them anyway.

The reason these guys were not family men is that terrorist networks usually recruit non-family men. In fact, in an article in this month's Atlantic, the former head of Arafat's crack terrorist squads explained what they did to eliminate their own network before it hurt the cause: they got a bunch of attractive, unmarried Palestinian women and held mixers until their former suicide bombers were all married. It is well-recognized in the terrorist world that people with wives and kids won't blow themselves up.

I'm not saying none of these men were gay. But I am saying that there's no evidence at all that can't be more easily explained by other means.

And just SAYING something isn't homophobic doesn't make it so. To claim that something about Islamic homosexuals makes them willing to kill tens of thousands of people just to end their own suffering certainly isn't flattering. Remember, bigots don't INTEND to be bigots.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:31 AM

As well, do you think there are no gay prostitutes, Murray? Just because they didn't succumb to prossies in FL doesn't mean they were not hetero. Do you seek out prossies because you are, I assume, hetero? No offense intended, just trying to screw with your logic.:-)

Here's another one for you, just as sportpeople are told to lay off the sex before a big event, so do "warriors," in some societies, believe it is best not expend energy that way before a battle.

There are so many other explanations which would be much closer to the truth, IMO, I think Spaw's gotcha on this one...share that joint, eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:34 AM

Oops. Just realized that I described Arafat's troops as "former suicide bombers." Of course, I meant the pool of people formerly willing to be used as suicide bombers. No former suicide bomber's around to tell the tale.

Dan--maybe the terrorists admired Murray's balls, too ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:45 AM

Well Dan, he is a Scot and now I understand that the Kilt Pin isn't used for holding the kilt together, so perhaps his balls were readily accesible for admiration.........or maybe not...........Or maybe they got a really good gander at them and that's why they committed suicide.

Pass the bong please.........

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:45 AM

It is well-recognized in the terrorist world that people with wives and kids won't blow themselves up.

First of all, I have to ask if you are Ranger Steve, who is a Mudcat member. If you are then I respect your opinions, I have read your previous postings. If you are not, how would you know about the terrorist world?

Nowhere in my post is there any trace of homophobia, I was trying genuinely to come up with a believable reason for an incomprehensible act.

And until someone comes up with evidence to the contrary, I will believe that my hypothesis is valid.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:54 AM

Kat, I am sorry to disillusion you ,but traditionally, it has always been the martial custom to get laid before you get slayed. I have no evidence from the rent boys of Florida, I have to admit, but perhaps I can persuade one of the reporters from the "New Times" to investigate.

Meanwhile, let me reiterate that this is not a honopobic thread, I am postulating a hypothesis which I consider worthy of consideration.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:21 AM

Murray, maybe in the some of the Western world, but not so among some Asian and Native American cultures. Spilling a man's seed before battle can cause a depletion of his power and energy according to some belief systems.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:26 AM

I always figured I'd spill a lot less seed if I had a bigger container.

anon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 01:46 AM

Kat, far be it from me to instigate any thread creep, but it has never been my experience that spilling of my seed has caused any diminution of my powers (which are fragile at best, granted)

Au contraire, the early morning seed dispersion has invariably caused a resurgence of vitality which could not have been accomplished ny any other means.

Pace the practitioners of Tantric sex ......

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve (not ranger)
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 02:04 AM

I'm not ranger steve, but I am a member. Some weeks ago I updated my web software, and my cookie vanished with the old stuff.

How would I know about the terrorist world? How would YOU know about homosexuality and suicide rate? I presume in the same way: by reading about it and studying it. I mentioned the article in the Atlantic, which is one place you can go to. Abu Iyad, former head of Black September (Arafat's fanatical fighters), explains that the men in Black September had no real reason to live rather than die: they were young, unmarried, without good jobs or prospects. As soon as they married these men off, they ceased to want to take part in terrorist activity. Iyad even tested them by offering them missions. Wihout exception, they refused.

One more thing: without exception, the Black September members fell in love and married. It is reasonable to assume, then, that most of them were not gay.

If you imagine that Al Quaeda is unaware of the Black September case, fine. But given the way the world of Islamic terror organizations is laid out--with the same people being members of organizations in different countries throughout the Middle East--it's very unlikely. Therefore, this experiment alone is enough to tell Bin Laden that the people he needs to seek out for suicide missions are young, unmarried men.

Once again, the only evidence you've presented is that they're young, unmarried men (which is explained by the above) that they stayed away from American hookers (hardly surprising for Islamic fundamentalist fanatics), and that gay men have a high suicide rate. But this was not primarily suicide, it was primarily genocide. If I wanted to kill myself, I would NOT do it this way, and neither would you, I trust.

Therefore, I just don't see any evidence of homosexuality. As to the remarks being homophobic, it's an open question whether suggesting that something about gay men makes them more likely than straight men to kill 10,000 people is homophobic. I think many people would say it is, regardless of your intentions. I understand that you don't mean to give offense, and I, not being gay, don't personally take offense. But I have plenty of gay friends who would!

And BTW, Kat is right. In many cultures it is taboo to have sex before battle. I do not know what Afghani or Arab customs are in this regard.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 04:26 AM

As you say, it might be true. Or they might have been reptilian aliens from the planet Zog who were beamed off the planes just before they crashed. Covers the known facts just as well.

But I can't see why there's any need to think up fancy explanations. Some people who believe strongly enough in a cause have always been willing to die for it, and normally they've been quite willing to kill for it as well. "Give me liberty or give me death". And having a partner and a family back home is a factor that always makes people less available to volunteer for any kind of suicide mission. (And that would apply regardless of the sex of the partner.)

Actually there was a report that, based on the presence or absence of goodbye notes and such, it could be that only the actual people who piloted the planes knew it was a suicide hijacking. Though of course that might have been some kind of cunning leak by the authorities designed to have some kind of propaganda effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:10 AM

Steve, my observations about the suicide rate among gay men (or, more accurately, the incidence of homosexuality among suicides) referred to the climate of opinion in Britain prior to the decriminalization of homosexuality, a climate which finds its parallel in the Islamic world today. Once again, I made no suggestion that in the normal course of events gay men are more likely than straight men to commit suicide. Being gay is not the issue here, being marginalized is.

Kevin writes " it could be that only the actual people who piloted the planes knew it was a suicide hijacking." Since there is no evidence that their carry-on luggage included parachutes, I have some difficulty in believing this.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 06:57 AM

The current status of the research with homosexuals and suicide confirms that they represent a high risk group, but the motives, causality and predictability of future self injuries remains as enigmatic as with other identified higher risk populations.

Copied and pasted from here.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 08:41 AM

Murray,

I understand what you're saying about marginalization causing higher suicide rates, but I reiterate that these people obviously did not do what they did in order to end their own suffering. To do that, one might jump off the WTC, but not run a plane into it! MY point is that there isn't much evidence that gay men have a higher rate of being violent sociopaths, which would be a better measure of whether they are likely to do something like this. And to suggest that gay men are more likely to be sociopaths, in the absence of evidence, would strike many as homophobic.

I don't understand your point about parachutes. Your own original point seemed to be that the hijackers committed suicide and therefore might come from a high-stress group such as gay men. Kevin's was that among the hijackers, perhaps only the pilots knew what the destination of the planes was. The others may have thought they were going to land somewhere. I agree this isn't THAT likely, but they would not have needed parachutes in this scenario.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Ohmygawd
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:02 AM

You do seem to have some deep seated sexual identity problems Murray.

First the "idea" that everyone should identify themselves by gender. Then the "idea" that the hijackers were gay because they wouldn't conform to your blinkered idea of red blooded American manhood.

Getting laid before slayed? Are you living in an imaginary Ronald Reagan world of male sexual values circa 1938? I'm sorry, I take that back--it is too insulting to my father and grandfather.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:14 AM

I guess the hijackers (young, single men willing to die for a cause) have a lot in common with the young, single men willing to die for a cause currently serving in the US armed forces.

There is a reason why conscription laws require the military only take young, impressionable men (preferably under 20 and right out of high school). They are easier to convince that the cause is actually worth dying for, when it usually isn't.

Buy a clue, folks. Military minds all think alike, be they American, Arab, or any other nationality or religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:23 AM

I repectfully disagree with Guest on this. "The military minds" of many of the current and former UK & US soldiers on mudcat would never have conceived of bombing something like the WTC. I don't think you can call OBL's mind a military one in any case.

Granted, we don't have to jump on the bandwagon to support current actions, but don't demonize everyone who's ever fought in a war, either...

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 09:43 AM

Murray's speculation may be a bit far-fetched, but I am unwilling to brand him a homophobe on that basis. Many a wild speculation has led to fruitful (so to speak) research. To wit:

Sodomy and the Pirate Tradition : English Sea Rovers in the Seventeenth-Century Caribbean (The link goes to amazon.com) According to one reviewer, "If you've ever wondered exactly what to do with a drunken sailor, this is the book for you." And here is the NYU Press advertisement for this book, and here is a review of same.

By the way, following up links from those pages led to some fascinating stuff, for example:

Islamic Homosexualities : Culture, History, and Literature

Sex Longing & Not Belonging : A Gay Muslim's Quest for Love & Meaning


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:22 AM

Steve (not Ranger) says: "One more thing: without exception, the Black September members fell in love and married. It is reasonable to assume, then, that most of them were not gay."

Hold on thar! Gay men have been known to marry and have children, and even to repress their desire to have sex with other men, so I think it's a faulty assumption to say that "most" of these men weren't gay. I don't know if it's possible for a totally homosexual man to fall in love with a woman, but I also take issue with your assumption that these men fell in love at all. All we know is that they chose female partners and married them. My question is: did they do this of their own free will (which might indicate that at least some of them may have "fallen in love"), or were they ordered to do so, regardless of their sexual orientation?


Murray: I agree with those who say that your theory is no more or less posible than any other. Indeed, suicide was not the primary goal of the 9/11 mission, and I suspect the terrorists were driven more by their hatred for America than by the desire for a place in their Paradise for gays.

We do know that at least one of the hijackers was heterosexual, from the farewell letter he wrote to his girlfriend in Germany that was intercepted by the government due to a mistake in the address. This also contradicts the assumption that all of the hijackers were romantically unattached.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:23 AM

Hi Murray,

I don't know if T.E Lawrence's "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" is any indication of the prevalence of homosexuality in the muslim world. For one thing the experiences described in the book were confined to the Arabian Peninsula during WWI, Also the author's descriptions of the homosexuals in the book was so flowery as to indicate, to me at least, that he was biased in their favour.

Interestingly, I have often thought of "Seven Pillars of Wisdom" since September 11, I read it earlier this year. I've been trying to reconcile the values of the Arab "Freedom fighters" of the book with those of Al Qaida. I also wondered if the Saud family were the heroes that Lawrence made them out to be. Certianly their political savy has carried on to this day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:32 AM

"And until someone comes up with evidence to the contrary, I will believe that my hypothesis is valid. "

"Pluritas non est ponenda sine necessitate"
William of Occam


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:36 AM

I don't think this is a good theory at all, just because you don't want to have sex with a prostitute does not mean that you are gay.Murray your paragraph about the other terrorists not taking parachutes does not make sense at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Peg
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 10:38 AM

I can't agree that the fact that some guy wrote a letter to his sweetheart automatically makes him heterosexual; see comments above that there are plenty of homosexuals who marry women and father children.

I do agree the original thesis is homophobic...and faulty for the reasons many others reiterate here. The desire to kill oneself being more prevalent among gays (ifindeed this is true) does NOT explain the willingness of these men to kill thousands of others in their quest to end their own lives.

I also agree that just saying you are not being homophobic, does not mean you are not being homophobic...anymore than writing a letter to your sweetheart unequivocally makes you a straight man...


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:07 AM

Using your 10% theory, I guess that means that 10% of Mudcatters are gay, too. Or are we talking about the other people?

Jerry


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST,Steve (still not ranger)
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:19 AM

In response to SharonA,

according to Abu Iyad, the men were neither ordered nor forced to marry. If they had been, the experiment would not have worked; being forced to live a lie with a family one did not love would still not constitute being given something to live for. And it is precisely because these men would not follow every order Arafat or Iyad gave that Iyad needed to marry them off; otherwise, a simple command of "don't commit any more violence" would have sufficed. Thus, ordering them to marry would not have worked.

It is true, of course, that gay men have been known to marry and have kids. But my point was that, since there was a 100% marriage rate among these guys, it's unlikely that they were predominantly gay. After all, most gay men do not get married and have kids. However, here I will admit ignorance of Palestinian culture; it may be that there, most gay men do marry and have kids.

My point was simply this: the terrorists being unmarried men was probably more a function of the ways in which terrorists are recruited than of their sexual orientation. There is simply no evidence that they were gay, and some evidence (as SharonA points out) that at least one of them was not.

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Guessed
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:24 AM

I question the 10% figure Murray
It is reckoned that figure is nearly true of London (anecdotal but which suburbs?). But then so it is with average IQ. It is higher in London. The figures get skewed by the halo effect. Head offices and theatres (& media) abound in capital cities which explains some of the skewed figures. I have seen figures for homosexuality %'s for UK as a whole and it is a lot less than 10% even allowing for parochialism and an obvious wish for anonymity. Culture will only play a small part in it.
some terrorist being gay? statistically is inevitable.
California would fit the bill on most counts, it is the film capital and silicon valley IS because of the brains coagulating there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:25 AM

The real lure of theories like this is that it is easy to make them internally consistent,,,,you adopt one false premise, and anything follows.

David Hume had this amazing philosophical treatise that had a form of solipism at it's core, but in a small aside in some footnote, he once admitted that he found it difficult to treat his own thesis seriously in daily life......Gay terrorists is even easier to posit and accept, but suffers from the same logical flaw as Hume was contending with..**unless** we get some corroborating evidence that it played some part in the lives of 'some' of the hijackers.

Theories are starting places for investigating, not for 'believing'.

Now, let me outline for you my thesis that Microsoft is just a front for the Tri-Lateral Commission, and is supported by Aliens which have collected genetic material from Elvis and Marilyn Monroe and is planning to clone them and use the wilds of Afganistan as their base for world domination,,,


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:32 AM

Well Bill, I see Murray has already sent you some of that shit he's smokin'........and I even asked first! can you spare maybe a bowl full?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:38 AM

I heard somewhere that Elvis works in a petrol station in Bradford, he was fed up of being famous and wanted a quiet life.This must be true because it was in The Sun, a very well respected brittish newspaper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:40 AM

I personally can see NO link to what happened on september 11th and gays? I am hearing you say that gays commit suicide 'more' than other groups in society. But stop and think what your saying. When you commit suicide your purpose is to kill YOURSELF as you are DESPERATE. Would you really want to plan it for 10 or more years?

If you wanted to commit suicide because you may be 'gay' you would not link yourself to one of the biggest terrorist organisations and drive a plane full of people into the twin towers, in a HIGHLY PLANNED coreographed plan to hit the twin towers. You would probably jump of a bridge or crash your car, wouldn't you?

Obiouly know one knows if they were or weren't but at the end of the day does it REALLY matter. You say it was not a hoemophobic post but the post is in essence having a dig at gay people seeing and questioning that to be gay may be a reason why they did it. gay people are a vulnerable minority in society that alreay suffer from our society. The muslims are already suffereing from racial abuse linked to the war, LETS NOT ADD ANOTHER GROUP TO THAT LIST.

un-named


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:53 AM

Murray , you are being most provocative, but I do respect your desire to start a controversial thread. If we do not as a group devolve into flaming we will have demonstrated some more intellectual evolution as a species, at least here at Mudcat!!!! I might point out that if they wanted to be homosexual and not die they could just live in this country and be offered a little more freedom than in Islamic countries.

The most powerful motivator is most likely their willingness to die for Islam. This is cultivated by the segregation and brainwashing of male children in Islam, not by homosexuality, and the implicit and explicit notions that women are inferior, unclean, temptresses, unwothy of education, etc. The whole cultural belief system about males and females is sick!!!!! If anything, much of the homosexuality to be discovered in these Islamic countries is probably the result of cultural and religious practices.

We don't really know why about ten percent of our species is homosexual despite the fact that since their reproductive rate is lower, logically as a behavior it might disappear. Perhaps it allows heterosexual behavior to persist as dominant behavior from a natural selection point of view, that is, it is in support of heterosexual reproduction. With that hypothesis, if you are straight you should thank a gay person!


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 11:59 AM

harpgirl, your post reminds me of the thing that Bob Bennett puts in his signature:

As children we were taught that sex is dirty and filthy and sinful and wrong, and should be saved for the one we love the most. No wonder we're so messed up!

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:14 PM

Most hijackings have involved diverting a plane to another airfield somewhere, either as a way of getting there for the hijackers (eg "take me to Havana", or Miami), or as some kind of bargaining process, with the plane and the passengers as hostages.

The idea of using a hijacked plane as a guided missile doesn't seem to have come up before September 11th. There could well have been advantages if the people who had the job of keeping the passengers under control thought that this was just a normal hijacking. If you are telling people to keep quiet, and reassuring them that if they keep quiet they'll be all right, you are much more likely to be convincing if you actually believe that to be true.

If they were working on a need-to-know basis, the only people who needed to know about the actual destination of the planes would have been the pilots.

Perhaps Murray Macleod thinks the IRA hunger strikers were probably gay?


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:20 PM

Well Mac, I can see how they probably weren't too happy about not eating.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:28 PM

Murray - This has the makings of a best seller. Turn this thread into 12 Chapters and I will be reading a review in the NY Times Review of Books. Good Luck, Mary


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:32 PM

I'm really confused - I thought the lead line asked if the hijackers were gay. Gay being Happy and Content? Perhaps my definition is anachronistic but to pluralise the term would, to me, imply homosexuality.

So if they were happy and content it would further set the field in motion for the theory that flying a plane into a building was a thing that would permit contentment with the situation. Meaning that they were happy campers and heading for the afterlife with blessings from their God.

It is some really good stuff Spaw - too bad you don't get any -

Steve


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:33 PM

But what would you call it? "Chicken Crap for the Soles"???

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: marty D
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:37 PM

Keep in mind that statistics have shown that 99% of prison inmates under 5'8" will engage in homosexual behaviour if their cell-mate is over 6' tall and in a romantic mood. The other 1% weren't available to fill in the forms.

marty


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:38 PM

"I'm OK; You're Not"


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Subject: RE: BS: Were the 9/11 Hijackers Gay?
From: SharonA
Date: 29 Nov 01 - 12:42 PM

Peg: You're right; I contradicted myself! My impression, though, is that if the Taliban terrorist was willing to risk sending a farewell letter from the US to his girlfriend in Germany, passion for her must have clouded his better judgment (since he exposed her identity and location!).

McGrath: There was a cockpit recording from one of the jets (I forget which) wherein a Taliban terrorist was making a false announcement to passengers that they would be landing somewhere... I wish I could remember the exact quote. Can anyone provide it?


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